Is the "eternal fire" of Sodom still burning? - Nope

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St. SteVen

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- How is it that Sodom was punished with eternal fire?
- What does this tell us about the use of the term "eternal" elsewhere in scripture?

Jude 1:7 NIV
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.
They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

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Jack

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- How is it that Sodom was punished with eternal fire?
- What does this tell us about the use of the term "eternal" elsewhere in scripture?

Jude 1:7 NIV
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.
They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

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It refers to the Sodomites. BILLIONS of humans will suffer the exact same fate as the Devil.

Matthew 25:41-46
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:

46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into everlasting life."

Everlasting, the exact same Greek word, NEVER ending.
 

amadeus

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- How is it that Sodom was punished with eternal fire?
- What does this tell us about the use of the term "eternal" elsewhere in scripture?

Jude 1:7 NIV
In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion.
They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

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Heb 12:29For our God is a consuming fire.
But who is it that He consumes and who is it of whom He simply burns away the wood, hay and stubble?

Da 3:22Therefore because the king's commandment was urgent, and the furnace exceeding hot, the flame of the fire slew those men that took up Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego.

That fire did no hurt to the men thrown into the furnace...
Da 3:25He answered and said, Lo, I see four men loose, walking in the midst of the fire, and they have no hurt; and the form of the fourth is like the Son of God.

Rather they walked in the with one like the Son of God. The ropes binding them were like the wood, hay and stubble unable to endure the heat...
1co 3:12Now if any man build upon this foundation gold, silver, precious stones, wood, hay, stubble;
1co 3:13Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is.
1co 3:14If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward.

Our God, the consuming fire... is He not also eternal?
Deut. 33:27The eternal God is thy refuge...
 
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JohnD

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To what end?

Did Jesus (Yeshua) die to save us from God?

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Yeshua Jesus gave his life to pay for human sin.
God did everything to prevent human sin (except take away choice).
And even though man chose poorly, he paid the highest price to
save man and again gave man choice to believe or not.
 

St. SteVen

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God did everything to prevent human sin
Right.
- Like putting the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the CENTER of the garden. (orchard)
- Like framing the consequences for eating thereof in incomprehensible terms.
- Like telling the man before the woman was created. Yup. Everything. - LOL

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JohnD

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Right.
- Like putting the Tree of the Knowledge of Good and Evil in the CENTER of the garden. (orchard)
- Like framing the consequences for eating thereof in incomprehensible terms.
- Like telling the man before the woman was created. Yup. Everything. - LOL

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If you are only going to partially quote me I'd prefer you do not quote me at all.
I said God did everything but gave man choice.
Without options there is no choice.
 

St. SteVen

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If you are only going to partially quote me I'd prefer you do not quote me at all.
I said God did everything but gave man choice.
Without options there is no choice.
Why the emphasis on choice?
Do you believe that man's will supersedes God's will?

What is God's plan for humankind?

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Aunty Jane

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Why the emphasis on choice?
If I may respond to this....?

Because God created us as free willed beings. He would have taken no pleasure in those who had no choice....would you want your mate to love you because she chose you of her own free will, or to feel stuck with a marriage mate that was “arranged” for you....for all the wrong reasons?...and whom you did not find the least bit attractive? Even if she performed all the duties of a wife....but because she had no choice, you had no affection for one another....it would be an empty relationship. God does not want empty relationships with his human children.

Free will is the reason why we are enduring this life....to prove that it was a gift from God, and not a mistake because, when it was abused, it turned into a curse.
Every heinous act perpetrated by the sinful human race is a result of the abuse of free will. We were never designed to have power over each other....power corrupts, as we all know....and “absolute power corrupts absolutely”....

When free will was abused and the will of one was enforced on others, nothing but trouble resulted in the human race. In one generation a murderer was produced.....such is the power of sin when free will is misused. We had to learn first hand, the consequences of forcing our will on others, even in an underhanded way, by deception or threat.
Do you believe that man's will supersedes God's will?
Man’s will could never superseded God’s will....but unless we choose to do God’s will out of our own willing heart, (and put our own will last) we will become like the devil, and the two perfect humans he managed to manipulate into doing his bidding instead of their Creator’s......they all wanted things done to benefit themselves at the expense of the will of God and others who would become ‘collateral damage’ along the way. The repercussions were serious.
What is God's plan for humankind?
We are told exactly what God’s plan was for humankind at the beginning....they were to act as caretakers of all creation, endowed with the moral qualities of God and with his primary attributes, of “love, justice, wisdom and power”, to oversee creation and to care for it as God himself would if he were present.

Spaceship Earth was a self-sustaining orb placed in just the right position in our solar system to be conducive to the comfort and well being of all the lifeforms God created to live here. It would be populated with more and more willing helpers, who would keep expanding the boundaries of paradise so it would would grow and spread till the whole world resembled the garden of Eden. They were told to “fill the earth and subdue it”....imagine the life we would have had if they had just obeyed that one simple command....?

If they had stayed within the boundaries set for them by God, we would never have ended up here....enduring the evil that our first parents unleashed by their disobedience.
Once that ‘genie was out of the bottle’, there was no way to put it back......natural consequences ensued and an object lesson of mammoth proportions was allowed to overtake the human race to show the folly of disobeying their Creator who knew the value of placing limits on the freedom he gifted to his children. He would allow them to experience first hand what self governance results in.....and the ruler they chose to obey was given authority over “all the kingdoms of the world” in order to prove that he was a god worthy of human worship. He even tempted Jesus by offering him all those Kingdoms in exchange for one act of worship....unlike Adam, Jesus put his Father’s will first, and remained steadfast in his obedience....to the death, offering the human race a chance to be redeemed.

The redeemer did his job well and we can thank him for offering himself up for us.....a bright future awaits all who see through the current evil despot who rules this world through his human agencies....who has the power to blind people’s minds to the truth, but only if they reject God and his word. (2 Cor 4:3-4)
 
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St. SteVen

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Because God created us as free willed beings. He would have taken no pleasure in those who had no choice....
I get that. But the post I was responding to tied it to salvation. That's where things get messy.
Did everyone have the opportunity? Did God draw everyone? (no salvation without it) Etc.

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St. SteVen

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Man’s will could never superseded God’s will....but unless we choose to do God’s will out of our own willing heart
I agree with the first bit.
There is a day coming when everyone will choose. Every knee bill bow and every tongue acknowledge...

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Jack

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Lots of folks have a rude awakening soon to come.

Matthew 13:41-42
41 The Son of Man will send out His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all things that offend, and those who practice lawlessness, 42 and will cast them into the furnace of fire. There will be wailing and gnashing of teeth.
 

Aunty Jane

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I get that. But the post I was responding to tied it to salvation. That's where things get messy.
Did everyone have the opportunity? Did God draw everyone? (no salvation without it) Etc.
This is where understanding how the ransom works, applies to both the living and the dead.
People who lived in the times before Christ had little opportunity to come to know the true God. In Israel’s day, some became proselytes and were accepted as Jewish converts, but they did not have the same rights as one born into the Jewish nation. Those who never got to know God will not be held accountable for their ignorance. Being born into a nation that was far removed from Israel, they would have relied on the dispersed Jews living outside of the holy land to inform them about Jehovah.
These will get their opportunity in the resurrection.

God does not “draw” everyone because by free will he allows them to either qualify or to disqualify themselves by their own attitude and conduct. Those who have ample opportunity before he acts will not be given more...those who have responded to the Christian message proclaimed in all the world for a witness to all the nations, will be “drawn” by God into his family of dedicated worshippers. Those who have little to no opportunity will be judged by their heart condition....as Paul said...

Romans 2:13-16...
“For the hearers of law are not the ones righteous before God, but the doers of law will be declared righteous. 14 For when people of the nations, who do not have law, do by nature the things of the law, these people, although not having law, are a law to themselves. 15 They are the very ones who demonstrate the matter of the law to be written in their hearts, while their conscience is bearing witness with them, and by their own thoughts they are being accused or even excused. 16 This will take place in the day when God through Christ Jesus judges the secret things of mankind, according to the good news I declare.”

This is how God judges people who might not ever have heard of God’s word.....who may have lived before the law was written. There is no salvation without God seeing a humble and teachable heart.

I agree with the first bit.
There is a day coming when everyone will choose. Every knee bill bow and every tongue acknowledge...
Because Jesus will soon “separate the sheep from the goats”, it is not good news for the goats, who are dispatched into eternal death because they disqualified themselves for life. They go to the place reserved for the devil and his hordes....the lake of fire....the symbol of eternal death, (not hell.)
(Read Matt 25:31-33, 41, 46) Unfortunately, the majority will be found “goat” like in their attitude and conduct...stubbornly refusing to hear and respond to the truth, just as it was in Jesus’ day. (Matt 7:13-14)

Every knee who acknowledges Jesus as Lord and savior will be saved, but not last minute, when they have no choice....the people of Noah’s day are used as an example. (Matt 24:37-39) How many people were accepted onto the ark once the door was closed....not by Noah, but by God. The people had been given ample opportunity to listen to the preaching of Noah as he was building the means of his own salvation by following God’s instructions faithfully.....there was room for many more humans, but not a soul responded to Noah’s warning. There was no opportunity for a last minute change of mind because, what God requires is a change of heart.

Every living thing that breathed, perished because the world of that time had descended into a level of wickedness that God could no longer tolerate, created by demonic influence......that level of depravity was to be see only in “the time of the end”.....and here we are witnessing exactly what the Bible foretold, again because of demonic activity. I cannot watch the news anymore because it’s too depressing to see humanity lose its love and compassion altogether. Violence and immorality are rife.....and no one has any acceptable solutions.....but their last ditch attempt to gain control is coming......it will require “the mark of the beast” and no genuine Christian will be able to accept it....yet a great many of life’s necessities will depend on it.
A “great tribulation”, is coming, ready or not. (Matt 24:21-22; Matt 24:13)
 

St. SteVen

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Every knee who acknowledges Jesus as Lord and savior will be saved, but not last minute, when they have no choice....
Look at where they are when this happens though.
It says: "in heaven and on earth and under the earth..." (in the realm of the dead)

Philippians 2:10-11 NIV
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.

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Behold

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the punishment of eternal fire.

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This is God's Holiness released as judgement.
Consider that fire is not eternal, unless the context is God's wrath.

Think of it like this..

God's Holiness would make the Sun seem like an ice cube, with regards to HEAT.

Like this.. example.

"The wrath of God remains ON THEM"..

John 3:36

See that?
That means "now and forever" = Eternal.
This is speaking of Damnation, or 2nd Death, or Outer Darkness... the Lake of FIRE.

And the Fire is related to judgment in this case, vs refinement.

The born again are refined...
The unbelievers, never born again, are DAMNED already... already Judged.
The only thing that is keeping them from this 2nd Death eternity is a heart beat and God's Grace.
 

Aunty Jane

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Look at where they are when this happens though.
It says: "in heaven and on earth and under the earth..." (in the realm of the dead)

Philippians 2:10-11 NIV
that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow,
in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
11 and every tongue acknowledge that Jesus Christ is Lord,
to the glory of God the Father.
Yes….those in heaven will bow to their victorious Commander in Chief….and those on earth who survive the coming “tribulation” will do so, to God’s appointed King….and all those in the grave will be resurrected by Jesus who said….
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.” (John 5:28-29)

Since the hour was “coming” in Jesus’ day, no resurrections had yet taken place. Those in Sheol are “sleeping”…they are unconscious, inactive (Eccl 9:5, 10) and awaiting the time when the resurrection was to begin.….unaware of the passage of time.

Not even the elect were to awaken before Christ’s return….
”For this is what we tell you by Jehovah’s word, that we the living who survive to the presence of the Lord will in no way precede those who have fallen asleep in death; 16 because the Lord himself will descend from heaven with a commanding call, with an archangel’s voice and with God’s trumpet, and those who are dead in union with Christ will rise first. 17 Afterward we the living who are surviving will, together with them, be caught away in clouds to meet the Lord in the air; and thus we will always be with the Lord.” (1 Thess 4:15-17)

There are two resurrection…those “dead in Christ“ (his bride, the chosen ones) are those who will rule with him in heaven…these will rise “first”. (Rev 20:6) Those still living when he returns were to be instantly transformed….”caught away to the clouds” so as to join their Lord “in the air”.

When Christ has established his kingdom rulership over the earth, then the general resurrection of the dead takes place. All the dead “sleep” in the same place because there is no immortal soul, and no hell to torture anyone. Both the righteous and the unrighteous are called from their graves to resume life on earth, where God put us in the first place.

Christendom has put a lot of unnecessary doctrines in place to confuse the issues surrounding death, but the Bible itself is clear that there is no ‘heaven or hell’ scenario as opposite desrinations for all mankind…..it’s simply life or death. Those obedient to God from a willing heart will live….those who want to do things their own way will be missing…..permanently. Why does it need to be more complicated than that?

A man once inquired of Jesus: “Lord, are those who are being saved few?” Jesus’ answer embraced not only the questioner but also all others interested in salvation, including us. He replied: “Exert yourselves vigorously to get in through the narrow door, because many, I tell you, will seek to get in but will not be able.” (Luke 13:23-24)
Those being saved were always going to be “few” (Matt 7:13-14) so the question is, “why”? What is it that the ones who will seek in vain to “get in through the narrow door” are failing to do?
 

St. SteVen

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Those being saved were always going to be “few” (Matt 7:13-14) so the question is, “why”? What is it that the ones who will seek in vain to “get in through the narrow door” are failing to do?
I think that is a terrible interpretation of that passage. Or with the original writing.

Few there be that find it? Meaning a sincere search is met with zero results?
As if God is making sport with our souls?
"Oh... you were SO close. Too bad. Maybe next time.
Oh wait, there won't be a next time. Ha, ha ha..."

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