Is The Rapture A Literal Event?

[Truther]

On that I would disagree...

Those that are taken in Matthew 24, are those that are fit for destruction. The verses previous to that lay out what is in view....

Matthew 24:37-41 (NKJV) But as the days of Noah were, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 38 For as in the days before the flood, they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noah entered the ark, 39 and did not know until the flood came and took them all away, so also will the coming of the Son of Man be. 40 Then two men will be in the field: one will be taken and the other left. 41 Two women will be grinding at the mill: one will be taken and the other left.

Those taken in the flood were those who did not go into the Ark with Noach. They were the ones eating, drinking, marrying, and did not know. And Yeshua makes the case there that this will be what happens at the end, just as it did in the days of Noach. So by extension, it is those who do not know, i.e. know Yeshua personally, and they are taken for destruction.

It mirrors the judgment of the nations as outlined in Joel 3 of which Yeshua gave an exposition on in Matthew 25.

Paul in 1 Thes 4-5 is actually quoting the words of Jesus Christ in sequence, in Matt 24.

This may amaze you, but I will demonstrate it here.....
Paul quotes Jesus...

15 For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.


Now Paul speaks of the rapture....


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.....

5 But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you.


Now Paul speaks of a thief......


2 For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night.

3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

4 But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief.

5 Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness.

6 Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober.


Now Paul speak of a drunk.....


7 For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night.




Let's now look at the words of Jesus.....



37 But as the days of Noah were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

38 For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark,

39 And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.


The rapture........


40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.


The thief...


43 But know this, that if the goodman of the house had known in what watch the thief would come, he would have watched, and would not have suffered his house to be broken up.

44 Therefore be ye also ready: for in such an hour as ye think not the Son of man cometh.

45 Who then is a faithful and wise servant, whom his lord hath made ruler over his household, to give them meat in due season?

46 Blessed is that servant, whom his lord when he cometh shall find so doing.

47 Verily I say unto you, That he shall make him ruler over all his goods.

48 But and if that evil servant shall say in his heart, My lord delayeth his coming;


The drunk....


49 And shall begin to smite his fellowservants, and to eat and drink with the drunken;




Paul clearly equates his passage sequentially, with the words of Jesus Christ here.

 

[Copperhead]

The rapture........


40 Then shall two be in the field; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one shall be taken, and the other left.

42 Watch therefore: for ye know not what hour your Lord doth come.

Error. Those that are taken in Matthew 24 are those who are fit for destruction. The context was shown in the verses previous to that who was taken in Noah's time. The condemned. Remaining in context, those that are taken are those who are condemned, not those who are righteous and raptured.

Now Paul speaks of the rapture....


16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words.....

Amen! But also Paul elaborates on this in His second letter to the Thessalonians. If you notice in the passage you posted, in the removal of the righteous they are caught up to be with Yeshua. He doesn't physically return to the earth. That comes much later. And Paul wrote to the Thessalonians that the departure will occur before the son of perdition / man of sin / pseudo messiah/ etc is revealed.

A forged letter had been circulating as if from Paul, that these folks were already in the tribulation period. Paul had to remind them that the departure/gathering unto the Lord has to occur first before the man of sin / false messiah / son of perdition could be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming,

Even Isaiah 26 supports the idea of the righteous being caught away and protected during that time, before these tribulation events transpire and the physical return of the Lord. You can see an amplification of what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in this passage.....

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

John 14:2-3 In My Father's house are many mansions [chambers, rooms]; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

I don't have view on what translation is "better". Every translation has some errors in it. I compare several different versions on a regular basis. I really have a fondness for the KJV, but I also know it is fallible and drops the ball in some areas.



That is a non sequitur. The Talmud is commentary, not scripture. And while it definitely has some serious issues in places, it is hardly the greatest evil the world has ever known. I would say the Quran is worse than the Talmud as just one example. It seems to have brought more evil upon the world than the Talmud could ever be equated with.

Translation from one language to another is as such, I would not claim such to be an error tho. Latin would be much better than English any day. English is a shocker for things to be become a misunderstanding.

I would say that the Talmud has no right to be, I would burn the whole lot of it, it's filth! it's mans works madness and such created rubbish like the Quran, it's the same madness of mans works leading the whole show, sure there is seen to be some good in the works of Satan, that's the key to what Satan is peddling, it ropes one in, just like Political Correctness does and people become fanatical about such gods that they want to control there lives, but such people are only short sighted narrow minded morons to be sure.
Fact is that all such people are dictator types that quickly become hostile and use malice at the drop of a hat. little Hitler types who rant and rave and avoid being seriously questioned, because if you do then they have an arsenal of game play cards to deal with you and they have set themselves up in power to control all under them.

Any Christian that gives regard to the Talmud is of Satan, to be sure.

Christians need no Talmud as such is a works of Man, it has the biggest hand in leading the Jews astray, if only Jews studied the OT and tossed the Talmud away, then they could see what Moses was truly on about and come to Jesus, that is a key point. nothing is wrong with the OT that is not in question as to it's validly but I say that the problem is the Talmud, as it's the Whore of Whores !

 

[Truther]

Error. Those that are taken in Matthew 24 are those who are fit for destruction. The context was shown in the verses previous to that who was taken in Noah's time. The condemned. Remaining in context, those that are taken are those who are condemned, not those who are righteous and raptured.



Amen! But also Paul elaborates on this in His second letter to the Thessalonians. If you notice in the passage you posted, in the removal of the righteous they are caught up to be with Yeshua. He doesn't physically return to the earth. That comes much later. And Paul wrote to the Thessalonians that the departure will occur before the son of perdition / man of sin / pseudo messiah/ etc is revealed.

A forged letter had been circulating as if from Paul, that these folks were already in the tribulation period. Paul had to remind them that the departure/gathering unto the Lord has to occur first before the man of sin / false messiah / son of perdition could be revealed.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3 Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our assembling unto him,
2 That ye be not suddenly moved from your mind, nor troubled neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter, as it were from us, as though the day of Christ were at hand.
3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a departing first, and that that man of sin be disclosed, even the son of perdition.

2 Thessalonians 2:7-8 For the mystery of iniquity doth already work: only he which now withholdeth, shall let till he be taken out of the way.
8 And then shall that wicked man be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the Spirit of his mouth, and shall abolish with the brightness of his coming,

Even Isaiah 26 supports the idea of the righteous being caught away and protected during that time, before these tribulation events transpire and the physical return of the Lord. You can see an amplification of what Paul wrote to the Thessalonians in this passage.....

Isaiah 26:19-21 Your dead shall live;
Together with my dead body they shall arise.
Awake and sing, you who dwell in dust;
For your dew is like the dew of herbs,
And the earth shall cast out the dead.
20 Come, my people, enter your chambers,
And shut your doors behind you;
Hide yourself, as it were, for a little moment,
Until the indignation is past.
21 For behold, the Lord comes out of His place
To punish the inhabitants of the earth for their iniquity;
The earth will also disclose her blood,
And will no more cover her slain.

John 14:2-3 In My Father's house are many mansions [chambers, rooms]; if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you. 3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again and receive you to Myself; that where I am, there you may be also.

The fact is, Jesus spoke of a catching away, then the thief, then the drunk in this order.

Paul speaks per the word of the Lord Jesus, quoting Jesus in 1 Thes 4.

Paul speaks of the saints caught away, then a thief, then a drunk.

This is what Paul meant by “this we say by the word of the Lord” as it was a common understanding at the time.

Paul simply equates Matt 24 as the catching away of the saints, not sinners.

Modern theology failed to match these 2 passages, then turn around saying “Paul had a special revelation of the catching away”.

Modern theology needs to learn to read and compare scripture, not debunk them.

 

[Copperhead]

I would say that the Talmud has no right to be, I would burn the whole lot of it, it's filth!

Really... the whole lot of it?

There is a story in the Talmud, where a gentile came to the sage Hillel and asked him to teach all of the Torah while standing on one foot. Hillel stood on one foot and responded.... "That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

Now compare that to what Yeshua (Jesus) said to the pharisee lawyer.....

Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

So then in light of this can you still say that the "whole of lot of it" is filth? So then, by Yeshua teaching essentially the very same thing as Hillel then also filth?

I am pretty confident that you know very little if nothing at all about the Talmud. It gets many things wrong, but it also hits the target on many other things in scripture. And Martin Luther was full of it when he wrote this same sort of nonsense in his treatise... "The Jews And Their Lies". A work that was foundational to the motivation for the holocaust of Nazi Germany. And I say that as a gentile believer.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Really... the whole lot of it?

There is a story in the Talmud, where a gentile came to the sage Hillel and asked him to teach all of the Torah while standing on one foot. Hillel stood on one foot and responded.... "That which is despicable to you, do not do to your fellow, this is the whole Torah, and the rest is commentary, go and learn it."

Now compare that to what Yeshua (Jesus) said to the pharisee lawyer.....

Matthew 22:36-40 "Teacher, which is the great commandment in the law?"
37 Jesus said to him, "'You shall love the Lord your God with all your heart, with all your soul, and with all your mind.' 38 This is the first and great commandment. 39 And the second is like it: You shall love your neighbor as yourself.' 40 On these two commandments hang all the Law and the Prophets."

So then in light of this can you still say that the "whole of lot of it" is filth? So then, by Yeshua teaching essentially the very same thing as Hillel then also filth?

I am pretty confident that you know very little if nothing at all about the Talmud. It gets many things wrong, but it also hits the target on many other things in scripture. And Martin Luther was full of it when he wrote this same sort of nonsense in his treatise... "The Jews And Their Lies". A work that was foundational to the motivation for the holocaust of Nazi Germany. And I say that as a gentile believer.

So you are saying that the Talmud has a place for Christians. I say that it does not at all, but I say that the OT has worthy books to be learned for a Christian but the Talmud has noting to offer a Christian at all, because it's a works of man.

The Talmud is not worthy of God at all.

Martin Luther was correct in many things that he put forward.
The Jews are lost and not worthy of God for 2000 years now and anyone who rejects that is an Ant-Christ in fact.
The Jews were tempted by the Talmud Whore and this is why they were being mislead as to who Jesus Christ was.

There was never a Holocaust in Germany in WW2 it was Genocide and anyone who claims it was a Holocaust is of Satan in fact, I will tell you why this is so. A Holocaust is a burnt offering to God, do you understand that ? ( it's a Burnt offering )
If one claims such was an Holocaust that means that God was the author of such ? do you understand that fact.
The Genocide of the Jews was the works of Man, not God.
In fact it's the Talmud whore that claims such to be a Holocaust and has peddled this rubbish to the stupid goyim fools who gladly picked such dribble up, one thing that the Talmud gets right is their opinion of the goyim as being their cattle and that is why they despise all Goyim of not being worthy of being humans. that is the way that they see you in fact. they see you are their slaves and that's how they undermined the Jews as well.
The Jews have always been enslaved by the letter of the Law, for they do not posses Grace, so this is how such beast in the vineyard controlled the poor Jews, they had them under their feet and still do. the only way for anyone's Salvation is Jesus Christ.

Before one is born again, such a one does not have Grace and such people are enslaved in Sin, this is so for all Jews and Islamic you name it, because they are all lost and only do the will of Mans works, that's why they are all condemned.

The Nazis were created by the Talmud just as Communism was a creation of the Talmud whore and such sticks out like dogs balls, only a fool would look to such rubbish. Nazi and Communism have so much in common with the Talmud whore that it's just amazing, when one truly bothers to look into all such then you will find their is the Key to it all.

 

[Copperhead]

So you are saying that the Talmud has a place for Christians.

Don't try to give the impression I am saying something that I am not. All I stated was there are many points that the Talmud actually gets right, though there is a significant portion that it gets in error. Just like any commentary on the scripture. After all, that is what the Talmud is..... it contains expository comments, traditions, etc. It does give us some insights occasionally that can help regarding understanding the phraseology of the NT. For instance, Yeshua referred to the Hebrew marriage many times. Well then, how would we know the traditions and understanding of the Hebrew marriage of around that era except thru Talmud and other Jewish writings?

The Talmud is like any other literature of antiquity. It contains insights that can help. It is not to be relied on as some foundational teaching. We can even glean such things from early secular writings also. For instance, we would have no understanding of what Peter meant when he wrote regarding hell (Greek - Tartarus" in 2 Peter 2:4. It is the only use of the word "tartarus" in scripture. Only thru Greek literature can we know that it understood to be a deep abode of woe that is as far below literal hades as the earth is below heaven. It is the ultimate darkness reserved especially for the angels that sinned as Peter is talking about.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Jews and Islam are nothing but the abuse of Man.
All people who are not truly born again are slaves to abuse.
The fact is because such people are lost to God, so then we can know such by their works.

Christianity nowadays has been hollowed out from the inside, just as it was with the down fall of the Jews, it's the same mob in the vineyard playing the people for fools. they are masters of manipulation, just look at how they came against Jesus, remember everything that such cunning dogs tried to play against Jesus, they were trying every trick in the book to kill him and what does Jesus say back to such cunning masters, Jesus makes them look like the morons that they truly are every time.
We have such masters working just like back in the day and they bit by bit slowly over the years and they are truly progressing well with such cunning. that in all of the Churches now the greatest commandments are tho shalt not be Politically Incorrect, that's the first and most important commandment and hey look at all the Atheist who swallow such dribble not to mention live by such religiously not to mention so staunchly, their faith in such is truly astounding. I have never seen such faith in the church like that. what possession !

What's the second commandment now ? Racism, tho shall not be a racial ! Racial prejudice I understand to be the position of a fool, but racial ? well just to identify who is who is now a Sin. it's got no foundation as to do with why of such, but it's taboo ! anything that is taboo has it's roots in superstition, such people are fools.

The 3rd commandment, Everyone is now equal ? the lowest denominator is the standard set for all. well that's enslavement. Sodomies is a human rights issue, so you have no rights to question any such, remember you are now the lowest denominator now to, so your opinion means nothing at all.

 

[Copperhead]

Martin Luther was correct in many things that he put forward.

Not in his treatise "The Jews and Their Lies". He really stepped on his duffle bag when he wrote that. It is pure hatred that is about as far from being Christian as one can get. And folks wonder how the Nazi's dreamed up the stuff they did to the Jews in the Holocaust.... they read Martin Luther! There is sure no evidence of the gifts of the spirit from what Luther wrote in this regard. It was done later in his life and as far as I am concerned, negates just about everything he did do right previous to it.

Try reading it sometime. Some of the really nasty stuff can be found online that some have catalogued. Stuff like this, all from "On the Jews and Their Lies".....

"Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as archthieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security."

"No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."

"However, we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering, cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly" [Boy, the really exhibits the Love of Messiah, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah doesn't it? Compare with Joel 3:1-3 and Matthew 25:31-46]

"First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."

"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."

"Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them." [sounds like a statement you made in your previous post]

"Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb." [Luther is advocating killing them if their Rabbis teach]

"Fifth, I advise that safe conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews." [don't even let them travel safely]

"Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping."

"Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."

I can almost hear the speeches of Hitler and Goebbels as I read these things from Martin Luther.

And as claimed in the scripture, at the time Messiah comes, the nations will be judged on how they treated the Hebrew people.....

Joel 3:1-3 (NKJV) "For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.
3 They have cast lots for My people,
Have given a boy as payment for a harlot,
And sold a girl for wine, that they may drink.

And Yeshua expounded on Joel 3 in Matthew 25:31-46.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Don't try to give the impression I am saying something that I am not. All I stated was there are many points that the Talmud actually gets right, though there is a significant portion that it gets in error. Just like any commentary on the scripture. After all, that is what the Talmud is..... it contains expository comments, traditions, etc. It does give us some insights occasionally that can help regarding understanding the phraseology of the NT. For instance, Yeshua referred to the Hebrew marriage many times. Well then, how would we know the traditions and understanding of the Hebrew marriage of around that era except thru Talmud and other Jewish writings?

The Talmud is like any other literature of antiquity. It contains insights that can help. It is not to be relied on as some foundational teaching. We can even glean such things from early secular writings also. For instance, we would have no understanding of what Peter meant when he wrote regarding hell (Greek - Tartarus" in 2 Peter 2:4. It is the only use of the word "tartarus" in scripture. Only thru Greek literature can we know that it understood to be a deep abode of woe that is as far below literal hades as the earth is below heaven. It is the ultimate darkness reserved especially for the angels that sinned as Peter is talking about.

Christians need nothing of the Talmud at all. we have everything in the Bible.

I see your statement, (Israel... the believers insurance policy ? ) well the fact is that Jesus Christ is the King of Israel.

So I would say that Jesus is the way the truth and the light.

Insurance policy's are human works, so I would not put to much faith in such dogs, I know all about such bastards as they will try everything that they can to wriggle out of anything hook or by crook, that is the number one objective duty of the job description.

The State that was nowadays came to be called Israel is a disgrace, it's not Israel at all ! and the true devout Jews will point this out to you, the rubbish that we are being peddled about this State is nonsense from a devout Jewish perspective and a true Christian perspective.

What we have now in the State is like 90% of idiots that would not pass the test to be a Jew, go read the OT, they would be killed under Jewish Law ! in fact all Poofters you name it that is pandered to in the State is nothing to do with Judaism at all. but it surly is a bastardised Satanic sh1t hole. Ask any truly devout Jew and they will tell you what they think of such bastards in the State.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

Not in his treatise "The Jews and Their Lies". He really stepped on his duffle bag when he wrote that. It is pure hatred that is about as far from being Christian as one can get. And folks wonder how the Nazi's dreamed up the stuff they did to the Jews in the Holocaust.... they read Martin Luther! There is sure no evidence of the gifts of the spirit from what Luther wrote in this regard. It was done later in his life and as far as I am concerned, negates just about everything he did do right previous to it.

Try reading it sometime. Some of the really nasty stuff can be found online that some have catalogued. Stuff like this, all from "On the Jews and Their Lies".....

"Moreover, they are nothing but thieves and robbers who daily eat no morsel and wear no thread of clothing which they have not stolen and pilfered from us by means of their accursed usury. Thus they live from day to day, together with wife and child, by theft and robbery, as archthieves and robbers, in the most impenitent security."

"No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."

"However, we must avoid confirming them in their wanton lying, slandering, cursing, and defaming. Nor dare we make ourselves partners in their devilish ranting and raving by shielding and protecting them, by giving them food, drink, and shelter, or by other neighborly" [Boy, the really exhibits the Love of Messiah, the Lion of the Tribe of Judah doesn't it? Compare with Joel 3:1-3 and Matthew 25:31-46]

"First to set fire to their synagogues or schools and to bury and cover with dirt whatever will not burn, so that no man will ever again see a stone or cinder of them."

"Second, I advise that their houses also be razed and destroyed."

"Third, I advise that all their prayer books and Talmudic writings, in which such idolatry, lies, cursing and blasphemy are taught, be taken from them." [sounds like a statement you made in your previous post]

"Fourth, I advise that their rabbis be forbidden to teach henceforth on pain of loss of life and limb." [Luther is advocating killing them if their Rabbis teach]

"Fifth, I advise that safe conduct on the highways be abolished completely for the Jews." [don't even let them travel safely]

"Sixth, I advise that usury be prohibited to them, and that all cash and treasure of silver and gold be taken from them and put aside for safekeeping."

"Seventh, I commend putting a flail, an ax, a hoe, a spade, a distaff, or a spindle into the hands of young, strong Jews and Jewesses and letting them earn their bread in the sweat of their brow, as was imposed on the children of Adam (Gen 3[:19]}. For it is not fitting that they should let us accursed Goyim toil in the sweat of our faces while they, the holy people, idle away their time behind the stove, feasting and farting, and on top of all, boasting blasphemously of their lordship over the Christians by means of our sweat. No, one should toss out these lazy rogues by the seat of their pants."

I can almost hear the speeches of Hitler and Goebbels as I read these things from Martin Luther.

And as claimed in the scripture, at the time Messiah comes, the nations will be judged on how they treated the Hebrew people.....

Joel 3:1-3 (NKJV) "For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.
3 They have cast lots for My people,
Have given a boy as payment for a harlot,
And sold a girl for wine, that they may drink.

And Yeshua expounded on Joel 3 in Matthew 25:31-46.

Martin Luther must of known them then ?
I have not read his point about the Jews for 30 years, but some of it is true you know, like in the 3rd point.

The book of Joel, is 835- 796 BC you know, who do you think is being talked about.
My Authorized KJV reads some what different to what you put forward.

Jesus Christ has come don't you understand that fact. and it's only the people who do not serve the Lord Jesus that are dogs, like you are making out being the problem, the Jews who rejected Jesus are an abomination to the Lord, for they are carnal and appose God. this has always been the problem of the Jews because they turned their back on God and when they did they always failed.

Mat 25:31 Israel is the people of God = Born again Christians. the Jew does not exist once one becomes a Christian.

Only a fool would claim a so called race claiming to be Jews are special, like the Talmud does, it reeks of rubbish just as the Nazis did with their superior race BS ! and here it is today in 2019 still being peddled in the same glory like as that of the Nazi fools in their days clearly as ignorant as ever ! shoving such dribble in your face full on ! like dip sticks that they all are.

I will tell you how to come to God, you must become a Christian and follow only Jesus Christ and anything outside of that foundation is worthless, because it's of the Ant-Christ in fact.

A Christian does not look up to anyone but Jesus Christ.

Any bastard claiming to be a Jew is not worthy of God because they are Anti-Christ they are of Satan, just like anyone who is not Saved .

If you try to make out that the Jewish people are something worthy of God well history proves that they never were without God, so what does that tell you ? without God they are no one and with God all are on the correct path. that's the Key !
I could stomp around claiming to be a Jew myself, but so what ! without the Holy Spirit one is total lost.

If you try to demand a so called race to be the bees knees, such is madness.
I tell you what all that anyone needs is the Holy Spirit Jesus Christ regardless end of story.

Messianic Jews are not Christians and anyone who claims that they are fools, a Christian is a Christian end of story, no one under Christianity is set aside as such, we are all equal under God as all are as one! there is no such thing as a Jewish Christian or Gentile Christian, you can not be one or the other. Bible is clear on that.

Another new age blight is this dribble being peddled now, Judah Christianity values ? no it's called Christianity. not to mention that the values are different in fact. and two different religions in fact.
The Devil is in the detail if you bother to look, it's always trying to be undermining Christianity.
Lets add Judah Christianity so as to undermine and bastardise Christianity, so the majority of people can not tell the difference.
Look Talmud so called Judaism is taking over Christianity and peddling another Jesus, because as sure as hell they do not respect our Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ that's for sure.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

They are talking about another Jesus that they have planed, that is what the knit wit Messianic Jews are truly peddling and they are rejecting that all the Christian people who died over 2000 years, died in vane. they only lead all astray and push the End of times games full on to bring about there man who will be the Devil to rule over all, they worship the Golden Calf, they are all cunning greedy bunch of evil sods who want only to dominate over all, they have informed me as such in works and their plans ! I can see straight through them, they are not born again at all, they are evil as the Nazis or worse in fact and total creeps !

 

[Copperhead]

Joel 3:1-2 (NKJV) "For behold, in those days and at that time,
When I bring back the captives of Judah and Jerusalem,
2 I will also gather all nations,
And bring them down to the Valley of Jehoshaphat;
And I will enter into judgment with them there
On account of My people, My heritage Israel,
Whom they have scattered among the nations;
They have also divided up My land.

The "in those days" follows Joel 2, which clearly shows a end times scenario. Notice in Joel 2 how the bridegroom and bride come out of their chamber. Sound familiar? Isaiah 26 states how the dead come out the earth and the people enter their chambers prior to the the Lord's judgement and wrath coming upon the earth. Yeshua in John 14 talks of Him preparing many mansions (chambers) for us. And is not the church the bride of Christ?

The NASB, NIV, ISV, Green's Literal Translation, etc also show the Hebrew "sapat" as judgement, sentence, ruling, etc. That the KJV used "plead" in the old English has an equivalent meaning, not how we use "plead" today. Vestiges of "plead" do remain somewhat today, like "pleading one's case" in court. Even then, a court or judgement is in view.

The Valley of Jehoshaphat is the valley between the Temple and the Mt. of Olives. Yeshua gave an expository teaching (Matthew 25) on Joel 3 while on the very hill that overlooks that valley in which He will judge the nations yet future.

Matthew 25:32-46 (NKJV Strong's) All the nations will be gathered before Him, and He will separate them one from another, as a shepherd divides his sheep from the goats. 33 And He will set the sheep on His right hand, but the goats on the left. 34 Then the King will say to those on His right hand, 'Come, you blessed of My Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: 35 for I was hungry and you gave Me food; I was thirsty and you gave Me drink; I was a stranger and you took Me in; 36 I was naked and you clothed Me; I was sick and you visited Me; I was in prison and you came to Me.'
37 "Then the righteous will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry and feed You, or thirsty and give You drink? 38 When did we see You a stranger and take You in, or naked and clothe You? 39 Or when did we see You sick, or in prison, and come to You?' 40 And the King will answer and say to them, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did it to one of the least of these My brethren, you did it to Me.'
41 "Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels: 42 for I was hungry and you gave Me no food; I was thirsty and you gave Me no drink; 43 I was a stranger and you did not take Me in, naked and you did not clothe Me, sick and in prison and you did not visit Me.'
44 "Then they also will answer Him, saying, 'Lord, when did we see You hungry or thirsty or a stranger or naked or sick or in prison, and did not minister to You?' 45 Then He will answer them, saying, 'Assuredly, I say to you, inasmuch as you did not do it to one of the least of these, you did not do it to Me.' 46 And these will go away into everlasting punishment, but the righteous into eternal life.

Yeshua is the Lion of the Tribe of Judah, of Jacob (Israel). His brethren are the physical people of Israel that the nations will be judged on how they treated them. Yeshua is speaking to Israelites, not gentiles or the church, as the church had not yet been started. And the church will come with Him when He physically returns to the earth and be ruling with a rod of Iron along with Him, as outlined in Revelation 2:26-27. Those judged to be righteous are those living on the earth at that return and go into the millennial kingdom in physical, human form to repopulate the earth.

Doesn't matter if one is pre-trib, mid trib, post trib, pre-wrath, etc.... it all works out the same in the passage. When Yeshua physically returns and plants His feet on this earth, He returns with His bride, the church, and He will then gather the nations and judge them on how they treated the Hebrew people.

Israel will also be judged and separated in that day, but that is outlined in Ezekiel 20:31-38.

 

[Enoch111]

Messianic Jews are not Christians...

That is incorrect. They believe on Yeshua as their Savior (but chose to call Him Maschiach ( Messiah). At the same time they try to maintain their Jewishness (which is contrary to the New Testament).

"While there are many similarities between Messianic Judaism, Christianity, and Judaism, Messianic Jewish people embrace their Jewish heritage, while believing that Yeshua [Jesus] is the Messiah [Christ], the promised Redeemer of Israel and all of mankind."

Failing to say "Lord Jesus Christ" is a serious matter. Peter said that God had made Him both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36).

 

[Copperhead]

Messianic Jews are not Christians and anyone who claims that they are fools,

You are walking on very thin ice.

The entire NT was written by Messianic Jews. Peter is a Messianic Jew. Paul is also as was John. Even Luke, it can be effectively argued that he was Messianic Jew, not a gentile as tradition has claimed. Was Luke a Gentile?

Paul was very forward about stating how he is a Jew, of the tribe of Benjamin, a Rabbinical scholar who trained under Gamliel, etc and we all know he was also was one of the greatest expositors of the faith in Yeshua. He wrote, in Romans, the definitive systematic theology of the faith. When he was arrested in Jerusalem by the Romans, he was going to the Temple to make the sacrifice for the Nazarite vow as instructed by James, another Messianic Jew, the brother of Yeshua, and head of the Jerusalem congregation. Acts 21.

Paul was a Messianic Jew if there ever was one! And even then, one of the greatest evanglists to the Gentiles.

Your accusations are more from Evil One than you realize. That you espouse these hateful things as you do surely gives evidence that you do not have the gift of the Spirit and led by Him. And calling those in the body "fools" is saying they deny the Lord. You have not been given the authority in heaven or on earth to make that judgement of the brethren. It would seem you are the one who has been sent in to stir division in the body.

 

[Reggie Belafonte]

That is incorrect. They believe on Yeshua as their Savior (but chose to call Him Maschiach ( Messiah). At the same time they try to maintain their Jewishness (which is contrary to the New Testament).

"While there are many similarities between Messianic Judaism, Christianity, and Judaism, Messianic Jewish people embrace their Jewish heritage, while believing that Yeshua [Jesus] is the Messiah [Christ], the promised Redeemer of Israel and all of mankind."

Failing to say "Lord Jesus Christ" is a serious matter. Peter said that God had made Him both Lord and Christ (Acts 2:36).

Yes but they do not know Jesus Christ, or they would take it up and become Christians, they are not born again, as they only know some what of Jesus.
Anyone can keep there heritage and become a Christian.

 

[brakelite]

For instance, we would have no understanding of what Peter meant when he wrote regarding hell (Greek - Tartarus" in 2 Peter 2:4. It is the only use of the word "tartarus" in scripture. Only thru Greek literature can we know that it understood to be a deep abode of woe that is as far below literal hades as the earth is below heaven. It is the ultimate darkness reserved especially for the angels that sinned as Peter is talking about.

So we are to take Greek mythology as a true expository for the NT? You dont think Peter may have been using the expression metaphorically?

 

[Copperhead]

So we are to take Greek mythology as a true expository for the NT? You dont think Peter may have been using the expression metaphorically?

I have no clue what Peter thought about it since I have never met Peter yet and discussed it with Him. But there are instances in scripture where even Paul quoted extra Biblical stuff. Do we throw those out? Hardly. But it is very sound hermeneutics to see how a word was used in secular literature of the language being studied to glean what the prevailing understanding of a word was. Imposing 21st century thought on a word from the 1st century is not a grounded methodology

 

[brakelite]

I have no clue what Peter thought about it since I have never met Peter yet and discussed it with Him. But there instances in scripture where even Paul quoted extra Biblical stuff. Do we throw those out? Hardly. But it is very sound hermeneutics to see how a word was used in secular literature of the language being studied to glean what the prevailing understanding of a word was.

Perhaps, but not to fashion a doctrine upon it which contradicts the redt of scripture.

 

[Copperhead]

Perhaps, but not to fashion a doctrine upon it which contradicts the redt of scripture.

Where is the contradiction? Jude backs up the same idea that there was a special place reserved for angels that got totally out of line. That many see the specific Greek "tartarus" used by Peter as a deep abode of woe as far below hades as the earth is below heaven is not a stretch in the least.

2 Peter 2:4 (NKJV) For if God did not spare the angels who sinned, but cast them down to hell [tartarus] and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved for judgment;

Jude 1:6 (NKJV) And the angels who did not keep their proper domain, but left their own abode, He has reserved in everlasting chains under darkness for the judgment of the great day;