Is the Gift of Salvation nullified by the consequences of refusal?
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Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
not true.
Because your faith is not in yourself. it is in God
You are trying to make a simple subject hard.
God said here I am offering you salvation, freedom from your sin and eternal life.
All you have to do just say yes.
NO one will say yes, UNLESS they trust God..
which is where faith comes in..
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Patrick1966
Well-Known Member
I've listened to seemingly countless accounts of people who claim to have met Jesus during a near-death experience. Many of them had been angry atheists and other lost people. After meeting Jesus (purportedly) every one of them was changed. I have never heard ONE NDE account wherein a person said they met Jesus and rejected him. It doesn't happen.
When a person's eyes are fully open, they go to Jesus. It's like putting a fish into water. It's natural and it just happens.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Salvation in exchange for faith is quid-pro-quo (Latin: this for that)
Don't confuse "familiar" with simple. You were handed your theory by someone else. It was not original to you. What is "hard" is suspending your view in order to understand my view.
No one will trust in God and have faith unless and until God takes out their heart of stone and gives them a heart of flesh.
Genesis 6:5
Then the Lord saw that the wickedness of mankind was great on the earth, and that every intent of the thoughts of their hearts was only evil continually.
What has changed since then? Nothing at all. Each one of us is desperately evil continually. The world is filled with selfish people who think only of themselves.
Genesis 8:21
The Lord smelled the soothing aroma, and the Lord said to Himself, “I will never again curse the ground on account of man, for the intent of man’s heart is evil from his youth; and I will never again destroy every living thing, as I have done.
Even after the flood, nothing changed. A man's heart is evil from his youth.According to Jesus, a man can't even recognize the kingdom of God when he sees it unless he is first born again. Faith follows birth. God grants us open eyes and soft hearts because it pleases him to do that.
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CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
It's easy to ignore what I said. But sometimes the easy way isn't actually an easy way.
Christians have been handed a theory that isn't Biblical. While the exchange, according to the theory, is quid-pro-quo, those who affirm this theory have an apparent blind spot with regard to grace.
The Bible doesn't see "faith" as the response to a "free gift" offer. The Bible often speaks about the "obedience of faith." Faith is something that ought to be done and if one believes God, then one is obedient to God.
Romans 1:1-6
1 Paul, a bond-servant of Christ Jesus, called as an apostle, set apart for the gospel of God, 2 which He promised beforehand through His prophets in the holy Scriptures, 3 concerning His Son, who was born of a descendant of David according to the flesh, 4 who was declared the Son of God with power according to the Spirit of holiness by the resurrection from the dead, Jesus Christ our Lord, 5 through whom we have received grace and apostleship to bring about the obedience of faith among all the Gentiles in behalf of His name, 6 among whom you also are the called of Jesus Christ;
Even the cross of Christ was not a quid-pro-quo exchange. The Bible speaks about the cross of Christ as obedience to God.
Philippians 2:5-11
5 Have this attitude in yourselves which was also in Christ Jesus, 6 who, as He already existed in the form of God, did not consider equality with God something to be grasped, 7 but emptied Himself by taking the form of a bond-servant and being born in the likeness of men. 8 And being found in appearance as a man, He humbled Himself by becoming obedient to the point of death: death on a cross. 9 For this reason also God highly exalted Him, and bestowed on Him the name which is above every name, 10 so that at the name of Jesus every knee will bow, of those who are in heaven and on earth and under the earth, 11 and that every tongue will confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father.
Jesus Christ went to the cross out of obedience to God also. We do what ought to be done because it is the right thing to do. If God should bless us and favor us, it pleased him to do so. We obey him because it is the right thing to do. He blesses us in order to demonstrate the glory of his grace.
quid-pro-quo = what is due, not grace.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
this only works if yoru faith is in yourself
When you give your child a gift. they can say no. they do not want it. I have seen it happen all the time
its not quid pro quo if the child says yes..
fatalism is mans idea. Don;t ask me to confuse somethign that is similar to me when you are doing the same thing
God so loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER believes, will not perish BUT HAS ETERNAL LIFE
God will not force you to take his gift. He wants you to want it. he wants you to trust him.
Thats not qui pro quo.
thats a person who humbles himself ans stops trying to save himself and calls out to God for salvation.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
there you go with your straw man again.
You have been handed a theory..
I am not die anything, God died for me, But he will not force me to take his gift.
Just like adam chose to say no to God and eat of the tree. and is lost
we are forced to make a decision to say yes or no to God and recieve his gift if we are to be saved.
Thats not quid pro anything.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I agree, a gift without conditions is not quid-pro-quo. But the claim is that faith is a condition of salvation.
If the parent says I will give you dessert if you finish your peas, then the dessert is quid-pro-quo.
If someone says one must believe before God grants new birth, then the new birth is not a gift.
Okay. Non sequitur. But okay.
And whoever believes is also whoever God has first opened eyes and soften hearts.
God doesn't force. He creates.
When God recreates the will of man, then man wants it.
Either faith is a condition of salvation or it isn't. If it is, then quid-pro-quo salvation for faith. But if faith is evidence of salvation, then salvation is by Grace.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Faith is not a condition. If your drowning and you have to trust the one who came to rescue you to be saved. You do not earn your salvation. itsd not quid pro quo. Its called humility..
God is not saying he will save you if you work to earn it by trusting him
He said he loved the world he gave his only son that WHOEVER believes has eternal life
He said he who believes has life. he who does not believe does not have life. but the wrath of God abides.
then God forced them to believe, while God forced others to not believe.
Thats called double fatalism. and is not from God
God gave adam free will. In free will Adam chose to rebel.
God gives adams offspring free will. He draws, he teaches, he uses others. but he will never force you to say yes. You must chose this day who you will believe.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Again, he is God. He doesn't use force to do anything at all. (Only created beings need to apply force to do work.) Everything comes into existence according to his will as he wills it. In the beginning, he said, "Let there be light" and there was light. If God wants light, he speaks it into existence.
If God wants to save "Joe", God says "Let Joe be a saved person." Everything else follows from that. Joe suddenly has an open mind, a soft heart, and the ability to see and understand the gospel. He believes what he hears and he is gifted with the indwelling Holy Spirit. He grows in wisdom, knowledge, love, and the gifts of the Spirit. All because God said, "Let Joe be a saved person."
Many denominations believe in the doctrine of prevenient grace. Consider Romans 10, for instance. In that context, Paul asks a series of rhetorical questions.
He starts: "Everyone who calls on the name of the Lord will be saved."
But . . .
- How can they call on him in whom they have not believed?
- How are they to believe in him whom they have not heard?
- And how are they to hear without a preacher?
- How are they to preach unless someone is sent?
Jesus often says, "he who has ears to hear, let him hear" strongly implying that some don't have the ears to hear. Will God say, "I wish I could save Joe, but unfortunately he doesn't have ears to hear the truth?" I don't think so, if God wants to save Joe, God is going to open Joe's ears so that he can both hear and understand the gospel. There is no barrier to belief that God can't overcome.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Okay, but your statements can be taken more than one way, depending on whether you mean to suggest a causal relationship between belief and life or whether you mean to suggest a coincidental relationship between belief and life.
Is belief the "cause" of salvation? Does the second result from the first? Some would say, "Certainly. The Bible promises that God will save all those who believe."
Or, do belief and salvation have another connection? When it says that whoever believes has eternal life, it doesn't necessarily indicate causation. Believing and eternal life might take place at the same time according to a common cause, but the one doesn't cause the other, they are simply causes together at the same time.
Suppose Joe mows the lawn and trims the hedge every Saturday. He does both at the same time. But does mowing the lawn cause the hedge to be trimmed? No. not at all. Joe does them both at the same time but one doesn't cause the other.
If the Bible says that belief is coincident with being saved, it doesn't follow that belief is the cause of being saved.
No, it's not fatalism. Fatalism says that nothing I do matters because God has willed everything to happen beforehand. The Bible doesn't teach fatalism; the Bible teaches that everything God makes has a narrative purpose. God's will is not arbitrary. God is telling the salvation story and within that story, it matters whether someone believes or not. But God is the author of the story. Nothing happens unless he "writes" it.
Who created Adam's motives?
The author of a novel doesn't force his characters to act in certain ways. He simply writes it down on paper.
Actually, the characters in a novel of necessity act according to the author's will.
Much love!
Agreed.
So, if we tell some who is hearing a gospel presentation possibly for the first time that
salvation is a free gift, how do we suppose they will understand that message?
What does "free gift" mean to them?
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Yes. I affirm the concept of "divine determinism." Let me point you to a couple of verses. Bear in mind that these two verses don't prove anything. They only hint at Divine Determinism, but I have drawn my conclusion from my extensive study of the Bible, both Old and New Testament.
John 1:1-5
In the beginning was the Word, and the Word was with God, and the Word was God. He was in the beginning with God. 3 All things came into being through Him, and apart from Him nothing came into being that has come into being. In Him was life, and the life was the Light of men. The Light shines in the darkness, and the darkness did not comprehend it.
John opens his gospel with a statement concerning God's relationship to reality. The concept that serves as the anchor to the Good News is God's creative power. God's creative power is so extensive, he created the room where I am, the chair where I sit, the computer before me, and the keyboard under my fingertips. Everything. I am a believer, he created that. If my sons grow up to become believers he created that. and so on. This is really good news because nothing can thwart God. If he wants to save me or you, there is nothing that can stop him. Next, Paul preaches the good news of divine determinism during his concluding remarks in Romans 8
Romans 8:31-37
What then shall we say to these things? If God is for us, who is against us? He who did not spare His own Son, but delivered Him over for us all, how will He not also with Him freely give us all things? Who will bring a charge against God’s elect? God is the one who justifies; who is the one who condemns? Christ Jesus is He who died, yes, rather who was raised, who is at the right hand of God, who also intercedes for us. Who will separate us from the love of Christ? Will tribulation, or distress, or persecution, or famine, or nakedness, or peril, or sword? Just as it is written,
“For Your sake we are being put to death all day long;
We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
We were considered as sheep to be slaughtered.”
But in all these things we overwhelmingly conquer through Him who loved us. For I am convinced that neither death, nor life, nor angels, nor principalities, nor things present, nor things to come, nor powers, nor height, nor depth, nor any other created thing, will be able to separate us from the love of God, which is in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Some people find this passage to be of great comfort. God has sovereignty over all of reality, which means that if God wants to save me, nothing can stop him.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
you don't understand
If, as in your view. God makes a person alive. they WILL receive Christ in faith.
If as in your view. He did not make them alive, they will NEVER receive Christ.
in essence, he is forcing people who would never otherwise receive him, to receive him, and forcing others to never receive him.
That God can not claim he so loved the world. That he loved his creation. that he is a God of love.
we are puppets who do whatever it is he says.. which is exactly satans lie against him.
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
Correct. The author/character analogy is intended only as a way to illustrate God's transcendence over his creation. The strength of God's creative power is evident in the death, burial, resurrection, and ascension of Jesus Christ. In this way, The father proved his ability to restore life. In Christ, the concept of eternal life became a reality. And now Jesus intercedes for us and when the time comes, at his command, all of his followers will rise from the dead and join him. And what is the solid basis for this truth? God's creative power over his creation.
Eternally Grateful
Well-Known Member
Once again, you are making things difficult. and complex.
Jesus died for the world
it is his gift to mankind. And he offers that gift to everyone.
He hands the gift to you. all you have to do is take it. It actually takes more work to refuse the gift. than it does to take it. But you will NEVER take it unless you have true faith. Because as long as your faith is in something else. You will not receive it..
It is fatalism, It says Gods will happen no matter what.
Who created Adams motives?
God gave adam free will. He tested his free will. He said will you trust me, or will you trust self.
Adam chose to sin..
CadyandZoe
Well-Known Member
I don't know what people today would think, since most people today believe that authorities are nothing more than salesmen, pitching a product. The common view today, even among some Christians, is that preaching the gospel is little more than making a sales pitch. Who gives anything away for free without some kind of hidden agenda behind it?
All I can say for sure is how I personally heard it. My first encounter with the gospel was a pocket New Testament sent to me by a pastor from the Midwest. (USA) My former girlfriend moved away to the Midwest and there she became a Christian. She told her pastor about me and he sent me a pocket New Testament with various passages underlined. One of those passages was the following:
Romans 6:22-23
But now having been freed from sin and enslaved to God, you derive your benefit, resulting in sanctification, and the outcome, eternal life. For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.
Fortunately, I didn't hear this as a sales pitch. I never asked myself, "What's the catch?" * Suddenly God felt much closer, tangible, and real. And looking back, I think the Holy Spirit was at work internally, calling me to him. From my perspective as a young, ignorant teenager, the wages of sin were misery, disappointment, and heartbreak. I ached inside and had no idea where to find relief. So I perfectly understood the first part, having experienced it firsthand. But the second part was intriguing. If sin brought death, and "death" was something akin to "misery, disappointment, and heartbreak" then what would "Life" look like?
To me it meant, all I can do is approach God empty-handed. Sin is my currency, which is worthless to him. Nevertheless, for those who are "in Christ" eternal life is given freely. So I read the entire New Testament over and over again, eager and thirsty to know more about Christ Jesus.
I realize that this answer is longer than you might have expected. But this subject is bringing back memories of my conversion experience and how excited I felt about it. I love Jesus and I would like to see him to thank him personally. (After many tears of joy.)
________________________
*During that time we used to jokingly remark, "After we become Christians, we spend the rest of our lives reading the fine print." In other words, the "Romans Road" is a bit simplistic, but as we walk with Jesus we learn that the situation is much more complex and richer, and more profound than we first knew.
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