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Featured Is The Rapture A Literal Event?

Discussion in 'Christian Debate Forum' started by Hidden In Him, Jul 21, 2019.

  1. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Some spiritualize many of the things scripture talks about, including the rapture. For those who do, I wanted to create a thread to ask for proofs that the rapture of the church is not a literal event. It seems to come up from time to time.

    I will start by posting one of the primary texts on it in 1st Thessalonians, but please note: This thread will be strictly limited in scope to minutely dissecting what every verse and word in the relevant passages refers to specifically, and I will police this thread to make sure it stays that way.

    Blessings in Christ

    But I do not want you to be ignorant, brothers, concerning those who are [now] sleeping, so that you not be grieved even as the rest who do not have hope. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, so also will God through Jesus bring with Him those who have fallen asleep. For we say this to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are still alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall in no way precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet of God, and the dead in Christ shall rise first. Then we who are alive and remaining shall be caught away in the clouds to a meeting of the Lord in the air, and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Therefore, encourage one another with these words. (1 Thessalonians 4:13-18)

    @bbyrd009, @amadeus
     
    Last edited: Jul 21, 2019
  2. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    @amadeus: I know you said something about not favoring limiting threads down to a tighter focus and all, so no big deal if this thread isn't your cup of tea. I just noticed that you responded favorably to one of Byrd's posts on this subject, so I was curious what your take on the issue was.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  3. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Good God let's hope so! God is spirit, and if we are not for Him and have a desire to become One with Him, we are against Him.
    But you are under the wrong impression. The rapture, in other words the resurrection...is the first "literal" experience of mankind! That is, it is man's moment of re-birth, being born of the spirit of God and into His literal and spiritual presence.

    All the world and "creation"...was rather just an "image" of man's gestation. Do you not know that the world, like the womb is a hollow place of exile?
     
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  4. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Hi, Scott. I almost invited you to this thread so I'm glad you found it. But now, slow down and give me exegesis on the passage at hand for starters. Let's take things one at a time. There are passages that deal with the spiritual resurrection verses the literal one, but they are not listed in the OP. As stated in the OP, I will be policing this thread to stay on focus.

    Give me your exegesis on 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, please. If we can't discuss the actual scriptures, everything just turns into conjecture, opinion, and personal speculation.
     
  5. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Well it is good of you to make that clear, because my first post was a direct rely to your first post...not just 1 Thessalonians 4:13-18, but all of it.

    As for that one part, and after looking up the meaning of "exegesis"...here is my "critical explanation or interpretation of the scripture":

    As I said, Paul was referring to the resurrection, the time when everyone born of the spirit of God meets Him face to face in spiritual birth--which is the first "literal" thing mankind experiences. For it is God whom is spirit that is literal, while men of flesh are not, but mere "creations", created "images" in the "likeness" of our heavenly Father. That is, until they are born again as children of His spirit, which is the resurrection...or "rapture" if you prefer.
     
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  6. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Ok, and when do you believe this resurrection happened for the New Testament saints? Was it still future, or had it already happened?

    Say the apostle Paul for example, and those he was writing to; had this resurrection already taken place for them yet?
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
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  7. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Unfortunately, we do not have a forum for Fantasies, otherwise this is where that belongs.

    For those who believe that the Rapture is not literal, how do you rationalize your belief that the first coming of Christ was literal? Or is that also treated as a fantasy?

    Well, we will leave this thread to the spiritualizers, and we can also see some bizarre ideas already cropping up.
     
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  8. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    This really takes the cake! If you had planned to thoroughly confuse your readers, you succeeded admirably.
     
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  9. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I really stopped considering a rapture in the way that most people do a long time ago... because everyday people are dying naturally. Some few of them certainly are with God still. For them there is to be no "catching away" other than whatever has happened to them when the natural body died. Their course is finished. I focus rather on staying on the Lord's side always. If I am there the matter of a rapture or no rapture would not ultimately matter, would it...? But more on this later...

    First: I responded with a "like" to @bbyrd009 when I saw his post showing only the word "never". When I went back to look at it either the software messed up or he edited the post adding a lot more to the word, "never". I was not against his post, but I am not certain I would have put a "like" on it. I left it alone. I don't like to reverse likes after they have been given. I am not saying I did not like it but it was more complicated than I thought it was.

    As to a resurrection I am with @ScottA on this. We came to Life when we met Jesus and received the Life he came to bring us. The first coming of Jesus was when he was born to Mary in Bethlehem. Why would the second not be when he comes to us as an individual and we receive Life? This is also not something I have done a lot of specific study on... I do read and pray and study the scriptures but hopefully as the Spirit directs, and so far...?

    Later...
    If you have read any of my posts regarding the Church and Bride you will see that I favor a Bride that comes out of the Church. This coming out of the Church could be a so-called rapture. When I used to look at it a few years ago one thing I did notice was that sometimes the order of the removal [the rapture?] was reversed from what one should expect with the traditional rapture theory... as for instance:


    "Let both grow together until the harvest: and in the time of harvest I will say to the reapers, Gather ye together first the tares, and bind them in bundles to burn them: but gather the wheat into my barn." Matt 13:30

    Then again there is this verse which should make a person wonder why he would be removed from the scene of any forthcoming tribulations:

    "Remember the word that I said unto you, The servant is not greater than his lord. If they have persecuted me, they will also persecute you; if they have kept my saying, they will keep yours also." John 15:20

    Also as I mentioned above with regard to natural death: Some of us will die a natural death before the end of time. Some of us will remain through whatever persecutions that are for us during our natural lifetimes. Let us not tempt God by assuming or presuming that we will not have to suffer in this flesh before our time is finished! If we do then we do. Not everyone will be crucified physically as Jesus was. Not everyone will be stoned to death as Stephen was. Some may die sleeping comfortably in their beds. But I simply seek His face today while it is day.

    "But seek ye first the kingdom of God, and his righteousness; and all these things shall be added unto you.
    Take therefore no thought for the morrow: for the morrow shall take thought for the things of itself. Sufficient unto the day is the evil thereof." Matt 6:33-34


    Looking just now I found the following notes I wrote down about 10 years ago:

    If there were to be a "rapture" why would Jesus pray to His Father in this way?

    "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15

    Why would Jesus speak of the "elect" as if they were going to go through "great tribulation"?

    "For then shall be great tribulation, such as was not since the beginning of the world to this time, no, nor ever shall be.
    And except those days should be shortened, there should no flesh be saved: but for the elect's sake those days shall be shortened." Matt 24:21-22


    If there is a great tribulation as some people expect and I am still here, I'll go through it. Why should I not? This recalls my recent thoughts about Caleb and Joshua going through that 40 years in the desert along with the children of Israel who would die there. They came out of the wilderness but not until the trials there were finished even though they did not doubt God as did those others.
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
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  10. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    ha, i was prompted to warn you of the edit there, too, next time i will. I would prefer to have stopped at never too, fwiw. Irl i would have, surely.
     
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  11. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Paul and the generation of Christ were on the cusp of the promises of God and Christ coming to fruition, in whom "It is finished." The apostles are in fact the best and the worst examples. Thus Paul and the other apostles wrote as if they were not born of the spirit, and also as if they were, for they were preaching to both the saved and the unsaved. As a result, passages like "To live is Christ" and "I see in my members a different law" would even seem to be controversial...for rightly so, Paul was held off by God not able to say some of what he knew. His words therefore have contributed to both the advancement of the truth and also to the prolonging of the truth, and even to the controversy in the things we now are divided over. A double edged sword. And yet this he did at the hand of the Lord, which he did to see the days of the gentiles fulfilled over many generations.

    Nonetheless, it is as the truth was preached by Christ and His apostles including Paul: "in a moment, in the twinkling of an eye all are changed", but "each in his own order." Meaning (by "rightly dividing the word of truth") there is a mass event with God in that we "were" all raised up with Christ, but no mass event with men or in the world. Certainly, no future mass even, for that is against the word to the gentiles for these times, which according to Paul is "each in his own order."

    As for Israel, they are with the Lord, "the dead in Christ", of whom Jesus was "the Last."
     
    Last edited: Jul 22, 2019
  12. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Ok, more later. You would have to explain. It sounds like you reacted to an over-stressing of the importance of the rapture, which I can understand. There are those who are way too concerned about an event they will never live to see.
    LoL. I sometimes reverse them in the course of about two seconds or so, because I react too fast and then read a sentence at the very end that is completely untenable, and throws the whole post right down the commode, LoL. (Not Byrd's mind you, just posts).
    I do believe in the resurrection in Spirit, and it is an important teaching of Paul's that many don't seem to fully grasp. My only problem is when people throw out the resurrection of the body in light of it. Scriptures that there is a spiritual resurrection of sorts, but an unquestioned resurrection of the body as well.

    But yes, for later maybe.
    I have come to see a distinction between the church and the Bride, as per the recent discussion we had about one of the parables.

    About the Parable of the Tares, the. reference is to false Christians and likely the return of the Gnostics, since this is who it applied to especially during NT times. They were the ones who "gathered" around Simon Magus, history's first False Christ. So the "gathering" of them is referred to in Matthew 24:28, where it says:

    Then if any man shall say unto you, Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not.

    24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall show great signs and wonders, insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. 25 Behold, I have told you before. 26 Therefore if they shall say to you, "Behold, he is in the desert," so go not forth. "Behold, he is in the secret chambers," believe it not. 27 For as the lightning comes out of the east and shines even unto the west, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. 28 For wheresoever the carcass is, there will the vultures be gathered together.


    The parable of the tares says they will be gathered "into bundles," and these bundles will be the various groups that gather around the individual False Christs who arise, since v.24 says there will be False Christs (plural) who arise during the times just before Christ returns.

    Let me post this much and finish my response in another post. My computer is doing funny things and won't let me add more quotes atm...
     
  13. ScottA

    ScottA Well-Known Member

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    Yes, kind of like the idea of being born again. (Duh!) Yet there are still many who are befuddled like Nicodemus.
     
  14. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Oh absolutely! If this is what you were driving at then I completely agree. But now, I don't think that eliminates the possibility of the rapture. It just means that believers, and especially Pre-Tribulationists, need to be careful not to think it will be a "get out of suffering Free" card. It won't be.
    Well, for me, these words were spoken over the disciples in particular, with reference to their having to endure for quite some time until His return without becoming corrupted (Matthew 24:48-51). So for me, it isn't really talking about the rapture but rather enduring until the time of the rapture (Matthew 24:40-46).
    Absolutely! :)

    Thanks for the post, Amadeus. That was quite a lot to respond to. God knows whatever other posts I have to respond to this morning, but that one was some work, LoL. But I appreciate you sharing your thoughts on it. People may think I'm a (I was gonna say hard --s here, but not the best expression) dictator when it comes to Bible interpretation, but a lot of it is trying to nail down what others believe and then share what I do. You are free to believe whatever you wish to about all these things. Makes no difference to me, my brother, and thanks again for sharing.
     
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  15. Helen

    Helen Well-Known Member

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  16. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    I may have misunderstood you here, but in any case...

    "I pray not that thou shouldest take them out of the world, but that thou shouldest keep them from the evil." John 17:15

    "Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;" John 17:20
     
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  17. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    If you were talking here about Christ not being "fully formed" in them yet, I understand. But I can't say as I agree with the notion that they identified themselves as not even born again yet simply because they were preaching to both the saved and the unsaved...

    I think you are taking "be all things to all men" too far. If they were not already something they were urging their hearers to become, then the logical response from sinners would have been that they needed to worry first about practicing what they preached.
     
  18. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Amadeus said a lot in Post #9, LoL. Took me two hours to even want to log back on.
     
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  19. Hidden In Him

    Hidden In Him Well-Known Member

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    Yes, i.e. praying that the entire church not be corrupted.
     
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  20. amadeus

    amadeus Well-Known Member

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    But many people don't believe his prayer accomplished its purpose. What they do not understand is that not every person who attends a church meeting and not every person who says that he is a part of the Church really is a part. The Church will not be corrupted in the end of the matter. Jesus did not pray for us for naught.
     
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  21. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Unless we interpret Scriptures in their proper context, we will simply go round and round in confusion. The apostles (firstly) and then the Church, were meant to remain on this earth UNTIL THE RAPTURE. Until the fulness of the Gentiles had come into the Church. Therefore we are still here.

    But there is a time limit as well as a numerical limit on the Church, and once that is complete, the Church will be taken out of this earth, just as Enoch was translated at the right time.

    Do those verse (quoted above) have any bearing on the Rapture?None whatsoever. Why don't you go to John 14:1-3 and see the meaning of the Rapture in that passage?
     
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