Is pre-tribulation rapture a doctrine of demons?

[Randy Kluth]

I would argue that if we follow the words of the text, we have a very credible timeline, supported entirely from the plain wording of the text.
Parathetical portions are clearly delineated. Prophetic narrative is distinct from symbols, and symbols are defined by the Bible.

John indicates, from vision to vision, that 1st one thing is seen, and then another thing is seen. This does not indicate that the things he sees are taking place one after another! He is just seeing visions one after another! For all we know he has seen two visions, one after another, that describe the same event in two different ways! There is no chronology involved at all! The character of these series of visions is to avoid a set chronology or sequence. We know there is a definite 3.5 year period in which the Beast reigns. But overall, we don't have much of a time frame or sequence other than the knowledge that the Beast reigns first, and then the wrath of God falls on him at the end.

The whole vision is full of symbolism, but it doesn't matter because you're claiming each symbolic vision takes place in chronological sequence, right? You already admit that there are prolepses and flashbacks. That clearly indicates that at least those visions are out of chronological sequence in the book. But I would go farther and say that many of the visions have a non-chronological character. For example, the 6th seal is opened as an indication the Day of Christ is coming. It is a prolepsis. And yet it is given as part of a narrative leading up to further details of the same event. The fact he gets more visions after the 6th seal does not mean there are more than one day of Christ's wrath. Rather, it just means more visions come to add more detail.

You say, we clearly don't have that, we obviously don't have that, these cannot take place in a chronlogical timeline.
But as I read it, of course they take place in the sequence we are told.
The seals are opened, then the trumpets are sounded, then the bowls are emptied.

The visions are recounted in chronological sequence because John begins with the 1st vision and treats each vision in sequence. But this does not mean the events they point to take place in chronological sequence. You are mistaking, I think, the words that regard the passing of the vision, from sequence to sequence, with a chronological sequence assumed to be taking place between the events they point to.

Wording relates to the actions themselves within the prophetic narrative.
Revelation 8
1 And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2 And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3 And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.

After the 7th seal is opened, 7 angels are given 7 trumpets. The first sounds, and something happens. The second sounds, and something happens. In that sequence, otherwise, how would we know it's NOT that sequence? If that is what is presented?

This is merely an account of a vision--not the events they point to! Opening the 7th seal is symbolic of a vision about to be unveiled. The seal being opened does not represent an event itself. The events are represented by the trumpets. Again, the fact there are 7 that are treated consecutively does not indicate the events they describe take place consecutively. The fact there are 7 in number only indicates they are a set, and they in forming a unit likely take place all about the same time.

It was different with the 10 plagues of Egypt, which took place one after another in sequence. But that was actual history. These visions of John were not visions indicating a timeline of history. Rather, they were symbolic visions showing John, one after another, what the Church should know when coming up against opposition and persecution. There is no thought to lining them up in chronological sequence.

 

[Enoch111]

I personally think that the rapture of the church will occur during the great earthquake of the Gog/Magog invasion.

Since the battle of Gog and Magog occurs after the Millennium, this would be really stretching it. Evidently you are not too well acquainted with this matter.

 

[Enoch111]

But the doctrine is definitely not inspired by God.

That is a rather bold statement based upon nothing but your opinion. Evidently you have swallowed all the negative propaganda hook, line, and sinker. Since the Lord Jesus Christ Himself revealed the Pre-Tribulation Rapture to His apostles, one could definitely say that it was not only inspired by God, but was a part of God's plan of salvation from the very beginning.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

And I would add that given the basis by which Jesus will proclaim who are the righteous and who are the wicked when He returns, this will not include the church.

Much love!

Also we can know the time given that Gods wrath has only two outpourings.

1. HIs general wrath against unbelievers and sin as said in John 3:36
2. The wrath of God as declared to be the time of Jacobs trouble and in REv. The wrath of the lamb. Never is the lake of fire called teh wrath of God, but the 70 th week is! And as Paul said we are to be delivered from the wrath to come in Thess.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No I didn't you just want to think I did. You're the one siding with Satan, when he said Eve wouldn't die, if she ate The forbidden fruit.The persons who were named Adam and Eve, died. They didn't continue existing in another form in another plain of existence, that would mean they're still alive somewhere, I definitely don't believe that, they're dead just as I said she would.

Well as a good JW yes you would say they are dead-but the Bible says differently in many many verses.

Their body is dead but their souls and spirit are with god or in the place of torments awaiting final deliverance to teh lake of fire- where as it is written by God, the smoke of their torture rises forever and ever.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Since the battle of Gog and Magog occurs after the Millennium, this would be really stretching it. Evidently you are not too well acquainted with this matter.

Actually what you call the Gog/Magog invasion after the millennium is a different battle than the one Ezekiel prophecies about!

The purposes, cast of characters and action by god are vastly different.

Also in Ezekiel they are burying the dead for seven months and Israel hires people to flag bodies found after that. You think that will occur in eternity?

Also in the Ezekiel invasion only certain nations are involved in invading Israel while in Revelations they are gathered from the four corners of the earth?

In Ezekiel, Israel burns the weapons of war for fuel for 7 years. You think they need to do that in the new heaven and new eath seeing as after the Rev. invasion God obliterates the present creation and makes it all new?

There are also many more differences between the two as to cause one to conclude they must be separate events. Just because the terms Gog and Magog are used- does not mandate they are the same event.

 

[Davy]

This is wrong!
the church does not have an earthly but a heavenly home.

That was John Darby's idea, back in the 1830's in Great Britain. You ought to research the pre-trib rapture theory from men, because he and others in Britain in the 1830's were the first ones to preach a pre-trib rapture theory in a Church. Before that, for over 1800 years, the Christian Church believed in a post-trib coming of Christ Jesus. And per Zechariah 14, Christ's feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives east of Jerusalem, ON EARTH, when He comes with His saints, as written there. That means Darby went directly against... the Scriptures with his theory.

John 14
King James Version

14 Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.

2 In my Father's house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.

3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Jesus is preparing a place in heaven for us. NOt to
"catch us up" and immediately land us back on earth!

Boy, how you pre-trib folks love to quote that John 14 Scripture when you don't even understand it!

When Jesus said He will "come again", how is that written of in the rest of His Word? I just showed you, from Zechariah 14 on the "day of the Lord". Acts 1 is another witness that He will come 'in like manner' as His disciples saw Him go into Heaven.

And even the 1 Thess.4 Scripture, you don't understand, because Paul says there Jesus does the gathering of His saints when He DESCENDS FROM HEAVEN.

So let's see, Jesus DESCENDS bringing the asleep saints with Him when He comes...

Then the saints still alive on earth are "caught up" to Him and them in the "air", which is actually pointing to their being changed at the twinkling of an eye on the "last trump" Paul taught in 1 Corinthians 15:50-51...

And then Jesus takes His Church with Him to the Mount of Olives, east of Jerusalem, and His feet touch down upon the Mount of Olives!


So you... are the one FALSELY pushing a doctrine of men called the Pre-tribulational Rapture theory. I'm the one staying with God's written Word.

 

[Davy]

If this were true, it would include the implicit teaching of Israel's rejection of the offered Kingdom, said offer even being repeated by Peter following Jesus' ascension into heaven.

All one need do is READ and HEED what Jesus said...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

I guess you would look foolish reading that at a pulpit in a Pre-trib Rapture church, now wouldn't you? You definitely would... to those in that kind of church that bother to bring a Bible with them and read it for themselves. The rest would be prepared like you to worship the coming false Messiah in our near future.

 

[Truther]

No I didn't you just want to think I did. You're the one siding with Satan, when he said Eve wouldn't die, if she ate The forbidden fruit.The persons who were named Adam and Eve, died. They didn't continue existing in another form in another plain of existence, that would mean they're still alive somewhere, I definitely don't believe that, they're dead just as I said she would.

Is this siding with satan or opposing the Watchtower(satan)....


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Well as a good JW yes you would say they are dead-but the Bible says differently in many many verses.

Their body is dead but their souls and spirit are with god or in the place of torments awaiting final deliverance to teh lake of fire- where as it is written by God, the smoke of their torture rises forever and ever.

Do you care what the scriptures say? The scriptures don't say we have souls, the scriptures say we are souls, do you understand the difference? You and others can say that a person doesn't die, but they do. Those who believe that death is just a doorway to another plain of existence are those who don't believe a person dies. You are calling God a liar just as the serpent did when it told Eve she wouldn't die.

 

[marks]

In John's time, he is saying he sees each thing in sequence. But what he saw could conceivably be the same thing told in 3 different ways.

How would you ever know?

I'm saying, that if the Scriptures themself tell us about timing, that's what it tells us.

Revelation 6:1-14
1) And I saw when the Lamb opened one of the seals, and I heard, as it were the noise of thunder, one of the four beasts saying, Come and see.
2) And I saw, and behold a white horse: and he that sat on him had a bow; and a crown was given unto him: and he went forth conquering, and to conquer.
3) And when he had opened the second seal, I heard the second beast say, Come and see.
4) And there went out another horse that was red: and power was given to him that sat thereon to take peace from the earth, and that they should kill one another: and there was given unto him a great sword.
5) And when he had opened the third seal, I heard the third beast say, Come and see. And I beheld, and lo a black horse; and he that sat on him had a pair of balances in his hand.
6) And I heard a voice in the midst of the four beasts say, A measure of wheat for a penny, and three measures of barley for a penny; and see thou hurt not the oil and the wine.
7) And when he had opened the fourth seal, I heard the voice of the fourth beast say, Come and see.
8) And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.
9) And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10) And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11) And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
12) And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;
13) And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.
14) And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

Let's start simple.

Does this passage show seals opened one after another, or is there some other sequence?

Could Jesus be actually opening the 5th seal, and then the 2nd seal, and then the 4th seal, for instance? I've heard people suggest views like that.

I would read it as, first the 1st seal, then the 2nd, then the 3rd, like that, because this is the apparent prophetic narrative. The mere numbering of the seals sets them in the sequence of that numbering.

Would you agree with this?

Much love!

 

[marks]

John indicates, from vision to vision, that 1st one thing is seen, and then another thing is seen. This does not indicate that the things he sees are taking place one after another! He is just seeing visions one after another! For all we know he has seen two visions, one after another, that describe the same event in two different ways! There is no chronology involved at all!

I completely disagree.

Revelation 8
1) And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
2) And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
3) And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
4) And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand.
5) And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
6) And the seven angels which had the seven trumpets prepared themselves to sound.

Again, as I read this as a prophetic narrative, a foretelling of what will be, it's laid out simply, almost like bullet points.

And when he had opened the 7th seal, silence for 1/2 hour.
And 7 angels are given 7 trumpets.
And another angel cast his censer.
And the 7 angels prepared to sound.

If there is a sequence given, I assert it is this very sequence. The conjoining words show this to me.

If there is another sequence, what is it? Where is it?

Let's look as another example.

Revelation 11:3-14
3) And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
4) These are the two olive trees, and the two candlesticks standing before the God of the earth.
5) And if any man will hurt them, fire proceedeth out of their mouth, and devoureth their enemies: and if any man will hurt them, he must in this manner be killed.
6) These have power to shut heaven, that it rain not in the days of their prophecy: and have power over waters to turn them to blood, and to smite the earth with all plagues, as often as they will.
7) And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them.

Power is given to God's 2 witnesses for 1260 days, or, 3.5 years of 360 days, or, 42 months of 30 days. During that time no one can harm them.

Revelation 13:4-7
4) And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5) And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6) And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7) And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nations.

The dragon receives power for 42 months to overcome the holy ones.

Ergo,

The 2 witnesses prophecy for 42 months, untouchable, then, the beast receives power 42 months, and overcomes them. So we can know the 2 witnesses prophecy the first half of the week, the beast receives power the second half.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Since the battle of Gog and Magog occurs after the Millennium, this would be really stretching it. Evidently you are not too well acquainted with this matter.

Is that evident to you?

You realize that Gog is a prince of darkness, right? And Magog is the land he is prince over?

Did you want to talk about the timing of Ezekiel 38 and 39? Which describe the Gog/Magog invasion of Israel, followed 7 years later by what we like to call Armageddon.

Doug Hamp has an interesting idea about this, that armageddon should be understood as Greek transliteration of three Hebrew words meaning "the valley of judgment of sheaves".

Just like the red sea. Jesus sets foot on the Mount of Olives, and it splits in two, leaving a large valley. They are to flee through that valley. I think the beasts armies will chase them, into the winepress of God's wrath. And a river of blood will flow out when that mountain closes back upon them.

Doug does a pretty good write up here:

https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&rct...re-is-it.pdf&usg=AOvVaw0Md4UJaOocknpwgngkD17_

But I digress.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Just because the terms Gog and Magog are used- does not mandate they are the same event.

The same player, Gog, a prince, like the prince of Persia or the prince of Greece. Gog is the prince of Magog, who appears at the end of this age, and at the end of the next, with people under him, the enemies of God, Magog.

Much love!

 

[marks]

All one need do is READ and HEED what Jesus said...

Matt 24:29-31
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.
KJV

Mark 13:24-27
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.
27 And then shall he send his angels, and shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from the uttermost part of the earth to the uttermost part of heaven.
KJV

I guess you would look foolish reading that at a pulpit in a Pre-trib Rapture church, now wouldn't you? You definitely would... to those in that kind of church that bother to bring a Bible with them and read it for themselves. The rest would be prepared like you to worship the coming false Messiah in our near future.

What about the should make me look foolish? If we teach it for exactly what it says, the way language was used at the time this was spoken, there is no ambiguity.

Jesus will come just as He said He would, of course!

After the tribulation Jesus will come to earth, and gather the chosen people, then the nations to be judged. The nations will be both righteous and wicked. Jews and Gentiles. The Chosen and the Nations.

Much love!

 

[marks]

The rest would be prepared like you to worship the coming false Messiah in our near future.

On this part, I think you're a bit in violation of the rules of this site, don't you?

Much love!

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Is this siding with satan or opposing the Watchtower(satan)....


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

It wasn't the watchtower that inspired a man to write, "YOU positively will not die," to Eve. It was God's Holy Spirit that inspired a man to write that. The persons known as, Adam and Eve died. Both persons are dead. I haven't found in scripture where it's written that it's only the body that dies. The person dies, not just the body.

 

[Mantis]

Hi Mantis,

Do you have any specific questions about pre-trib rapture?

Much love!

No nothing in particular. I am just soaking up all of the views and going from there.

 

[Truther]

It wasn't the watchtower that inspired a man to write, "YOU positively will not die," to Eve. It was God's Holy Spirit that inspired a man to write that. The persons known as, Adam and Eve died. Both persons are dead. I haven't found in scripture where it's written that it's only the body that dies. The person dies, not just the body.

We are not Adam and Eve, Barney.

Did you know that our new Father is the last Adam, and that the last Adam is our resurrect-er?

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

We are not Adam and Eve, Barney.

Did you know that our new Father is the last Adam, and that the last Adam is our resurrect-er?

Did you know that all the persons who have lived since Adam and Eve have died and are still dead and that they are only in the memory of God and won't exist again until the resurrection?