I don't think the chaff represents any of humankind. God doesn't make chaff.
Just as the wood, hay, and stubble doesn't.
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Is the "eternal fire" of Sodom still burning? - Nope
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Just as the wood, hay, and stubble doesn't.
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3 Resurrections
Active Member
Well, I am referring to Psalms 1:4, which contrasts the righteous and the ungodly. "The ungodly are not so: but are like the chaff which the wind driveth away."
You are right that God does not make chaff. Things like "chaff" and "tares" are the result of Satan's original temptation of mankind in the Garden. Just as in the parable when the servants asked where the "tares" came from that were found among the wheat. The answer was "an enemy hath done this". Even here, the vast majority percentage of the harvest is the "wheat" - not the "tares".
You are also right that the "wood, hay, and stubble" reference is not humankind. These materials represent the vain works of man - specifically those of the righteous. If any believer builds upon the foundation of Christ works that have no substance of value, those works will be burned up in the day of judgment when rewards are given out according to what a person has done in their life. Wise or foolish choices in life for the believer will result in loss or reward in the judgment day. The individual will not lose their status as a child of God, but their rewards will be less if they haven't chosen wisely (1 Cor. 3:11-15).
That's a good point about the wheat and tares being separated. Like the sheep and goats.
But from my perspective, the fire is curative, not punitive, I love this description in Malachi.
Refinement and cleansing. (impurities removed) Like chaff burning. (not the wheat)
Malachi 3:2 NIV
But who can endure the day of his coming? Who can stand when he appears?
For he will be like a refiner’s fire or a launderer’s soap.
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3 Resurrections
Active Member
God's fire during our life on earth can be either refining or annihilating, depending on the nature of what is being exposed to that fire.
Just like your Malachi 3:2 example above, in the Zechariah 13:8-9 passage that describes the effect of God's siege against both Judah and Jerusalem in the AD 66-70 period, He says, "And I will bring the third part through the fire, and will refine them as silver is refined, and will try them as gold is tried: they shall call on my name, and I will hear them: I will say, It is my people: and they shall say, The Lord is my God." This was a prophecy specifically for Israel in one particular set time period of their history. Two thirds of the inhabitants of Israel were cut off and died in that period, but one third survived the fire of God's refining process. This shows God's mercy extended, even to those of Christ's generation who were accused of being His "betrayers and murderers".
But Malachi 4 also mentioned the wicked in this same "great and dreadful day of the Lord". God predicted that Elijah (John the Baptist) would first come, and then the day of the Lord would burn like an oven, in which all the proud and the wicked would be burned up like chaff, which would leave them neither root nor branch. They would be ashes under the feet of the righteous who feared the name of the Lord. In this text, the wicked are clearly being annihilated by this fire sent from God.
This same period of the "days of vengeance" in the AD 66-70 period was what Paul predicted in 2 Thessalonians 1:7-10. "In flaming fire" God would take vengeance on those who had been persecuting His saints. Those persecutors would be punished with "everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord, and from the glory of His power". As you might agree, this was not going to be an everlasting after-life existence with perpetual torment. These persecutors of the saints were going to be destroyed utterly and for all time thereafter.
We have the appearance of aionion in that verse. Mistranslated as "eternal". Should be for an age. (eon)
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Ronald Nolette
Well-Known Member
First let me correct your definition of imminence. It does not mean t happen very soon. It means it could happen at any time which still holds true.
As you are a preterist I will ask you to answer these questions:
1. Give the historic date when the world saw and heard the angel fly around the world warning people against taking th emark.
2. What was/is the mark of the beast that was commanded every one and everywhere to either receive on their right hand or on their forehead.
3. Who was the beast who was killed and rose again, whom we call the antichrist.
4. Who was the false prophet and what was the image he made to come alive and speak and command all to take the mark.
5. Give a historic cite for when the antichrist/ false prophet beheaded believers for refusing to woirshhip hima nd take the mark on their body.
6. when did Jesus return and fight the battle of Armageddon.
@3 Resurrections
Aionios mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46.
All these verses below use the same NT Greek word, "aionios", the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in Matthew 25:46. See bold below. This shows that "aionios" cannot mean eternal or everlasting.
Matthew 13:22
The seed falling among the thorns refers to someone who hears the word, but the worries of this life and the deceitfulness of wealth choke the word, making it unfruitful.
Romans 12:2
Do not conform to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind. Then you will be able to test and approve what God’s will is—his good, pleasing and perfect will.
1 Corinthians 1:20
Where is the wise person? Where is the teacher of the law? Where is the philosopher of this age? Has not God made foolish the wisdom of the world?
1 Corinthians 2:8
None of the rulers of this age understood it, for if they had, they would not have crucified the Lord of glory.
Ephesians 2:2
in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient.
Galatians 1:4-5 KJV
Who gave himself for our sins, that he might deliver us from this present evil world, according to the will of God and our Father:5 To whom be glory for ever and ever. Amen.
Luke 18:29-30
“Truly I tell you,” Jesus said to them, “no one who has left home or wife or brothers or sisters or parents or children for the sake of the kingdom of God 30 will fail to receive many times as much in this age, and in the age to come eternal life.”
Compare: Matthew 12:32; Mark 10:30; Luke 18:30; Luke 20:35; Ephesians 1:21
Aionios, the Greek word mistranslated as "eternal" and "everlasting" in the Bible (eternal hell?)
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3 Resurrections
Active Member
First of all, the sense of "imminence" is clearly defined by God's own terms of what an "at hand" prophecy is. ALL of the unsealed prophecies of future events found in Revelation John wrote were "at hand" in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10. God defines this "at hand" term as a prophecy that is first spoken and then performed "in your days" for the ones that the prophecies are spoken to. They are not "prolonged" into "times that are far off". The lengthy discussion by God concerning this kind of "at hand" prophecy is in Ezekiel 12:21-28.
John wrote in both his introduction and conclusion (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10) that his written prophecies of future events were then "at hand". This means that anything written that was related to future events was going to be fulfilled in John's days - not in our future (they were not "prolonged" into "times that are far off" to John's days). John was told to write about "things which thou hast seen" (past events) "things that are" (presently occurring back then) and "the things which are about to be hereafter" (soon to come in John's generation).
You have listed quite a few questions above, and there is a past historical fulfillment for every one of them. I can start with the first two.
To define the mark giving homage to the Sea Beast you have to first define that Revelation 13 Sea Beast. The Sea Beast had a conglomerate history of lion, bear, and leopard features (Rev. 13:2). These were Daniel's beast empires of Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Greek empires respectively. This Sea Beast represented all the pagan world empires which had held control over Israel since Daniel's deportation to Babylon in 607 BC (a 666-YEAR history as of the time John was writing Revelation).
In John's days, the next Roman phase of the Sea Beast was then in place. We know this because Satan, the Dragon's throne in Pergamos was given to that Sea Beast (Rev. 13:2 compared to Rev. 2:13). In real time, the throne in Pergamos was given to the Roman republic in 133 BC by the dying king Attallus III who had no heir but his Roman ally to whom he could pass his Pergamum kingdom. This means the Sea Beast in John's days was in its final Roman phase of existence.
The Judean Land Beast of Rev. 13 became linked with the power of that Rev. 13 Roman phase of the Sea Beast (the Roman "iron" mixed with the miry "clay" of Israel in Daniel's image of a man). Israel was given authority by Rome to operate as an approved "religio licita", as long as the priesthood made a daily offering for the empire and the emperor. "We have no king but Caesar" showed the high priesthood's willing subservience to Rome, and collaboration with them.
In 19 BC, when Herod was about to begin the costly temple renovations, the priesthood asked Rome for permission to start minting their own currency for use in the temple. The Tyrian shekel which had been circulating until then had become debased in its reduced silver content, and the priesthood wanted to have a purer coinage for temple use. Rome agreed to allow this, as long as the priesthood kept using the pagan images and inscriptions found on the original Tyrian shekel. This was a clear violation of God's laws concerning the images of other gods back in Deuteronomy 7:25-26. Yet the priesthood wanted the profits they could make from exchanging other foreign currencies for the Tyrian shekel (the profit collected by the "moneychangers").
No other currency was allowed for temple use or for paying the annual Temple tax by adult males in Israel. No sales or purchases of sacrificial items for worship could be made without this abominable coin required by the temple priesthood which gave homage to Rome, to the city of Tyre, and Rome's demi-god Herakles. Even the women wore headdresses with a set of these Tyrian shekel coins on their forehead, to denote their marital status (as in the parable of the "lost coin").
The required use of this coin which gave homage to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast was done away with in AD 66 when the Zealot rebellion cast off their Roman overlords and started minting their own temple currency with a new inscription on them, saying "For the redemption of Zion". Until that time, anyone forced to pay that onerous fee for exchanging their other coinage for the forbidden, abominable Tyrian shekel had no rest day nor night from that forced requirement given by the Judean Land Beast (the religious leadership in Israel) giving homage to the Roman Sea Beast in collaboration with it.
As for the identity of the 3rd "angel" that warned the world against worship of the Sea Beast or the use of the mark, this can be a human "messenger" and not necessarily a celestial "angel". I believe these "angel" messengers to be some of the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints who had remained on earth in those days to serve in the early church. The imagery of these "angel" messengers "flying in the midst of heaven" seems to indicate that these are neither celestial nor regular human messengers, but a human messenger in a glorified, resurrected state. The warning given was against participating in the temple worship using the Tyrian shekel, because the AD 66 Jerusalem siege was going to trap within its walls all those coming for temple worship starting in AD 66. The torment of those trapped inhabitants of Jerusalem between AD 66-70 is horrendous by any historical account.
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Johann
Well-Known Member
Yes, God is magnanimous, as opposed to tyrannical. The Reformed view of God's character emphasizes that God is magnanimous, which means being generous, courteous, and considerate
2
. The Bible presents God as a loving and merciful Father who desires the best for His creation
1
. The Reformed view of God's character is grounded in the belief that God is a perfect being who is worthy of all praise and honor. The Reformed view of God's character also emphasizes that God is not tyrannical, but rather a loving and merciful Father who desires the best for His creation.
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
The word "aionios" in Greek has been a subject of debate regarding its meaning, particularly in the context of phrases such as "eternal life" and "everlasting punishment." Some argue that "aionios" does not necessarily mean "eternal" or "everlasting," but rather refers to a specific age or period of time. They claim that the word can denote a duration of time that is not necessarily unending.
However, it's important to note that the majority of translations and lexicons understand "aionios" to mean "eternal" or "everlasting." For example, the Greek lexicon based on Thayer's and Smith's Bible Dictionary defines "aionios" as "without beginning and end, that which always has been and always will be; without beginning; without end, never to cease, everlasting"
2
. Similarly, the Concordant Version translates "aionios" as "Eonian" in the sense of pertaining to an eon
3
.
While some scholars and sources may argue for a different interpretation of "aionios," it's essential to consider the broader consensus of translations and lexicons, which generally support the understanding of "aionios" as "eternal" or "everlasting." This demonstrates that the word is widely understood to convey the idea of an unending or everlasting duration.
J.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
The same "aionion" term is found for the eternal life which Christ promised for those who believed in Him (John 5:24, 6:47). This gift of eternal "aionion" life will never be revoked, once given. Neither is the "aionion" destruction of the wicked into ashes a fate that will ever be revoked. The state of eternal life or a state of eternally remaining dead in the grave (Hell - Hades) are the only two options.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
You have mistakenly conflated some of this cast of evil characters with each other. And it wasn't the entire Rev. 13 Sea Beast that was killed. It was only one of its heads that received a deadly wound. And this Sea Beast was not the Antichrist (since the word "antichrist" doesn't appear in Revelation at all). The Rev. 13 Sea Beast was in its pagan Roman phase in John's days. But on the other hand, the Antichrist was only one of many who had already gone out from among those believers John wrote to in 1 John 2:18-19. These show two entirely different points of origin for the Sea Beast and the Antichrist.
"Heads" are signified in Revelation as being either kings of an empire or literal mountains. Rome sat on seven mountains - the seven "heads" of Rev. 13:1. One of them, the Palatine Hill where the emperor's palace was located, was burned in the deadly AD 64 fire of Rome. With Nero's expensive renovations of the palace creating his new "Golden House" and its grounds with the 100' tall bronze statue of Nero, that "deadly wound to one of its heads" (mountains) was healed.
Johann
Well-Known Member
According to the Bible, the beast who was killed and rose again, whom we call the Antichrist, is a figure who will come in the end times. The book of Revelation describes this figure as rising "out of the sea" and being given authority and power by the dragon. This first beast is initially mentioned in Revelation 11:7 as emerging from the abyss. His appearance is described in detail in Revelation 13:1–10, and some of the mystery surrounding it is revealed in Revelation 17:7–18.
The Antichrist is also referred to as the man of lawlessness, the son of perdition, and the Beast. The Antichrist will have global control and will terrify some but entice others. The whole world will follow the Antichrist, either by intimidation or bribe. The Antichrist will oppose and exalt himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God. The Antichrist will make war with the saints and overcome them.
The Antichrist will turn people away from belief in the true God and Jesus Christ. The Antichrist will be reduced to name-calling and will blaspheme God's name, His tabernacle, and those who dwell in heaven. The Antichrist will be defeated by Jesus Christ at His second coming.
J.
Johann
Well-Known Member
The term "Antichrist" does not appear in the Book of Revelation, but it is mentioned in the New Testament, specifically in the First and Second Epistles of John
. The Antichrist is described as a person who will oppose Jesus Christ and substitute himself in Christ's place. The Antichrist is often associated with the "beast from the sea" in Revelation 13:1, which is one of the figures that could be interpreted as the Antichrist
. The Antichrist is also connected to other figures mentioned in the Bible, such as the "little horn" in Daniel's final vision, the "man of sin" in Paul the Apostle's Second Epistle to the Thessalonians, and the Beast of the Sea in the Book of Revelation
. The Antichrist is expected to appear before the Second Coming of Christ and win over many of Jesus' followers
J.
Not to worry. One age is followed by another. But first, the age of restoration.
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3 Resurrections
Active Member
I'm a member on Steve Gregg's forum. He has a thorough, calmly-studied approach to the way he addresses issues which I can appreciate (even if in error on a number of things). And yes, I'm aware (and agree) that there are occasions where "aionion" is not an indication of a perpetual condition lasting for eternity. On some occasions, it means a continual condition up until the end of something. Just like the "everlasting priesthood" promised to the seed of Phinehas in Numbers 25:13. We know that Phinehas's "everlasting priesthood" was to last continually until Christ replaced it with His Great High Priesthood after the superior order of Melchizedek. So in that case, "everlasting" didn't mean in perpetuity for eternity.
However, we would certainly not apply a limited time period for "aionion" when it comes to attributes of the eternal God.
3 Resurrections
Active Member
I'm curious how you would interpret Ecclesiastes 3:14. "I know that whatsoever God doeth, it shall be for ever: nothing can be put to it, or any thing taken from it: and God doeth it that men should fear before him." To me, this is expressing perpetuity in the acts of God's GWT judgment of his creatures, for either the just or the unjust.
Christ told the disciples that they were to fear Him who has the power to destroy both soul and body in the judgment. For the wicked, this destruction results in both body and soul being destroyed for the ages of eternity - never to be restored to life again.
For the righteous who are vicariously "in Christ", in the bodily resurrection, they will be sharing body and soul throughout eternity that immortality that Christ inherently possesses. ("Who only hath immortality..." 1 Tim. 6:16).
I think it speaks to the finality of God's work.
Body and soul, but not spirit. We will all be transformed.
Mark 9:49 NIV
Everyone will be salted with fire.
Each in turn.
1 Corinthians 15:22-24 NIV
For as in Adam all die, so in Christ all will be made alive.
23 But each in turn: Christ, the firstfruits; then, when he comes, those who belong to him.
24 Then the end will come, when he hands over the kingdom to God the Father
after he has destroyed all dominion, authority and power.
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