Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?

[O'Darby]

Happy to elaborate.

The consequence of not accepting the free gift is contingent upon a gift being offered as necessary in the first place. Because of the human sin condition.

The offering is afforded by the same entity, God, that created the condition first. Making the later gift God's prerogative.

Right - agreed. That's pretty much what I was getting at in post #338 - the focus is really on the extreme nature of the consequences rather than on whether the gift is or isn't conditional. If we completely eliminated the gift (offer of salvation) and just said that God created the reality He did, with every human suffering eternal torment because of (inevitable) sin, the extreme nature would be highlighted - enough, it seems to me, to make a reasonable human question the Perfect Holiness, Wisdom, Love and Justice behind the plan. That's not fair, of course, because in Christian theology the gift was part of the plan from before the creation - but this is how it works out for those who don't accept the gift.

If all people had a full and fair opportunity to turn to Christ, which they clearly don't, and the consequence of not doing so were simply separation from God in an otherwise tolerable existence (or even annihilation), this would strike most people as more loving, wise and just than hideous consequences that seem to most to greatly exceed the magnitude of the offense. If the most godly person I ever knew suffers eternal torment because of some minor sin and a failure to turn to Christ in whatever opportunity he had, this strikes me and most people as weirdly excessive.

 

[ScottA]

- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

That point is only true if greater value is placed on the gift than on refusing the gift by those who refuse it. Meaning rather, that refusal would not actually be extortion, but would be stupid.

 

[St. SteVen]

The consequence of not accepting the free gift is contingent upon a gift being offered as necessary in the first place. Because of the human sin condition.

Here's a question.
Why would there be a consequence if the gift is necessary? (God anticipated the need)
Shouldn't he take responsibility to fix what he broke? (or anticipated what would be broken)

/

 

[St. SteVen]

If all people had a full and fair opportunity to turn to Christ, which they clearly don't...

Thank you.
This is a key question I ask quite often.
The assumption is that everyone heard and had an opportunity to respond.
They clearly didn't!

Now what?

/

 

[St. SteVen]

St. SteVen said:
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

That point is only true if greater value is placed on the gift than on refusing the gift by those who refuse it. Meaning rather, that refusal would not actually be extortion, but would be stupid.

Say what?
The extortion is from the giver, not the receiver.
Because the giver (according to church dogma) said there would be consequences for not receiving. (extortion)

/

 

[O'Darby]

St. SteVen said:
- Consequences for refusal would make it extortion.

Say what?
The extortion is from the giver, not the receiver.
Because the giver (according to church dogma) said there would be consequences for not receiving. (extortion)

/

Technically, maybe, it's more like coercion.

 

[Behold]

If all people had a full and fair opportunity to turn to Christ, which they clearly don't,

You're Calvinism is glowing....

You should put out that light, as its a dark one.. Luke 11:35.

So, lets see what Christ says about your post..

Jesus said.. "If i be lifted up (on the Cross) I will Draw ALL people to me"..

"All" is the enemy of John Calvinism.

Now, Here is what God said about that situation..

He said in Romans 1, that human beings are without excuse, regarding everyone realizing Him

He said that He has made Himself known to everyone, by the things that are created.

Now, a lot of seriously carnal people who spend too much time trying to discredit the bible and accuse God falsely have this unfortunate lack of understanding regarding something..

And that is... GOD will find a way to reach you.

You can be living in a Tree House in a forgotten Asian Swap, and God will find a way to show you what He wants you to know, and believe.

"well, behold, what if they dont have cable or an Iphone or access to the Vatican or what if they were raised in a cave in the Arctic by Polar Bears".

"what if they are the child of Hindu parents, and they were raised to worship Cows"..

Then God will have the Cow talk to them, if need be....

So...."what if, what if, what if,""..

A.) If God has to do it, He'll find someone to put in a Whale's Mouth to reach that lonli one who is in that Treehouse, or in that Cave or in that Mexican Jail.

God will find a way to give you Jesus, no matter if you are in a Prison, or on the Planet Neptune.

Never Doubt God's ability to Offer John 3:16 to everyone.

 

[ScottA]

Right - agreed. That's pretty much what I was getting at in post #338 - the focus is really on the extreme nature of the consequences rather than on whether the gift is or isn't conditional. If we completely eliminated the gift (offer of salvation) and just said that God created the reality He did, with every human suffering eternal torment because of (inevitable) sin, the extreme nature would be highlighted - enough, it seems to me, to make a reasonable human question the Perfect Holiness, Wisdom, Love and Justice behind the plan. That's not fair, of course, because in Christian theology the gift was part of the plan from before the creation - but this is how it works out for those who don't accept the gift.

If all people had a full and fair opportunity to turn to Christ, which they clearly don't, and the consequence of not doing so were simply separation from God in an otherwise tolerable existence (or even annihilation), this would strike most people as more loving, wise and just than hideous consequences that seem to most to greatly exceed the magnitude of the offense. If the most godly person I ever knew suffers eternal torment because of some minor sin and a failure to turn to Christ in whatever opportunity he had, this strikes me and most people as weirdly excessive.

There are a few misunderstandings in that.

First, the gift of salvation is not "conditional", but is simply a choice.

Which then raises another issue, that of assuming the choice is made after experiencing life in this world. It's not. That's not what the world is. On the contrary, the world is not a "go work out your own salvation" order wherein a choice is arrived at. But--like "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world", is a real time manifestation of all that was before, "before the foundation of the world." In other words, this is not actually a walk of discovery, but a walking out of a choice previously made.

Which means our valley of decision was before, and our walking through this valley of the shadow of death, is the result...the sum total of which is the day of the Lord.

Another way to put it, is this life is not our sentence of death, as much as it is the evidence for it made manifest or presented: The charge, the evidence, judgement, and then sentencing.

 

[O'Darby]

Thank you.
This is a key question I ask quite often.
The assumption is that everyone heard and had an opportunity to respond.
They clearly didn't!

Now what?

/

As I say in one of my blog entries, consider a child born into a fourth-generation upper-class Southern Baptist family in Alabama, then contrast him with a child born into a fourth-generation poverty-stricken Hindu family in New Delhi and a child born into a primitive tribal family in a remote village in Upper Ooga Booga. If the latter two spend five minutes with a missionary peddling the Four Spiritual Laws, was that a fair opportunity?

The comical lengths to which genuinely sincere and thoughtful Christians will go to preserve this house of cards is provided by premier philosopher and apologist William Lane Craig. He suggested that God in His foreknowledge has arranged things so that those in circumstances where it is Highly Unlikely they will turn to Christ have been placed there because God foreknew they wouldn't turn to Him anyway!

 

[O'Darby]

There are a few misunderstandings in that.

First, the gift of salvation is not "conditional", but is simply a choice.

Which then raises another issue, that of assuming the choice is made after experiencing life in this world. It's not. That's not what the world is. On the contrary, the world is not a "go work out your own salvation" order wherein a choice is arrived at. But--like "the lamb slain before the foundation of the world", is a real time manifestation of all that was before, "before the foundation of the world." In other words, this is not actually a walk of discovery, but a walking out of a choice previously made.

Which means our valley of decision was before, and our walking through this valley of the shadow of death, is the result...the sum total of which is the day of the Lord.

Another way to put it, is this life is not our sentence of death, as much as it is the evidence for it made manifest or presented: The charge, the evidence, judgement, and then sentencing.

Which sounds little different from Calvinism. I have often acknowledged on these forums that Calvinism is an entirely coherent system that eliminates many of the issues that plague non-Calvinists. The downside is an exceedingly unappealing God and a human existence that is little more than a depressing cartoon.

My understanding, like yours, may be wrong - but I don't think that holding a different understanding makes mine a misunderstanding.

I happen to believe this world is precisely a "go work out your own salvation" order wherein a choice is arrived at.

 

[Behold]

As I say in one of my blog entries, consider a child born into a fourth-generation upper-class Southern Baptist family in Alabama, then contrast him with a child born into a fourth-generation poverty-stricken Hindu family in New Delhi and a child born into a primitive tribal family in a remote village in Upper Ooga Booga. If the latter two spend five minutes with a missionary peddling the Four Spiritual Laws, was that a fair opportunity?

Posting extremes to try to discredit God's ability to reach the lost is not related to Truth.

 

[O'Darby]

Posting extremes to try to discredit God's ability to reach the lost is not related to Truth.

That "extreme" is called "the world we live in," Reader.

 

[ScottA]

Which sounds little different from Calvinism. I have often acknowledged on these forums that Calvinism is an entirely coherent system that eliminates many of the issues that plague non-Calvinists. The downside is an exceedingly unappealing God and a human existence that is little more than a depressing cartoon.

My understanding, like yours, may be wrong - but I don't think that holding a different understanding makes mine a misunderstanding.

I happen to believe this world is precisely a "go work out your own salvation" order wherein a choice is arrived at.

I wouldn't know about Calvinism...but what I do know is not what I think.

Disclaimer: I don't do much opinion or mere belief here with regard to the things of God, if at all. So if I seem matter-of-fact, it's because I am. You don't have to believe it, but you might give some consideration to the reality of how God has spoken down through the ages, whether it be by donkey or king. I make no excuse for stating things accordingly.

I am not going to restate what I have already said, but as for things being "little more than a depressing cartoon"-- That is not an unwarranted response. This little book of truth coming precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, etc., although it is good news, will likely make you sick to your stomach. Revelation 10:9 To the contrary, if it doesn't--it is then that you have reason to question.

 

[Duck Muscles]

Right - agreed. That's pretty much what I was getting at in post #338 - the focus is really on the extreme nature of the consequences rather than on whether the gift is or isn't conditional. If we completely eliminated the gift (offer of salvation) and just said that God created the reality He did, with every human suffering eternal torment because of (inevitable) sin, the extreme nature would be highlighted - enough, it seems to me, to make a reasonable human question the Perfect Holiness, Wisdom, Love and Justice behind the plan. That's not fair, of course, because in Christian theology the gift was part of the plan from before the creation - but this is how it works out for those who don't accept the gift.

If all people had a full and fair opportunity to turn to Christ, which they clearly don't, and the consequence of not doing so were simply separation from God in an otherwise tolerable existence (or even annihilation), this would strike most people as more loving, wise and just than hideous consequences that seem to most to greatly exceed the magnitude of the offense. If the most godly person I ever knew suffers eternal torment because of some minor sin and a failure to turn to Christ in whatever opportunity he had, this strikes me and most people as weirdly excessive.

Yes. The entire configuration is of God.
Pre-planned before creation, the created had to fall. And then turn to the source of the fall to save them.

 

[Duck Muscles]

Here's a question.
Why would there be a consequence if the gift is necessary? (God anticipated the need)
Shouldn't he take responsibility to fix what he broke? (or anticipated what would be broken)

/

What if the need for the gift was not a break but a plan?

 

[St. SteVen]

Technically, maybe, it's more like coercion.

I think coercion becomes extortion when avoiding the consequences is more important than taking the gift.
The gift taken MOSTLY to avoid the consequence. The Get-out-of-Hell-Free card. That BECOMES the gift.

/

 

[St. SteVen]

... a primitive tribal family in a remote village in Upper Ooga Booga.

LOL - (upper Ooga Booga)
Made me laugh. Thanks.
What about LOWER Ooga Booga?
Please don't send me there!

/

 

[St. SteVen]

The comical lengths to which genuinely sincere and thoughtful Christians will go to preserve this house of cards is provided by premier philosopher and apologist William Lane Craig. He suggested that God in His foreknowledge has arranged things so that those in circumstances where it is Highly Unlikely they will turn to Christ have been placed there because God foreknew they wouldn't turn to Him anyway!

OMGoodness.
Sorry to hear him say that. He speaks for evangelicalism. (fundies)
The predestination thing is a mess. What sort of God would do that?
Born to burn?

--- PARODY ---

God: Welcome to the afterlife.
Person: Who are you?
God: I created you for my own purposes.
Person: Like what.
God: For destruction.
Person: What does that mean?
God: It means eternal conscious torment.
Person: Why?
God: It was my choice for you.
Person: What did I do to deserve this.
God: You were born a sinner.
Person: Not by my choice.
God: Right. By my choice.
Person: Was that fair?
God: It doesn't matter. You can't stop me.
Person: Who did you say you were again?
You sound more like the Devil than God.

/

 

[O'Darby]

I wouldn't know about Calvinism...but what I do know is not what I think.

Disclaimer: I do much opinion or mere belief here with regard to the things of God, if at all. So if I seem matter-of-fact, it's because I am. You don't have to believe it, but you might give some consideration to the reality of how God has spoken down through the ages, whether it be by donkey or king. I make no excuse for stating things accordingly.

I am not going to restate what I have already said, but as for things being "little more than a depressing cartoon"-- That is not an unwarranted response. This little book of truth coming precept upon precept, line upon line, here a little, etc., although it is good news, will likely make you sick to your stomach. Revelation 10:9 To the contrary, if it doesn't--it is then that you have reason to question.

OK, but I do think we all tend to fall in love with our own ideas. I try to view my own from the perspective of "This is a way of thinking about" whatever the mystery may be - a way that resonates with me, that I am capable of believing.

 

[St. SteVen]

What if the need for the gift was not a break but a plan?

BINGO!
The plan. The Logos/logic/reason/meaning/plan.


Is the Logos meaningful, or meaningless? - Depends on your view of Logos.

/