Is the "eternal fire" of Sodom still burning? - Nope

[Ronald Nolette]

First of all, the sense of "imminence" is clearly defined by God's own terms of what an "at hand" prophecy is. ALL of the unsealed prophecies of future events found in Revelation John wrote were "at hand" in Rev. 1:3 and 22:10. God defines this "at hand" term as a prophecy that is first spoken and then performed "in your days" for the ones that the prophecies are spoken to. They are not "prolonged" into "times that are far off". The lengthy discussion by God concerning this kind of "at hand" prophecy is in Ezekiel 12:21-28.

John wrote in both his introduction and conclusion (Rev. 1:3 and 22:10) that his written prophecies of future events were then "at hand". This means that anything written that was related to future events was going to be fulfilled in John's days - not in our future (they were not "prolonged" into "times that are far off" to John's days). John was told to write about "things which thou hast seen" (past events) "things that are" (presently occurring back then) and "the things which are about to be hereafter" (soon to come in John's generation).

You have listed quite a few questions above, and there is a past historical fulfillment for every one of them. I can start with the first two.

To define the mark giving homage to the Sea Beast you have to first define that Revelation 13 Sea Beast. The Sea Beast had a conglomerate history of lion, bear, and leopard features (Rev. 13:2). These were Daniel's beast empires of Babylonian, Medo-Persian, and Greek empires respectively. This Sea Beast represented all the pagan world empires which had held control over Israel since Daniel's deportation to Babylon in 607 BC (a 666-YEAR history as of the time John was writing Revelation).

In John's days, the next Roman phase of the Sea Beast was then in place. We know this because Satan, the Dragon's throne in Pergamos was given to that Sea Beast (Rev. 13:2 compared to Rev. 2:13). In real time, the throne in Pergamos was given to the Roman republic in 133 BC by the dying king Attallus III who had no heir but his Roman ally to whom he could pass his Pergamum kingdom. This means the Sea Beast in John's days was in its final Roman phase of existence.

The Judean Land Beast of Rev. 13 became linked with the power of that Rev. 13 Roman phase of the Sea Beast (the Roman "iron" mixed with the miry "clay" of Israel in Daniel's image of a man). Israel was given authority by Rome to operate as an approved "religio licita", as long as the priesthood made a daily offering for the empire and the emperor. "We have no king but Caesar" showed the high priesthood's willing subservience to Rome, and collaboration with them.

In 19 BC, when Herod was about to begin the costly temple renovations, the priesthood asked Rome for permission to start minting their own currency for use in the temple. The Tyrian shekel which had been circulating until then had become debased in its reduced silver content, and the priesthood wanted to have a purer coinage for temple use. Rome agreed to allow this, as long as the priesthood kept using the pagan images and inscriptions found on the original Tyrian shekel. This was a clear violation of God's laws concerning the images of other gods back in Deuteronomy 7:25-26. Yet the priesthood wanted the profits they could make from exchanging other foreign currencies for the Tyrian shekel (the profit collected by the "moneychangers").

No other currency was allowed for temple use or for paying the annual Temple tax by adult males in Israel. No sales or purchases of sacrificial items for worship could be made without this abominable coin required by the temple priesthood which gave homage to Rome, to the city of Tyre, and Rome's demi-god Herakles. Even the women wore headdresses with a set of these Tyrian shekel coins on their forehead, to denote their marital status (as in the parable of the "lost coin").

The required use of this coin which gave homage to the Roman phase of the Sea Beast was done away with in AD 66 when the Zealot rebellion cast off their Roman overlords and started minting their own temple currency with a new inscription on them, saying "For the redemption of Zion". Until that time, anyone forced to pay that onerous fee for exchanging their other coinage for the forbidden, abominable Tyrian shekel had no rest day nor night from that forced requirement given by the Judean Land Beast (the religious leadership in Israel) giving homage to the Roman Sea Beast in collaboration with it.

As for the identity of the 3rd "angel" that warned the world against worship of the Sea Beast or the use of the mark, this can be a human "messenger" and not necessarily a celestial "angel". I believe these "angel" messengers to be some of the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints who had remained on earth in those days to serve in the early church. The imagery of these "angel" messengers "flying in the midst of heaven" seems to indicate that these are neither celestial nor regular human messengers, but a human messenger in a glorified, resurrected state. The warning given was against participating in the temple worship using the Tyrian shekel, because the AD 66 Jerusalem siege was going to trap within its walls all those coming for temple worship starting in AD 66. The torment of those trapped inhabitants of Jerusalem between AD 66-70 is horrendous by any historical account.

Well you rdefinition of imminence is way too limited. It means at hand- which means it could happen at any time.

Many believers thought it was in there time, but too many events still need to be fulfilled literally and not symbolically as you insist.

As for your coin argument- failed.

The bible is clear that the mark is a "charagma" which is a stamp or imprinted mark (KIND OF LIKE A TATTOO) SO YOU HAVE TO REDEFINE WHAT WAS INSPIRED TO GET TO A COIN.

While simply means messenger, your argument fails for all other angels in the book of revelation are angels and not men. God is consistent and men do not fly in those days.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

You have mistakenly conflated some of this cast of evil characters with each other. And it wasn't the entire Rev. 13 Sea Beast that was killed. It was only one of its heads that received a deadly wound. And this Sea Beast was not the Antichrist (since the word "antichrist" doesn't appear in Revelation at all). The Rev. 13 Sea Beast was in its pagan Roman phase in John's days. But on the other hand, the Antichrist was only one of many who had already gone out from among those believers John wrote to in 1 John 2:18-19. These show two entirely different points of origin for the Sea Beast and the Antichrist.

Well aautomobile doesn't appear in Revelation either but it is an apt description of a motored conveyance.

And not they don't. The sea when used symbolically means arises out of the Gentiles. Teh beast is referred to also in the third person personal pronoun. God is not sloppy and need human editors.

So when did the beast die and rise again and who is th efalse prophet ( once again singular third person oersonbal pronoun) When did he make an image that lived and spoke.

Revelation 13

King James Version

​

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nation

Verse 4 many nations thought they could make war with the beast.

NHow I know that the four beastsa in Daniel also represent kingdoms Babylon, Medeo -Persia, Greece and Imperialism with the first phase being the Roman Empire.

But then the focus is moved to the Him! not the it.

Now tell us who the false prophet is (lamb with 2 horns)

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

 

[3 Resurrections]

Well you rdefinition of imminence is way too limited. It means at hand- which means it could happen at any time.

No, that is your own invented meaning for "at hand". In God's definition found in Ezekiel 12:21-28, an "at hand" prophecy takes place "in YOUR DAYS" for those who have that prophecy spoken to them. God not only speaks the prophecy, but He also says He will perform it in the lifetime of those to whom He is speaking that "at hand" prophecy.

Many believers in the first century thought that it was in their time - and they were right. Those prophesied events took place "in their days" of that first-century generation, just as the scriptures foretold.

As for your coin argument- failed.

The bible is clear that the mark is a "charagma" which is a stamp or imprinted mark (KIND OF LIKE A TATTOO) SO YOU HAVE TO REDEFINE WHAT WAS INSPIRED TO GET TO A COIN.

What do you think happens when a coin in minted? An image and inscriptions are struck, hammered, or stamped upon a blank metal disc. This was not going to be a tattoo in the skin. It was a coin received in the hand or worn on the forehead of women's headdresses. It was the forbidden images and profane inscriptions on that Tyrian shekel copy minted in Jerusalem which were so abominable to God. The reverse side of that coin had the initials "KP" stamped on it after 19 BC, which stood for "Kratos Romaion", showing that Rome had authorized that coin by "power of the Romans".

The inscription "Tyre the holy and city of refuge" lauding that idol-worshipping, child-sacrificing city connected with Jezebel was an affront to God. Likewise the image of the demi-god Herakles - and we know that God had nothing good to say about celestial angels mixing with human women in marriage to produce hybrid offspring. This kind of offense led to the necessity of the world-wide flood. And yet the high priesthood was requiring this Tyrian shekel with that abominable image on it - and making a profit on the exchange of other coins for that one approved currency for the temple.

Every time an Israelite paid a fee to the money-changers in the temple for their coins to be exchanged for that Tyrian shekel copy handed to them, they were reminded once again that pagan Rome held the reigns of power over their own priesthood. That corrupt priesthood (the Land Beast of Rev. 13) was making enormous profits out of disobeying God's commands in Deuteronomy 7:25-26 in order to keep their position by their subservience to Rome. No wonder Christ drove the money-changers out of the temple and called it a "den of thieves".

While simply means messenger, your argument fails for all other angels in the book of revelation are angels and not men. God is consistent and men do not fly in those days.

No, there are human "angels" or "messengers" in Revelation as well. Why do you think the "angel" in Revelation 22 told John that he was only a "fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets"? That was a glorified, resurrected human individual that was speaking to John in Revelation 22:9. There were many of these on the earth in those first-century days. Many of them were some of the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints that were serving in the early church. In fact, there were 144,000 of those "First-fruits" saints raised that same day as "Christ the First-fruits".

Ordinary men do not fly, but resurrected, glorified human individuals have the same capabilities as the glorified body of the risen Christ. These can self-levitate, just as Christ did in His ascensions.

 

[BlessedPeace]

Well aautomobile doesn't appear in Revelation either but it is an apt description of a motored conveyance.

And not they don't. The sea when used symbolically means arises out of the Gentiles. Teh beast is referred to also in the third person personal pronoun. God is not sloppy and need human editors.

So when did the beast die and rise again and who is th efalse prophet ( once again singular third person oersonbal pronoun) When did he make an image that lived and spoke.

Revelation 13​

​

King James Version​

​

​

13 And I stood upon the sand of the sea, and saw a beast rise up out of the sea, having seven heads and ten horns, and upon his horns ten crowns, and upon his heads the name of blasphemy.
2 And the beast which I saw was like unto a leopard, and his feet were as the feet of a bear, and his mouth as the mouth of a lion: and the dragon gave him his power, and his seat, and great authority.
3 And I saw one of his heads as it were wounded to death; and his deadly wound was healed: and all the world wondered after the beast.
4 And they worshipped the dragon which gave power unto the beast: and they worshipped the beast, saying, Who is like unto the beast? who is able to make war with him?
5 And there was given unto him a mouth speaking great things and blasphemies; and power was given unto him to continue forty and two months.
6 And he opened his mouth in blasphemy against God, to blaspheme his name, and his tabernacle, and them that dwell in heaven.
7 And it was given unto him to make war with the saints, and to overcome them: and power was given him over all kindreds, and tongues, and nation

Verse 4 many nations thought they could make war with the beast.

NHow I know that the four beastsa in Daniel also represent kingdoms Babylon, Medeo -Persia, Greece and Imperialism with the first phase being the Roman Empire.

But then the focus is moved to the Him! not the it.

Now tell us who the false prophet is (lamb with 2 horns)

11 And I beheld another beast coming up out of the earth; and he had two horns like a lamb, and he spake as a dragon.

12 And he exerciseth all the power of the first beast before him, and causeth the earth and them which dwell therein to worship the first beast, whose deadly wound was healed.

13 And he doeth great wonders, so that he maketh fire come down from heaven on the earth in the sight of men,

14 And deceiveth them that dwell on the earth by the means of those miracles which he had power to do in the sight of the beast; saying to them that dwell on the earth, that they should make an image to the beast, which had the wound by a sword, and did live.

15 And he had power to give life unto the image of the beast, that the image of the beast should both speak, and cause that as many as would not worship the image of the beast should be killed.

16 And he causeth all, both small and great, rich and poor, free and bond, to receive a mark in their right hand, or in their foreheads:

17 And that no man might buy or sell, save he that had the mark, or the name of the beast, or the number of his name.

18 Here is wisdom. Let him that hath understanding count the number of the beast: for it is the number of a man; and his number is Six hundred threescore and six.

It reads like you are trying to say the beast is Jesus.

There is a guy on You Tube who claims this also. The two horns being the Father and the son,the Father as the son. And also the two factions of the faith. The division. The Roman Catholic and the Protestant.

 

[3 Resurrections]

The sea when used symbolically means arises out of the Gentiles.

I agree with this. That is why the Sea Beast had those "lion, bear, and leopard" features of all the pagan, Gentile empires of Babylon, Medo-Persia, and Greece. All of these in one way or another had demanded homage over the centuries. Like the golden Babylonian image of Nebuchadnezzar that the 3 Israelites refused to bow down to. Like Daniel refusing to pray to the Persian King Darius, and getting thrown into the lion's den for continuing to pray to God as usual. Like the Greek king Antiochus IV's demands for the faithful Israelites to give up their worship of God, who were martyred and listed in Hebrews' "hall of faith".

The "Land Beast" of Rev. 13 with its two horns like a lamb, that spoke deceptively like Satan the Dragon, was the religious leadership in Israel (the Pharisees and Sadducees of the Sanhedrin). Christ called them liars like their father the Devil in John 8:44 & 55. This Israelite Land Beast "exercised all the power" of the Roman Sea Beast because the Roman governor had delegated power to the high priesthood as a Roman state-approved religion. And the Land Beast was said to operate within the very eyesight of that Roman Sea Beast, because the temple and its operations were directly in line of sight from the Roman Fortress of Antonia across the way.

The "fire come down from heaven" was speaking of the priesthood presiding over the temple's altar fires originally kindled by God's fire from heaven: fires that were forbidden to go out. Those "miracles" which the Land Beast did were the exorcisms which the priests claimed to do (as Christ mentioned in Matthew 12:27, and like the seven sons of Sceva the chief priest who were trying to do exorcisms in Acts 19:13-14.)

The image that this Land Beast told the people in the land of Israel to make was that Tyrian shekel copy minted in Jerusalem, beginning in 19 BC, with its abominable images and inscriptions giving homage to Rome's demi-gods. Any Israelite who went against the commands of the priesthood in regard to the use of this image of the "mark" earned the punishment of being "cast out of the synagogue". Once this happened, no one could support that person's livelihood or offer them aid if they were cast out. This was what caused "the fear of the Jews", because this shunning could literally be a death sentence imposed by the priesthood for an Israelite and their family.

To "count the number of the Beast" (the Sea Beast) was to calculate the number of 666 years backward in time to when the Sea Beast's existence first began under Nebuchadnezzar and the first Babylonian deportation of the Jews from Jerusalem in 607 BC. This was 666 years before John was then writing Revelation (in late AD 59 to early AD 60, just before the Laodicean earthquake which destroyed that city). That number was called "the number of a man" because the lion empire of Nebuchadnezzar was "made stand upon the feet as a man, and a man's heart was given to it" (Daniel 7:4). Plus, the entire statue of pagan Gentile empires was represented by the figure of a man.

All of this language concerning the Rev. 13 Roman phase of the Sea Beast and the Israelite Land Beast is ancient history, and poses no threat to us in our future. Neither does the other Israelite Scarlet Beast found in the wilderness. Just like the Israelite Land Beast, the Israelite Scarlet Beast too was destroyed back in AD 70 - heads, horns, harlot, and all.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

It reads like you are trying to say the beast is Jesus.

There is a guy on You Tube who claims this also. The two horns being the Father and the son,the Father as the son. And also the two factions of the faith. The division. The Roman Catholic and the Protestant.

Well to you it may read that way, but no I am not in the least saying teh beast is Jesus. He is Satans physical son as per Gen. 3:15

In revelation we do see the unholy trinity that is a counterfeit of the Trinity.

Satan/Father/ Dragon
AntiChrist/son/ sea beast
False prophet/unholy spirit/ lamb with horns

Seals with false seal.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

No, that is your own invented meaning for "at hand". In God's definition found in Ezekiel 12:21-28, an "at hand" prophecy takes place "in YOUR DAYS" for those who have that prophecy spoken to them. God not only speaks the prophecy, but He also says He will perform it in the lifetime of those to whom He is speaking that "at hand" prophecy.

Many believers in the first century thought that it was in their time - and they were right. Those prophesied events took place "in their days" of that first-century generation, just as the scriptures foretold.

No that is dictionary meanings and greek scholars commenting on the fuller meaning of "at hand".

Yes many 1st century Christians thought it would happen in their time. But it didn't.

So when did the battle of Armageddon take place.

When did Jesus set up HIs kingdom on earth?

What do you think happens when a coin in minted? An image and inscriptions are struck, hammered, or stamped upon a blank metal disc. This was not going to be a tattoo in the skin. It was a coin received in the hand or worn on the forehead of women's headdresses. It was the forbidden images and profane inscriptions on that Tyrian shekel copy minted in Jerusalem which were so abominable to God. The reverse side of that coin had the initials "KP" stamped on it after 19 BC, which stood for "Kratos Romaion", showing that Rome had authorized that coin by "power of the Romans".

I think God would know the difference in inspiring an imprint on a coin versus a n imprint of the right hand or forehead. He doesn't need us at His editors.

So who was the angel who warned everyone they were damned if they took this coin or wore a headdress> And receiving a coin in your hand or wearing a headdress is not having the name of the beast or the number of His name tattooed on you!

No, there are human "angels" or "messengers" in Revelation as well. Why do you think the "angel" in Revelation 22 told John that he was only a "fellow-servant, and of thy brethren the prophets"? That was a glorified, resurrected human individual that was speaking to John in Revelation 22:9. There were many of these on the earth in those first-century days. Many of them were some of the resurrected Matthew 27:52-53 saints that were serving in the early church. In fact, there were 144,000 of those "First-fruits" saints raised that same day as "Christ the First-fruits".

Ordinary men do not fly, but resurrected, glorified human individuals have the same capabilities as the glorified body of the risen Christ. These can self-levitate, just as Christ did in His ascensions.

Well I await you to show me the scriptural proof that these were glorified saints. So I assume you believed the rapture already occurred by the time John wrote this and that John was left behind.

The angel of Rev. 22 is also the very same angel who began in Rev. 1 asnd is described as Jesus' angel. So which supposed raptured glorified body human is Jesus personal "angel"?

See we do not get reconnected with our bodies if we have died until this event happens:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17

King James Version

​

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:
17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Until then, as Paul wrote in 2 Cor. to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord.

You have to redefine and reinterpret Scripture like all the variations of preterism do to fit it into a first century fulfilment. Also the LDS and JW's and other Christian heretical cults have their own variations by reinterpreting events and making them "close" to what is written. Why should I believe your reinteprretations over all these others and over the literal/historical/grammatical method of understanding Scripture.

 

[3 Resurrections]

No that is dictionary meanings and greek scholars commenting on the fuller meaning of "at hand".

Thank you, but these are not the ones to depend on if God already chose to define His own terms concerning when an "at hand" prophecy is fulfilled in Ezekiel 12:21-28. Everyone else who differs with God's definition should not be trusted with their "fuller meaning".

Yes many 1st century Christians thought it would happen in their time. But it didn't.

Oh, but it did happen in their first-century time frame, just like God defined the "at hand" term.

So when did the battle of Armageddon take place.

The Rev. 20:8 battle occurred after the combatants were gathered together at the "Har Megiddo" location and spread out across the breadth of the land of Israel; all of them from the "four quarters" of the land of Israel eventually converging on the city of Jerusalem, which had been called the "beloved city". That battle ended in AD 70 with the conquering of the main Zealot leader Simon bar Giora's army on the mountains of Israel by the Roman army. Some of this conflict leading up to the end was a civil war, which Ezekiel 38:21 predicted for Gog, when "every man's sword shall be against his brother". Zealot factions fought each other for supremacy over Jerusalem from AD 66-70, as fiercely as they all fought the Romans when that army eventually arrived in the spring of AD 70.

When did Jesus set up HIs kingdom on earth?

The ascended Jesus, the Son of Man, was given a kingdom and dominion at His ascension on His resurrection day (Daniel 7:13-14). This was the kingdom of heaven with the enthroned Christ (as in Acts 2:29-36). Jesus was anointed by God as the Great High Priest King of kings and Lord of lords on that day of His resurrection ("All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth..." even before Christ's final ascension). He returned in AD 70 while still having that kingdom power. It's just like the parable in Luke 19:12-15. "A certain nobleman (Christ) went into a far country (heaven) to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return." Kingdom first, then a return afterward when each steward gave an account of their service.

This Kingdom with Christ as its new High Priest King was established on earth in AD 30, since Hebrews 12:28 says that the saints were then receiving that kingdom which could not be shaken.
"Who hath delivered us from the power of darkness, and hath translated us into the kingdom of his dear Son:"

So who was the angel who warned everyone they were damned if they took this coin or wore a headdress> And receiving a coin in your hand or wearing a headdress is not having the name of the beast or the number of His name tattooed on you!

Of course it's not the same thing. Revelation mentions three separate things - the mark, the number, and the name of the Sea Beast. But it says nothing about the mark, the number, or the name of the Sea Beast being a tattoo. These individuals either "HAD" the mark, or they "HAD" the name, or they "HAD" the number of his name. In other words, these individuals who had the name and number were part of the Sea Beast identity themselves at some point in the 666 years history of the Sea Beast up to that time when John was writing Revelation.

See we do not get reconnected with our bodies if we have died until this event happens:

1 Thessalonians 4:15-17​

You are forgetting that the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected and glorified saints preceded that 1 Thess. 4 text. The Matthew 27:52-53 saints were the 144,000 "First-fruits" from those listed Israelite tribes who were raised to glorified bodies on the same day that "Christ the First-fruits" arose in AD 30. These were the "alive and remaining" ones of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 who had already been made "alive" by the bodily resurrection process. They "remained" on earth until the AD 70 rapture. John who wrote Revelation joined them in that AD 70 rapture, since he was also one of those "alive and remaining" resurrected saints: a "fellow-servant" of the resurrected "angel" messenger in Rev. 22:9.

You have to redefine and reinterpret Scripture like all the variations of preterism do to fit it into a first century fulfilment.

If Christ and the scriptures declared a first-century fulfillment of all those predicted things before that first-century generation had all died and passed away - including Christ's second coming bodily return - then I am bound by the Word of God to believe it. What you do with those declarations is up to you. But the historical fulfillments are all there. The language, particularly of the original Greek, and the grammar dictates a first-century fulfillment of them.

 

[Ronald Nolette]

Thank you, but these are not the ones to depend on if God already chose to define His own terms concerning when an "at hand" prophecy is fulfilled in Ezekiel 12:21-28. Everyone else who differs with God's definition should not be trusted with their "fuller meaning".

Well I will let you argue with believing koine greek scholars. I have studied koine greek, but trust teh experts.

God defines words, but now you have to show proof why these men whom have translated the greek word are wrong.

Oh, but it did happen in their first-century time frame, just like God defined the "at hand" term.

Well I await the historic time frame of the seals bowls and trumpets occuring and when Jesus returned.

The Rev. 20:8 battle occurred after the combatants were gathered together at the "Har Megiddo" location and spread out across the breadth of the land of Israel; all of them from the "four quarters" of the land of Israel eventually converging on the city of Jerusalem, which had been called the "beloved city". That battle ended in AD 70 with the conquering of the main Zealot leader Simon bar Giora's army on the mountains of Israel by the Roman army. Some of this conflict leading up to the end was a civil war, which Ezekiel 38:21 predicted for Gog, when "every man's sword shall be against his brother". Zealot factions fought each other for supremacy over Jerusalem from AD 66-70, as fiercely as they all fought the Romans when that army eventually arrived in the spring of AD 70.

Wrong. The legions gathered at Mount Scopus not the mount of megiddo

Simon bar Giora - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

Ez. 38 does not describe a civil war amongst Jews. Read it in context. It is a Russian invasion of Israel with a specified set of allies.

The ascended Jesus, the Son of Man, was given a kingdom and dominion at His ascension on His resurrection day (Daniel 7:13-14). This was the kingdom of heaven with the enthroned Christ (as in Acts 2:29-36). Jesus was anointed by God as the Great High Priest King of kings and Lord of lords on that day of His resurrection ("All power is given unto me in heaven and in earth..." even before Christ's final ascension). He returned in AD 70 while still having that kingdom power. It's just like the parable in Luke 19:12-15. "A certain nobleman (Christ) went into a far country (heaven) to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return." Kingdom first, then a return afterward when each steward gave an account of their service.

And you rproof?

You now sound just like the Jehovahs Witnesses in Jesus returning invisibly.

Of course it's not the same thing. Revelation mentions three separate things - the mark, the number, and the name of the Sea Beast. But it says nothing about the mark, the number, or the name of the Sea Beast being a tattoo. These individuals either "HAD" the mark, or they "HAD" the name, or they "HAD" the number of his name. In other words, these individuals who had the name and number were part of the Sea Beast identity themselves at some point in the 666 years history of the Sea Beast up to that time when John was writing Revelation.

And I told you it is like a tattoo in that it is imprinted on the hand or forehead, not worn as a headdress or simply receiving a coin from someone.

The way you reinterpret and redefine scripture is just like the Jehovahs witnesses. Why are you more authoratative than them or as Scripture is written using the rules of grammar God created????????????????????????????????????????

You are forgetting that the Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected and glorified saints preceded that 1 Thess. 4 text. The Matthew 27:52-53 saints were the 144,000 "First-fruits" from those listed Israelite tribes who were raised to glorified bodies on the same day that "Christ the First-fruits" arose in AD 30. These were the "alive and remaining" ones of 1 Thessalonians 4:15-17 who had already been made "alive" by the bodily resurrection process. They "remained" on earth until the AD 70 rapture. John who wrote Revelation joined them in that AD 70 rapture, since he was also one of those "alive and remaining" resurrected saints: a "fellow-servant" of the resurrected "angel" messenger in Rev. 22:9.

Now you are making assumptions they are the first fruits instead of Jesus. Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus wass the first to die and rise glorified and immortal. Now you have those saints as teh first fruits of the resurrection.

Now you also have them as the 144,000 defying all rules of hermeneutics and exegesis. I am sorry reinterpreting scripture is not a way to go for anyone.

 

[3 Resurrections]

God defines words, but now you have to show proof why these men whom have translated the greek word are wrong.

"He is AT HAND that doth betray me", Christ said in Matthew 26:46 as Judas was then approaching His location that night in the garden, and would come on the scene, even while Jesus was still speaking (Matt. 26:47).

"Now the first day of the feast of unleavened bread" the disciples prepared the Passover feast when Christ told them, "Go into the city to such a man, and say unto him, The Master saith My time is AT HAND; I will keep the Passover at thy house with my disciples." The time for Christ to be betrayed and tried had then arrived that very night. It was not delayed to "times that are far off".

For the imprisoned Apostle Paul waiting execution, he stated in 2 Timothy 4:6, "For I am already being poured out, and the time of my release hath arrived:" (YLT). In the NKJV, as you know, it states "For I am already being poured out as a drink offering, and the time of my departure is AT HAND".

The words "AT HAND" - even for prophecies - indicate that something has presently arrived - not that it is hanging in some kind of perpetual expectant limbo, to still be anticipated thousands of years down the road.

Well I await the historic time frame of the seals bowls and trumpets occuring and when Jesus returned.

Then you will wait in vain for those 7seals, 7 trumpets and 7 vials, since these were already poured out in judgment primarily in the land of Israel in the first century times. God had promised the nation of Israel back in Leviticus 26 four times that if they refused to turn from their wickedness, he would "punish you yet seven times more for your sins" (Leviticus 26:28, 21, 24, and 28). In the worst final case, they would end by eating the flesh of their sons and daughters, and God would destroy their cities, their sanctuaries, and their high places, with their carcasses falling upon their idols and any survivors driven into exile in other nations.

This Leviticus pattern of repeated "seven times more" punishments are mirrored in the Revelation escalating judgments of repeated sevens, which fell on Israel before AD 70, when God "shattered the power of the holy people" (Daniel 12:7).

You now sound just like the Jehovahs Witnesses in Jesus returning invisibly.

I have always written that Jesus returned bodily and visibly to the Mount of Olives in AD 70, just as Zechariah predicted. "Every eye" of the tribes of Israel of that generation who had pierced Him saw that bodily return from inside Jerusalem where they were besieged in AD 70. Zechariah even names some of those families and tribes of Israel who saw this. These tribes and families of Israel who pierced Christ are not extant today, so this prediction had to take place when there were still those Israelite tribal members around to be an eyewitness of Christ's return.

The way you reinterpret and redefine scripture is just like the Jehovahs witnesses. Why are you more authoratative than them or as Scripture is written using the rules of grammar God created????????????????????????????????????????

I pay VERY close attention to remaining faithful to the language of scripture as written (especially the original languages), which I emphasize in virtually every post I make. I pay next to no attention at all to the Jehovah Witness teaching.

You are inventing a future "tattoo" for the mark of the ancient Roman phase of the Sea Beast, which was all broken to pieces by the single blow of Christ as the "stone" kingdom long ago in AD 70 (Daniel 2:35). The entire Sea Beast was turned to dust on the wind back then, with no more power to affect our world. We are fortunate to live in the ages since then, when that "stone" kingdom has been incrementally growing into a great mountain that will eventually fill the whole world.

Wrong. The legions gathered at Mount Scopus not the mount of megiddo

There is no mention in scripture of Mount Scopus in particular for the armies to gather there. Gog's army ended up falling in death after the battle on the "mountains of Israel" (Ezekiel 39:4) at Jerusalem, which included all 7 hills of the city.

The initial gathering of the combatants for the Roman-Jewish war was at the port city of Ptolemais - which you notice is near Megiddo in the plain at the foot of the hills there. Vespasian landed his troops at Ptolemais at the beginning of the war, gathering to that location other auxiliary troops under several kings and his son Titus's legion which came from Alexandria (Wars 3:4). From there at Ptolemais, the Roman armies and auxiliary forces spread out over the land of Israel, conquering cities as Vespasian traveled toward the chief target of Jerusalem - the "beloved city".

The opposing Jewish forces of the main Zealot leader Simon bar Giora also had their base of operations in Galilee at Nain where Simon stored all his supplies, which again is in the same Megiddo location. The battle was never to take place at "Armageddon" (Har Megiddo). The main battle where Gog was defeated took place at Jerusalem, as Ezekiel predicted.

Ez. 38 does not describe a civil war amongst Jews. Read it in context. It is a Russian invasion of Israel with a specified set of allies.

Russia is never mentioned at all in Ezekiel. ISRAEL is GOG, as we are told in Balaam's prophecy in Numbers 24:5-9 in the LXX. The battle against Israel, when "every man's sword shall be against his brother" (Ezekiel 38:21) was a CIVIL WAR with the competing Zealot leaders fighting against each other for the supremacy in Jerusalem. The chief Zealot leader Simon bar Giora collected an assortment of different nationalities in his conglomerate mercenary army of 40,000 - the largest of all the Zealot leaders. This battle when the chief prince of Gog (Simon bar Giora) was defeated is long over since AD 70, with no threat for us today.

Now you are making assumptions they are the first fruits instead of Jesus. Jesus is the first fruits of the resurrection. Scripture clearly teaches that Jesus wass the first to die and rise glorified and immortal. Now you have those saints as teh first fruits of the resurrection.

I'm not assuming anything. The 144,000 coming from those listed Jewish tribes are called the "First-fruits" in Revelation 14:4. These were "redeemed from the earth" by being bodily resurrected out of their broken-open graves around Jerusalem. They shared the same title of the "First-fruits" with Christ because they shared the "First resurrection" event with Him that same day in AD 33. Christ was unique in that He was the "First-born" and the "First-begotten from the dead" to ascend to heaven and stand before the Father in that resurrected, glorified state. No other bodily-resurrected individual did that before Christ did.

Jesus was not the first to resurrect to a glorified state, but He absolutely was the first to ascend to heaven in that glorified, resurrected state on His resurrection day.

The "First-fruits" is a PLURAL term, which in Leviticus 23:10-12 was representative of the sheaf handful of the first-fruits of the barley harvest offered at Passover in the temple (the Matthew 27:52-53 saints) along with a single He-Lamb without blemish (representing Christ)

The "First-born" and the "First-begotten from the dead" are unique titles belonging only to a SINGLE individual - Christ Jesus.
The "First-fruits" is a PLURAL term belonging to both the 144,000 Matthew 27:52-53 resurrected saints as well as to Christ, who were all raised to glorified bodies that same day of the "First resurrection" event in AD 33.