Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

[ReChoired]

I know you were speaking about those who are thrown into the lake of fire. I'm saying that not even those who are thrown into the lake of fire have consciousness, they instead are destroyed out of existence just as Hades and death are destroyed out of existence when thrown into the lake of fire.

Ok.

These might be helpful to you and others:

The Final Events Study Guide (PDF)

The Ten Commandments Study Guides (PDF)

The Final Events Of Bible Prophecy Magazine (PDF)

The Final Events Of Bible Prophecy Magazine – AFScan (PDF)

The Rest Of Your Life – Sabbath Magazine – AFScan (PDF)

The Day Of The LORD Magazine – AFScan (PDF)

The Afterlife Mystery – AFScan (PDF)

Daniel & Revelation Magazine – AFScan (PDF)

 

[justbyfaith]

The scriptures however say there is going to be a resurrection of righteous and unrighteous. Why would God resurrect the unrighteous if as people say these unrighteous have been judged worthy of such a punishment as fiery torment.

Yet God does resurrect them, unto a resurrection of condemnation...unto shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:29, Daniel 12:2.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Ok.

These might be helpful to you and others:

The Final Events Study Guide (PDF)

The Ten Commandments Study Guides (PDF)

The Final Events Of Bible Prophecy Magazine (PDF)

The Final Events Of Bible Prophecy Magazine – AFScan (PDF)

The Rest Of Your Life – Sabbath Magazine – AFScan (PDF)

The Day Of The LORD Magazine – AFScan (PDF)

The Afterlife Mystery – AFScan (PDF)

Daniel & Revelation Magazine – AFScan (PDF)

You have the literature you use for study and that's fine, but for me no one using the scriptures have proved to me from the scriptures that what I believe and say on the matter of this particular subject that I'm wrong. I understand I'm an imperfect person like everyone else and I'm not infallible when it comes to my beliefs and how I reason on the scriptures but that's true of everyone else. So a person has to prove to me from the scriptures that what I believe isn't true. I'm sorry but so far as I can see the majority of the people seem to believe, Satan when he said to Eve she wouldn't die. To me people believing that a part of the person survives what they call the physical death is basically a twist of the lie Satan told Eve, "you will not die."

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yet God does resurrect them, unto a resurrection of condemnation...unto shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:29, Daniel 12:2.

Yes, but all that means to me is that all these people who believe that humans have something, some part of them that survives death and goes either to heaven, which is a beautiful place or hell which people say is a place of fiery torment are interpreting the scriptures wrong. So those God resurrects back to life, whether righteous or unrighteous God has judged worthy of having life again. The word resurrection means, "raising up from the lifeless condition of death." Simply put death is the opposite of life. These person's whether they are righteous or unrighteous are not living beings(people who have life) waiting for a resurrection. These person's that are resurrected whether righteous or unrighteous are in Gods memory and when the Resurrection begins he remembers them and resurrects them back to life.

 

[mjrhealth]

I doubt that without the grace of God, I could do anything of any worth. How could I boast then of myself?

Yep, to put this on context.

Jesus died for the sins of all men, the sacrificial lamb. that was slain before the beginning of time, the perfect sacrifice, the only one God could accept, now if a man was going to be saved by his works after he got saved,

1. Than Jesus sacrifice was not enough.
2. That makes our works greater than His as if they ever could be.
3. God would have to tell Jesus, that He didnt do enough, so i must judge this man by his works.
I can imagine Jesus, But God, He gave His life for me accepted my Death and payment for His sins, was that just a waste of time,

well apparently to many it was.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Yep, to put this on context.

Jesus died for the sins of all men, the sacrificial lamb. that was slain before the beginning of time, the perfect sacrifice, the only one God could accept, now if a man was going to be saved by his works after he got saved,

1. Than Jesus sacrifice was not enough.
2. That makes our works greater than His as if they ever could be.
3. God would have to tell Jesus, that He didnt do enough, so i must judge this man by his works.
I can imagine Jesus, But God, He gave His life for me accepted my Death and payment for His sins, was that just a waste of time,

well apparently to many it was.

I agree with everything you said except that I don't believe the lamb who is Jesus was slain before the beginning of time, the lamb was slain yes, I just don't believe he was slain before the beginning of time. You'll most likely come back with some scriptures to prove your point on this subject, just understand that the scriptures are from God, the way you interpret them on this subject or reason on them, isn't. It's how you interpret them on this subject or reason with them I disagree with.

 

[mjrhealth]

I agree with everything you said except that I don't believe the lamb who is Jesus was slain before the beginning of time, the lamb was slain yes, I just don't believe he was slain before the beginning of time. You'll most likely come back with some scriptures to prove your point on this subject, just understand that the scriptures are from God, the way you interpret them on this subject or reason on them, isn't. It's how you interpret them on this subject or reason with them I disagree with.

God doesnt live in Time we do, thats why He knows the beginning from the end.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

 

[Enoch111]

...I just don't believe he was slain before the beginning of time. You'll most likely come back with some scriptures to prove your point on this subject, just understand that the scriptures are from God...

Since the Bible clearly states that the Lamb of God was slain from before the foundation of the world, and you say that the Scriptures are from God, you don't really believe what you just stated.

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you... (1 Pet 1:18-20)

John the Baptist spoke of the finished work of Christ as though it were an already accomplished fact: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn 1:29)

Therefore God saw Christ as the Lamb already slain from before the foundation of the world. Hence all the prophetic passages in the Bible predicting the crucifixion of Christ from about 4000 years before it took place.

 

[Nancy]

God doesnt live in Time we do, thats why He knows the beginning from the end.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

Pretty clear to me! How does one not see this very clear scripture??

 

[Getitright]

I'm asking you that when God destroys someone not worthy of life like he did when he judged and destroyed people at the time of the flood or at Sodom and Gomorrah or when he judges and destroys them at armmageddon don't you think that judgement to be final? Is there something wrong with God's judgement when he is the one who judged these people not worthy of life? I understand that there is going to be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous, the scriptures show us that, but I don't think that those that God has already judged as not worthy of life to be in that resurrection. So the unrighteous that are resurrected must be those that God has judged worthy of a resurrection. Resurrection means resurrected back to life. Why would God give the unrighteous life if God judged them unworthy of life? I don't believe God destroys or put people to death without judging rather or not they deserved to be destroyed or put to death.

Hi Barney,

I believe everyone who has lived will be resurrected. Jesus said a time was coming when all who are in the graves will hear the voice of the Son of God and come forth.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

I believe they will be raised and receive punishment.

 

[Getitright]

What might that feel like?

I guess that depends on how they die.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

God doesnt live in Time we do, thats why He knows the beginning from the end.

Rev_13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

I understand you have your interpretation/definition etc of what, "before the foundation of the world," means. I just don't agree with your interpretation/definition or how you reason on the scriptures regarding the phrase "before the foundation of the world." Other Bibles translate this phrase, "before the founding of the world." I know you and many others think this phrase is talking about before the beginning of time and so forth, but I disagree. I believe this phrase, "before the foundation/founding of the world is speaking about after Adam and Eve sinned but before they started producing children.

 

[ReChoired]

You have the literature you use for study and that's fine, but for me no one using the scriptures have proved to me from the scriptures that what I believe and say on the matter of this particular subject that I'm wrong. I understand I'm an imperfect person like everyone else and I'm not infallible when it comes to my beliefs and how I reason on the scriptures but that's true of everyone else. So a person has to prove to me from the scriptures that what I believe isn't true. I'm sorry but so far as I can see the majority of the people seem to believe, Satan when he said to Eve she wouldn't die. To me people believing that a part of the person survives what they call the physical death is basically a twist of the lie Satan told Eve, "you will not die."

Barney, I am not saying that a 'part of the person survives' the Lake of Fire. They are annihilated, completely. Gone forever. What we were speaking about is the 'torment' leading up to that point in time that they cease to be in Revelation 20. All the finally impenitent who have ever lived will be raised at the end of the 1,000 years, the resurrection of damnation, and will receive the execution of justice, and fire will rain down and come up from beneath, just as with the flood of Noah, wherein some perish instantly, and others, like the devil, will last longer, and the devil the longest, and yet even he, will finally become ashes.

The links to the material, demonstrate this, using scripture. They are meant as an help, pointing out the scriptures on this subject, not a replacement to scripture.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Since the Bible clearly states that the Lamb of God was slain from before the foundation of the world, and you say that the Scriptures are from God, you don't really believe what you just stated.

18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers; 19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you... (1 Pet 1:18-20)

John the Baptist spoke of the finished work of Christ as though it were an already accomplished fact: The next day John seeth Jesus coming unto him, and saith, Behold the Lamb of God, which taketh away the sin of the world. (Jn 1:29)

Therefore God saw Christ as the Lamb already slain from before the foundation of the world. Hence all the prophetic passages in the Bible predicting the crucifixion of Christ from about 4000 years before it took place.

What I know is you will twist what a person says by only quoting only part of what I wrote. If you going to quote me quote all of it not just part of it. Also admit you're like the rest of us and you're an imperfect human like the rest of us and you're not infallible when it comes to your beliefs and the way you reason on the scriptures. You have a right to your beliefs and the way you reason on the scriptures but since you're like the rest of us an you're an imperfect person who isn't infallible therefore what you believe isn't necessarily true , nor is it necessarily true how you reason on the scriptures.

With all the scriptures that you quoted to me you haven't in any way proved from those scriptures that what you believe about them or how you interpret them or reason on them is proving your point. All I see you doing is interpreting them according to your beliefs and reasoning on the the scriptures and that's your right. I'm not going to fault you for exercising your right but I don't have to agree with you if I truly don't agree with you. I understand what many people believe concerning that phrase, "before the foundation of the world," some Bibles translate it, "before the founding of the world." But that doesn't mean, at least if you go by all the scriptures, that phrase means before the beginning of time. It can mean after Adam and Eve sinned but before they produced children.

 

[ReChoired]

Yet God does resurrect them, unto a resurrection of condemnation...unto shame and everlasting contempt.

John 5:29, Daniel 12:2.

Actually Daniel 12:2 is referring to the special resurrection, not the 2nd great resurrection of damnation. In John 5:29, there is the First Great resurrection of only the Righteous, at the beginning of the 1,000 years. There is also the Second Great resurrection of only the finally impenitent at the end of the 1,000 years. Daniel 12:2, has "some" of both, righteous and finally impenitent raised specially to witness Jesus return at the 2nd Advent, which takes place before either the First or Second Great resurrections. See these references.

E: [a special resurrection, some righteous, some wicked - to witness Christ coming in Power in Glory to fulfill His Word] Daniel 12:1-3,12; Matthew 26:64; Mark 14:62; Revelation 1:7, 14:13

F: [[first great] resurrection [of the saints, just, life, before/at start of the 1000 years when Christ Jesus returns in Power and Glory], raised] 1 Samuel 2:6; Job 14:12-14, 19:26; Hosea 13:14; Matthew 22:31; Mark 12:18,23,25; Luke 14:14, 20:35,36; John 5:29a, 6:25,28,29,39,40,44,54, 11:24,25; Acts 4:2, 17:31,32, 23:6, 24:15a,21; Romans 6:5,8, 8:11; 1 Corinthians 15:12,13,16,20,21,23,29,32,35,42,43,52-55; Philippians 3:10,11; Colossians 3:3; 1 Thessalonians 4:16-17; 2 Timothy 2:18, 4:1; Hebrews 6:2, 11:35; Revelation 20:5b,6; [All the Holy "Clouds" of Angels [the "reapers"] with Him] Psalms 68:17, 104:3; Isaiah 66:15; Matthew 13:39,49, 16:27, 24:30, 25:31,51, 26:64; Mark 8:38, 13:27; Luke 9:26, 21:27; Acts 1:9-11; 1 Thessalonians 3:13, 4:16-17; Hebrews 1:7; Revelation 1:7, 12:7

G: [2nd Advent/Coming in Power and Glory, with all the holy angels, even unto the 3rd] Zechariah 14:1-7 [3rd]; Daniel 2:35,44,45, 7:14,22,27, 8:25, 12:1-3; Matthew 19:28, 24:30, 25:31; Mark 13:26; Luke 21:27; 1 Corinthians 15:43; 2 Thessalonians 1:9

H: [[second great] resurrection [of the wicked, unjust, damnation, at the end/close of the 1000 years, when Christ Jesus and all of the Saints [then immortal] descend to Earth in New Jerusalem upon the Mount of Olives, and the Great White Throne Judgment takes place; Zechariah 14; Revelation 20]] John 5:29b; Acts 17:31, 24:15b; Revelation 20:5a

I: [resurrection of unjust/damnation takes place on earth] Revelation 20:5,7-15

 

[mjrhealth]

I understand you have your interpretation/definition etc of what, "before the foundation of the world," means. I just don't agree with your interpretation/definition or how you reason on the scriptures regarding the phrase "before the foundation of the world." Other Bibles translate this phrase, "before the founding of the world." I know you and many others think this phrase is talking about before the beginning of time and so forth, but I disagree. I believe this phrase, "before the foundation/founding of the world is speaking about after Adam and Eve sinned but before they started producing children.

When do you thing the beginning of the world means,

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Look one day, time has begun and the foundation of the world was laid. No that it matters. Pointless discussion.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Hi Barney,

I believe everyone who has lived will be resurrected. Jesus said a time was coming when all who are in the graves will hear the voice of the Son of God and come forth.

28 Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,
29 And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. (Jn. 5:28-29 KJV)

I believe they will be raised and receive punishment.[/QUOTE\]


Actually Jesus said all those in the "Memorial tombs" will hear his voice and come out. Which the word Memorial is talking about memory and it's God memory we are speaking about.

Also the Scriptures say the wages of sin is death not torture. If the wages of sin is death then when you die you pay for every sin you've committed. So I don't think people will be resurrected for the things they have already payed for. God is the one who decides who gets a resurrection. As I said before, the word resurrection means, raising up from the lifeless condition of death."

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

Barney, I am not saying that a 'part of the person survives' the Lake of Fire. They are annihilated, completely. Gone forever. What we were speaking about is the 'torment' leading up to that point in time that they cease to be in Revelation 20. All the finally impenitent who have ever lived will be raised at the end of the 1,000 years, the resurrection of damnation, and will receive the execution of justice, and fire will rain down and come up from beneath, just as with the flood of Noah, wherein some perish instantly, and others, like the devil, will last longer, and the devil the longest, and yet even he, will finally become ashes.

The links to the material, demonstrate this, using scripture. They are meant as an help, pointing out the scriptures on this subject, not a replacement to scripture.

I believe there will be a resurrection of the righteous and unrighteous during the 1000 years but not after the 1000 years if that's what you're saying. I believe those who are thrown into the lake of fire are those that after Satan and his demons are released from the Abyss after the thousand years for a short period of time are those humans who were born during the 1000 years and those who were considered unrighteous when resurrected during the 1000 years but are now perfect humans who have been tempted to follow Satan. I believe that because those who were born during the 1000 years and haven't been tempted by Satan and those unrighteous when resurrected during the 1000 years who also haven't been tempted by Satan to see if they will remain in the truth, many of these will sin. These are the ones who will be destroyed by fire from heaven and thrown into the lake of fire along with Satan and his demons and where death and Hades was thrown into.

 

[BARNEY BRIGHT]

When do you thing the beginning of the world means,

Gen 1:1 In the beginning God created the heaven and the earth.
Gen 1:2 And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep. And the Spirit of God moved upon the face of the waters.
Gen 1:3 And God said, Let there be light: and there was light.
Gen 1:4 And God saw the light, that it was good: and God divided the light from the darkness.
Gen 1:5 And God called the light Day, and the darkness he called Night. And the evening and the morning were the first day.

Look one day, time has begun and the foundation of the world was laid. No that it matters. Pointless discussion.

Obviously you didn't read what I said concerning the phrase, "before the foundation of the world and what it means. You seem to believe that it's talking about before God created this planet, which is your right to believe, I just don't agree with that. I believe the phrase, "before the foundation of the world," is talking about a time period after Adam and Eve sinned but before they started having children.

 

[Getitright]

I don't recall seeing anything in Scripture about memorial tombs. I wasn't implying torture. Unless you can show where these memorial tombs are mentioned I'll have to stick with, all who hear His voice will come out of their graves. I've not seen anything in Scripture that would indicate anyone is exempt.