You just proved my point lets just ignore the scriptures we do not like and believe there is a contradiction that these verse saying otherwise do not count ... we will just pretend they are not there and go to something that we want to believe ... And there is a famine in the land not for bread but for hearing the true word of God so I will send a delusion on them that they believe lie because they loved not the truth
Is The Osas Doctrine Satanic?
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QUOTE (Christina @ May 9 2009, 05:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73436
Here dan p these are the believers the ministers the preachers He is speaking to here Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me,ye that work iniquity. A lack to understand salvation leads one to this false belief God will never break his promise but men will break theirs
I would think it obvious this refers to unsaved who have gone through life using God's name for personal benefit . They were not Christians . That is the whole point.It certainly is not a scriptual basis to teach that the believer can lose salvation. Not even close. Sorry.Martin W.
Here dan p these are the believers the ministers the preachers He is speaking to here Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me,ye that work iniquity. A lack to understand salvation leads one to this false belief God will never break his promise but men will break theirs
I would think it obvious this refers to unsaved who have gone through life using God's name for personal benefit . They were not Christians . That is the whole point.It certainly is not a scriptual basis to teach that the believer can lose salvation. Not even close. Sorry.Martin W.
QUOTE (Christina @ May 9 2009, 05:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73436
Here dan p these are the believers the ministers the preachers He is speaking to here Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me,ye that work iniquity.[size="3][/size]It is unfortunate that anomia is so often translated “iniquity,” because that word can so easily be set apart from the concept of the law. Word definitions are set by usage. The same is true of “sin.” That word, though accurate enough in itself, seems to be cut loose from the concept of the law. We need to understand that when God gave the law, He defined sin as the transgression of the law. The Apostle John carries this definition from the time of the Old Testament into the New in 1 John 3:4, 4 Every one that practises sin practises also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. The Greek word for law is nomos. The “a” at the beginning of the word is a negative, so the word literally means “no law” or “lawlessness.” Strong's Concordance says that it means “illegality, i.e., violation of law, or (gen.) wickedness.” There are many people today who prophesy—and much of their prophecy is true. But they claim that God's law has been put away and thereby justify lawless behavior whenever they disagree with the law. There are many people today who cast out demons and perform miracles—some of which may be bogus, but many are authentic as well. But they claim that God's law has been put away and act accordingly with no twinge of conscience.Their excuse is that if we were to return to the law, we would have to begin sacrificing animals again. That is not true. Jesus did not put away the law of sacrifice; He fulfilled it. In other words, we still have the law of sacrifice with us today. Jesus is our Sacrifice, our Lamb, our Goat, our Bullock, our Dove. He is all the sacrifices. No, we no longer need the lesser forms of sacrifice that they used in the time of Moses. We have a better Sacrifice—but this did not put away the law. Only the manner of fulfillment changed. The law said that the Passover Lamb had to be without blemish (Ex. 12:5). In the ultimate sense, there was only one Lamb that was without blemish, and that was Jesus Christ. Before Jesus came to earth, the people sacrificed the best that they had, but they were not truly fulfilling the law. Only in Christ is the law fulfilled. Only by the true Lamb of God is the law truly satisfied. There is no other way to fulfill (or be obedient to) the law. The people in Mat. 7:21-23...were people that built upon the foundation thingsthat didn't coincide with the Law of God. In essence, they didn't believe theyhad to be obedient to God's Law and thereby neglected the sanctification, whichis, God writing His Law upon your heart by the trials and tribulations we gothrough in this age to qualify for the high calling. So these people will have to wait for the G.W.T. to receive their immortal bodies.They will will suffer loss, which is, missing the first resurrection where they wouldhave received their immortality earily. They will miss the "BETTER RESURRECTION",where God put's us in leadership...we become kings and priest of God and Jesusis the KING of "KINGS" and LORD of "LORDS"...which we will be in the Tabernacles Age.Logabe A lack to understand salvation leads one to this false belief God will never break his promise but men will break theirs
Here dan p these are the believers the ministers the preachers He is speaking to here Mat 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. Mat 7:22 Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works? Mat 7:23 And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me,ye that work iniquity.[size="3][/size]It is unfortunate that anomia is so often translated “iniquity,” because that word can so easily be set apart from the concept of the law. Word definitions are set by usage. The same is true of “sin.” That word, though accurate enough in itself, seems to be cut loose from the concept of the law. We need to understand that when God gave the law, He defined sin as the transgression of the law. The Apostle John carries this definition from the time of the Old Testament into the New in 1 John 3:4, 4 Every one that practises sin practises also lawlessness; and sin is lawlessness. The Greek word for law is nomos. The “a” at the beginning of the word is a negative, so the word literally means “no law” or “lawlessness.” Strong's Concordance says that it means “illegality, i.e., violation of law, or (gen.) wickedness.” There are many people today who prophesy—and much of their prophecy is true. But they claim that God's law has been put away and thereby justify lawless behavior whenever they disagree with the law. There are many people today who cast out demons and perform miracles—some of which may be bogus, but many are authentic as well. But they claim that God's law has been put away and act accordingly with no twinge of conscience.Their excuse is that if we were to return to the law, we would have to begin sacrificing animals again. That is not true. Jesus did not put away the law of sacrifice; He fulfilled it. In other words, we still have the law of sacrifice with us today. Jesus is our Sacrifice, our Lamb, our Goat, our Bullock, our Dove. He is all the sacrifices. No, we no longer need the lesser forms of sacrifice that they used in the time of Moses. We have a better Sacrifice—but this did not put away the law. Only the manner of fulfillment changed. The law said that the Passover Lamb had to be without blemish (Ex. 12:5). In the ultimate sense, there was only one Lamb that was without blemish, and that was Jesus Christ. Before Jesus came to earth, the people sacrificed the best that they had, but they were not truly fulfilling the law. Only in Christ is the law fulfilled. Only by the true Lamb of God is the law truly satisfied. There is no other way to fulfill (or be obedient to) the law. The people in Mat. 7:21-23...were people that built upon the foundation thingsthat didn't coincide with the Law of God. In essence, they didn't believe theyhad to be obedient to God's Law and thereby neglected the sanctification, whichis, God writing His Law upon your heart by the trials and tribulations we gothrough in this age to qualify for the high calling. So these people will have to wait for the G.W.T. to receive their immortal bodies.They will will suffer loss, which is, missing the first resurrection where they wouldhave received their immortality earily. They will miss the "BETTER RESURRECTION",where God put's us in leadership...we become kings and priest of God and Jesusis the KING of "KINGS" and LORD of "LORDS"...which we will be in the Tabernacles Age.Logabe A lack to understand salvation leads one to this false belief God will never break his promise but men will break theirs
QUOTE (Martin W. @ May 10 2009, 12:38 AM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73451
I would think it obvious this refers to unsaved who have gone through life using God's name for personal benefit . They were not Christians . That is the whole point.It certainly is not a scriptual basis to teach that the believer can lose salvation. Not even close. Sorry.Martin W.
I would think that is is typical of not reading the scripture sense when do non believers call Lord Lord cast out devils in his name but hey believe what you like. As the scrripture says because you believed not the truth .... A great delusion will come upon the world
I would think it obvious this refers to unsaved who have gone through life using God's name for personal benefit . They were not Christians . That is the whole point.It certainly is not a scriptual basis to teach that the believer can lose salvation. Not even close. Sorry.Martin W.
I would think that is is typical of not reading the scripture sense when do non believers call Lord Lord cast out devils in his name but hey believe what you like. As the scrripture says because you believed not the truth .... A great delusion will come upon the world
QUOTE
I would think it obvious this refers to unsaved who have gone through life using God's name for personal benefit . They were not Christians . That is the whole point.It certainly is not a scriptual basis to teach that the believer can lose salvation. Not even close. Sorry.
There is a problem with OSAS, and it is the very same one that plagued it when the doctrine first arose.No one can walk around and say "I am saved." because God is the judge, period -- end of story -- I am not fit to make the call on even my own salvation. The phrase is not "I am saved," but it is should be "I am saved, only by God." Salvation is indeed conditional, for all are not saved. Only through God, with his son dying on the cross, is one saved.This is why humility is called for, and is central to faith. Humans as a whole tend to get to worked up in I, me, and my. They start to go outside of the Word of God to make things more comfortable.The presence of the unpardonable sin is what confirms this. Sin is only forgiven when it is asked to be forgiven. God never said I'll make you white (purged) from sin without even you asking. Read John 3:16 -- if you believe on Him, and only then. Hence the reason Christ said that He is the only way.OSAS, by its very nature, asserts the opposite. It asserts that once you are saved, you are always saved, no matter what. Therein lies the problem, initially manifested in the congregation deciding who the elect were and who they were not. That notion is simply hid in language that couches the reality; it's a great PR campaign, but the holes are still there. This is why the wonderful book of James emphasizes works so much; faith without works is dead (James 2:17, James 2:20, and James 2:26). OSAS is man's doctrine that once you're saved, you're saved. No your not, the unpardonable sin is a clear witness to that, but the very nature of it being a sin that only someone who was a Christian could ask forgiveness for. Satan does not cast out Satan, nor devils cast out devils (Mark 3:23-29) in Christ's name.
I would think it obvious this refers to unsaved who have gone through life using God's name for personal benefit . They were not Christians . That is the whole point.It certainly is not a scriptual basis to teach that the believer can lose salvation. Not even close. Sorry.
There is a problem with OSAS, and it is the very same one that plagued it when the doctrine first arose.No one can walk around and say "I am saved." because God is the judge, period -- end of story -- I am not fit to make the call on even my own salvation. The phrase is not "I am saved," but it is should be "I am saved, only by God." Salvation is indeed conditional, for all are not saved. Only through God, with his son dying on the cross, is one saved.This is why humility is called for, and is central to faith. Humans as a whole tend to get to worked up in I, me, and my. They start to go outside of the Word of God to make things more comfortable.The presence of the unpardonable sin is what confirms this. Sin is only forgiven when it is asked to be forgiven. God never said I'll make you white (purged) from sin without even you asking. Read John 3:16 -- if you believe on Him, and only then. Hence the reason Christ said that He is the only way.OSAS, by its very nature, asserts the opposite. It asserts that once you are saved, you are always saved, no matter what. Therein lies the problem, initially manifested in the congregation deciding who the elect were and who they were not. That notion is simply hid in language that couches the reality; it's a great PR campaign, but the holes are still there. This is why the wonderful book of James emphasizes works so much; faith without works is dead (James 2:17, James 2:20, and James 2:26). OSAS is man's doctrine that once you're saved, you're saved. No your not, the unpardonable sin is a clear witness to that, but the very nature of it being a sin that only someone who was a Christian could ask forgiveness for. Satan does not cast out Satan, nor devils cast out devils (Mark 3:23-29) in Christ's name.
Let us say this, The scripture never ever ever ever contraicts itelf. There just tends to be a lack of understanding among the peopleThe concept of a person, the elect of God, someone truely brought to grace, being able to just run free to do what ever they want does not hamonize with scripture,Hebrews 12:14) Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.Santification has to happen for the elect of God.This is the error, people misinterperate or do not make sure they are not contradicting scripture. When someone states that the elect can run wild in the evils of the would, that is clearly falsehood. Now this I will say, Everyone call call themselves the elect, but just as Jesus said with false prophets this goes for false Christians as well.Matthew 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.Now everyone, take a real close look at this verse!Matthew 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Look at the lifestyle of that person. People, A real Christian does pass the test of 1 john. How can a person be walking in darkness, or have hibitual sin, or hate his brother, or not living a life in a way of obedeince to God and His commandments, or loving the world, be a believer regaurdless of what they say with their mouth? They are NOT true believers. Those saved forever are they who have been regenerated by God. Those who will have evidence in their lifestyle manifest. This is something that is pointed to in the new testament many times.Simply put, Jesus CANT lie, If what He said was not true, then
Jesus said37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.Plainly put, under no circumstance will those that come to Christ will He cast out, why? (by the way, santification still happens)44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.will = indicates a certaintyAnother thing to note is that if a person be drawn to Christ, then them become part of the Church. And will any member in the body (Church) fall to the gates of hell? if so please just give me a scripture that indicates this.as a note, All those who say "Lord, Lord", in matthew 7, He never knew, but His sheep are know of Him. Thus what is concluded, those who Christ says depart from me, were never His sheep to begin with regaurdless of claim.One more critical question, what is the role of a shepherd over the sheep? because that is what Jesus is, the "good shepherd"Forget the term "Once saved, always saved", I will say this to be true, TESF = The elect saved forever
QUOTE (watchman @ May 8 2009, 11:52 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73393
We are to love everyone saved or not. The fact is that most people who believe OSAS are not saved they are living in a false sense of security because of the false teaching of the Pastors (who is in real trouble by the way). Further more not everyone that confesses Christ are saved.Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
This is true and we have a way to live in Christ, the scriptures make this clear to us. The meek will inherit the kingdom of God and the humble. Humble ourselves before God, acknowledging the sins we commit just as David did and then stopping them just as David did and repenting. He set the perfect way to be in repentance and in overcoming sin. As Jesus did even a greater work for us to follow in him. Matthew 12:42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; for she came from the ENDS of the earth to LISTEN to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. IMHO the queen of the south came from the ends of the earth to listen to what Solomon had to say and she followed what she was told by Solomon for she is going to rise in the resurrection and condemn those that were called and did not listen be it Jew or Gentile. Vickie
We are to love everyone saved or not. The fact is that most people who believe OSAS are not saved they are living in a false sense of security because of the false teaching of the Pastors (who is in real trouble by the way). Further more not everyone that confesses Christ are saved.Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.Titus 1:16 They profess that they know God; but in works they deny him, being abominable, and disobedient, and unto every good work reprobate.
This is true and we have a way to live in Christ, the scriptures make this clear to us. The meek will inherit the kingdom of God and the humble. Humble ourselves before God, acknowledging the sins we commit just as David did and then stopping them just as David did and repenting. He set the perfect way to be in repentance and in overcoming sin. As Jesus did even a greater work for us to follow in him. Matthew 12:42 The Queen of the South will rise at the judgment with this generation and will condemn it; for she came from the ENDS of the earth to LISTEN to Solomon's wisdom, and now one greater than Solomon is here. IMHO the queen of the south came from the ends of the earth to listen to what Solomon had to say and she followed what she was told by Solomon for she is going to rise in the resurrection and condemn those that were called and did not listen be it Jew or Gentile. Vickie
QUOTE (Copper25 @ May 10 2009, 02:47 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73471
Let us say this, The scripture never ever ever ever contraicts itelf. There just tends to be a lack of understanding among the peopleThe concept of a person, the elect of God, someone truely brought to grace, being able to just run free to do what ever they want does not hamonize with scripture,Hebrews 12:14) Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.Santification has to happen for the elect of God.This is the error, people misinterperate or do not make sure they are not contradicting scripture. When someone states that the elect can run wild in the evils of the would, that is clearly falsehood. Now this I will say, Everyone call call themselves the elect, but just as Jesus said with false prophets this goes for false Christians as well.Matthew 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.Now everyone, take a real close look at this verse!Matthew 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Look at the lifestyle of that person. People, A real Christian does pass the test of 1 john. How can a person be walking in darkness, or have hibitual sin, or hate his brother, or not living a life in a way of obedeince to God and His commandments, or loving the world, be a believer regaurdless of what they say with their mouth? They are NOT true believers. Those saved forever are they who have been regenerated by God. Those who will have evidence in their lifestyle manifest. This is something that is pointed to in the new testament many times.Simply put, Jesus CANT lie, If what He said was not true, then
Jesus said37) All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.Plainly put, under no circumstance will those that come to Christ will He cast out, why? (by the way, santification still happens)44) No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.will = indicates a certaintyAnother thing to note is that if a person be drawn to Christ, then them become part of the Church. And will any member in the body (Church) fall to the gates of hell? if so please just give me a scripture that indicates this.as a note, All those who say "Lord, Lord", in matthew 7, He never knew, but His sheep are know of Him. Thus what is concluded, those who Christ says depart from me, were never His sheep to begin with regaurdless of claim.One more critical question, what is the role of a shepherd over the sheep? because that is what Jesus is, the "good shepherd"Forget the term "Once saved, always saved", I will say this to be true, TESF = The elect saved forever
If that's your reasoning that Gods Word is contradictory and it doesn't matter then its not the Inspired Word of God because god is perfect and first was the Word and Lo he comes in the book .............. the fact is there is are no contradictions because it is the inspired word of God and I been studying scripture long enough to know if you have a contradiction You just flat have something wrong So if your way of explaining any doctrine is its ok if it contradicts something else then you may as well throw away the book or just make up your own doctrine because it could never be called fact or truth because so could the contradicting fact Its really a shame when to make a doctrine work ..We can just assume the parts that dont agree with us ..Is just Gods mistake ......... Its no wonder he says there's a famine for the truthYes the Elect are saved but even they can commit the unforgivable sin in fact it can only be committed by the Elect and God literally has to shorten time to keep it from being possible for them to come under the delusion and that still doesn't solve you problem because the Elect are but a small part of believers ... problem is not everyone is of the Elect ...The Elect were chosen before they were born... and it has not a thing to do with OSAS as a doctrine for all believers ... Perhaps when you come to understand there is a difference between the Elect and the believer you will come to see the falseness of this doctrine .... Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elects sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
Let us say this, The scripture never ever ever ever contraicts itelf. There just tends to be a lack of understanding among the peopleThe concept of a person, the elect of God, someone truely brought to grace, being able to just run free to do what ever they want does not hamonize with scripture,Hebrews 12:14) Pursue peace with all men, and the sanctification without which no one will see the Lord.Santification has to happen for the elect of God.This is the error, people misinterperate or do not make sure they are not contradicting scripture. When someone states that the elect can run wild in the evils of the would, that is clearly falsehood. Now this I will say, Everyone call call themselves the elect, but just as Jesus said with false prophets this goes for false Christians as well.Matthew 7:20) Wherefore by their fruits ye shall know them.Now everyone, take a real close look at this verse!Matthew 7:18) A good tree cannot bring forth evil fruit, neither can a corrupt tree bring forth good fruit.Look at the lifestyle of that person. People, A real Christian does pass the test of 1 john. How can a person be walking in darkness, or have hibitual sin, or hate his brother, or not living a life in a way of obedeince to God and His commandments, or loving the world, be a believer regaurdless of what they say with their mouth? They are NOT true believers. Those saved forever are they who have been regenerated by God. Those who will have evidence in their lifestyle manifest. This is something that is pointed to in the new testament many times.Simply put, Jesus CANT lie, If what He said was not true, then
If that's your reasoning that Gods Word is contradictory and it doesn't matter then its not the Inspired Word of God because god is perfect and first was the Word and Lo he comes in the book .............. the fact is there is are no contradictions because it is the inspired word of God and I been studying scripture long enough to know if you have a contradiction You just flat have something wrong So if your way of explaining any doctrine is its ok if it contradicts something else then you may as well throw away the book or just make up your own doctrine because it could never be called fact or truth because so could the contradicting fact Its really a shame when to make a doctrine work ..We can just assume the parts that dont agree with us ..Is just Gods mistake ......... Its no wonder he says there's a famine for the truthYes the Elect are saved but even they can commit the unforgivable sin in fact it can only be committed by the Elect and God literally has to shorten time to keep it from being possible for them to come under the delusion and that still doesn't solve you problem because the Elect are but a small part of believers ... problem is not everyone is of the Elect ...The Elect were chosen before they were born... and it has not a thing to do with OSAS as a doctrine for all believers ... Perhaps when you come to understand there is a difference between the Elect and the believer you will come to see the falseness of this doctrine .... Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if [it were] possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Mar 13:20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elects sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
"Who other than satan would want people to believe that they can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized?Satan is the only one than would have thought up this lie, and his ministers are the ones who teach it." -- Watchman-- Exactly! Why would we be warned repeatedly about guarding our hearts and not being deceived if it didn't have the potential to affect our salvation?
Stumpmaster
Well-Known Member
QUOTE (Denver @ May 10 2009, 01:10 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73463
There is a problem with OSAS, and it is the very same one that plagued it when the doctrine first arose.No one can walk around and say "I am saved." because God is the judge, period -- end of story -- I am not fit to make the call on even my own salvation. The phrase is not "I am saved," but it is should be "I am saved, only by God." Salvation is indeed conditional, for all are not saved. Only through God, with his son dying on the cross, is one saved.This is why humility is called for, and is central to faith. Humans as a whole tend to get to worked up in I, me, and my. They start to go outside of the Word of God to make things more comfortable.The presence of the unpardonable sin is what confirms this. Sin is only forgiven when it is asked to be forgiven. God never said I'll make you white (purged) from sin without even you asking. Read John 3:16 -- if you believe on Him, and only then. Hence the reason Christ said that He is the only way.OSAS, by its very nature, asserts the opposite. It asserts that once you are saved, you are always saved, no matter what. Therein lies the problem, initially manifested in the congregation deciding who the elect were and who they were not. That notion is simply hid in language that couches the reality; it's a great PR campaign, but the holes are still there. This is why the wonderful book of James emphasizes works so much; faith without works is dead (James 2:17, James 2:20, and James 2:26). OSAS is man's doctrine that once you're saved, you're saved. No your not, the unpardonable sin is a clear witness to that, but the very nature of it being a sin that only someone who was a Christian could ask forgiveness for. Satan does not cast out Satan, nor devils cast out devils (Mark 3:23-29) in Christ's name.
I agree, Denver, that the OSAS doctrine has problems, and I put them down to it being thought to mean the same as the commonly held Calvinistic belief of "unconditional election" in which a person is held to be saved through a sovereign irrevocable act of God regardless of the person's own will or ability to choose. It has long been taught by Calvinists that a person who is predestined to be saved cannot resist God's will for them to be saved no matter how hard their heart is. They call this "irresistible grace" and maintain that with respect to their salvation, God can never be conditionally dependent upon anything which one of His creatures may or may not do aside from His choosing of them. If, however, we take the Arminian view that God's eternal omniscient foresight of a sinner's future faith, repentance and perseverance in holy living accounts for Him writing their name in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world, it should be obvious that God can also refrain from writing a person's name in the Book of Life beforehand, knowing that although they did put their hand to the plow they later turned back. Thus it can be said that anyone who falls away or turns back was never really saved, leaving the remnant of those who are "known of God" most assuredly to be saved for eternity. Of course there will always be discussion and debate on this topic, and different interpretations of Scripture. The main thing is that if we continue to have an active and sincere faith in Jesus Christ, God's saving grace continues flowing abundantly through to us.Hebrews 10:22-29(22) " Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.(23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; for He is faithful that promised:(24) And let us consider one another to excite to love and to good works
25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching.(26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,(27) But a certain fearful apprehension of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.(28) He that despised Moses' law, died without mercy under two or three witnesses29) Of how much more severe punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?"
There is a problem with OSAS, and it is the very same one that plagued it when the doctrine first arose.No one can walk around and say "I am saved." because God is the judge, period -- end of story -- I am not fit to make the call on even my own salvation. The phrase is not "I am saved," but it is should be "I am saved, only by God." Salvation is indeed conditional, for all are not saved. Only through God, with his son dying on the cross, is one saved.This is why humility is called for, and is central to faith. Humans as a whole tend to get to worked up in I, me, and my. They start to go outside of the Word of God to make things more comfortable.The presence of the unpardonable sin is what confirms this. Sin is only forgiven when it is asked to be forgiven. God never said I'll make you white (purged) from sin without even you asking. Read John 3:16 -- if you believe on Him, and only then. Hence the reason Christ said that He is the only way.OSAS, by its very nature, asserts the opposite. It asserts that once you are saved, you are always saved, no matter what. Therein lies the problem, initially manifested in the congregation deciding who the elect were and who they were not. That notion is simply hid in language that couches the reality; it's a great PR campaign, but the holes are still there. This is why the wonderful book of James emphasizes works so much; faith without works is dead (James 2:17, James 2:20, and James 2:26). OSAS is man's doctrine that once you're saved, you're saved. No your not, the unpardonable sin is a clear witness to that, but the very nature of it being a sin that only someone who was a Christian could ask forgiveness for. Satan does not cast out Satan, nor devils cast out devils (Mark 3:23-29) in Christ's name.
I agree, Denver, that the OSAS doctrine has problems, and I put them down to it being thought to mean the same as the commonly held Calvinistic belief of "unconditional election" in which a person is held to be saved through a sovereign irrevocable act of God regardless of the person's own will or ability to choose. It has long been taught by Calvinists that a person who is predestined to be saved cannot resist God's will for them to be saved no matter how hard their heart is. They call this "irresistible grace" and maintain that with respect to their salvation, God can never be conditionally dependent upon anything which one of His creatures may or may not do aside from His choosing of them. If, however, we take the Arminian view that God's eternal omniscient foresight of a sinner's future faith, repentance and perseverance in holy living accounts for Him writing their name in the Lamb's Book of Life before the foundation of the world, it should be obvious that God can also refrain from writing a person's name in the Book of Life beforehand, knowing that although they did put their hand to the plow they later turned back. Thus it can be said that anyone who falls away or turns back was never really saved, leaving the remnant of those who are "known of God" most assuredly to be saved for eternity. Of course there will always be discussion and debate on this topic, and different interpretations of Scripture. The main thing is that if we continue to have an active and sincere faith in Jesus Christ, God's saving grace continues flowing abundantly through to us.Hebrews 10:22-29(22) " Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.(23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; for He is faithful that promised:(24) And let us consider one another to excite to love and to good works
25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching.(26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,(27) But a certain fearful apprehension of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.(28) He that despised Moses' law, died without mercy under two or three witnesses29) Of how much more severe punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?"QUOTE
Hebrews 10:22-29(22) " Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.(23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; for He is faithful that promised:(24) And let us consider one another to excite to love and to good works25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching.(26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,(27) But a certain fearful apprehension of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.(28) He that despised Moses' law, died without mercy under two or three witnesses29) Of how much more severe punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?"
I Peter 1:22 Now that "YOU" have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another DEEPLY, from the heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. We have not been born into the kingdom of God YET, but born of seed that must grow, planted in good soil if we live the every word of God. We have only be translated into the kingdom of God by the Holy Spirit given to help prepare us. I Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son he loves. In whom we have redemption, and forgiveness of sins. Jesus has a kingdom given to him, the earth. Those who are elected and chosen, will be in the coming Kingdom of God here on earth which belongs to Christ. Through acceptance of his bloodshed for us, we are forgiven of our sins, and will reign with him as Priest and Kings. The promise first given to the house of Israel. A remnant from Jacob and Judah are a part of the elect. Notice only "A" seed of Jacob is referring to the remnant God will take along with the number of the Gentiles that must come in. For if God cut off and blinded the Jews that the Gentiles be grated in, what more can happen to us if we are not made perfect in Christ, but condemnation at the resurrection coming?Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. Vickie
Hebrews 10:22-29(22) " Let us draw near with a true heart in full assurance of faith, having our hearts sprinkled from an evil conscience, and our bodies washed with pure water.(23) Let us hold fast the profession of our faith without wavering; for He is faithful that promised:(24) And let us consider one another to excite to love and to good works
25) Not forsaking the assembling of ourselves, as the manner of some is; but exhorting one another: and so much the more, as you see the day approaching.(26) For if we sin willfully after we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remains no more sacrifice for sins,(27) But a certain fearful apprehension of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.(28) He that despised Moses' law, died without mercy under two or three witnesses29) Of how much more severe punishment, suppose you, shall he be thought worthy, who has trodden under foot the Son of God, and has counted the blood of the covenant, by which he was sanctified, an unholy thing, and has done despite to the Spirit of grace?"I Peter 1:22 Now that "YOU" have purified yourselves by obeying the truth so that you have sincere love for your brothers, love one another DEEPLY, from the heart. For you have been born again, not of perishable seed, but of imperishable, through the living and enduring word of God. We have not been born into the kingdom of God YET, but born of seed that must grow, planted in good soil if we live the every word of God. We have only be translated into the kingdom of God by the Holy Spirit given to help prepare us. I Col 1:13 For he has rescued us from the dominion of darkness and translated us into the kingdom of the Son he loves. In whom we have redemption, and forgiveness of sins. Jesus has a kingdom given to him, the earth. Those who are elected and chosen, will be in the coming Kingdom of God here on earth which belongs to Christ. Through acceptance of his bloodshed for us, we are forgiven of our sins, and will reign with him as Priest and Kings. The promise first given to the house of Israel. A remnant from Jacob and Judah are a part of the elect. Notice only "A" seed of Jacob is referring to the remnant God will take along with the number of the Gentiles that must come in. For if God cut off and blinded the Jews that the Gentiles be grated in, what more can happen to us if we are not made perfect in Christ, but condemnation at the resurrection coming?Isa 65:9 And I will bring forth a seed out of Jacob, and out of Judah an inheritor of my mountains: and mine elect shall inherit it, and my servants shall dwell there. Vickie
QUOTE (Polar @ May 10 2009, 07:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73482
"Who other than satan would want people to believe that they can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized?Satan is the only one than would have thought up this lie, and his ministers are the ones who teach it." -- Watchman-- Exactly! Why would we be warned repeatedly about guarding our hearts and not being deceived if it didn't have the potential to affect our salvation?
Exactly few seem to understand that its a two way street God gives us the promise that IF we do our part will receive the promise. God doesnt do it for us he gives the opturtunity we can take it or lose it .... if we take it, do our part, he will never break his part.. but we can choose to lose it by our own actions seems no one wants to take responsability they think they can do as they like and then use the excuse well God said .... We are told to beware time and time again but men still choose to believe a lie ... Because they will not hear their father words
"Who other than satan would want people to believe that they can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized?Satan is the only one than would have thought up this lie, and his ministers are the ones who teach it." -- Watchman-- Exactly! Why would we be warned repeatedly about guarding our hearts and not being deceived if it didn't have the potential to affect our salvation?
Exactly few seem to understand that its a two way street God gives us the promise that IF we do our part will receive the promise. God doesnt do it for us he gives the opturtunity we can take it or lose it .... if we take it, do our part, he will never break his part.. but we can choose to lose it by our own actions seems no one wants to take responsability they think they can do as they like and then use the excuse well God said .... We are told to beware time and time again but men still choose to believe a lie ... Because they will not hear their father words
QUOTE (Polar @ May 10 2009, 09:40 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73482
"Who other than satan would want people to believe that they can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized?Satan is the only one than would have thought up this lie, and his ministers are the ones who teach it." -- Watchman-- Exactly! QUOTE
Why would we be warned repeatedly about guarding our hearts and not being deceived if it didn't have the potential to affect our salvation?
Very good question. Now, let's be honest about this thread. The OSAS doctrinebegan with the Baptist Church. I know that because I was a Baptist and thereforethat qualifies me to respond to this doctrine. I have some wonderful friends in theBaptist Church that believe this doctrine and probably 99.9% believe it also.So...what are we going to do. If a Baptist believes this way, "can he /she be saved".I think so...if we rightly divide the Word of Truth. First of all, this isn't a salvationissue, as a matter of fact many Christians will be deceived because it is all through the Word where God's people were deceived. What we need to look @ is...whether or not a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, because that is what saves us from the Lake of Fire, which is, the SecondDeath. That is called justification. Anything passed that "is santification", and that iswhat causes so much confusion among the Sons of God. Santification qualifies youfor the "Better Resurrection" (Heb. 11:35), that is often called the First Resurrection. Paul said, "That I may know Him [Christ], and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead [Greek: exanastasis ek nekron]." Dr. Bullinger comments on this passage in his marginal notes in The Companion Bible. He tells us that the Greek word "exanastasis ek nekron" means OUT-RESURRECTION FROM AMONG THE DEAD. He says that the normal term used is simply "anastasis nekron," which is the resurrection of the dead--meaning all of the dead. But "EXanastasis EK nekron," he says, "implies the resurrection of some, the former of these two classes, the others behind left behind." In other words, Paul was telling the Philippian Church that his desire was to attain the FIRST resurrection--the limited resurrection out from among the rest of the dead. Paul had no doubt that he would be resurrected. But he knew of a "Better Resurrection" (Heb. 11:35) that would occur 1000 years before the general resurrection (Rev. 20:5). Paul did not doubt his salvation, but he did express concern that he might not attain this resurrection out from among the dead. Thus he continues in Phil. 3:12, saying, "NOT THAT I HAVE ALREADY OBTAINED IT, or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus." What is "it" that he had not yet obtained? He had certainly already qualified for the general resurrection as a citizen of the Kingdom. But he knew that "enduring to the end" was required to inherit the first resurrection and to rule with Christ during the thousand years of the Tabernacles Age. By understanding this... it makes us more aware of the difference between a Passover Christian and a Tabernacles ruler ("the sons of God"). In essence, Christians who have had a Passover experience and refuse to enter Pentecost, issaying, I am satisfied with the Second Resurrection. They will be saved, but, likeas by fire (1st Cor. 3:15), meaning, they will be raised in the 2nd Resurrection andgo through their Santification because they refused to go through it now.The point is...they will be saved from the Lake of Fire, which is, a longer correctionwhere unbelievers will experience a long Pentecost (Sanctication) process, wherethey will have to pay for what they done in there body in this life, which is the 1st death. In the first death a person pays for Adam's sin...the second death a person pays for his own sin. I know I said alot but, meditate upon it and God will show it to you by the Spirit.Logabe
"Who other than satan would want people to believe that they can continue in sin, refuse to do the Father will, walk the wide path that leads to destruction, and still get into Heaven, just because at one point they may have asks Jesus into their heart and/or were baptized?Satan is the only one than would have thought up this lie, and his ministers are the ones who teach it." -- Watchman-- Exactly! QUOTE
Why would we be warned repeatedly about guarding our hearts and not being deceived if it didn't have the potential to affect our salvation?
Very good question. Now, let's be honest about this thread. The OSAS doctrinebegan with the Baptist Church. I know that because I was a Baptist and thereforethat qualifies me to respond to this doctrine. I have some wonderful friends in theBaptist Church that believe this doctrine and probably 99.9% believe it also.So...what are we going to do. If a Baptist believes this way, "can he /she be saved".I think so...if we rightly divide the Word of Truth. First of all, this isn't a salvationissue, as a matter of fact many Christians will be deceived because it is all through the Word where God's people were deceived. What we need to look @ is...whether or not a person believes on the Lord Jesus Christ, because that is what saves us from the Lake of Fire, which is, the SecondDeath. That is called justification. Anything passed that "is santification", and that iswhat causes so much confusion among the Sons of God. Santification qualifies youfor the "Better Resurrection" (Heb. 11:35), that is often called the First Resurrection. Paul said, "That I may know Him [Christ], and the power of His resurrection and the fellowship of His sufferings, being conformed to His death; in order that I may attain to the resurrection from the dead [Greek: exanastasis ek nekron]." Dr. Bullinger comments on this passage in his marginal notes in The Companion Bible. He tells us that the Greek word "exanastasis ek nekron" means OUT-RESURRECTION FROM AMONG THE DEAD. He says that the normal term used is simply "anastasis nekron," which is the resurrection of the dead--meaning all of the dead. But "EXanastasis EK nekron," he says, "implies the resurrection of some, the former of these two classes, the others behind left behind." In other words, Paul was telling the Philippian Church that his desire was to attain the FIRST resurrection--the limited resurrection out from among the rest of the dead. Paul had no doubt that he would be resurrected. But he knew of a "Better Resurrection" (Heb. 11:35) that would occur 1000 years before the general resurrection (Rev. 20:5). Paul did not doubt his salvation, but he did express concern that he might not attain this resurrection out from among the dead. Thus he continues in Phil. 3:12, saying, "NOT THAT I HAVE ALREADY OBTAINED IT, or have already become perfect, but I press on in order that I may lay hold of that for which also I was laid hold of by Christ Jesus." What is "it" that he had not yet obtained? He had certainly already qualified for the general resurrection as a citizen of the Kingdom. But he knew that "enduring to the end" was required to inherit the first resurrection and to rule with Christ during the thousand years of the Tabernacles Age. By understanding this... it makes us more aware of the difference between a Passover Christian and a Tabernacles ruler ("the sons of God"). In essence, Christians who have had a Passover experience and refuse to enter Pentecost, issaying, I am satisfied with the Second Resurrection. They will be saved, but, likeas by fire (1st Cor. 3:15), meaning, they will be raised in the 2nd Resurrection andgo through their Santification because they refused to go through it now.The point is...they will be saved from the Lake of Fire, which is, a longer correctionwhere unbelievers will experience a long Pentecost (Sanctication) process, wherethey will have to pay for what they done in there body in this life, which is the 1st death. In the first death a person pays for Adam's sin...the second death a person pays for his own sin. I know I said alot but, meditate upon it and God will show it to you by the Spirit.Logabe
I guess one of the more obvious indicators that "Once saved, always saved" is a falsehood is Matt. 7:22-23:"Many will say to me on that day, 'Lord, Lord, we prophesied in your name, drove out demons in your name, and performed many miracles in your name, didn't we?' Then I will tell them plainly, 'I never knew you. Get away from me, you evildoers!'"It is very difficult to imagine that these people were able to prophesy, cast out demons, and perform miracles in His name if they hadn't first established a releationship with him. Translation: Unless they were first saved. Yet, there is Jesus calling them 'evildoers' and demanding that they depart from him.
A lot of this is confusing... So many different inputs. For clarification, I'm young and don't have a very concrete belief about OSAS. I enjoyed what you, Martin W., and you, Logabe, had to say. Both opinions seem intellectually dense, and I had a little bit of trouble grasping what you guys were talking about. Any further explaining or dumbing-down is appreciated. Especially the bit about the first resurrection/second resurrection. Peaked my interest. Thanks-Mike
QUOTE (GwH @ May 11 2009, 12:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73501
A lot of this is confusing... So many different inputs. For clarification, I'm young and don't have a very concrete belief about OSAS. I enjoyed what you, Martin W., and you, Logabe, had to say. Both opinions seem intellectually dense, and I had a little bit of trouble grasping what you guys were talking about. Any further explaining or dumbing-down is appreciated. Especially the bit about the first resurrection/second resurrection. Peaked my interest. Thanks-Mike
Mike, my advise to you is to study it on your own. You are the one that will go before God in the end and answer for yourself. Know one on this board has a lock on Scripture, we have all been wrong before. Ask God to open it up for you. Also remember who the “author of confusion” is!Many times when I read posts here I am reminded of the OT book of Job, the middle chapters , with Jobs 4 friends giving advise. Read what God tells Job in chapter 38. Pay attention to verse 2. There is a lot of that here.
A lot of this is confusing... So many different inputs. For clarification, I'm young and don't have a very concrete belief about OSAS. I enjoyed what you, Martin W., and you, Logabe, had to say. Both opinions seem intellectually dense, and I had a little bit of trouble grasping what you guys were talking about. Any further explaining or dumbing-down is appreciated. Especially the bit about the first resurrection/second resurrection. Peaked my interest. Thanks-Mike
Mike, my advise to you is to study it on your own. You are the one that will go before God in the end and answer for yourself. Know one on this board has a lock on Scripture, we have all been wrong before. Ask God to open it up for you. Also remember who the “author of confusion” is!Many times when I read posts here I am reminded of the OT book of Job, the middle chapters , with Jobs 4 friends giving advise. Read what God tells Job in chapter 38. Pay attention to verse 2. There is a lot of that here.
forgivenWretch
New Member
If ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is satanic, then so is Jesus dying on the cross for our worthless souls, and John 3:16 is nothing more than a satanic lie.Once a person is saved are they always saved? When people come to know Christ as their Savior, they are brought into a relationship with God that guarantees their salvation as eternally secure. Numerous passages of Scripture declare this fact. (a) Romans 8:30 declares, "And those He predestined, He also called; those He called, He also justified; those He justified, He also glorified." This verse tells us that from the moment God chooses us, it is as if we are glorified in His presence in heaven. There is nothing that can prevent a believer from one day being glorified because God has already purposed it in heaven. Once a person is justified, his salvation is guaranteed - he is as secure as if he is already glorified in heaven.(
Paul asks two crucial questions in Romans 8:33-34 "Who will bring any charge against those whom God has chosen? It is God who justifies. Who is he that condemns? Christ Jesus, who died more than that, who was raised to life - is at the right hand of God and is also interceding for us." Who will bring a charge against God's elect? No one will, because Christ is our advocate. Who will condemn us? No one will, because Christ, the One who died for us, is the one who condemns. We have both the advocate and judge as our Savior.© Believers are born again (regenerated) when they believe (John 3:3; Titus 3:5). For a Christian to lose his salvation, he would have to be un-regenerated. The Bible gives no evidence that the new birth can be taken away. (d) The Holy Spirit indwells all believers (John 14:17; Romans 8:9) and baptizes all believers into the Body of Christ (1 Corinthians 12:13). For a believer to become unsaved, he would have to be "un-indwelt" and detached from the Body of Christ.(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error. (f) For the most conclusive argument, I think Scripture says it best itself, "For I am convinced that neither death nor life, neither angels nor demons, neither the present nor the future, nor any powers, neither height nor depth, nor anything else in all creation, will be able to separate us from the love of God that is in Christ Jesus our Lord" (Romans 8:38-39). Remember the same God who saved you is the same God who will keep you. Once we are saved we are always saved. Our salvation is most definitely eternally secure!http://www.gotquestions.org/once-saved-always-saved.html
QUOTE (GwH @ May 11 2009, 12:05 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73501
A lot of this is confusing... So many different inputs. For clarification, I'm young and don't have a very concrete belief about OSAS. I enjoyed what you, Martin W., and you, Logabe, had to say. Both opinions seem intellectually dense, and I had a little bit of trouble grasping what you guys were talking about. Any further explaining or dumbing-down is appreciated. QUOTE
Especially the bit about the first resurrection/second resurrection. Peaked my interest.
Thanks-MikeMike, most Christians and preachers overlook the fact that there istwo resurrections. The first is just for overcomers as spoken by Johnin Rev. 20:4-6,4 . . . And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. The fact that there is a “first” resurrection mandates that there be a second to follow at a later time. John makes the point that the first resurrection occurs a thousand years prior to the general resurrection, which he talks about later in the chapter.In verse 5 he tells us specifically that “the rest of the dead” would remain dead for a thousand years after the first resurrection. He does not define “the rest of the dead,” but he does make it clear that those who are raised in this first resurrection are believers in Christ. He calls them “blessed and holy,” and he calls them “priests of God and of Christ,” called to reign during the thousand years.Therefore, we can say with certainty that no unbelievers are raised in this first resurrection. John is silent, however, on another intriguing question: Are ALL Christians raised in the first resurrection, or just a portion of them? For the answer to this question, we will look at other passages shortly.Both Jesus and Paul talked about the general, or second resurrection of the dead. There are two very clear statements about this. The first records the words of Jesus in John 5:28, 29.28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in which ALL who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.Here is a resurrection in which both the good and the evildoers shall be raised to life. Both are said to be raised at the same time, for He says, “an hour is coming.” While the word “hour” does not necessarily refer to a sixty-minute period of time, it does indicate that both the good and the evildoers are raised in the same resurrection.The primary difference between the two classes is that the good will be raised to “life,” while the others will be raised to “judgment.”A double witness of this is found in Paul's defense before Felix, who was the Procurator of Judea at the time. Acts 24:14, 15 says,14But this I admit to you, that according to the way which they call a sect, I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law, and that is written in the Prophets; 15having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.Thus, Paul clearly speaks of a single resurrection in which both “the righteous and the wicked” are raised. This can not be the first resurrection, wherein only those “blessed and holy” shall be raised. Paul must be referring to the general resurrection of ALL the dead, small and great, including both righteous and wicked people—all who did not inherit the first resurrection.Paul makes it very clear (as does Jesus) that in this general resurrection there will be found both Christians and nonchristians. The Christians will be found written in “the book of life;” the rest will be judged and “cast into the lake of fire.”And so it is clear that there will be Christians raised in BOTH the first and the second resurrections. Those raised in the first will reign with Christ for a thousand years; the others will miss this, yet will receive life (immortality) at that later time.Hence, the Scriptures make a distinction between the Overcomers and the Church in general. Mike, I hope this has shed some light ofundersanding because if a person don't understand that there is tworesurrrections then the scriptures make no sence to an individual.Logabe
A lot of this is confusing... So many different inputs. For clarification, I'm young and don't have a very concrete belief about OSAS. I enjoyed what you, Martin W., and you, Logabe, had to say. Both opinions seem intellectually dense, and I had a little bit of trouble grasping what you guys were talking about. Any further explaining or dumbing-down is appreciated. QUOTE
Especially the bit about the first resurrection/second resurrection. Peaked my interest.
Thanks-MikeMike, most Christians and preachers overlook the fact that there istwo resurrections. The first is just for overcomers as spoken by Johnin Rev. 20:4-6,4 . . . And they came to life and reigned with Christ for a thousand years. 5 The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were completed. This is the first resurrection. 6 Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection; over these the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with Him for a thousand years. The fact that there is a “first” resurrection mandates that there be a second to follow at a later time. John makes the point that the first resurrection occurs a thousand years prior to the general resurrection, which he talks about later in the chapter.In verse 5 he tells us specifically that “the rest of the dead” would remain dead for a thousand years after the first resurrection. He does not define “the rest of the dead,” but he does make it clear that those who are raised in this first resurrection are believers in Christ. He calls them “blessed and holy,” and he calls them “priests of God and of Christ,” called to reign during the thousand years.Therefore, we can say with certainty that no unbelievers are raised in this first resurrection. John is silent, however, on another intriguing question: Are ALL Christians raised in the first resurrection, or just a portion of them? For the answer to this question, we will look at other passages shortly.Both Jesus and Paul talked about the general, or second resurrection of the dead. There are two very clear statements about this. The first records the words of Jesus in John 5:28, 29.28 Do not marvel at this; for an hour is coming in which ALL who are in the tombs shall hear His voice, 29 and shall come forth; those who did the good deeds to a resurrection of life, those who committed the evil deeds to a resurrection of judgment.Here is a resurrection in which both the good and the evildoers shall be raised to life. Both are said to be raised at the same time, for He says, “an hour is coming.” While the word “hour” does not necessarily refer to a sixty-minute period of time, it does indicate that both the good and the evildoers are raised in the same resurrection.The primary difference between the two classes is that the good will be raised to “life,” while the others will be raised to “judgment.”A double witness of this is found in Paul's defense before Felix, who was the Procurator of Judea at the time. Acts 24:14, 15 says,14But this I admit to you, that according to the way which they call a sect, I do serve the God of our fathers, believing everything that is in accordance with the Law, and that is written in the Prophets; 15having a hope in God, which these men cherish themselves, that there shall certainly be a resurrection of both the righteous and the wicked.Thus, Paul clearly speaks of a single resurrection in which both “the righteous and the wicked” are raised. This can not be the first resurrection, wherein only those “blessed and holy” shall be raised. Paul must be referring to the general resurrection of ALL the dead, small and great, including both righteous and wicked people—all who did not inherit the first resurrection.Paul makes it very clear (as does Jesus) that in this general resurrection there will be found both Christians and nonchristians. The Christians will be found written in “the book of life;” the rest will be judged and “cast into the lake of fire.”And so it is clear that there will be Christians raised in BOTH the first and the second resurrections. Those raised in the first will reign with Christ for a thousand years; the others will miss this, yet will receive life (immortality) at that later time.Hence, the Scriptures make a distinction between the Overcomers and the Church in general. Mike, I hope this has shed some light ofundersanding because if a person don't understand that there is tworesurrrections then the scriptures make no sence to an individual.Logabe
QUOTE (forgivenWretch @ May 11 2009, 02:44 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73504
If ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is satanic, then so is Jesus dying on the cross for our worthless souls, and John 3:16 is nothing more than a satanic lie.
This statement is completely absurd. Jesus died so sinners could be reconciled to the Father, not so people could continue in sin.QUOTE (forgivenWretch @ May 11 2009, 02:44 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73504
(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.
''Believes'' in this verse is a continuous present tense, meaning one who believes now, and continues to believe WILL have eternal life (not that they have already received it). We receive eternal life after we have endured until the end Matthew 24:13. Mark 13:13, Revelation 2:26, not because we have said some prayer. The Bible nor its promise of eternal life is in error, but your understanding of scripture because of false teachers is what is in error.
If ONCE SAVED ALWAYS SAVED is satanic, then so is Jesus dying on the cross for our worthless souls, and John 3:16 is nothing more than a satanic lie.
This statement is completely absurd. Jesus died so sinners could be reconciled to the Father, not so people could continue in sin.QUOTE (forgivenWretch @ May 11 2009, 02:44 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73504
(e) John 3:15 states that whoever believes in Jesus Christ will "have eternal life." If you believe in Christ today and have eternal life, but lose it tomorrow, then it was never "eternal" at all. Hence if you lose your salvation, the promises of eternal life in the Bible would be in error.
''Believes'' in this verse is a continuous present tense, meaning one who believes now, and continues to believe WILL have eternal life (not that they have already received it). We receive eternal life after we have endured until the end Matthew 24:13. Mark 13:13, Revelation 2:26, not because we have said some prayer. The Bible nor its promise of eternal life is in error, but your understanding of scripture because of false teachers is what is in error.
forgivenWretch
New Member
QUOTE (watchman @ May 11 2009, 02:50 PM) index.php?act=findpost&pid=73507
This statement is completely absurd. Jesus died so sinners could be reconciled to the Father, not so people could continue in sin.''Believes'' in this verse is a continuous present tense, meaning one who believes now, and continues to believe WILL have eternal life (not that they have already received it). We receive eternal life after we have endured until the end Matthew 24:13. Mark 13:13, Revelation 2:26, not because we have said some prayer. The Bible nor its promise of eternal life is in error, but your understanding of scripture because of false teachers is what is in error.
This statement is no more absurd than saying that OSAS is satanic. How can anyone who is a child of Christ, say God's word is satanic? Believes is what it takes to become a Christian, period. If I do not believe what I believed to begin with then I never truly believed it in the first place.So, a question? As a Christian, do you not sin every day?QUOTE
Jesus died so sinners could be reconciled to the Father, not so people could continue in sin.
Jesus died only once, for our sins past and present. If what you are saying floats, then He must die over and over, because we are still sinners.
This statement is completely absurd. Jesus died so sinners could be reconciled to the Father, not so people could continue in sin.''Believes'' in this verse is a continuous present tense, meaning one who believes now, and continues to believe WILL have eternal life (not that they have already received it). We receive eternal life after we have endured until the end Matthew 24:13. Mark 13:13, Revelation 2:26, not because we have said some prayer. The Bible nor its promise of eternal life is in error, but your understanding of scripture because of false teachers is what is in error.
This statement is no more absurd than saying that OSAS is satanic. How can anyone who is a child of Christ, say God's word is satanic? Believes is what it takes to become a Christian, period. If I do not believe what I believed to begin with then I never truly believed it in the first place.So, a question? As a Christian, do you not sin every day?QUOTE
Jesus died so sinners could be reconciled to the Father, not so people could continue in sin.
Jesus died only once, for our sins past and present. If what you are saying floats, then He must die over and over, because we are still sinners.
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