Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Then give all Scripture that can back up that different form applying to humans. Jesus is God, and can appear in any form He chooses. Jesus is fully soul, body, and spirit. We are only soul and body.
Is Reincarnation baloney?
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Timtofly
Well-Known Member
No the son part was supposed, to Joseph. The only son was Jesus to God. Adam is not the son of God. Adam is just one son of God along with many created on the 6th Day.
Adam was of God, created. Jesus was of God, begotten. God did not give birth to Adam. GOD gave birth to Himself in the womb of Mary.
Jesus said, "you have seen me, you have seen the Father." He was not talking about Joseph.
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
You have no spirit with you that you are in control of. You are not a spirit, but a living soul.
You are confusing the spirit with the soul.
A soul is conceived, and a body forms in the womb. There is no spirit as part of the process other than the Holy Spirit.
When Adam disobeyed God, he lost the spirit. No one has had a spirit to put on since that day, who are born of Adam's dead corruptible flesh. The breath returns to God, sure. That breath was given to Adam. But that breath would be the Holy Spirit returning to God, because the work of the Holy Spirit is finished at physical death. You do not need the Holy Spirit in sheol, nor in Paradise. But you were never in possession of your spirit, because it is the image of a son of God, and you are not in that image, but Adam's dead corruptible flesh image.
That is the image Adam lost when he died. His soul was now physically and spiritually dead, and no longer the image of God. Having your spirit puts you back into the image of God, nor something currently in you.
That is what happened on the mount of Transfiguration. Jesus showed them what having the spirit put on is. His body became as bright as the sun. That is putting on the robe of white. That is putting on the spirit. That is death/mortal putting on life/no longer mortal, immortality. Meaning without death. Once the spirit is put on, the soul is no longer in that state of death, Adam experienced when he disobeyed God.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I certainly don't accept any of the premises you assert to justify your belief. I certainly don't accept that man is a tripartite being consisting of three parts: body, soul, and spirit and that one can survive without the others.
I don't believe we "have" a soul. I believe we "are" a soul.
Genesis 2:7 Then the Lord God formed the man of dust from the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and the man became a living person.
In other words, Adam didn't become Adam until God united dust from the ground with the breath of life. It follows then that if Adam should die, his dust would return to the ground, as God said, and Adam would cease to be Adam.
It also follows from this that if one or the other of body or spirit is removed; the soul ceases to exist, since the man became a living soul due to the unification of body and spirit. When a man dies, he ceases to exist.
My question is this, given this information, how shall I interpret the apparition Saul believed to be Samuel? Is a disembodied Samuel in spirit form the most likely explanation, given that Samuel wouldn't be Samuel without the unification of his body with his Spirit?
Obviously, God wanted Saul to hear a message from Samuel. But was it actually Samuel? I don't know. After all, God caused a donkey to relay a message to Balaam. And Jesus said that if need be, God could cause the stones to cry out.
Can you see the reason for caution?
Timtofly
Well-Known Member
Then explain how Paul states there are two different bodies? One temporal from Adam and the other permanent from God. God created the dust out of nothing, surely He can make that dust be whatever He pleases. Dust is just the atoms in one's particular body at any given moment. These small particles in combination determine the attributes of the physical world. We are both physical and spiritual, but the spiritual part is lost to us. In fact the spiritual world that Saul wanted access to was a taboo. As King, Saul was required to carry out the law and kill the witch who he was seeking help from.
The reason we don't have access to the spiritual is because we are in a state of death. I did not say we are currently a tri part being. I said humanity was created as a tri part being. No, we don't have to go over the whole Trinity thing. I don't think there is only Jesus and the Holy Spirit though.
If we are to be in the image of God, we as a soul do need a physical body and a spirit as well. We are not our body, nor our spirit. All we are is a soul, and yes, we can exist without either.
Was not the breath of God separate from the dust that formed the physical body? That breath was not created dust. If as you say we are a soul, we are the soul in the body God formed. We are not the body, so we as the soul can leave the body, and put on another body. When Paul was speaking of being changed, that is how he describes it, taking off one, and putting on another. It is not the soul that changes nor the body that is changed. The soul is still the breath of God in each and every conception. The soul is not from the atoms of the physical earth. We were not a soul, until God used His breath to create us as a living soul.
The body and spirit are still distinct from the soul, just as the breath of God was distinct from the physical body, and the spiritual part put on over the body. We are not told that much about our spirit. But since the Holy Spirit is distinct from a physical body yet can be submitted to as in our will, why do we relegate what is spirit, to some sort of apparition inside the body? Or worse yet conflate the soul and spirit as one, even though we are spiritually dead? If we are spiritually dead, we don't have a spirit that is of any use to us. Yet in the spiritual world, we are blind to, the spirit is important to God.
To believe this is to counter the very teachings of Christ. A polite way of saying anti-Christ.
He’s the one who taught about the spirit that indwells us and where it comes from. You are free to believe what you wish, but your beliefs are in error and not based on scripture.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Romans 8:16 KJV
[16] The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God:
How do you reconcile this scripture?
I just saw the OP. This was my first thought. Then I scrolled down, and saw your post!
Much love!
If the Bible says that Samuel spoke to Saul, why wouldn't we accept that at face value? Isn't the alternative to say it says it was Samuel, but it wasn't really?
Much love!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
It isn't wrong, per se, to take things at face value. But if we are attempting to understand a story or a narrative, we need to account for all the elements of the story. For instance, why did the medium fear for her life? Was she doing something illegal and punishable by death. Why is practicing the medium arts punishable by death? Why did Saul force her to do something illegal?
Consider the word of the Prophet Isaiah,
Isaiah 8:19
When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
What is Isaiah getting at here?
It seems to me that Isaiah might be critical of Saul's behavior. Why didn't Saul approach God directly?
I guess my point is this, I really don't understand the passage until I sort out these answers, but we have one clue from the Isaiah passage that is hard to ignore. Isaiah would have considered Samuel to be among the dead. Can the dead speak? (always the questions! always the questions!)
I'd be interested in hearing more of your thoughts.
We just have to decide whether we should accept the sayings of the Bible, or, to consider that passages mean things other than what they are saying.It isn't wrong, per se, to take things at face value. But if we are attempting to understand a story or a narrative, we need to account for all the elements of the story. For instance, why did the medium fear for her life? Was she doing something illegal and punishable by death. Why is practicing the medium arts punishable by death? Why did Saul force her to do something illegal?
Consider the word of the Prophet Isaiah,
Isaiah 8:19
When they say to you, “Consult the mediums and the spiritists who whisper and mutter,” should not a people consult their God? Should they consult the dead on behalf of the living?
What is Isaiah getting at here?
It seems to me that Isaiah might be critical of Saul's behavior. Why didn't Saul approach God directly?
I guess my point is this, I really don't understand the passage until I sort out these answers, but we have one clue from the Isaiah passage that is hard to ignore. Isaiah would have considered Samuel to be among the dead. Can the dead speak? (always the questions! always the questions!)
I'd be interested in hearing more of your thoughts.
In a narrative passage, if the Bible says Samson killed 1,000 men with a jawbone, I accept that. And if Samuel was said to have spoken to Saul, I accept that.
The medium feared because she was being asked to do something illegal. Why was it illegal? God commanded to not do that. Why did God command that? We can only speculate. I expect because it's generally harmful.
Why did Saul command her to violate the law? Because he was afraid, and was seeking comfort. Maybe Samuel was the closest thing Saul had to a real friend. Again I can only speculate here.
Can the dead speak? If the Bible says that they can/have, then yes.
Saul was in the wrong to do this, even so, Samuel appeared to him and told him God's word, that he would die the next day.
And . . . if that's not what happened, then why would God mislead us that way? And how will we know what else didn't "really" happen?
Much love!
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I agree that we should accept what the Bible says. But whenever two people disagree about what it says then we discuss options and work things out.
I like how you focused on the facts, i.e. "1000 men" and etc. But I think a review of the passage at hand will produce only a small few objective facts. I mentioned that our information is coming from a narrative. Why is this important? Because for the sake of the story, it might say something like "Saul talked to Samuel", even if Saul was actually talking to a specter (demon) claiming to be Samuel.
"And the woman said to Saul, “I see a divine being coming up out of the earth.”
If one is to conclude that Samuel was actually alive and present, then one needs to account for the sentence above. What did she see? What did she actually see?
What is a "divine" being?
"He said to her, “What is his form?”
Why would he ask that? If Saul was expecting to see Samuel, he wouldn't ask her about his form would he? He asks her about the form because he can't see it himself. It seems reasonable to read between the lines at this point. If Saul can see the image of Samuel himself, would he need to ask the woman what he looks like? I don't think so. He is simply taking her word for what is going on.
Saul can't see the image of Samuel, I doubt he knew for sure that he was talking to the actual Samuel or someone else. He must have heard a voice and perhaps he recognized Samuel's voice. I don't know.
I am hampered by the fact that I have never had this experience. I don't have enough practical knowledge about such things to know whether Saul was actually talking to Samuel or not.
I've got more to think about, yes?
Whereas I don't have the same constraint. Experiences aside, I don't see any reason to not accept this account, in the same way I accept the account of Samson. Did I say Gideon? I think I did!
Anyway, I don't need any additional knowledge to believe the account, I accept it as true as a matter of course. IF there were some Scripture which gave more info on this event, that would be something to consider, but I'm not aware of any place in the Bible that indicates this happened in some other way than was written.
Regardless of whether Saul knew it was really Samuel or really an unclean spirit, the writer of the passage was, I believe, inspired by God to write what was written, so to my mind, this is God telling me that Saul spoke with Samuel.
Much love!
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Just to be clear, I also agree that we should believe what the scriptures say. The question is, "what does it actually say?"
It’s interesting to me that the Jews knew exactly what the scriptures said, but it took the teachings of Christ to explain what they mean.
1 Samuel 28:12-20 KJV
12) And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14) And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16) Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17) And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18) Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19) Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20) Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.
Your assertion is that this might be considered in the form of "phenomenal language", that doesn't give a literal description of what is happening, rather it gives what the appearance is. So this appeared to Saul to be Samuel, so, whether or not it really was, it's written that way.
An example would be that the sun turns to sackcloth, and the moon to blood. Later in the prophecy we read of the sun scorching men in the bowl judgment. We read of the sun and moon to be darkened when Jesus comes in power and glory. So to me these say that the sun won't actually turn to burlap, and the moon won't turn to actual blood, rather that this is how they will appear.
Luke 2:48 KJV
And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.
Here, Mary speaks the same way, "your father and I", even knowing Jesus was not fathered by Joseph. People often just speak that way. But then Jesus answers accurately, "I must be about My Father's business", referring of course to His real Father.
Matthew 1:15-16 KJV
15) And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16) And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.
Matthew, giving us the information, doesn't write that way, and does not show Joseph to be Jesus' father.
Luke 2:43 KJV
And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.
Luke recorded Mary's statement, "your father and I" but when giving the narrative account again wrote accurately, "Joseph and His mother". He even adds a disclaimer in his geneology of Jesus,
Luke 3:23 YLT
And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,
John the Baptist / Elijah made for an interesting study in this regard, but concerning them I find a great many statements that have no counterpart in the simple narrative concerning Saul and Samuel.
So this is some of my thought process in looking at this passage. I see a pattern of accurate representation of people, and when there is some variation on that, I'm seeing the Scriptures explain and confirm.
Much love!
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
Yes!
And talking donkeys and eagles too! Rocks that cry out and a voice from the four horns of the altar… or rushing water and even the wind. Also the song of the lamb…
And anything you can dream.
Waiting on him
Well-Known Member
How can the world as a collective have gone backwards for nearly 2k years?
I do believe something huge is on the horizon, but I don’t believe it will be what the majority of Christian’s expect.
When Christ came and explained things, correcting error and setting the record straight- he didn’t blame the people. He blamed the teachers.
Will it be any different when Christ returns?
Of course a lot of people think they are teachers.
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