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Featured Is the doctrine of Eternal Conscious Torment, biblical or not?

Discussion in 'Christian Theology Forum' started by Hobie, Dec 28, 2019.

  1. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    You are an expert at trying to evade what Jesus say by citing Paul and making him contradict Jesus.

    Our "salvation" does not depend on works. It could not, because by ourselves, we could not change our sinful nature to be saved; but Jesus can and will change that sinful nature. By his grace. If we think we can abuse that grace by continuing to sin, we are like dogs returning to their vomit. When Jesus tells us he can -- by grace -- change us and we refuse, we are trampling on the blood he shed on the cross.

    Once Jesus rescues us (not by our works), he expects us to be his servants and start doing his works on his behalf. If we don't, we'll be like the unfaithful servants he condemned and told to "depart" because he never knew them.
    It says right there only the overcomers will inherit all things. Jesus made that possible for us -- and the sinners will have no excuse. Do you seriously think murderers can inherit all things unless they've repented and stopped murdering people? Do you think Jesus will give them grace?
     
  2. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    What might that feel like?
     
  3. ReChoired

    ReChoired Active Member

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    The verses cited clearly show New Jerusalem descended to the very earth at the end time of the 1,000 years:

    Rev 20:9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.​

    The "beloved city" is New Jerusalem, the "camp of the saints" which is then come down to "the earth".

    The city is not a replacement for the sun. That is a misreading of the text:

    Rev_21:23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.

    Isa_24:23 Then the moon shall be confounded, and the sun ashamed, when the LORD of hosts shall reign in mount Zion, and in Jerusalem, and before his ancients gloriously.​

    Notice, the earth still needs the Sun and Moon, as they are still for keeping time and for seasons:

    Isa 66:23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
    Isa 66:24 And they shall go forth, and look upon the carcases of the men that have transgressed against me: for their worm shall not die, neither shall their fire be quenched; and they shall be an abhorring unto all flesh.​

    Notice, it is the "city" (New Jerusalem) itself which "had no need" (not that the Sun and Moon do not still exist and are still not seen therefrom) since God and Jesus are the Light of it. In the City (New Jerusalem), the Sun and Moon would be like a flashlight that is on during broad daylight noon, when compared to the Glory of God which outshines them. You can still see it, but have "no need" therein.

    The phrase to "walk in the light of it", doesn't simply mean 'illumination' (as of Sol (sun) in the sky), but refers to the knowledge, wisdom, etc that comes from it, the life of it, to live without sin. For instance:

    Joh_8:12 Then spake Jesus again unto them, saying, I am the light of the world: he that followeth me shall not walk in darkness, but shall have the light of life.

    Joh_12:35 Then Jesus said unto them, Yet a little while is the light with you. Walk while ye have the light, lest darkness come upon you: for he that walketh in darkness knoweth not whither he goeth.

    1Jn_1:7 But if we walk in the light, as he is in the light, we have fellowship one with another, and the blood of Jesus Christ his Son cleanseth us from all sin.
    New Jerusalem comes "down" from "out of Heaven" to earth:

    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

    Rev 21:2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
    The Nations that are saved shall wall into it, and go through the gates of it:

    Rev 21:25 And the gates of it shall not be shut at all by day: for there shall be no night there.
    Rev 21:26 And they shall bring the glory and honour of the nations into it.​

    There is no "night" in the city, for God dwells in it.

    It is amazing how you "wrest" the enumeration, and change it to miles, causing the meaning of the cubits and their meaning in enumeration to be lost. The 144,000 and the 144 in the walls. Each of us are living (lively) stones.

    The Sun will forever exist, though at the Second Advent the Sun and Moon will be shaken out of their places until the 3rd Advent.

    Jer 31:35 Thus saith the LORD, which giveth the sun for a light by day, and the ordinances of the moon and of the stars for a light by night, which divideth the sea when the waves thereof roar; The LORD of hosts is his name:
    Jer 31:36 If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.​
     
  4. ReChoired

    ReChoired Active Member

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    I see that you love to quote "you" and not scripture as authority for a given point. However, as much as "you" think that "you" are an authority on said point, to me, "you" are not so an authority. The "outer darkness" in Matthew 8:12, 22:13, 25:30, is outside of the "light" of the "Kingdom of Heaven".

    As for "torment", it is limited to the "season".

    Psa_7:9 Oh let the wickedness of the wicked come to an end; but establish the just: for the righteous God trieth the hearts and reins.​
     
  5. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    No im not evading anything, you think your works are going to get you into heaven, boy mens foolish notions.

    Why so angry, is it not Jesus choice to save whom He chooses, you really have no idea about Him do you, too much reading not enough Jesus as usual,

    do you know who He is speaking of...

    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?

    give you a clue

    Luk 9:49 And John answered and said, Master, we saw one casting out devils in thy name; and we forbad him, because he followeth not with us.
    Luk 9:50 And Jesus said unto him, Forbid him not: for he that is not against us is for us.

    many people out there, never called, never asked doing things in His name, should they be rewarded for work they where not given to do.

    As you quoted

    Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.
    Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
    Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.

    and again

    Luk 13:24 Strive to enter in at the strait gate: for many, I say unto you, will seek to enter in, and shall not be able.
    Luk 13:25 When once the master of the house is risen up, and hath shut to the door, and ye begin to stand without, and to knock at the door, saying, Lord, Lord, open unto us; and he shall answer and say unto you, I know you not whence ye are:
    Luk 13:26 Then shall ye begin to say, We have eaten and drunk in thy presence, and thou hast taught in our streets.
    Luk 13:27 But he shall say, I tell you, I know you not whence ye are; depart from me, all ye workers of iniquity.
     
  6. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    I never said works are going to get anyone into Heaven. Stop making things up, please. I said we will be judged by our works. That is what Jesus also said, and you continue to ignore it.
    Jesus judged them by their works! They were workers of iniquity even if they pretended otherwise.
     
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  7. ReChoired

    ReChoired Active Member

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    Luke 16, a Parable, let's begin in Luke 14, and walk through ..

    In Luke 14:1:

    And it came to pass, as he went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees to eat bread on the sabbath day, that they watched him. Luke 14:1

    Whose house does the text say that Jesus went into to "eat bread" and on what day was this done and were there any others present besides the owner of the house?

    According to the text, I read that "he" [Jesus] "went into the house of one of the chief Pharisees" to "eat bread" "on the sabbath day" and there were also "they" which "watched" "him" [Jesus].

    Was the multitude [Luke 14:25 KJB] in the house of the chief Pharisees with Jesus as they ate bread on the sabbdath day? "No."

    Who then is this "they" that were with Jesus and the chief Pharisee in his house? If you will allow me, I would like to cite the next six texts of Luke 14:2-7:

    And, behold, there was a certain man before him which had the dropsy. Luke 14:2

    And Jesus answering spake unto the lawyers and Pharisees, saying, Is it lawful to heal on the sabbath day? Luke 14:3

    And they held their peace. And he took him, and healed him, and let him go; Luke 14:4

    And answered them, saying, Which of you shall have an ass or an ox fallen into a pit, and will not straightway pull him out on the sabbath day? Luke 14:5

    And they could not answer him again to these things. Luke 14:6

    And he put forth a parable to those which were bidden, when he marked how they chose out the chief rooms; saying unto them, Luke 14:7

    According to the text, I read, that there were the following people present in the house of the Chief Pharisee on the sabbath day:

    [1] "The Chief Pharisee", since it was his house and his meal

    [2] "Jesus"

    [3] "a certain man...which had the dropsy..." being "him" who was "healed" by "Jesus"

    [4] "they" which would include 2 specific groups of "those that were bidden" to the meal:


    [4a] "the lawyers"

    [4b] "Pharisees"

    According to the text, I read, that Jesus, after healing the man with the dropsy on the sabbath day, in the house of the chief Pharisee, being also before/in front of the other lawyers and pharisees that were also bidden, spoke "a parable" [singular] unto the pharisees and lawyers present in the house.

    The "parable" [singular] is given to "those" which "were bidden" because of how "Jesus" had seen that "they" when coming in to sit down to eat, "chose out the chief rooms [protoklisias "first class"; places at table]" , is then seen in the next few verses, Luke 14:8-11

    When thou art bidden of any man to a wedding, sit not down in the highest room; lest a more honourable man than thou be bidden of him; Luke 14:8

    And he that bade thee and him come and say to thee, Give this man place; and thou begin with shame to take the lowest room. Luke 14:9

    But when thou art bidden, go and sit down in the lowest room; that when he that bade thee cometh, he may say unto thee, Friend, go up higher: then shalt thou have worship in the presence of them that sit at meat with thee. Luke 14:10

    For whosoever exalteth himself shall be abased; and he that humbleth himself shall be exalted. Luke 14:11

    Jesus then turns from speaking to "they" that "were bidden" to the Chief Pharisees' house and continues by speaking directly to the Chief Pharisee, whose house it was, and this is seen in the next three verses, Luke 14:12-14:

    Then said he also to him that bade him, When thou makest a dinner or a supper, call not thy friends, nor thy brethren, neither thy kinsmen, nor thy rich neighbours; lest they also bid thee again, and a recompence be made thee. Luke 14:12

    But when thou makest a feast, call the poor, the maimed, the lame, the blind: Luke 14:13

    And thou shalt be blessed; for they cannot recompense thee: for thou shalt be recompensed at the resurrection of the just. Luke 14:14

    When will such be "recompensed" according to Jesus? At ones death or "at" "the resurrection of the just"?

    According to the text, I read, that such a person as Jesus speaks of would be "recompensed" "at" "the resurrection of the just".

    What do you think of the "recompensed" and timing thereof, in regards to where we are headed in Luke 16? Please let me know.

    Then after Jesus spake those things to the Chief Pharisee, another at the table which heard those things, speaks to Jesus in Luke 14:15:

    And when one of them that sat at meat with him heard these things, he said unto him, Blessed is he that shall eat bread in the kingdom of God. Luke 14:15

    To which then "Jesus" replies to this "one of them" who was "bidden" in Luke 14:16-24:

    Then said he unto him, A certain man made a great supper, and bade many: Luke 14:16

    And sent his servant at supper time to say to them that were bidden, Come; for all things are now ready. Luke 14:17

    And they all with one consent began to make excuse. The first said unto him, I have bought a piece of ground, and I must needs go and see it: I pray thee have me excused. Luke 14:18

    And another said, I have bought five yoke of oxen, and I go to prove them: I pray thee have me excused. Luke 14:19

    And another said, I have married a wife, and therefore I cannot come. Luke 14:20

    So that servant came, and shewed his lord these things. Then the master of the house being angry said to his servant, Go out quickly into the streets and lanes of the city, and bring in hither the poor, and the maimed, and the halt, and the blind. Luke 14:21

    And the servant said, Lord, it is done as thou hast commanded, and yet there is room. Luke 14:22

    And the lord said unto the servant, Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in, that my house may be filled. Luke 14:23

    For I say unto you, That none of those men which were bidden shall taste of my supper. Luke 14:24

    Would anyone like to disagree that the material in the passages in Luke 14:16-24 are parable?
     
  8. ReChoired

    ReChoired Active Member

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    The Rich Man and Lazarus of Luke 16, comes in a series of Parables after a small discourse to great multitudes really beginning in Luke 14:25

    And there went great multitudes with him: and he turned, and said unto them, Luke 14:25

    ... and also in Luke 15:1-2, to tax collectors, sinners who surrounded Him and to Pharisees and Scribes who were complaining...

    Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him. Luke 15:1

    And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them. Luke 15:2

    ... and as Jesus heard the Pharisees and Scribes complaining and so HE speaks unto them in parables beginning in Luke 15:3

    And he spake this parable unto them, saying, Luke 15:3

    ...and continues with the Parable of the "man with the 100 Sheep who had one lost" from Luke 15:4-7, and then begins another Parable in Luke 15:8-10 about the "Woman who Lost a Coin" Luke 15:11

    [though Jesus is still speaking in Parables, in both instances in the scriptures it does not specifically say that the words to come after verses 8 or 11 were Parable, but yet that is because the scripture had already made clear that this was what Jesus was doing from verse 3]

    And he said, A certain man had two sons: Luke 15:11

    ...which then begins the Parable from Luke 15:11-32 about the "Man who had Two Sons" [Prodigal Sons Parable].

    Jesus then turns to His disciples and continues in Luke 16:1, with yet another parable, the parable of the "God and Mammon"

    And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods. Luke 16:1

    ...and the word "also" joins the previous parables with this parable along with what further continues ["they heard all these things"]...now after that Mammon Parable, the Pharisees, being lovers of Money, broke into the series of Parables and derided Jesus in Luke 16:14

    And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. Luke 16:14

    ...but Jesus immediately counters their derision with what the Law says on the matter about Money and Divorce in Luke 16:15-18 and then drives home the point of their hypocrisy and double standard as well as their neglect of duty to being the Light to the Gentiles with the Parable of Luke 16:19-31 in the Parable of the "Rich Man And Lazarus"...

    And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15

    Now that it is established that the "Rich Man and Lazarus" is indeed a Parable, in a series of parables, let us look a little further at some scriptures to be even more and absolutely sure:

    When Jesus spoke of these things to the Pharisees He said that He would speak to them in parable, even in fulfillment of prophecy:

    I will open my mouth in a parable: I will utter dark sayings of old: Psalm 78:2​

    And he said unto them, Unto you it is given to know the mystery of the kingdom of God: but unto them that are without, all [these] things are done in parables: Mark 4:11

    And he said, Unto you it is given to know the mysteries of the kingdom of God: but to others in parables; that seeing they might not see, and hearing they might not understand. Luke 8:10

    And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him. Luke 16:14

    And he said unto them, Ye are they which justify yourselves before men; but God knoweth your hearts: for that which is highly esteemed among men is abomination in the sight of God. Luke 16:15

    ...This Parable does not start with the words “the Kingdom of Heaven is like...” as it is about the failure of the Nation of Israel, especially the leaders in particular, to be the Light of the world.

    The parable is not giving us a specific picture of an aethereal place a person goes immediately after death [for first of all the Judgment must come first, God said that the Wheat and Tares grow together unto the end, then is the Harvest, and then are the Wheat gathered into the Barn and then only are the Tares thrown into the fire, which consumes them into smoke and ashes to be no more, which fire burns upon the whole surface of the earth, their body [made of dust] and whole being [breath plus dust] being cast into the fire all together, at the same time, to be destroyed, perished, not be any more] ...
     
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  9. ReChoired

    ReChoired Active Member

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    To those who teach that Luke 16 cannot be a parable because it uses a proper name, do not know their Bible [KJB], and moreso they make up their own rules for that which may be utilized in a parable, which are not found in scripture [KJB]:

    And he took up his parable, and said, Balak the king of Moab hath brought me from Aram, out of the mountains of the east, saying, Come, curse me Jacob, and come, defy Israel. Numbers 23:7

    Additionally:

    Mark 4:15 - gives "Satan"

    Matthew 13:37 - gives "The Son of man"

    Matthew 13:39 - gives "The devil" and "angels"

    Matthew 15:13 - gives "heavenly Father"

    2 Samuel 12:7 - gives "[King] David, thou art the man"

    Ezekiel 23:1-4 - gives "Aholah and Aholibah"

    Luke 4:23 - gives as a "proverb" "Physician" to Jesus Himself​

    Besides all this, the NT name of "Lazarus" is simply the Koine Greek form of the Hebrew Eliezer - Abraham's servant in the OT.

    Also, names in the scripture [KJB] have meaning, for the names symbolized the very character:

    Let not my lord, I pray thee, regard this man of Belial, even Nabal: for as his name is, so is he; Nabal is his name, and folly is with him: but I thine handmaid saw not the young men of my lord, whom thou didst send. 1 Samuel 25:25

    A good name is rather to be chosen than great riches, and loving favour rather than silver and gold. Proverbs 22:1

    A good name is better than precious ointment; and the day of death than the day of one's birth. Ecclesiastes 7:1

    There are only two ways in which our names may be seen, [1] in glorification of self and thus satan or [2] in glorification of God, do we make our name great, or will God make our name great unto His glory?

    [1] self and thus satan: And they said, Go to, let us build us a city and a tower, whose top may reach unto heaven; and let us make us a name, lest we be scattered abroad upon the face of the whole earth. Genesis 11:4

    [2] God: And I will make of thee a great nation, and I will bless thee, and make thy name great; and thou shalt be a blessing: Genesis 12:2

    Names throughout the Scripture have meaning, and speak of the essence of the person, being or place or thing, several examples include:

    And Adam called his wife's name Eve; because she was the mother of all living. Genesis 3:20

    And he called his name Noah, saying, This same shall comfort us concerning our work and toil of our hands, because of the ground which the LORD hath cursed. Genesis 5:29

    And unto Eber were born two sons: the name of one was Peleg; for in his days was the earth divided; and his brother's name was Joktan. Genesis 10:25

    Therefore is the name of it called Babel; because the LORD did there confound the language of all the earth: and from thence did the LORD scatter them abroad upon the face of all the earth. Genesis 11:9

    And the angel of the LORD said unto her, Behold, thou art with child, and shalt bear a son, and shalt call his name Ishmael; because the LORD hath heard thy affliction. Genesis 16:11

    Neither shall thy name any more be called Abram, but thy name shall be Abraham; for a father of many nations have I made thee. Genesis 17:5

    Thou art the LORD the God, who didst choose Abram, and broughtest him forth out of Ur of the Chaldees, and gavest him the name of Abraham; Nehemiah 9:7

    Then Abraham fell upon his face, and laughed, and said in his heart, Shall a child be born unto him that is an hundred years old? and shall Sarah, that is ninety years old, bear? Genesis 17:17

    And God said, Sarah thy wife shall bear thee a son indeed; and thou shalt call his name Isaac: and I will establish my covenant with him for an everlasting covenant, and with his seed after him. Genesis 17:19

    And the LORD said unto Abraham, Wherefore did Sarah laugh, saying, Shall I of a surety bear a child, which am old? Genesis 18:13

    Then Sarah denied, saying, I laughed not; for she was afraid. And he said, Nay; but thou didst laugh. Genesis 18:15

    And Sarah said, God hath made me to laugh, so that all that hear will laugh with me. Genesis 21:6

    And he said, Is not he rightly named Jacob? for he hath supplanted me these two times: he took away my birthright; and, behold, now he hath taken away my blessing. And he said, Hast thou not reserved a blessing for me? Genesis 27:36

    And God said unto him, Thy name is Jacob: thy name shall not be called any more Jacob, but Israel shall be thy name: and he called his name Israel. Genesis 35:10

    etc.

    More on the names if necessary, later, I can also show the names in Genesis [Genealogy], Daniel, & Revelation and what they mean in regards the everlasting Gospel itself. Their names reveal the plan of redemption.
     
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  10. ReChoired

    ReChoired Active Member

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    Now that it is firmly established by the entire surrounding context and by prophecy and action of Jesus, that Luke 16 is indeed parable, do you want to study Luke 16's Rich man and Lazarus in detail by scripture and identify the symbolism that Jesus used and what it means? For instance, the 5 brothers (Luke 16:28; of Judah (Rich man), by the same mother (Leah), representing Israel). I have a lengthy detail study on Luke 16's Rich man and Lazarus' parable, and what each symbol therein means, like "water", etc.
     
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  11. ReChoired

    ReChoired Active Member

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    Already addressed.

    The koine Greek of the text actually reads thus in the GNT TR:

    Revelation 20:10 GNT TR - "... εις τους αιωνας των αιωνων ..."

    Transliterated into English letters: "... [h]eis touS aiwnaS twn aiwnwn ..." [whereas "w" is transliterated Greek "o-mega", and "S" being a final ending 's'], reading a very harsh literal, 'into the [or that] aeon [of] the aeon', which carries the meaning of the English word - "throughout" [being continuous, without reprieve], or 'period to period', 'age to age', 'moment to moment', 'epoch to epoch', 'era to era', etc. When connected with the words "ημερας και νυκτος" [day and night], it means that the devil/satan will suffer in his torments/punishment [as his works, according to his deeds, etc, shall he be punished] continuously throughout day and night, on this earth, without relief, until he is smoke and ashes, as per texts already cited. He is not an eternal being, and never will be, and God will never sustain such a being through all eternity, especially in endless suffering, it is against His very character of Justice, Mercy and Love. The text deals with torment, not the ending, death. It reveals that Satan shall not escape the torment of the fire, and shall burn continuously until he is ashes, and not be "any more".

    Eze_27:36 The merchants among the people shall hiss at thee; thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt be any more.

    Eze_28:19 All they that know thee among the people shall be astonished at thee: thou shalt be a terror, and never shalt thou be any more.​

    For satan desired to be "I AM", and through this, "never shalt ... be any more".

    Again, it is not the words or the translation of "for ever and ever" [they're perfect] [in any such translation, you could list 100 such same translations, it doesn't matter, that is not the issue, the words are perfectly fine, and I agree with them, and the argument is not about the 'beast' or the 'false prophet', I already agree about their position and where they were during the 1,000 years [a limited time, for this world and all wickedness and sinners will pass away], etc], but [the issue is] what the words mean scripturally [KJB]. God gave the words, and thus gets to define the words, for God knows what they mean and what is intended to convey by giving them, and even ties the word "devoured" in the previous verse [9]. The very next verse after 20:15 KJB is:

    Revelation 21:1 KJB - And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.​

    My question remains. Where is the devil, and all of the finally impenitent when they receive their fiery punishment? Where? Will there be any "place" found for the wicked in the New Heavens and New Earth?

    Are you saying that the words, "forever and ever" in scripture [KJB], always means unending, having no time limit whatsoever? What if I show you other meanings, and other times [than eternal] from the same book?
     
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  12. mjrhealth

    mjrhealth Well-Known Member

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    Yep because they where never asked to do the work they did. Or what is it you do not undertand??

    Remember this Parable

    Mat 20:1 For the kingdom of heaven is like unto a man that is an householder, which went out early in the morning to hire labourers into his vineyard.
    Mat 20:2 And when he had agreed with the labourers for a penny a day, he sent them into his vineyard.
    Mat 20:3 And he went out about the third hour, and saw others standing idle in the marketplace,
    Mat 20:4 And said unto them; Go ye also into the vineyard, and whatsoever is right I will give you. And they went their way.
    Mat 20:5 Again he went out about the sixth and ninth hour, and did likewise.
    Mat 20:6 And about the eleventh hour he went out, and found others standing idle, and saith unto them, Why stand ye here all the day idle?
    Mat 20:7 They say unto him, Because no man hath hired us. He saith unto them, Go ye also into the vineyard; and whatsoever is right, that shall ye receive.
    Mat 20:8 So when even was come, the lord of the vineyard saith unto his steward, Call the labourers, and give them their hire, beginning from the last unto the first.
    Mat 20:9 And when they came that were hired about the eleventh hour, they received every man a penny.
    Mat 20:10 But when the first came, they supposed that they should have received more; and they likewise received every man a penny.
    Mat 20:11 And when they had received it, they murmured against the goodman of the house,
    Mat 20:12 Saying, These last have wrought but one hour, and thou hast made them equal unto us, which have borne the burden and heat of the day.
    Mat 20:13 But he answered one of them, and said, Friend, I do thee no wrong: didst not thou agree with me for a penny?
    Mat 20:14 Take that thine is, and go thy way: I will give unto this last, even as unto thee.
    Mat 20:15 Is it not lawful for me to do what I will with mine own? Is thine eye evil, because I am good?
    Mat 20:16 So the last shall be first, and the first last: for many be called, but few chosen.

    now, if some of those workers ,had seeing the other workers and just joined in, than at the end of the day demanded payment for work they did that was never asked for, do you not think the goodman of the house would be fully justified in saying, I never had an agreement with you, for to do any work, go you shall not receive no payment.

    Grace or works which is it, is your works greater than grace, are your works greater than His ,what have you done that you may boast before God.
    As jesus put it

    Joh 10:8 All that ever came before me are thieves and robbers: but the sheep did not hear them.

    And seems many that came after Him too. Nothing new under the sun.
     
  13. justbyfaith

    justbyfaith Well-Known Member

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    @Enoch111 is basically sound in his doctrine; and therefore he has authority with me.

    This has not been established.

    Which carries the same connotation as the English "for ever and ever". It does not refer to a mere two epochs or eras but of a transition from era to era...and from that era to the next...to the next era...and so on and so forth.

    I do believe also that the rendering in English is sufficient...that there is no need to go back to the original Greek and Hebrew just because we don't like what it says in the English...that, to me, is akin to heaping for yourself teachers to tell you what your itching ears want to hear...

    The Lord has given to us His unadulterated message in the English language....in His sovereignty, Omnipotence, and love. We are therefore not missing out on the true meaning of scripture if we are not as the educated scribes and Pharisees and experts in the Greek and Hebrew languages.
     
  14. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    So you completely ignore that they are called workers of iniquity?

    This describes one aspect of salvation I would say. We agree to work -- got that, work? -- for Jesus in exchange for what he offers. We couldn't buy it since we're broke. It's like finding a homeless jobless person, giving a place to live and a job. That's grace. So we enter an agreement to labor (work) for him. Some work longer, but they all receive salvation. They get what they bargained for for their "work" in the vineyard. This is not describing their judgment by their works. That is described elsewhere:

    Matthew 25:14 For the kingdom of heaven is as a man travelling into a far country, who called his own servants, and delivered unto them his goods.
    15 And unto one he gave five talents, to another two, and to another one; to every man according to his several ability; and straightway took his journey.
    16 Then he that had received the five talents went and traded with the same, and made them other five talents.
    17 And likewise he that had received two, he also gained other two.
    18 But he that had received one went and digged in the earth, and hid his lord's money.


    They did not earn those talents. They were given to them. Call that "grace" if you will.

    19 After a long time the lord of those servants cometh, and reckoneth with them.
    20 And so he that had received five talents came and brought other five talents, saying, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me five talents: behold, I have gained beside them five talents more.
    21 His lord said unto him, Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.
    22 He also that had received two talents came and said, Lord, thou deliveredst unto me two talents: behold, I have gained two other talents beside them.
    23 His lord said unto him, Well done, good and faithful servant; thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord.


    They got rewarded for using wisely what God trusted them with.

    24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.


    Isn't that interesting? The master didn't want the talents back since we see the servant that had the ten talents still had them. The servant who buried his in the earth was punished. His talent was taken from him and given to the one with ten.

    Note that both the first two servants get to keep what they had originally been given (for free, by grace) as well as the profits they made and got rewarded even more.

    I doubt that without the grace of God, I could do anything of any worth. How could I boast then of myself?

    There will be some who find themselves "saved" but who also find their "work" destroyed, consumed by fire. Jesus provided the foundation, what will be build on it?

    1 Corinthians 3:11 For other foundation can no man lay than that is laid, which is Jesus Christ.
    12 Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
    13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
    14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.
    15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

    They are "saved" -- they got what they bargained for just as the laborers in the vineyard did. But they suffer loss in other ways.
     
    Last edited: Jan 2, 2020
  15. ReChoired

    ReChoired Active Member

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    I now understand your authority, and how you arrive at the "true meaning of scripture". It's man, either "you" or another who agrees with "you".
     
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  16. brakelite

    brakelite Guest

    Called doctrine by consensus. Because it's popular, must be true. By that token we all should be Catholic. Or maybe Muslim. Now what was that Jesus was talking about when He discussed transportation infrastructure and ease of travel?
     
  17. ReChoired

    ReChoired Active Member

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    Got the reference:

    Mat_7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:​

    But they simply redefine the word "destruction" to mean, "lives eternally with conscious torment".

    I have never heard of a 'demolition crew' that worked in destruction of high rises, to eternally torment a building, by never bringing it down to dust and ashes, but simply continually tickling the building by puffs of air and light flashes, eternally sustaining it in its agonies of 'falling'.
     
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  18. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    I believe the scriptures tell us that death is the punishment for sin. I think that means when you die you pay the price for every sin you've committed, so if God judges you worthy of a resurrection especially if you're considered unrighteous you're not judged for the sins you committed before you died but judged on whether or not you will live by the truth when taught the truth after their resurrection. Why would God judge a person twice for the same sins. Most people today believe that when you die some part of you goes either to heaven or he'll. Most people I've spoken to say hell is a place of fiery torment for the unrighteous that go there. However why would God resurrect such persons if he has judged them worthy of being in such a place. God doesn't punish until he has judged them worthy of such punishment. The scriptures however say there is going to be a resurrection of righteous and unrighteous. Why would God resurrect the unrighteous if as people say these unrighteous have been judged worthy of such a punishment as fiery torment. The scriptures do say regarding the unrighteous when resurrected that they are judged. So what are they judged for?
     
  19. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    Yes I understand you were talking about those who were resurrected in the thousand year Reign of Jesus Christ and that at the end of that thousand years Satan and his demons are set free from the abyss for a short period of time and influences some to follow him and those who follow him along with Satan and his demons are destroyed by fire from God and thrown into the lake of fire. What I was saying is that those thrown into the lake of fire have no consciousness either but instead are destroyed out of existence just as death and the grave which are thrown into the lake of fire are destroyed out of existence.
     
  20. BARNEY BRIGHT

    BARNEY BRIGHT Well-Known Member

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    I know you were speaking about those who are thrown into the lake of fire. I'm saying that not even those who are thrown into the lake of fire have consciousness, they instead are destroyed out of existence just as Hades and death are destroyed out of existence when thrown into the lake of fire.
     
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