Is The Book Of Revelations Still Sealed?

[ewq1938]

Still no scriptural support for this false secret rapture.

Song of Solomon 2

8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

Use common sense if nothing more. Plenty of people see a pretribulation rapture. Plently of people see a post trib or pre wrath rapture. They just don't understand that they are both right.

 

[Ronald D Milam]

The delusion came as a result of unbelief, of believing a lie rather than what Jesus quite clearly disclosed, saying He was coming "quickly" and regarding "the things which must shortly take place."

I think I can see one faulty notion here, and this notion will carry a person down wrong paths.

So, we can look at the bible as a whole, God tells us to do it that way, thus if we misinterpret one verse somewhere, we don't go down a wrong path altogether. These things can happen when we are interpreting scriptures written in one language(Koine Greek), trans-scribed into another language (Old English) which a lot of people can't even understand. If we look at the Greek root words used we can see an odd thing in Rev. 1:1, there are two Greek words where SHORTLY is used, but they came up with one English word. Gay means happy to me and my Dad's generation, but something else in todays world, point being words morph. I will show you why SHORTLY doesn't mean soon but instead in a short burst of time as in an eyelash blinking etc.

My 1611 KJV Original online Old English bible with links to Strong's etc.

Reuelation 1:1 The Reuelation 602 of Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 which 3739 God 2316 gaue 1325 z5656 vnto him, 846 to shewe 1166 z5658 vnto his y846 x848 seruants 1401 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 shortly 1722 5034 come to passe; 1096 z5635 and 2532 he sent 649 z5660 and signified 4591 z5656 [it] by 1223 his y846 x848 Angel 32 vnto his y846 x848 seruant 1401 Iohn, 2491

Notice SHORTLY hat two numbers behind it, so the interpreters used the word shortly in place of two Greek Koine words. Lets look at those words.

#1722 ἐν en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time
or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or
constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between
G1519 and G1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)


A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); "in", at, (up-) on, by, etc.:
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#5034 τάχος tachos {takh'-os}
from the same as G5036; TDNT - n/a; n n
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) quickness, speed
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So, its not shortly as in soon, but shortly as in in a brief space of time !! IN HASTE.

So, at a future point in time, which only the Father knows (EN) I will come (TACHOS) in haste when I return.

TACHOS is where we get the English word Tachometer from, as in Zoom, zoom, zoom. So, the word shortly never meant soon, it means in a SHORT BURST OF TIME.

 

[michaelvpardo]

what is your point Michael?

That would be that you're inclined to mishandle scripture to deride professing Christians who offer scripture to support their point of view, while offering nothing but your opinions about other people.
Have you offered scripture anywhere on this site to bolster your negative opinions on those who believe the word of God, or is your entire testimony just a lot of trash talk?

 

[The Light]

Still no scriptural support for this false secret rapture.

8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

9 My beloved is like a roe or a young hart: behold, he standeth behind our wall, he looketh forth at the windows, shewing himself through the lattice.

10 My beloved spake, and said unto me, Rise up, my love, my fair one, and come away.

11 For, lo, the winter is past, the rain is over and gone;

12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

13 The fig tree putteth forth her green figs, and the vines with the tender grape give a good smell. Arise, my love, my fair one, and come away.

14 O my dove, that art in the clefts of the rock, in the secret places of the stairs, let me see thy countenance, let me hear thy voice; for sweet is thy voice, and thy countenance is comely.

Just more proof of the secret pretribulation rapture. There's a reason that Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

 

[ewq1938]

Just more proof of the secret pretribulation rapture. There's a reason that Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood.

That passage has nothing to do with a secret rapture. That's very obvious.

 

[quietthinker]

st

That would be that you're inclined to mishandle scripture to deride professing Christians who offer scripture to support their point of view, while offering nothing but your opinions about other people.
Have you offered scripture anywhere on this site to bolster your negative opinions on those who believe the word of God, or is your entire testimony just a lot of trash talk?

straw man Michael, straw man!

 

[The Light]

That passage has nothing to do with a secret rapture. That's very obvious.

What's very obvious is that the Lord himself comes for His Church just as 1 THES 4 says. What's obvious is the that Noah is in the ark 7 days before the flood even as the Church will be in heaven 7 years before wrath.

Likewise also, what's obvious is the He will send His angels to gather the elect from heaven and earth immediately after the tribulation of those days just before the wrath of God, even as the very day Lot left Sodom destruction came.

What's very obvious is that Jacob had two brides even as the Lord has two brides. What's obvious is that the fig tree has two harvests. What's obvious is that the Lord will come again at the 7th trumpet.

What's obvious is that one coming plus one coming plus one coming equals three comings, clearly shown in the Word of God.

 

[ewq1938]

What's very obvious is that the Lord himself comes for His Church just as 1 THES 4 says.

Yes and there is nothing secret or quiet about it and it takes place when the Great Tribulation has ended, not before it starts.

The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven(second coming reference): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture ie: a gathering)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.


A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

 

[ScottA]

I think I can see one faulty notion here, and this notion will carry a person down wrong paths.

So, we can look at the bible as a whole, God tells us to do it tat way, thus if we misinterpret one verse somewhere, we don't go down a wrong path altogether. These things can happen when we are interpreting scriptures written in on e language(Koine Greek), trans-scribed into another language (Old English) which a lot of people can't even understand. If we look at the Greek root words used we can see an odd thing in Rev. 1:1, there are two Greek words where SHORTLY is used, but they came up with one English word. Gay means happy to me and my Dad's generation, but something else in todays world, point being words morph. I will show you why SHORTLY doesn't mean soon but instead in a short burst of time as in an eyelash blinking etc.

My 1611 KJV Original online Old English bible with links to Strong's etc.

Reuelation 1:1 The Reuelation 602 of Iesus 2424 Christ, 5547 which 3739 God 2316 gaue 1325 z5656 vnto him, 846 to shewe 1166 z5658 vnto his y846 x848 seruants 1401 things which 3739 must 1163 z5748 shortly 1722 5034 come to passe; 1096 z5635 and 2532 he sent 649 z5660 and signified 4591 z5656 [it] by 1223 his y846 x848 Angel 32 vnto his y846 x848 seruant 1401 Iohn, 2491

Notice SHORTLY hat two numbers behind it, so the interpreters used the word shortly in place of two Greek Koine words. Lets look at those words.

#1722 ἐν en {en}
a primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time
or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or
constructively), i.e. a relation of rest (intermediate between
G1519 and G1537); TDNT - 2:537,233; prep
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)


A primary preposition denoting (fixed) position (in place, time or state), and (by implication) instrumentality (medially or constructively), that is, a relation of rest (intermediate between G1519 and G1537); "in", at, (up-) on, by, etc.:
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)
----------------------------------------------------------------------------------

#5034 τάχος tachos {takh'-os}
from the same as G5036; TDNT - n/a; n n
—Greek Word Study (Transliteration-Pronunciation Etymology & Grammar)
1) quickness, speed
—Thayer's (New Testament Greek-English Lexicon)

From the same as G5036; a brief space (of time), that is, (with G1722 prefixed) in haste:— + quickly, + shortly, + speedily.
—Strong's (Greek Dictionary of the New Testament)

So, its not shortly as in soon, but shortly as in in a brief space of time !! IN HASTE.

So, at a future point in time, which only the Father knows (EN) I will come (TACHOS) in haste when I return.

TACHOS is where we get the English word Tachometer from, as in Zoom, zoom, zoom. So, the word shortly never meant soon, it means in a SHORT BURST OF TIME.

As I said...it is absolutely marvelous how you all explain it all away!

That is why I gave you two passages. Even so, you did not even take the one far enough. γίνομαι G1096 denotes the context, as: "Be."

But I digress, all language has been confused and must be spiritually discerned.

You have two options:

1. See what is upon you and change, or;
2. Stay the course and be numbered as such.

 

[michaelvpardo]

st

straw man Michael, straw man!

Carnal mind, quietthinker, carnal mind. Perhaps you should try quiet believing and renew your mind.

 

[Timtofly]

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

You added the word "great" to God's Word. Jesus said the tribulation of those days. Jesus did not say after the great tribulation.

The first 4 Seals is about the tribulation of those days. 2 billion people die. The great tribulation is when 4 to 5 billion people die during the Trumpets and Thunders. There has been great tribulation since the Cross, sometimes more intense for some and not others. But not like the great tribulation where 75% of humans are killed in a really short time frame. Jesus and the angels are harvesting souls, so Jesus is already on earth during this final harvest, of unprecedented tribulation. Matthew 13:37 declares Jesus as the Son of man is also sowing the seed that is harvested by the angels. Jesus is directly responsible for who is the wheat harvested at this time. Just like Jesus as Prince separates whom He chose as sheep from the goats, Jesus claims many Gentiles as His own harvest of wheat, while Satan claims the tares for himself. But this harvest will all be completed by the time the 7th Trumpet starts to sound. Christ and the angels are on earth during the 6 Trumpets and 7 Thunders. Revelation 14:4

"These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb."

The 144k are part of this gathering still on earth protected from the torment others are experiencing. They are on earth the whole time with Jesus who is on the earth this whole time.

 

[The Light]

Yes and there is nothing secret or quiet about it

Only His sheep will hear His voice when He comes.

Song of Solomon 2
8 The voice of my beloved! behold, he cometh leaping upon the mountains, skipping upon the hills.

What voice is for others to hear?

Song of Solomon 2
12 The flowers appear on the earth; the time of the singing of birds is come, and the voice of the turtle is heard in our land;

The voice of the turtle is heard in the land. It's a secret coming for those that are watching for His appearance.

and it takes place when the Great Tribulation has ended, not before it starts.

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal before the wrath of God begins. 2 Thes 2 proves that the gathering from heaven and earth begins BEFORE the day of the Lord, the day of his Wrath.

2 Thes 2
Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,

2 That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.

The rapture is after the Great Tribulation has ended, after Christ's second coming begins, after the resurrection of the dead in Christ.

Of course. And yet you do not understand that the Great Tribulation is over at the 6th seal and the second coming happens then also. However, He does not set His feet on the Mount of Olives, He remains in the clouds and sends His angels.
Rev 14
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.

15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.

16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.

17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.

18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.

19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.

1Th 4:13 But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.
1Th 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.(second coming reference)
1Th 4:15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord (second coming reference) shall not prevent them which are asleep.
1Th 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven (second coming reference) with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: (the resurrection of the dead in Christ)
1Th 4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. (the rapture)

The resurrection only happens at the second coming and the second coming can only happen after the trib has ended, and since the verses tell us the rapture happens AFTER the resurrection and second coming means these verses decisively prove the rapture is post-trib not pre-trib.

It's that simple.

1 Thes 4:16 is about the rapture of the Church. This happens BEFORE the SEALS ARE OPENED. The Church is in heaven in Rev 4 and 5.

Christ also spoke of the rapture but used the wording of saints being gathered together, and no surprise, placed it after the end of the Great Tribulation.

Mat 24:29 Immediately after the tribulation (great tribulation has ended) of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
Mat 24:30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven(second coming reference): and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming (second coming reference) in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.
Mat 24:31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect (*another way to speak of the Rapture) from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

*(also see 2nd Thessalonians 2:1 for the same language regarding the Rapture ie: a gathering)

Timing of the gathering/rapturing is exactly the same in these two passages. In both we have saved Christians being moved from one place to another and in both that happens after the tribulation has ended and when the second coming has commenced.


A rapture before the second coming and before the resurrection is scripturally impossible and the second coming cannot happen until the tribulation has ended, Mat 24:29-30.

The gathering from heaven and earth is the second rapture. I happens at the 6th seal. This is marked by the cosmic signs of the sun, moon and stars.

Matt 24

29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:

30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

31 And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.

The coming of Jesus in Matt 24 does not occur at Rev 19, it occurs at Rev 6.

Rev 6

12 And I beheld when he had opened the sixth seal, and, lo, there was a great earthquake; and the sun became black as sackcloth of hair, and the moon became as blood;

13 And the stars of heaven fell unto the earth, even as a fig tree casteth her untimely figs, when she is shaken of a mighty wind.

14 And the heaven departed as a scroll when it is rolled together; and every mountain and island were moved out of their places.

15 And the kings of the earth, and the great men, and the rich men, and the chief captains, and the mighty men, and every bondman, and every free man, hid themselves in the dens and in the rocks of the mountains;

16 And said to the mountains and rocks, Fall on us, and hide us from the face of him that sitteth on the throne, and from the wrath of the Lamb:

Jesus returns at the sixth seal. All eyes will see His coming. It is the gathering from heaven and earth, just BEFOE WRATH. Can you not see these things?

 

[farouk]

That reminded me of Noah and how he cursed Canaan, Ham's son.
Hey pops, if you hadn't messed up, I coulda been somebody...
Was this to cause a division between the father and the son, so the son wouldn't walk in his father's footsteps?
Knowing if he did the same then his children would pay the price?

I know the bible says the father will pay the price for his own sin...
it also says that curses will carry on over the 3rd and 4th generations.

just thinking..
hugs

@Ziggy It's good to know that blessings in Christ, coming by faith, are not subject to earthly genealogies....

 

[Ziggy]

@Ziggy It's good to know that blessings in Christ, coming by faith, are not subject to earthly genealogies....

There's a lot of hand me down blessings in the OT.
Thinking of Jacob and the twelve tribes of Israel.
Gen 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

But I agree with you, Our blessings come from Christ, not our parents.
Hugs

 

[farouk]

There's a lot of hand me down blessings in the OT.
Thinking of Jacob and the twelve tribes of Israel.
Gen 49:28 All these are the twelve tribes of Israel: and this is it that their father spake unto them, and blessed them; every one according to his blessing he blessed them.

But I agree with you, Our blessings come from Christ, not our parents.
Hugs

@Ziggy Kind of shows one of the differences between the Old and New Testaments, right?

 

[Ziggy]

@Ziggy Kind of shows one of the differences between the Old and New Testaments, right?

Did God honor Jacob's blessings?

 

[farouk]

Did God honor Jacob's blessings?

@Ziggy Israel = earthly blessings.

church = heavenly blessings.

Some of Israel were justified also (Hebrews 11).

(This would be an dispensational understading.)

 

[ewq1938]

The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal before the wrath of God begins.

Wrong. The Great Tribulation starts LONG after the seals, in the 6th trumpet. The Great Tribulation ends when the 7th trump sounds, and that is when the wrath of God begins:

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here it clearly states that God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.

 

[The Light]

Wrong. The Great Tribulation starts LONG after the seals, in the 6th trumpet. The Great Tribulation ends when the 7th trump sounds, and that is when the wrath of God begins:

I already showed where the cosmic signs of Matthew 24 mark the coming of Jesus at the 6th seal. The tribulation is over. Are you not understanding "Immediately after the tribulation of those days? That means the tribulation is over at the 6th. Look at the 5th seal. It is the great tribulation.

Rev 11:15 And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.

Are you reading right past "The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord? Do you not understand what that means? When the kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, that means Jesus has returned and defeated the armies of this world. WRATH IS OVER.

Rev 11:16 And the four and twenty elders, which sat before God on their seats, fell upon their faces, and worshipped God,
Rev 11:17 Saying, We give thee thanks, O Lord God Almighty, which art, and wast, and art to come; because thou hast taken to thee thy great power, and hast reigned.
Rev 11:18 And the nations were angry, and thy wrath is come, and the time of the dead, that they should be judged, and that thou shouldest give reward unto thy servants the prophets, and to the saints, and them that fear thy name, small and great; and shouldest destroy them which destroy the earth.

Here it clearly states that God's wrath has come after the 7th trump sounds. Clearly God's wrath hadn't been coming for a long time before this or else the statement would be meaningless.

Exactly. Wrath has come at the 7th trumpet. Wrath begins at the 1st trumpet and ends at the 7th trumpet. It is over. It is finished. The dead are judged and rewards are given.

There is a difference between tribulation and wrath. The great tribulation is over at the 6th seal as evidenced by cosmic signs. Then the wrath of God begins. The wrath of God is over when the 7th trumpet sounds.

 

[quietthinker]

I see the vacuum cleaner is doing its job sucking people in to a bag of darkness and dust!