Is Reincarnation baloney?

[Waiting on him]

I'll reply to you and @marks at once--



Physical resurrection isn't likely what you might imagine it to be. The scriptural accounts provide all the detail you need if you believe them, and if you understand what he taught. What did he teach?

He taught that his spirit-- the holy spirit of God (is spirit-- for clarity) would reside in us. That we would be the body of Christ-- the temple or tent of the spirit of God. As far as physical resurrection goes, that's it. His spirit (spirit) dwelling in (physical) us-- the members of His body. A kingdom within. It's explained very clearly in John 17, and as far as resurrection or reincarnation goes (to use that loaded word) Jesus calls it "regeneration." (Matt 19)

Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


'Thus it stands written that the Christ would suffer and would rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.'

It is the spirit, not the body that rises. (John 6)

'Does this cause you to be offended? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascending where he was before? The Spirit is the one who gives life; human nature is of no help! The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.'

I have one other thing I hope you’ll consider, when Stephen is being stoned to death it’s recorded he looks up and sees Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father.

Is it Saul he sees, Saul is standing there consenting to his death.

My wife shared this with me the other day. I believe this has to be a gift from God.

 

[marks]

I’m not really sure what you’re stating here marks. Are your saying there is a flesh Jesus in heaven ?

I'm saying Jesus rose bodily from the dead. You can touch Him, feel His flesh and bone. He can eat, pick up things, all of that.

Am I saying there is a flesh Jesus in heaven? No I am not. I'm saying that anyone who says Jesus didn't come in flesh (perfect tense = remains so) is antichrist. OR more to the point, John said that, not me. I'm pointing to it.

Much love!

 

[Wrangler]

It’s interesting to me that the Jews knew exactly what the scriptures said, but it took the teachings of Christ to explain what they mean.

I think that is a point our new Jewish friend in here is going against.

 

[Wrangler]

Sounds like a "no".

It sure does.

I’ve learned that the truth is simple. His ‘answer’ to this simple question was not.

A reincarnationist, he cannot accept Samuel came back from the dead in the form of his one and only carnation. So, he invents this elaborate ruse, attempting to confuse the issue with us sharing the Spirit of God.

 

[Mr E]

It sure does.

I’ve learned that the truth is simple. His ‘answer’ to this simple question was not.

A reincarnationist, he cannot accept Samuel came back from the dead in the form of his one and only carnation. So, he invents this elaborate ruse, attempting to confuse the issue with us sharing the Spirit of God.

Got it..... You think they called up the spirit of Samuel (as scripture says) but the physical Samuel showed up (not according to scripture).

Saul asks 'What do you see?" She replies.... 'an elohim.'

 

[Wrangler]

Got it..... You think they called up the spirit of Samuel (as scripture says) but the physical Samuel showed up (not according to scripture).

Saul asks 'What do you see?" She replies.... 'an elohim.'

Hmmm.

Did the witch of Endor really summon Samuel from the dead (1 Samuel 28:7-20)? | GotQuestions.org

Did the witch of Endor really summon Samuel from the dead (1 Samuel 28:7-20)? Why would God allow Samuel to be summoned by a witch?

www.gotquestions.org

Did the ghost of Samuel appear to Saul after his death?

When Saul consulted the witch (medium) of En Dor, was it really the prophet Samuel that appeared?

www.ucg.org

1 Samuel 28:12

Contemporary English Version

​

12 When the woman saw Samuel, she screamed.

The fact that she screamed, tells me that more than a ghost appeared something she did not expect

 

[Mr E]

I have one other thing I hope you’ll consider, when Stephen is being stoned to death it’s recorded he looks up and sees Jesus standing at the right hand of the Father.

Is it Saul he sees, Saul is standing there consenting to his death.

My wife shared this with me the other day. I believe this has to be a gift from God.

Two scenes-- on earth, 'a young man named Saul is standing by, holding the coats of the men stoning Stephen, consenting to his murder. -This is what is physically happening.

The other scene- is in heaven (spirit) where we can read--

But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently toward heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look!” he said. “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

Are you asking if it is Saul that Stephen sees in spirit, standing at the right hand of God?

The answer isn't found in this passage, but in the Psalms (quoted in Matthew). And the answer comes in the form of a question- Jesus asks them to acknowledge that 'the Christ' who was to come would be the son (physical descendant) of David. They affirm. Then he asks further-- with this fact established-

“How then does David by the Spirit call him ‘Lord,’ saying,
‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet”’?

David (and Jesus) in using this particular example is illustrating that the anointed one (on earth) has a Lord (master) in spirit. He differentiates between these two 'Lords' in this way, which might help you understand the passage and also the relationship that Jesus is pointing to by comparison. 'The Father (God) said to my (spiritual) master.... Sit at my right hand....'

The one at the Father's right hand is the son. Spiritual father, spiritual son. (in heaven) ---Stephen identifies this one above (in heaven/spirit) as a son of man (in physical human form) as Jesus, whom we call Christ because of this anointing upon him. On earth, son of man (human) and in spirit (son of God). Sorry, not Saul. But I like the way you are thinking. On earth as it is in heaven-- there is a duality and for everything seen above there is a reflection (image) of it below.


Read on....

Saul was trying to destroy the church; entering one house after another, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.

In Acts 9, it details how Saul has a near-death experience and sees the master-- in spirit, -and here too this lord is identified--

But Saul was trying to destroy the church; entering one house after another, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.
As he was going along, approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” So he said, “Who are you, Lord?” He replied, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting!

The physical Jesus? No, this was in spirit (a light from heaven) a vision in which Jesus appeared to him in spirit. And finally.... all of this to get to the point of what the reflection on earth would be of the heavenly/spiritual reality above--

But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man is my chosen instrument.

A vessel. A container. Anyone who thinks himself to be more than this, thinks too much of himself.

 

[Waiting on him]

Two scenes-- on earth, 'a young man named Saul is standing by, holding the coats of the men stoning Stephen, consenting to his murder. -This is what is physically happening.

The other scene- is in heaven (spirit) where we can read--

But Stephen, full of the Holy Spirit, looked intently toward heaven and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing at the right hand of God. “Look!” he said. “I see the heavens opened, and the Son of Man standing at the right hand of God!”

Are you asking if it is Saul that Stephen sees in spirit, standing at the right hand of God?

The answer isn't found in this passage, but in the Psalms (quoted in Matthew). And the answer comes in the form of a question- Jesus asks them to acknowledge that 'the Christ' who was to come would be the son (physical descendant) of David. They affirm. Then he asks further-- with this fact established-

“How then does David by the Spirit call him ‘Lord,’ saying,
‘The Lord said to my lord, “Sit at my right hand until I put your enemies under your feet”’?

David (and Jesus) in using this particular example is illustrating that the anointed one (on earth) has a Lord (master) in spirit. He differentiates between these two 'Lords' in this way, which might help you understand the passage and also the relationship that Jesus is pointing to by comparison. 'The Father (God) said to my (spiritual) master.... Sit at my right hand....'

The one at the Father's right hand is the son. Spiritual father, spiritual son. (in heaven) ---Stephen identifies this one above (in heaven/spirit) as a son of man (in physical human form) as Jesus, whom we call Christ because of this anointing upon him. On earth, son of man (human) and in spirit (son of God). Sorry, not Saul. But I like the way you are thinking. On earth as it is in heaven-- there is a duality and for everything seen above there is a reflection (image) of it below.


Read on....

Saul was trying to destroy the church; entering one house after another, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.

In Acts 9, it details how Saul has a near-death experience and sees the master-- in spirit, -and here too this lord is identified--

But Saul was trying to destroy the church; entering one house after another, he dragged off both men and women and put them in prison.
As he was going along, approaching Damascus, suddenly a light from heaven flashed around him. He fell to the ground and heard a voice saying to him, “Saul, Saul, why are you persecuting me?” So he said, “Who are you, Lord?” He replied, “I am Jesus whom you are persecuting!

The physical Jesus? No, this was in spirit (a light from heaven) a vision in which Jesus appeared to him in spirit. And finally.... all of this to get to the point of what the reflection on earth would be of the heavenly/spiritual reality above--

But the Lord said to him, “Go, because this man is my chosen instrument.

A vessel. A container. Anyone who thinks himself to be more than this, thinks too much of himself.

It was interesting that Stephen says the same thing Christ does as he’s being murdered,,,, forgive them for they know not what they do.

I would like to believe that Christ as well as Stephen was able to view their murders as soon to be among the born again. Paul even pleading with his brethren later that he would gladly be made reprobate if it meant their reconciliation?

Im not certain what he saw other than What scripture gives me and that is Jesus standing next to the Father.

This gave him peace in a very violent situation.

 

[Timtofly]

Romans 8:16 KJV
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:

How do you reconcile this scripture?

Obviously the spirit mirrors the soul. Not just controlled by the soul. A reprobate soul causes the spirit to become a demon. A demon flees from the presence of God, and joins forces with Satan.

 

[Timtofly]

The sun the moon and the stars were created on the fourth day. Adam was created last.

That which was spiritual came last.

Why is not all of creation spiritual? Why do you split creation apart instead of a whole?

God saw all of creation whole and complete. Not separated as you seem to indicate. There were many sons of God created on the 6th day, not just one. God told them (plural) to be fruitful and multiply. There were more than just one star, and God did not tell the stars to be fruitful and multiply.

 

[Timtofly]

But I really do believe the Spirit of Jesus returned in their flesh.

Jesus is God. The Spirit of God is the Holy Spirit. That is the only way, to really view that point.

One may say that 6 parts were on the Cross at the same time. God, Jesus, and the Holy Spirit, the Lord. Jesus as a soul, body, and spirit. Jesus was both 100% a created being through conception. Jesus was 100% God in human flesh.

Your point takes that a step further, saying that Jesus was not God, nor that we receive the Holy Spirit, but you focus on the spirit of Jesus as a human being. So, no! The spirit of Jesus as a human remains with Jesus, and not sent to other humans, as it is a single spirit and would only be in one person at a time. The Holy Spirit as God, is working in every single human ever conceived. As God that would be omnipresent. The Holy Spirit was seen in Genesis 1:2

"And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters."

That is the Spirit of Jesus in us, the Holy Spirit.

 

[Timtofly]

There does have to be some explanation as to why none of them recognized him after three years of being in his presence, and even his own mother.

I’ve asked this question here multiple times and your the first to give a logical answer.

Thanks!

They thought he was dead. One's mind can be tricked, no? If they were with Jesus for over 3 years, and then watched Him die, they would expect Him to remain dead, even if He kept telling them over and over He would return. The mind still saw Jesus as dead, even though He was literally standing as resurrected before them. God had to heal their mind as to viewing a resurrection. Like many today, to them, a resurrection is always off in the distant future, though Jesus told them He was the Resurrection and the Life, and with them in their present lives. They were in the last day of that far distant resurrection. The Cross was that last day resurrection that they were taught from the OT Scriptures.

Some seem to want to interject some carnel sin centered explanation, instead of just accepting God at work on the earth.

 

[Davy]

On my rounds of the discussion boards I see that a lot of seemingly intelligent sensible people believe in reincarnation, namely that when we die we're born again as a baby somewhere.
Is there any Biblical scriptural support for it?

No, there is NO BIBLICAL SUPPORT for the theory of reincarnation.

And yeah, some famous people believed in it, like George S. Patton.

Some of the Pharisees believed in it, as when Jesus asked His disciples who people said He was, His disciples claimed 'some say' John the Baptist, or one of the prophets. For that to work it would have to involve the theory of reincarnation. Of course Jesus was NOT any of those.

 

[Mr E]

They thought he was dead. One's mind can be tricked, no? If they were with Jesus for over 3 years, and then watched Him die, they would expect Him to remain dead, even if He kept telling them over and over He would return. The mind still saw Jesus as dead, even though He was literally standing as resurrected before them. God had to heal their mind as to viewing a resurrection. Like many today, to them, a resurrection is always off in the distant future, though Jesus told them He was the Resurrection and the Life, and with them in their present lives. They were in the last day of that far distant resurrection. The Cross was that last day resurrection that they were taught from the OT Scriptures.

Some seem to want to interject some carnel sin centered explanation, instead of just accepting God at work on the earth.

Really?

They went to the tomb, looking for him and expecting to find him. When they arrive the stone is rolled away and there he is!!!

...but they don't recognize him, because 'their mind was tricked'??? His mother and best friends didn't recognize him?

You would be better off insisting that he had been beaten 'beyond recognition' -and that's why they didn't recognize him.... Or that, it was foggy, or they had tears in their eyes.... it's ridiculous assertion.

They didn't recognize him because he wasn't physically standing there, having been beaten to a pulp, pierced and wounded, hung 'til dead, wrapped and buried. You think Jesus was physically standing in front of all these people in all these circumstances and none of these who knew him best, recognized him-- because their minds were tricked? That's fantasy. It wasn't a trick. It's not the dormant body that rises from the dead, but the spirit.

The regeneration that Christ taught is spirit-- heaven is his throne, and in the regeneration the Christ sits on his throne. It's such a basic Christian concept, I'm truly surprised when so few comprehend. It's Christ-in-us. His spirit in us, we-his body. A kingdom within where he reigns. And he moves us (those who know him as master/lord) by his will, leading, prompting, guiding, riding.... and we become his hands and feet. And sometimes, by the spirit we speak his words. It's the essence of Christianity-- Christ in us.

If people don't immediately recognize Christ in you, it's not because their minds are tricked.... (though true in a sense) It's because you don't look or sound like him. At some point, with the help of heaven-- they might look at you and realize it's not 'you' at all they are interacting with, but Christ -in- you.

 

[Waiting on him]

Really?

They went to the tomb, looking for him and expecting to find him. When they arrive the stone is rolled away and there he is!!!

...but they don't recognize him, because 'their mind was tricked'??? His mother and best friends didn't recognize him?

You would be better off insisting that he had been beaten 'beyond recognition' -and that's why they didn't recognize him.... Or that, it was foggy, or they had tears in their eyes.... it's ridiculous assertion.

They didn't recognize him because he wasn't physically standing there, having been beaten to a pulp, pierced and wounded, hung 'til dead, wrapped and buried. You think Jesus was physically standing in front of all these people in all these circumstances and none of these who knew him best, recognized him-- because their minds were tricked? That's fantasy. It wasn't a trick. It's not the dormant body that rises from the dead, but the spirit.

The regeneration that Christ taught is spirit-- heaven is his throne, and in the regeneration the Christ sits on his throne. It's such a basic Christian concept, I'm truly surprised when so few comprehend. It's Christ-in-us. His spirit in us, we-his body. A kingdom within where he reigns. And he moves us (those who know him as master/lord) by his will, leading, prompting, guiding, riding.... and we become his hands and feet. And sometimes, by the spirit we speak his words. It's the essence of Christianity-- Christ in us.

If people don't immediately recognize Christ in you, it's not because their minds are tricked.... (though true in a sense) It's because you don't look or sound like him. At some point, with the help of heaven-- they might look at you and realize it's not 'you' at all they are interacting with, but Christ -in- you.

Yeah, I personally don’t think this is the case with me as far as Christ in me, but maybe one day.

 

[Waiting on him]

Hebrews 10:5-6 KJV
[5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me: [6] In burnt offerings and sacrifices for sin thou hast had no pleasure.

 

[Timtofly]

Really?

They went to the tomb, looking for him and expecting to find him. When they arrive the stone is rolled away and there he is!!!

...but they don't recognize him, because 'their mind was tricked'??? His mother and best friends didn't recognize him?

You would be better off insisting that he had been beaten 'beyond recognition' -and that's why they didn't recognize him.... Or that, it was foggy, or they had tears in their eyes.... it's ridiculous assertion.

They didn't recognize him because he wasn't physically standing there, having been beaten to a pulp, pierced and wounded, hung 'til dead, wrapped and buried. You think Jesus was physically standing in front of all these people in all these circumstances and none of these who knew him best, recognized him-- because their minds were tricked? That's fantasy. It wasn't a trick. It's not the dormant body that rises from the dead, but the spirit.

The regeneration that Christ taught is spirit-- heaven is his throne, and in the regeneration the Christ sits on his throne. It's such a basic Christian concept, I'm truly surprised when so few comprehend. It's Christ-in-us. His spirit in us, we-his body. A kingdom within where he reigns. And he moves us (those who know him as master/lord) by his will, leading, prompting, guiding, riding.... and we become his hands and feet. And sometimes, by the spirit we speak his words. It's the essence of Christianity-- Christ in us.

If people don't immediately recognize Christ in you, it's not because their minds are tricked.... (though true in a sense) It's because you don't look or sound like him. At some point, with the help of heaven-- they might look at you and realize it's not 'you' at all they are interacting with, but Christ -in- you.

That was not my point that God tricked their mind, but you seem to run with it. In evey day life on the common things the mind can think it saw or heard something, but it was not what actually happened. The point was the mind can play tricks, unless properly guided.

Now back to did God guide them or not?

"And it came to pass, that, while they communed together and reasoned, Jesus himself drew near, and went with them. But their eyes were holden that they should not know him."

Was that God tricking them, or guiding them?

"And it came to pass, as he sat at meat with them, he took bread, and blessed it, and brake, and gave to them. And their eyes were opened, and they knew him; and he vanished out of their sight. And they said one to another, Did not our heart burn within us, while he talked with us by the way, and while he opened to us the scriptures?"

Their eyes were made so they would not be tricked, until they heard what Jesus had to say. Then God opened their eyes.

Human understanding is full of mind trickery. Yet that is what you teach others. You declare Scripture, but why would you accuse me of saying God tricked them?

They were not expecting a perfect human to be standing right in front of them just after you described. They had to be guided by God to get the full picture. Not your spiritual mumbo jumbo of pagan origin.

It is not about what anyone thinks or believes. All we can do is interpret Scripture, and keep paganism out of that interpretation.

 

[ButterflyJones]

I don't know. However I do know someone whose son one day took him on a journey after years of in occasion telling his dad what he'd (the son) had done when he was a man.

On this particular day the dad decided to explore his son's remarks.So he encouraged him to talk about his past life as a man.

Long story short this little 7 year old boy guided his dad to a home he said he'd lived in before in his other life A home in Florida that was miles, counties, away from his current home.

Before arriving the young man described the house and his wife, and her name.

He guided his dad up the driveway and to the front door.
When the widow answered the door the child addressed her by name.

And while outside the home described in detail the inside of the house .

Luke I said, reincarnation? I don't know. However that experience shared by a man we know well was hard to ignore.