Is Romans 8 a license to be holy?

[Episkopos]

People are always looking for the easiest way...the way that is easiest for the flesh to emulate. Romans 8 is very misunderstood by most. We have some great exhortations that are missed...but stand as real markers to the standard of the risen in Christ.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Verses like these are gobbledigook to the carnal man.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

But there is no excuse for missing a basic message as this...

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I know Richard interprets this verse as AFTER having committed a sin...he kills it with his spirit. ;)

This is way out there of course...but how do others of the "faith only" (actually belief or opinion only) crowd explain away the truth of this!!!???? ;)

 

[grandma dolittle]

By twisting it to mean whatever they want it to mean. Much of the scriptures are read that way. However, I would sure hate to kneel before Chrtist and give him a bunch of excuses. The only thing I want to confess to Christ is how much I love him!

 

[haz]

People are always looking for the easiest way...the way that is easiest for the flesh to emulate. Romans 8 is very misunderstood by most. We have some great exhortations that are missed...but stand as real markers to the standard of the risen in Christ.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Verses like these are gobbledigook to the carnal man.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

But there is no excuse for missing a basic message as this...

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I know Richard interprets this verse as AFTER having committed a sin...he kills it with his spirit. ;)

This is way out there of course...but how do others of the "faith only" (actually belief or opinion only) crowd explain away the truth of this!!!???? ;)

Ahh Epi.....I'm glad you asked... :)

I know you'll reject this answer as it contradicts your works of the law gospel, but I'll offer it anyway.

So what are these deeds of the body that we mortify, remembering that if we don't mortify them then death is the result?

Heb 6:1.
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works

Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Dead works of self-righteousness is what we are to mortify.
Our own righteousness is as filthy rags.

Unfortunately Epi, your gospel of righteousness being judged by perfect obedience to the law is described as 'going about to establish their own righteousness' (Rom 10:3). Like physical Israel, your gospel of works of the law will only result in you not attaining to the law of righteousness (Rom 9:31,32)
Rom 10:4 describes this as 'not submitted unto the righteousness of God'

Epi, repent and mortify the deeds of your body.

 

[Episkopos]

Ahh Epi.....I'm glad you asked... :)

I know you'll reject this answer as it contradicts your works of the law gospel, but I'll offer it anyway.

So what are these deeds of the body that we mortify, remembering that if we don't mortify them then death is the result?

Heb 6:1.
Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works

Heb 9:14
How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

Dead works of self-righteousness is what we are to mortify.
Our own righteousness is as filthy rags.

Unfortunately Epi, your gospel of righteousness being judged by perfect obedience to the law is described as 'going about to establish their own righteousness' (Rom 10:3). Like physical Israel, your gospel of works of the law will only result in you not attaining to the law of righteousness (Rom 9:31,32)
Rom 10:4 describes this as 'not submitted unto the righteousness of God'

Epi, repent and mortify the deeds of your body.

You have it backwards of course. You are defending a grasp of the truth that has no fruit...no visible results in the world.

You should rather invite people to examine your fruit...as a witness of the source of it.

Many declare themselves righteous in Christ who are not yet in Christ. They have short-circuited the walk to justify themselves while they are only halfway there.

Purveyors of the false gospel have set up shop halfway to the entrance of the kingdom.

I'll tell you a story..

Here in Canada we have a history of a rivalry of two European powers for the fur trade. The British set up trading posts in Hudson Bay hoping the native Indians would trek all the way there with their furs. But the French set up trading posts in the interior of the continent so as to intercept that trade thus making the distance so much less. It was very succesful. Very crafty!!

Now let's look at another rivalry...We have God who calls to us to walk in a new life after the ultimate sacrifice...and the devil who intercepts the seeker long before that sacrifice needs to be made. He sets up shop halfway to God. The end result is a pact with the devil...not God.

Many are called but FEW make it all the way to "trade" with the Lord.

If you can't grasp this...then why would Jesus seek to cut off so many who profess faith in Him??? He declares His not knowing MANY who claim Him as Lord. Ironically you think that it is those who go farther along the trail that have missed trading with the right person...

How could people in a church think they have God's riches when they actually had nothing at all from God? Look at the letter to the Laodiceans from Jesus Himself...declaring that the church at the end times was following an illusion and a fantasy. What better warning could we have than this? But people act as if He was walking to someone else who claimed to be rich in God. The Laodiceans were following (are following) a snake oil salesman who assures them they are really in Christ and SAVED!!!!


His sheep do KNOW His voice. If you can't see what I am saying then I fear you are truly lost.

 

[RichardBurger]

People are always looking for the easiest way...the way that is easiest for the flesh to emulate. Romans 8 is very misunderstood by most. We have some great exhortations that are missed...but stand as real markers to the standard of the risen in Christ.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Verses like these are gobbledigook to the carnal man.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

But there is no excuse for missing a basic message as this...

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I know Richard interprets this verse as AFTER having committed a sin...he kills it with his spirit. ;)

This is way out there of course...but how do others of the "faith only" (actually belief or opinion only) crowd explain away the truth of this!!!???? ;)

If the sinful body is dead why do you think you can make it righteous? To God it is dead.

mortify = to feel shame, humiliation, chagrin,
chagrin = to feel grief, sorrow,vexation, a feeling of disappointment, embarrassment

but if ye through the Spirit do feel shame, humiliation, chagrin about the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I wonder what Episkopos thinks the word "mortify" means?

 

[Episkopos]

If the sinful body is dead why do you think you can make it righteous? To God it is dead.

mortify = to feel shame, humiliation, chagrin,
chagrin = to feel grief, sorrow,vexation, a feeling of disappointment, embarrassment

but if ye through the Spirit do feel shame, humiliation, chagrin about the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I wonder what Episkopos thinks the word "mortify" means?

I certaily do!!!! To mortify means to put to death. La mort in French means death...

Rigour mortus means a stiffness after death. So mortify means "deathify!!!!

So unless we put to death the deeds of the body (sin) through the Spirit then we will die. This is what Paul preached. God is not interested in our crocodile tears...He wants us to be holy.

G2289
θaνaτόω
thanatoō
than-at-o'-o
From G2288; to kill (literally or figuratively): - become dead, (cause to be) put to death, kill, mortify.

 

[RichardBurger]

I certaily do!!!! To mortify means to put to death. La mort in French means death...

Rigour mortus means a stiffness after death. So mortify means "deathify!!!!

So unless we put to death the deeds of the body (sin) through the Spirit then we will die. This is what Paul preached. God is not interested in our crocodile tears...He wants us to be holy.

G2289
θaνaτόω
thanatoō
than-at-o'-o
From G2288; to kill (literally or figuratively): - become dead, (cause to be) put to death, kill, mortify.

The problem with you, as I see it, is that you do not want to listen to anything someone else says. What I posted I believe. The difinitions of

mortify = to feel shame, humiliation, chagrin,
chagrin = to feel grief, sorrow,vexation, a feeling of disappointment, embarrassment

were taken out of the dictionary sitting on my desk. Now the fact that you say they don't define the two words is irrevelant. I will take what the dictionary says over what you say all day long.

Everyone that goes to Jesus MUST feel shame, humiliation, chagrin, grief, sorrow,vexation, a feeling of disappointment, embarrassment that they can not keep the law to save themselves and therefore must trust in Jesus to save them.

But the religious only trust in their ability to stop sinning. They are blind to the fact that they can not keep the law and are unwilling to deny themselves and trust in God.

 

[dragonfly]

Hi Richard,

taken out of the dictionary sitting on my desk.

That is risky. Basically, you are turning over the word of God to interpretation by a secular dictionary, and putting your soul in the hands of the world - when there are men of great learning who wouldn't take that risk. They would look in a BIble dictionary, or several Bible dictionaries, to see what other recognised men of God had understood of the original language, looking at all occurrences of a word, before making final determinations.

There are several Bible dictionaries online which are free to use. All you need to do is put the word in google and look through the findings.

 

[Axehead]

The problem with you, as I see it, is that you do not want to listen to anything someone else says. What I posted I believe. The difinitions of

mortify = to feel shame, humiliation, chagrin,
chagrin = to feel grief, sorrow,vexation, a feeling of disappointment, embarrassment

were taken out of the dictionary sitting on my desk. Now the fact that you say they don't define the two words is irrevelant. I will take what the dictionary says over what you say all day long.

Everyone that goes to Jesus MUST feel shame, humiliation, chagrin, grief, sorrow,vexation, a feeling of disappointment, embarrassment that they can not keep the law to save themselves and therefore must trust in Jesus to save them.

But the religious only trust in their ability to stop sinning. They are blind to the fact that they can not keep the law and are unwilling to deny themselves and trust in God.

Richard, I wonder if you could tell me what "deny yourself and pick up your cross" means. Especially the part about "denying self". It seems to go with many things that Paul says, too.

Thanks,
Axehead

 

[Episkopos]

I went to an online dictionary and found what Richard found. Here is the WHOLE page...

mor·ti·fy (môr

t

-f

)
v. mor·ti·fied, mor·ti·fy·ing, mor·ti·fies
v.tr.
1. To cause to experience shame, humiliation, or wounded pride; humiliate.
2. To discipline (one's body and physical appetites) by self-denial or self-inflicted privation.
v.intr.
1. To practice ascetic discipline or self-denial of the body and its appetites.
2. Pathology To undergo mortification; become gangrenous or necrosed.

[Middle English mortifien, to deaden, subdue, from Old French mortifier, from Latin mortific

re, to kill : mors, mort-, death; see mer- in Indo-European roots + -fic

re, -fy.]
The American Heritage® Dictionary of the English Language, Fourth Edition copyright ©2000 by Houghton Mifflin Company. Updated in 2009. Published by All rights reserved.
mortify [ˈmɔːtɪˌfaɪ]
vb -fies, -fying, -fied
1. (tr) to humiliate or cause to feel shame
2. (Christianity / Ecclesiastical Terms) (tr) Christianity to subdue and bring under control by self-denial, disciplinary exercises, etc.
3. (Medicine / Pathology) (intr) to undergo tissue death or become gangrenous
[via Old French from Church Latin mortificāre to put to death, from Latin mors death + facere to do]
mortifier n
mortifying adj
mortifyingly adv
© HarperCollins Publishers 1991, 1994, 1998, 2000, 2003
mortify - From Latin, meaning "kill or subdue the flesh," it originally meant "to kill," then "to destroy the vitality or vigor of," before it took on its present meaning.
See also related terms for subdue


So we see..Richard selects what he wants and throws the rest out. He does this with the bible and also with the dictionary...once he has found something he can hide behind then the rest is ignored.

 

[RichardBurger]

Richard, I wonder if you could tell me what "deny yourself and pick up your cross" means. Especially the part about "denying self". It seems to go with many things that Paul says, too.

Thanks,
Axehead

Denying the self is denying that the self can do what it takes to be saved. Paul denyed his religious training that relied on the self and placed his reliance on Jesus' to save and keep him. Paul picked up his cross when he preached the cross to the world.

To the religious denying self is denying sins of the flesh. They think that is a cross. That is all they think about when they should be teaching the gospel of God's grace as shown in the gospel Jesus gave Paul.

So we see..Richard selects what he wants and throws the rest out. He does this with the bible and also with the dictionary...once he has found something he can hide behind then the rest is ignored.

According to the scriptures, I believe my definitions fit the scriptures below.

Luke 18:10-14
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

The Tax collector felt shame, humiliation, chagrin, grief, sorrow, vexation, a feeling of disappointment, embarrassment. Therefore I believe my defination is the correct ones. You can believe what you wish.

Nothing in this saying, by Jesus, said anything about the tax collector giving up his job as a tax collector nor is there anything said about the tax collector becoming sinless like the Pharisee thought he was.

 

[Episkopos]

Denying the self is denying that the self can do what it takes to be saved. Paul denyed his religious training that relied on the self and placed his reliance on Jesus' to save and keep him. Paul picked up his cross when he preached the cross to the world.

To the religious denying self is denying sins of the flesh. They think that is a cross. That is all they think about when they should be teaching the gospel of God's grace as shown in the gospel Jesus gave Paul.



According to the scriptures, I believe my definitions fit the scriptures below.

Luke 18:10-14
10 "Two men went up to the temple to pray, one a Pharisee and the other a tax collector.
11 The Pharisee stood and prayed thus with himself,'God, I thank You that I am not like other men — extortioners, unjust, adulterers, or even as this tax collector.
12 I fast twice a week; I give tithes of all that I possess.'
13 And the tax collector, standing afar off, would not so much as raise his eyes to heaven, but beat his breast, saying, 'God, be merciful to me a sinner!'
14 I tell you, this man went down to his house justified rather than the other; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and he who humbles himself will be exalted."
NKJV

The Tax collector felt shame, humiliation, chagrin, grief, sorrow, vexation, a feeling of disappointment, embarrassment. Therefore I believe my defination is the correct ones. You can believe what you wish.

Nothing in this saying, by Jesus, said anything about the tax collector giving up his job as a tax collector nor is there anything said about the tax collector becoming sinless like the Pharisee thought he was.

Human reasoning leads to death.

 

[RichardBurger]

Human reasoning leads to death.

Then I certainly won't be listening to you, or are you suggesting you aren't human? Ha! Ha! Some comments shouldn't be made.

 

[Episkopos]

Then I certainly won't be listening to you, or are you suggesting you aren't human? Ha! Ha! Some comments shouldn't be made.

Gal_5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

This is saying the same thing as the verse you misunderstand. To crucify something is to put it to death. Do you see that?

[sup] [/sup]Rom 8:[sup]13 [/sup]for if you are living according to the flesh, you [sup][f][/sup]must die; but if by the Spirit you are putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

 

[RichardBurger]

Gal_5:24 And they that are Christ's have crucified the flesh with the affections and lusts.

This is saying the same thing as the verse you misunderstand. To crucify something is to put it to death. Do you see that?

Rom 8:[sup]13 [/sup]for if you are living according to the flesh, you [sup][f][/sup]must die; but if by the Spirit you """"are""" putting to death the deeds of the body, you will live.

Romans 8:13
13 For if you live according to the flesh you will die; but if by the Spirit you put to death the deeds of the body, you will live. NKJV -- Don't see the word ARE in this scripture.

The word ""are"" with the word "you" in front of it would indicate ""you"" are doing something over time. But the verse says that it is by the Spirit that a person puts to death the deeds of the body; it isn't the work of the flesh.

I have debunked your understanding of what crucifing the flesh means many times and you won't hear it so there is no reason for me to do it again.

 

[Prentis]

The meaning remains the same, you make strawmen arguments... And yet ignore when your own understanding has clearly been debunked and you have clearly changed the meaning of some words to make the verses mean something else, something that fits your own idea of the gospel, but goes against what that verse actually says.

 

[whitestone]

People are always looking for the easiest way...the way that is easiest for the flesh to emulate. Romans 8 is very misunderstood by most. We have some great exhortations that are missed...but stand as real markers to the standard of the risen in Christ.

Rom 8:10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.

Verses like these are gobbledigook to the carnal man.

Rom 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

But there is no excuse for missing a basic message as this...

but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

I know Richard interprets this verse as AFTER having committed a sin...he kills it with his spirit. ;)

This is way out there of course...but how do others of the "faith only" (actually belief or opinion only) crowd explain away the truth of this!!!???? ;)

I don't know what "crowd" I'm of, but the verse is a great verse by which one can monitor their life.

If a man finds himself sinning, then he would know that the Spirit of Christ isn't within Him guiding Him and moving Him. If Jesus was our Holy Spirit in us, the sin wouldn't have a chance to rear its ugly old head out of the watery grave. We must know ourselves personally partaking in the crucifixion death of our old man self. We must die, so that Christ can COME and raise us up in Newness of Life as Sons of God... NOW.

Then we are Sin-less. We find we don't SIN anymore! Because Christ is alive in us and we are dead.
There is no other way it can happen.

"but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. "

Totally :)

Peace
Whitestone

 

[Episkopos]

I don't know what "crowd" I'm of, but the verse is a great verse by which one can monitor their life.

If a man finds himself sinning, then he would know that the Spirit of Christ isn't within Him guiding Him and moving Him. If Jesus was our Holy Spirit in us, the sin wouldn't have a chance to rear its ugly old head out of the watery grave. We must know ourselves personally partaking in the crucifixion death of our old man self. We must die, so that Christ can COME and raise us up in Newness of Life as Sons of God... NOW.

Then we are Sin-less. We find we don't SIN anymore! Because Christ is alive in us and we are dead.
There is no other way it can happen.

"but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live. "

Totally :)

Peace
Whitestone

Amen!!! You have the testimony of Christ! This is not so common these days!

 

[whitestone]

It is only a matter of letting Christ live, be the Man in me. The Victor over temptations. I sure could never do it so I had to die! There was no two ways about it. Only then after "me", that old son of perdition 'fell away' into the waters of baptism and died and got OFF the throne... Now HE has Come and Now HE sits on His Throne as King in HIS Temple Body of my flesh that HE Bought with the Precious Price of His OWN Blood, I belong to HIM...

...sin has no part in this Kingdom of God that I AM in Christ Jesus in me.

How can I even hold back in praising Jesus for this deliverance!

Maranatha Hallelujah

 

[Episkopos]

It is only a matter of letting Christ live, be the Man in me. The Victor over temptations. I sure could never do it so I had to die! There was no two ways about it. Only then after "me", that old son of perdition 'fell away' into the waters of baptism and died and got OFF the throne... Now HE has Come and Now HE sits on His Throne as King in HIS Temple Body of my flesh that HE Bought with the Precious Price of His OWN Blood, I belong to HIM...

...sin has no part in this Kingdom of God that I AM in Christ Jesus in me.

How can I even hold back in praising Jesus for this deliverance!

Maranatha Hallelujah

All praise to God! :)