Is Reincarnation baloney?

[Waiting on him]

Adam is not the son of God. Adam is just one son of God along with many created on the 6th Day.

The sun the moon and the stars were created on the fourth day. Adam was created last.

That which was spiritual came last.

 

[CadyandZoe]

1 Samuel 28:12-20 KJV
12) And when the woman saw Samuel, she cried with a loud voice: and the woman spake to Saul, saying, Why hast thou deceived me? for thou art Saul.
13) And the king said unto her, Be not afraid: for what sawest thou? And the woman said unto Saul, I saw gods ascending out of the earth.
14) And he said unto her, What form is he of? And she said, An old man cometh up; and he is covered with a mantle. And Saul perceived that it was Samuel, and he stooped with his face to the ground, and bowed himself.
15) And Samuel said to Saul, Why hast thou disquieted me, to bring me up? And Saul answered, I am sore distressed; for the Philistines make war against me, and God is departed from me, and answereth me no more, neither by prophets, nor by dreams: therefore I have called thee, that thou mayest make known unto me what I shall do.
16) Then said Samuel, Wherefore then dost thou ask of me, seeing the LORD is departed from thee, and is become thine enemy?
17) And the LORD hath done to him, as he spake by me: for the LORD hath rent the kingdom out of thine hand, and given it to thy neighbour, even to David:
18) Because thou obeyedst not the voice of the LORD, nor executedst his fierce wrath upon Amalek, therefore hath the LORD done this thing unto thee this day.
19) Moreover the LORD will also deliver Israel with thee into the hand of the Philistines: and to morrow shalt thou and thy sons be with me: the LORD also shall deliver the host of Israel into the hand of the Philistines.
20) Then Saul fell straightway all along on the earth, and was sore afraid, because of the words of Samuel: and there was no strength in him; for he had eaten no bread all the day, nor all the night.

Your assertion is that this might be considered in the form of "phenomenal language", that doesn't give a literal description of what is happening, rather it gives what the appearance is. So this appeared to Saul to be Samuel, so, whether or not it really was, it's written that way.

An example would be that the sun turns to sackcloth, and the moon to blood. Later in the prophecy we read of the sun scorching men in the bowl judgment. We read of the sun and moon to be darkened when Jesus comes in power and glory. So to me these say that the sun won't actually turn to burlap, and the moon won't turn to actual blood, rather that this is how they will appear.

Luke 2:48 KJV
And when they saw him, they were amazed: and his mother said unto him, Son, why hast thou thus dealt with us? behold, thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing.

Here, Mary speaks the same way, "your father and I", even knowing Jesus was not fathered by Joseph. People often just speak that way. But then Jesus answers accurately, "I must be about My Father's business", referring of course to His real Father.

Matthew 1:15-16 KJV
15) And Eliud begat Eleazar; and Eleazar begat Matthan; and Matthan begat Jacob;
16) And Jacob begat Joseph the husband of Mary, of whom was born Jesus, who is called Christ.

Matthew, giving us the information, doesn't write that way, and does not show Joseph to be Jesus' father.

Luke 2:43 KJV
And when they had fulfilled the days, as they returned, the child Jesus tarried behind in Jerusalem; and Joseph and his mother knew not of it.

Luke recorded Mary's statement, "your father and I" but when giving the narrative account again wrote accurately, "Joseph and His mother". He even adds a disclaimer in his geneology of Jesus,

Luke 3:23 YLT
And Jesus himself was beginning to be about thirty years of age, being, as was supposed, son of Joseph,

John the Baptist / Elijah made for an interesting study in this regard, but concerning them I find a great many statements that have no counterpart in the simple narrative concerning Saul and Samuel.

So this is some of my thought process in looking at this passage. I see a pattern of accurate representation of people, and when there is some variation on that, I'm seeing the Scriptures explain and confirm.

Much love!

Thanks for a well thought out presentation. I value it.

 

[CadyandZoe]

It’s interesting to me that the Jews knew exactly what the scriptures said, but it took the teachings of Christ to explain what they mean.

I understand what you are saying. Did you have a specific passage in mind or just in general?

 

[Mr E]

I understand what you are saying. Did you have a specific passage in mind or just in general?

I could provide numerous examples, but I was just interjecting in general-- butting into your conversation with @marks regarding the nature of understanding scripture >>>

We just have to decide whether we should accept the sayings of the Bible, or, to consider that passages mean things other than what they are saying.

I agree that we should accept what the Bible says. But whenever two people disagree about what it says then we discuss options and work things out.

Anyway, I don't need any additional knowledge to believe the account, I accept it as true as a matter of course. IF there were some Scripture which gave more info on this event, that would be something to consider, but I'm not aware of any place in the Bible that indicates this happened in some other way than was written.

Just to be clear, I also agree that we should believe what the scriptures say. The question is, "what does it actually say?"

There is a difference between knowing what scripture says and understanding what it says/means. Here's one example that kind of relates to this in an interesting way... it concerns the way the woman speaks with the spirit of Samuel. It's fascinating actually. The concept of calling up a familiar spirit is the root from which we have derived the idea that a bottle of alcohol is referred to as a bottle of spirits. Less, commonly these days of course, but that's the concept of old. That the woman conjures up the spirit of Samuel, by means of some bottled potion that opens a gate to the spirit world. If you look at the Hebrew account in 1 Samuel 28, this becomes clear.

The woman, in her altered state allows the spirit to speak through her... that is, -she sees Samuel, and is able to tell Saul what she sees, but when the spirit of Samuel is speaking-- it is through her-- she becomes a conduit, or what we would call a medium through which the spirit speaks.

Here's what is interesting-- In Luke 24 we have two accounts of something very similar. First on the road to Emmaus, the risen Christ speaks to the two disciples 'in a different form' that was unrecognizable to them. If you can get your head around the concept explained above, you might understand what was happening. The spirit of Jesus was speaking through another, and it was only later that they realized this to have been the case.

Similarly, in the same chapter of Luke we see Jesus appearing in the midst of the twelve and speaking with them. This appearing and disappearing is at will-- that he can appear among them at any time and in any form, speaking to and through people in a way that he makes himself completely recognizable despite his appearance, by what he says and the way he says it. We can know that this is what is happening by the testimony of those present, of whom we are told-

But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

Why? Because, like that spirit who spoke through the woman-- Jesus is speaking through one of them in similar manner. Just as Saul knew (perceived) it was Samuel when he asked her--'What do you see?' -and she was able to describe the spirit she was communicating with, and who was communicating through her-- the disciples were able to understand that it was Jesus speaking through one of them (unnamed here, but obviously Thomas, from other accounts) who could "see" Jesus and in spirit put his finger in the wounds in his hands and side. But Jesus makes it clear that it is really him, speaking to them-- in this way--- Like the previous example, he sits and eats with them, breaking bread or eating fish and honey... because they were terrified.

To set their troubled minds at ease, he says, 'a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone' like this, meaning-- it's really me in here. Risen. Alive.

 

[marks]

The woman, in her altered state allows the spirit to speak through her... that is, -she sees Samuel, and is able to tell Saul what she sees, but when the spirit of Samuel is speaking-- it is through her-- she becomes a conduit, or what we would call a medium through which the spirit speaks.

You are making an assumption that is not specified in the narrative.

And even so, The Bible Says . . . Saul spoke to Samuel. So I'll go back to what I said at the start. Either you believe that plain indicative statement, or, for whatever reason, you don't.

For myself, I do.

Much love!

 

[marks]

Why? Because, like that spirit who spoke through the woman-- Jesus is speaking through one of them in similar manner.

Another assumption, and demonstrably wrong. Look at my hands, put you fingers in the holes, put your hand in my side . . .

Much love!

 

[Mr E]

You are making an assumption that is not specified in the narrative.

And even so, The Bible Says . . . Saul spoke to Samuel. So I'll go back to what I said at the start. Either you believe that plain indicative statement, or, for whatever reason, you don't.

For myself, I do.

Much love!

He spoke "to" Samuel "through" the woman. He communicated with 'the spirit' of Samuel.

You read it, but you don't understand what you are reading. I'm explaining it to you.

 

[Waiting on him]

I could provide numerous examples, but I was just interjecting in general-- butting into your conversation with @marks regarding the nature of understanding scripture >>>









There is a difference between knowing what scripture says and understanding what it says/means. Here's one example that kind of relates to this in an interesting way... it concerns the way the woman speaks with the spirit of Samuel. It's fascinating actually. The concept of calling up a familiar spirit is the root from which we have derived the idea that a bottle of alcohol is referred to as a bottle of spirits. Less, commonly these days of course, but that's the concept of old. That the woman conjures up the spirit of Samuel, by means of some bottled potion that opens a gate to the spirit world. If you look at the Hebrew account in 1 Samuel 28, this becomes clear.

The woman, in her altered state allows the spirit to speak through her... that is, -she sees Samuel, and is able to tell Saul what she sees, but when the spirit of Samuel is speaking-- it is through her-- she becomes a conduit, or what we would call a medium through which the spirit speaks.

Here's what is interesting-- In Luke 24 we have two accounts of something very similar. First on the road to Emmaus, the risen Christ speaks to the two disciples 'in a different form' that was unrecognizable to them. If you can get your head around the concept explained above, you might understand what was happening. The spirit of Jesus was speaking through another, and it was only later that they realized this to have been the case.

Similarly, in the same chapter of Luke we see Jesus appearing in the midst of the twelve and speaking with them. This appearing and disappearing is at will-- that he can appear among them at any time and in any form, speaking to and through people in a way that he makes himself completely recognizable despite his appearance, by what he says and the way he says it. We can know that this is what is happening by the testimony of those present, of whom we are told-

But they were terrified and affrighted, and supposed that they had seen a spirit.

Why? Because, like that spirit who spoke through the woman-- Jesus is speaking through one of them in similar manner. Just as Saul knew (perceived) it was Samuel when he asked her--'What do you see?' -and she was able to describe the spirit she was communicating with, and who was communicating through her-- the disciples were able to understand that it was Jesus speaking through one of them (unnamed here, but obviously Thomas, from other accounts) who could "see" Jesus and in spirit put his finger in the wounds in his hands and side. But Jesus makes it clear that it is really him, speaking to them-- in this way--- Like the previous example, he sits and eats with them, breaking bread or eating fish and honey... because they were terrified.

To set their troubled minds at ease, he says, 'a spirit doesn't have flesh and bone' like this, meaning-- it's really me in here. Risen. Alive.

For me the thing that clenched it was when he breathed on them. Jesus in my opinion was showing them what was soon to come at Pentecost.

 

[Waiting on him]

The two in white told the one’s gazing up that Jesus would return the same way he ascended.

In Spirit!

 

[Mr E]

Another assumption, and demonstrably wrong. Look at my hands, put you fingers in the holes, put your hand in my side . . .

Much love!

There are numerous examples-- Mary at the tomb....

When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus.

----- Because she thought he was the gardener....

 

[marks]

He spoke "to" Samuel "through" the woman. He communicated with 'the spirit' of Samuel.

You read it, but you don't understand what you are reading. I'm explaining it to you.

You are expaining how it doesn't mean what it says, and I don't agree. Just like you've denied Jesus physical resurrection, apparently, and I completely don't agree. Did Jesus physically rise from the dead?

Much love!

 

[marks]

There are numerous examples-- Mary at the tomb....

When she had said this, she turned around and saw Jesus standing there, but she did not know that it was Jesus.

----- Because she thought he was the gardener....

That doesn't mean a disembodied Jesus possess the body of the gardener.

I'll await your answer, did He bodily resurrect?

Much love!

 

[Mr E]

You are expaining how it doesn't mean what it says, and I don't agree. Just like you've denied Jesus physical resurrection, apparently, and I completely don't agree. Did Jesus physically rise from the dead?

Much love!

You 'don't agree' with things that you 'don't understand.' Frankly what you agree or disagree with, isn't my concern.

Yours, and yours alone.

 

[Waiting on him]

You 'don't agree' with things that you 'don't understand.' Frankly what you agree or disagree with, isn't my concern.

Yours, and yours alone.

1 John 4:3 KJV
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


In this scripture, would you say the flesh spoken of is the literal physical flesh of Jesus, or the flesh of his kinsmen?

 

[Mr E]

1 John 4:3 KJV
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


In this scripture, would you say the flesh spoken of is the literal physical flesh of Jesus, or the flesh of his kinsmen?

I'll reply to you and @marks at once--

I'll await your answer, did He bodily resurrect?

Physical resurrection isn't likely what you might imagine it to be. The scriptural accounts provide all the detail you need if you believe them, and if you understand what he taught. What did he teach?

He taught that his spirit-- the holy spirit of God (is spirit-- for clarity) would reside in us. That we would be the body of Christ-- the temple or tent of the spirit of God. As far as physical resurrection goes, that's it. His spirit (spirit) dwelling in (physical) us-- the members of His body. A kingdom within. It's explained very clearly in John 17, and as far as resurrection or reincarnation goes (to use that loaded word) Jesus calls it "regeneration." (Matt 19)

Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


'Thus it stands written that the Christ would suffer and would rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.'

It is the spirit, not the body that rises. (John 6)

'Does this cause you to be offended? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascending where he was before? The Spirit is the one who gives life; human nature is of no help! The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.'

 

[marks]

Physical resurrection isn't likely what you might imagine it to be.

Sounds like a "no". That tells me what I wanted to know. Thank you!

It is the spirit, not the body that rises. (John 6)

Great! Clarity. Don't bother to post to me in the future.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

I'll reply to you and @marks at once--



Physical resurrection isn't likely what you might imagine it to be. The scriptural accounts provide all the detail you need if you believe them, and if you understand what he taught. What did he teach?

He taught that his spirit-- the holy spirit of God (is spirit-- for clarity) would reside in us. That we would be the body of Christ-- the temple or tent of the spirit of God. As far as physical resurrection goes, that's it. His spirit (spirit) dwelling in (physical) us-- the members of His body. A kingdom within. It's explained very clearly in John 17, and as far as resurrection or reincarnation goes (to use that loaded word) Jesus calls it "regeneration." (Matt 19)

Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


'Thus it stands written that the Christ would suffer and would rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.'

It is the spirit, not the body that rises. (John 6)

'Does this cause you to be offended? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascending where he was before? The Spirit is the one who gives life; human nature is of no help! The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.'

I’m not sure that this has happened with me… many get offended when I say this, but the truth is it’s just how I feel.

But I really do believe the Spirit of Jesus returned in their flesh.

 

[marks]

1 John 4:3 KJV
[3] And every spirit that confesseth not that Jesus Christ is come in the flesh is not of God: and this is that spirit of antichrist, whereof ye have heard that it should come; and even now already is it in the world.


In this scripture, would you say the flesh spoken of is the literal physical flesh of Jesus, or the flesh of his kinsmen?

And this is in Perfect Tense, Jesus remains in flesh. Those who deny this are antichrist.

Much love!

 

[Waiting on him]

And this is in Perfect Tense, Jesus remains in flesh. Those who deny this are antichrist.

Much love!

I’m not really sure what you’re stating here marks. Are your saying there is a flesh Jesus in heaven ?

 

[Waiting on him]

I'll reply to you and @marks at once--



Physical resurrection isn't likely what you might imagine it to be. The scriptural accounts provide all the detail you need if you believe them, and if you understand what he taught. What did he teach?

He taught that his spirit-- the holy spirit of God (is spirit-- for clarity) would reside in us. That we would be the body of Christ-- the temple or tent of the spirit of God. As far as physical resurrection goes, that's it. His spirit (spirit) dwelling in (physical) us-- the members of His body. A kingdom within. It's explained very clearly in John 17, and as far as resurrection or reincarnation goes (to use that loaded word) Jesus calls it "regeneration." (Matt 19)

Verily I say unto you, That ye which have followed me, in the regeneration when the Son of man shall sit in the throne of his glory, ye also shall sit upon twelve thrones, judging the twelve tribes of Israel.


'Thus it stands written that the Christ would suffer and would rise from the dead on the third day, and repentance for the forgiveness of sins would be proclaimed in his name to all nations, beginning from Jerusalem.'

It is the spirit, not the body that rises. (John 6)

'Does this cause you to be offended? Then what if you see the Son of Man ascending where he was before? The Spirit is the one who gives life; human nature is of no help! The words that I have spoken to you are spirit and are life.'

There does have to be some explanation as to why none of them recognized him after three years of being in his presence, and even his own mother.

I’ve asked this question here multiple times and your the first to give a logical answer.

Thanks!