IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

[rebuilder 454]

You're confusing your system with Scripture.

Revelation 14:14 doesn’t support your timeline — and it certainly doesn’t describe a “Jewish rapture” or a mid-point secret event. The passage is a symbolic picture of final judgment, not a separate event squeezed between two comings.

“Behold, a white cloud, and seated on the cloud one like a son of man, with a golden crown on his head, and a sharp sickle in his hand...” — Revelation 14:14

This is harvest imagery straight from Matthew 13, where Jesus explains exactly what it means:

“The harvest is the end of the age... The Son of Man will send His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all causes of sin... Then the righteous will shine like the sun in the kingdom of their Father.” — Matthew 13:39–43

One harvest. One return. At the end.

You don’t get to split the harvest into Church vs. Israel, pre-trib vs. mid-trib vs. post-trib. That’s not exegesis — that’s theological surgery on a text that’s not broken.

As for the 10 virgins — Jesus makes the timing clear:

“At midnight the cry rang out: ‘Here’s the bridegroom! Come out to meet him!’” — Matthew 25:6

They all fall asleep. All of them wake up. Some go in. Some are shut out.
That’s not two stages — that’s one sudden arrival. No pre-warning. No partial rapture. No phases.

So no, Scripture does not testify differently than what I’ve said. What it does testify against is the Scofield fantasy you’ve been handed — a fantasy that never existed in the early Church, never appears in the Gospels, and has to be read into every passage you’re quoting.

If you're going to accuse others of "being blatantly against Scripture," make sure your system actually comes from Scripture — not a 19th-century prophecy chart.

Lol
Yeah right.
Who wouldda thought that a Jewish harvest follows Jewish firstfuits..

I forgot to add that to the list of voided verses by your doctrine.
There are 2 more as you just pointed out.
1) the 144k ethnic Jews from ethnic Jewish tribes, numbered 2 different ways,from SPECIFIC TRIBES. (Chopped down by your doctrine).
2) firstfruits Jews are meaningless as your doctrine requires the omission of main Jewish harvest.

 

[rebuilder 454]

You just listed a bunch of vague claims with no exegesis, no verses, and no coherence.
That’s not Bible study — that’s a temper tantrum.

Meanwhile, I gave you 1 Corinthians 15:23 and 1 Thessalonians 4:15–16, which clearly say:
“Each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at His coming, those who belong to Him.”
“We who are alive… will not precede those who have fallen asleep… the dead in Christ will rise first.”

Where’s the secret phase?
Where’s the 7-year gap?
Where’s the “tribulation leftovers” category?

It’s not there. You’re adding that with Scofield’s crayons.

Let’s talk about your foundation:
You base your entire theology on a 19th-century con man’s footnotes — literally a contracted lawyer with Rockefeller/Oxford ties who twisted Scripture to fit his Zionist fantasy — and then mock me for respecting the early Church that canonized the Bible you pretend to defend?

Newsflash:
The apostles weren’t dispensationalists.
The early Church wasn’t dispensationalist.
Jesus wasn’t a dispensationalist.

You can keep throwing a Scofield Study Bible at every verse that disproves you…
But until you can show me where Scripture actually teaches multiple resurrections for the saved, your whole system collapses.

You’re out here preaching a Scofield rapture like it came down on stone tablets — but not a single apostle, Church Father, or martyr ever heard of it. You had to wait 1,800 years for a Zionist-funded con man to “discover” it in a verse that never says it.
That’s not divine revelation — that’s historical amnesia dressed up as prophecy.

Jesus warned about false prophets — He just didn’t say they’d be wearing three-piece suits and printing study Bibles.

If your “blessed hope” wasn’t preached by Jesus, Paul, or the early Church, maybe it’s not hope — maybe it’s heresy.

Your little tantrum without addressing my challenges.
Scofield has failed you again.
....but lives rent free in your brain.
That is torment.
Your torment is from that dead ancients building block.
You invoked them, so now your make believe enemy ghost ,"Scofield, is haunting you

You have Scofield ghost derangement. (SGD)
You invoke that ghost and he is now your tormentor.

One day Crack a bible.
Ditch that debunked mess and discover the adventure and beauty of God's word.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Your little tantrum without addressing my challenges.
Scofield has failed you again.
....but lives rent free in your brain.
That is torment.
Your torment is from that dead ancients building block.
You invoked them, so now your make believe enemy ghost ,"Scofield, is haunting you

You have Scofield ghost derangement. (SGD)
You invoke that ghost and he is now your tormentor.

One day Crack a bible.
Ditch that debunked mess and discover the adventure and beauty of God's word.

You keep dodging Scripture by lobbing insults and projection. That’s not theology — that’s deflection.

You still haven’t answered 1 Corinthians 15:23 or 1 Thessalonians 4:15–16 — because you can’t.
There’s no seven-year gap. No split resurrections. No “tribulation leftovers.”
Just one return. One resurrection. One harvest.

Instead, you accuse me of being "haunted" by Scofield — as if I invented the guy.
I’m not haunted. I’m just not brainwashed.
I know exactly who he was: a lawyer contracted by Oxford, funded by Zionist interests, who rewrote the margins of the Bible and passed it off as doctrine. You defend his edits and blasphemous footnotes like they’re Scripture. That’s the problem.

And don’t kid yourself —
The “beauty and adventure of God’s Word” doesn’t include a secret rapture, multiple resurrections, or an ethnic-based salvation plan.
That’s your Scofield ghost story — not the Gospel.

Crack a Bible? lol...

Brother, I just quoted it (again) and you just ignored it (again).

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

To the lurkers who don’t really know what’s going on here — let me explain it like this:

Remember those “Choose Your Own Adventure” books from when you were a kid?
“You finally reach the dragon’s cave. To enter, turn to page 34. To run away, turn to page 56.”

That’s basically how the Scofield Bible hijacked 80% of American Christianity starting in the 1920s.
It was the ultimate Trojan Horse — a “free Bible” full of study notes designed not to explain Scripture, but to redirect it.

It trained generations of people — especially good-hearted, rural, churchgoing Americans — to ignore plain verses and instead “turn to some other page” where Scofield’s Zionist footnotes could rewrite the story.

Here’s how it works:

You read in Galatians 3:28:
“There is neither Jew nor Greek... you are all one in Christ Jesus.”

But Scofield’s footnote says no no no...:
“Flip back to Genesis — the Jews are still special because of Abraham!”

Completely ignoring the fact that Jesus already fulfilled the promise to Abraham, nailed the Old Covenant to the cross, and established a new and better covenant — with no ethnic favoritism, no second-class citizens, and no backup plan for unbelieving Israel.

“If you are Christ’s, then you are Abraham’s offspring, heirs according to promise.” — Galatians 3:29

That’s the true fulfillment.
No one’s “special.”
Not your DNA.
Not your Rothschild/U.N. land deed.
Not your dreams of a third temple.

Just Christ —
and those in Him.
No dual covenant.
No second plan.
No exceptions.
Only the Gospel.

You read in Revelation that the 144,000 are sealed “from all the tribes of the children of Israel.”

But Scofield whispers:
“Don’t worry, that’s not the Church. That’s ethnic Jews in the future! Forget that Paul said ‘not all who are descended from Israel belong to Israel’ (Romans 9:6) — let’s insert a gap!”

You read in Ephesians 2 that Christ “broke down the dividing wall” between Jew and Gentile and created “one new man.”

But Scofield says:
“Flip to a chart at the back — God still has two plans, two peoples, and two kingdoms. Just ignore Jesus saying, ‘there shall be one flock, one shepherd.’”

That’s the scam.
That’s why the modern Church doesn’t realize it is Israel — not by flesh, but by faith. (which is the only way in, according to the Gospel).
There’s no ethnic fast-pass.
No bloodline exception.
Only those in Christ are Abraham’s offspring — heirs according to the promise.
(Galatians 3:29)

It doesn’t matter if you’re an “ethnic Jew,” a Gentile, or a Russian, Poll or Eastern European in Tel Aviv pretending to be related to Abraham.
If you’re not in the Church — you’re not in Christ. Period.
And if you reject the King of the Jews, you’re out — regardless of lineage or bloodline.

The covenant wasn’t postponed.
It wasn’t rerouted.
It was fulfilled — in Christ.

There’s no such thing as “replacement theology.”
That’s just a slur word people slap on New Testament truth when they’ve never actually read the Bible without Scofield’s footnotes telling them how to think.

It’s not “replacement” — it’s fulfillment.
Jesus didn’t replace Israel. He fulfilled Israel — and then invited everyone in.

But Scofield rewrote the whole story.
He told the Church to expect a second covenant, a second people, a second plan.
A detour. A delay. A different ending.

And sadly…
most of the Church in the 1920s, ‘30s, and ‘40s bought into it — hook, line, and Scofield.
And it’s still plaguing the Church today, misleading millions away from the truth of the Gospel and the identity of the true Israel —
the Body of Christ.

The Scofield Bible deception was unleashed on the Church in 1909, disguised as a gift — millions of “free Bibles”pumped full of Darby/Scofield Zionist footnotes, laced with heresy, and printed in Oxford with Rockefeller backing.

Why?
Because they knew something critical:
Traditional Christians would never support a Rothschild-backed, UN-orchestrated hijacking of Palestine. (The future plan for the 1940s)
The early Church Fathers knew the truth.
Even Christians during the Civil War era understood:
The Church is Israel.
Not dirt.
Not a nation.
Not a flag.
Not a bloodline.
“My kingdom is not of this world.” — Jesus

So what did Scofield & Oxford do?
They rewrote the narrative.
They mass-produced Trojan Horse “study Bibles” and carpet-bombed the American heartland with them.
They aimed straight at the John Boy Waltons of America — humble, God-fearing people — and systematically reprogrammed them to believe that “Israel” meant a political state, not the Body of Christ.

That is blasphemy of the highest order.
A full-scale theological coup.
As wicked as anything Satan has ever sold to the Church.

They didn't just twist Scripture.
They buried the Gospel under a flag, and called it prophecy.

And looking around today — it worked flawlessly.

We went from a time when 100% of the Church knew the truth...
To a world where maybe 20% of Christians even know what Israel is anymore.
They traded the Gospel for a map.
They replaced the Cross with a flag.
They abandoned the King of the Jews — and replaced Him with a Scofield study note.

Christians from 1770 wouldn’t even recognize what passes for Christianity today.
They’d be horrified that anyone calling themselves a follower of Christ could believe that “Israel” means dirt and land— instead of the Body of Christ.

They wouldn’t argue.
They wouldn’t debate charts.
They’d just stare at Fox News, see pastors cheering on war in the name of prophecy…
and probably break down in tears, realizing how deeply the Church has been misled.

From the Cross to the Constitution to Scofield's study notes — That’s the downgrade.
We traded the Kingdom for a country, and the Messiah for a man-made U.N. map.

 

[David in NJ]

There are two return of Christ for His people, the church and Israel.

First return in the clouds where church saints dead and living will be taken up.

Second return with His angels coming down to earth to defend Israel from all their enemies.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ

Fred,
Breakfast is on me if you find just one scripture/prophecy from the Gospel and/or the Apostles and/or Revelation that clearly states more then one 2nd Coming of Christ.

 

[keithr]

Revelation 20, the only passage that explicitly describes two resurrections, says the first resurrection happens after the tribulation, when the martyrs who refused the mark are raised to reign with Christ.

How do you deduce from Revelation 20 that the first resurrection occurs after the great tribulation? What it says about the first resurrection is - Revelation 20:4:6 (WEB):

(4) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.​

(5) The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.​

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

I understand it to mean that the Church is resurrected first (first resurrection) and that only they will be priests and sit on thrones and reign and judge with Jesus. The "souls of those ..." might be referring to the great multitude that come through the great tribulation, and they may play a part in the reign, but they are not sons of God but servants, they are not priests, not joint heirs with Jesus.

Scholars agre that "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished" is an interpolation that probably crept into the text by accident in the fifth century.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

How do you deduce from Revelation 20 that the first resurrection occurs after the great tribulation? What it says about the first resurrection is - Revelation 20:4:6 (WEB):

(4) I saw thrones, and they sat on them, and judgment was given to them. I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded for the testimony of Jesus, and for the word of God, and such as didn’t worship the beast nor his image, and didn’t receive the mark on their forehead and on their hand. They lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.​

(5) The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.​

(6) Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection. Over these, the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ, and will reign with him one thousand years.​

I understand it to mean that the Church is resurrected first (first resurrection) and that only they will be priests and sit on thrones and reign and judge with Jesus. The "souls of those ..." might be referring to the great multitude that come through the great tribulation, and they may play a part in the reign, but they are not sons of God but servants, they are not priests, not joint heirs with Jesus.

Scholars agre that "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished" is an interpolation that probably crept into the text by accident in the fifth century.

Let’s walk this through with the text itself — no gymnastics, no interpolation theories.

Revelation 20:4 clearly says “I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded… who had not worshiped the beast… had not received the mark…” — this places the scene after the tribulation. Why? Because the Beast and the Mark don’t even show up until the tribulation period, and these souls are described in past tense as those who refused the mark and were killed for their faith. That’s the tail end of the tribulation.

Then it says: “They came to life and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years.” That is the first resurrection.

You’re inserting a non-existent gap by trying to divide the first resurrection into “phases” or imply that the Church was raised earlier. But the text doesn’t say that. It says:

“This is the first resurrection.”

Not the second half of the first resurrection.
Not “one group resurrected earlier, then this group later.”
Just: This is the first resurrection.

If “this” (v.4–6) is the first, then there can’t be an earlier one — that would make this the second.

And your argument that the martyrs aren’t sons or priests is also directly refuted by Revelation 20:6, which says:

“Blessed and holy is the one who has a part in the first resurrection. Over such the second death has no power, but they will be priests of God and of Christ and will reign with Him for a thousand years.”

You tried to separate the martyrs from the “priestly” church — but the text explicitly says they are the priests who reign with Christ.

As for the claim that verse 5 (“The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished”) is an interpolation — that’s a fringe theory with zero manuscript evidence from the earliest copies of Revelation. All known Greek manuscripts include it, and major textual critics (Metzger, Aland, Nestle) do not consider it spurious.

That theory is a red herring meant to dodge the plain sequence:

1. Tribulation happens.
2. Beast and Mark appear.
3. Faithful are martyred for refusing.
4. They are resurrected.
5. They reign with Christ.
6. Everyone else is raised after the Millennium.

So again, Revelation 20 doesn’t describe a “pre-trib resurrection” of the Church. It describes the first resurrection happening after the tribulation — when those who endured to the end are raised.

 

[keithr]

Revelation 20:4 clearly says “I saw the souls of those who had been beheaded… who had not worshiped the beast… had not received the mark…” — this places the scene after the tribulation. Why? Because the Beast and the Mark don’t even show up until the tribulation period,

The symbolism of beast is explained in Revelation 17 (WEB):

(9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.​

(10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.​

(11) The beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goes to destruction.​

(12) The ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour.​

(13) These have one mind, and they give their power and authority to the beast.​

(14) These will war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and those who are with him are called chosen and faithful.”​

(15) He said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.​

(16) The ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute, will make her desolate, will strip her naked, will eat her flesh, and will burn her utterly with fire.​

(17) For God has put in their hearts to do what he has in mind, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.​

(18) The woman whom you saw is the great city {Rome}, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”​

It is symbolic of events that happen during the Gospel age (including the time of that John was given the revelation), not of events during the Great Tribulation.

Therefore those described as not having worshiped the beast (the second beast), nor received it's name or mark (I believe it's referring to Islam), could have lived at any time during the last 2,000 years.

and these souls are described in past tense as those who refused the mark and were killed for their faith.

So they probably represent Christians that have lived during the Gospel Age, which ends at the rapture (first resurrection) - before the Great Tribulation.

Then it says: “They came to life and reigned with Christ for 1,000 years.” That is the first resurrection.

A more accurate and literal translation is "they lived", not that they "came to life".

And your argument that the martyrs aren’t sons or priests is also directly refuted by Revelation 20:6, which says:

If they are meant to be the great multitude mentioned in Revelation 7, who came through the great tribulation, then "they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple" (verse 15), whereas the resurrected Church sit on thrones and are priests of God and of Jesus, and will reign with Jesus for one thousand years (Revelation 20:4,6). The resurrected Church will be immortal, whereas the great multitude are not, which is why Jesus "leads them to springs of life-giving waters" (Revelation 7:17), and God will wipe away their tears, tears they will have because they will realise that they missed out on immortality and sharing Jesus' inheritance.

Galatians 4:5-7

(5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.​

(6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.​

(7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.​

The great multitude become servants, not sons.

You tried to separate the martyrs from the “priestly” church — but the text explicitly says they are the priests who reign with Christ.

Which suggest that it (verse 4) is referring to the resurrected Church and not to the great multitude that came through the great tribulation.

As for the claim that verse 5 (“The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished”) is an interpolation — that’s a fringe theory with zero manuscript evidence from the earliest copies of Revelation. All known Greek manuscripts include it, and major textual critics (Metzger, Aland, Nestle) do not consider it spurious.

It's not in the Peshitta New Testament (which "is the only complete Aramaic New Testament known today which is held by a significant Christian denomination to be the original text written by the Apostles. The Church of The East has always held to this text as the original writing of the Apostles") which has (translated into English!):

4. And I saw seats, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and these souls who were cut off for the testimony of Yeshua and for the word of God, and because they did not worship The Beast, neither its Image, nor received a mark between their eyes or on their hands, they lived and reigned with The Messiah for one thousand years;​

5. And this is the first resurrection.​

6. Blessed and holy is he, whoever has part in the first resurrection, and the second death has no authority over these, but they shall be Priests of God and of The Messiah, and they shall reign with him one thousand years.​

​

That theory is a red herring meant to dodge the plain sequence:

1. Tribulation happens.
2. Beast and Mark appear.

As above, I believe that the beast and mark appear (has already appeared) during the Gospel Age.

3. Faithful are martyred for refusing.
4. They are resurrected.
5. They reign with Christ.
6. Everyone else is raised after the Millennium.

I believe that the second resurrection, of the rest of mankind (non-Christians), occurs at the beginning of the Millenium. After all, they are the ones being ruled over, being blessed and restored to perfection during the Millenium. The interpolation that "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished" is a red herring! If it was to be interpreted in harmony with the rest of chapter 20, then you would have to understand that by "didn't live" it means that they don't gain eternal life until the end of the Millenium, after their judgement is finished, i.e.

(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.​

means that the rest of the dead are resurrected, and everyone living through the Millenium will be judged by their works during the Millenium, not by their works during their life before death (for Jesus' sacrifice has paid for their redemption, and forgiveness of sins, too).

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

The symbolism of beast is explained in Revelation 17 (WEB):

(9) Here is the mind that has wisdom. The seven heads are seven mountains on which the woman sits.​

(10) They are seven kings. Five have fallen, the one is, the other has not yet come. When he comes, he must continue a little while.​

(11) The beast that was, and is not, is himself also an eighth, and is of the seven; and he goes to destruction.​

(12) The ten horns that you saw are ten kings who have received no kingdom as yet, but they receive authority as kings, with the beast, for one hour.​

(13) These have one mind, and they give their power and authority to the beast.​

(14) These will war against the Lamb, and the Lamb will overcome them, for he is Lord of lords, and King of kings, and those who are with him are called chosen and faithful.”​

(15) He said to me, “The waters which you saw, where the prostitute sits, are peoples, multitudes, nations, and languages.​

(16) The ten horns which you saw, and the beast, these will hate the prostitute, will make her desolate, will strip her naked, will eat her flesh, and will burn her utterly with fire.​

(17) For God has put in their hearts to do what he has in mind, to be of one mind, and to give their kingdom to the beast, until the words of God should be accomplished.​

(18) The woman whom you saw is the great city {Rome}, which reigns over the kings of the earth.”​

It is symbolic of events that happen during the Gospel age (including the time of that John was given the revelation), not of events during the Great Tribulation.

Therefore those described as not having worshiped the beast (the second beast), nor received it's name or mark (I believe it's referring to Islam), could have lived at any time during the last 2,000 years.


So they probably represent Christians that have lived during the Gospel Age, which ends at the rapture (first resurrection) - before the Great Tribulation.


A more accurate and literal translation is "they lived", not that they "came to life".


If they are meant to be the great multitude mentioned in Revelation 7, who came through the great tribulation, then "they are before the throne of God, they serve him day and night in his temple" (verse 15), whereas the resurrected Church sit on thrones and are priests of God and of Jesus, and will reign with Jesus for one thousand years (Revelation 20:4,6). The resurrected Church will be immortal, whereas the great multitude are not, which is why Jesus "leads them to springs of life-giving waters" (Revelation 7:17), and God will wipe away their tears, tears they will have because they will realise that they missed out on immortality and sharing Jesus' inheritance.

Galatians 4:5-7

(5) To redeem them that were under the law, that we might receive the adoption of sons.​

(6) And because ye are sons, God hath sent forth the Spirit of his Son into your hearts, crying, Abba, Father.​

(7) Wherefore thou art no more a servant, but a son; and if a son, then an heir of God through Christ.​

The great multitude become servants, not sons.


Which suggest that it (verse 4) is referring to the resurrected Church and not to the great multitude that came through the great tribulation.


It's not in the Peshitta New Testament (which "is the only complete Aramaic New Testament known today which is held by a significant Christian denomination to be the original text written by the Apostles. The Church of The East has always held to this text as the original writing of the Apostles") which has (translated into English!):

4. And I saw seats, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given to them, and these souls who were cut off for the testimony of Yeshua and for the word of God, and because they did not worship The Beast, neither its Image, nor received a mark between their eyes or on their hands, they lived and reigned with The Messiah for one thousand years;​

5. And this is the first resurrection.​

6. Blessed and holy is he, whoever has part in the first resurrection, and the second death has no authority over these, but they shall be Priests of God and of The Messiah, and they shall reign with him one thousand years.​

​

As above, I believe that the beast and mark appear (has already appeared) during the Gospel Age.

I believe that the second resurrection, of the rest of mankind (non-Christians), occurs at the beginning of the Millenium. After all, they are the ones being ruled over, being blessed and restored to perfection during the Millenium. The interpolation that "The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished" is a red herring! If it was to be interpreted in harmony with the rest of chapter 20, then you would have to understand that by "didn't live" it means that they don't gain eternal life until the end of the Millenium, after their judgement is finished, i.e.

(13) The sea gave up the dead who were in it. Death and Hades gave up the dead who were in them. They were judged, each one according to his works.​

means that the rest of the dead are resurrected, and everyone living through the Millenium will be judged by their works during the Millenium, not by their works during their life before death (for Jesus' sacrifice has paid for their redemption, and forgiveness of sins, too).

Respectfully, your interpretation twists a straightforward passage into theological origami.

Revelation 20:4–6 clearly outlines a sequence:
Those who refused the Beast and the Mark are martyred.
They are resurrected (not symbolically “lived” — it’s explicitly called the first resurrection).
They reign with Christ for 1,000 years.
Everyone else — “the rest of the dead” — are not raised until after the thousand years.

This isn’t vague. It doesn’t span 2,000 years of allegory. It’s tightly ordered and literal.

You claim the Beast refers to Islam and the Mark spans the whole Gospel Age — but Revelation 13–14 clearly places the Beast, the Image, and the Mark in the context of the final tribulation, directly before Christ returns in glory. The martyrs in Rev 20 refused that specific Mark and died — then are raised.

And yes, Revelation 20:6 calls them priests who reign — just like the Church. No second-class status. No “servants-only” category. That’s something your theology imposes — not what the Word declares.

As for your reliance on the Peshitta to argue interpolation: that’s fringe scholarship. Every known Greek manuscript — including the earliest — contains “the rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished.” Metzger, Aland, and Nestle do not mark it as spurious. So no, it’s not a red herring — it’s just inconvenient for your system.

Lastly, your idea that non-believers are raised before the Millennium and judged for 1,000 years by their “Millennial performance” has zero scriptural foundation. The second resurrection happens after the Millennium (Rev 20:11–13), and it is final judgment — not a second chance.

Bottom line:
There is one first resurrection — and it happens after the tribulation.
There is one return of Christ — not two phases.
There is one Gospel — not a hierarchy of priestly elites and servant-class tribulation survivors.
And there is no second-chance Millennial rehabilitation program for unbelievers.

The text says what it says — plainly. If you have to rewrite the timeline, redefine “resurrection,” and demote martyrs to make your theory work, maybe it’s not the Word that’s the problem.

It's the system you're defending.

 

[keithr]

Lastly, your idea that non-believers are raised before the Millennium and judged for 1,000 years by their “Millennial performance” has zero scriptural foundation. The second resurrection happens after the Millennium (Rev 20:11–13), and it is final judgment — not a second chance.

The "rest of the dead" are resurrected at the beginning, or during the Millenium (please excuse my use of the common mispelling, using just one 'n'!), not before it.

I've made my contribution(s) to this discussion, but I've got a lot on this coming week or more so I may not be able to contribute again for a while. Sorry.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

The "rest of the dead" are resurrected at the beginning, or during the Millenium (please excuse my use of the common mispelling, using just one 'n'!), not before it.

I've made my contribution(s) to this discussion, but I've got a lot on this coming week or more so I may not be able to contribute again for a while. Sorry.

Revelation 20 lays it out with zero ambiguity:

“The rest of the dead did not come to life until the thousand years were ended.” — Rev 20:5
“Then I saw a great white throne and Him who was seated on it… and the dead were judged…” — Rev 20:11–13

There is no wiggle room here.
No hidden clause.
No “Millennial probation” period.
No second chance.

The first resurrection is for the saints — those who reign with Christ for 1,000 years.
The second resurrection is for the rest — and it is after the Millennium, not before or during.
And it is not redemptive. It’s the final judgment.

Trying to insert an entire second-chance program into that timeline requires rewriting the text.
Not interpreting — inventing.

 

[keithr]

The first resurrection is for the saints — those who reign with Christ for 1,000 years.
The second resurrection is for the rest — and it is after the Millennium, not before or during.
And it is not redemptive. It’s the final judgment.

Trying to insert an entire second-chance program into that timeline requires rewriting the text.
Not interpreting — inventing.

You need to consider:

What is the purpose of Jesus reigning for 1,000 years before turning the Kingdom over to God? Who will Christ be reigning over? Why will it take 1,000 years? If only Christians are resurrected to start with, why do the rest of the dead have to wait 1,000 years before they are resurrected? If they are judged by their works during their first life, then they why can't the righteous (of which there are none - Romans 3:10) be resurrected sooner, and what is the point of resurrecting the unrighteous only to immediately condemn them to a second death?

1 John 2:2 (WEB):

(2) And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.​

If Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the whole world (not just Christians) then why are the rest of the dead not given an opportunity of eternal life after they are resurrected?

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (WEB):

(3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;​

(4) who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.​

John 3:17 (WEB):

(17) For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.​

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

You need to consider:

What is the purpose of Jesus reigning for 1,000 years before turning the Kingdom over to God? Who will Christ be reigning over? Why will it take 1,000 years? If only Christians are resurrected to start with, why do the rest of the dead have to wait 1,000 years before they are resurrected? If they are judged by their works during their first life, then they why can't the righteous (of which there are none - Romans 3:10) be resurrected sooner, and what is the point of resurrecting the unrighteous only to immediately condemn them to a second death?

1 John 2:2 (WEB):

(2) And he is the atoning sacrifice for our sins, and not for ours only, but also for the whole world.​

If Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the whole world (not just Christians) then why are the rest of the dead not given an opportunity of eternal life after they are resurrected?

1 Timothy 2:3-4 (WEB):

(3) For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior;​

(4) who desires all people to be saved and come to full knowledge of the truth.​

John 3:17 (WEB):

(17) For God didn’t send his Son into the world to judge the world, but that the world should be saved through him.​

You're doing theological gymnastics to invent a second chance that Revelation never describes. You're not interpreting Scripture — you're overriding it with sentiment.

Let’s go line by line:

“The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” — Revelation 20:5
“This is the first resurrection. Blessed and holy is he who has part in the first resurrection… they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with Him a thousand years.” — Revelation 20:6

There’s no mention of evangelism after the Millennium. No offer. No gospel campaign. No “harvest” among the resurrected wicked. Why? Because…

“It is appointed unto man once to die, and after that, the judgment.” — Hebrews 9:27
The second resurrection is not a revival. It’s a courtroom.

“And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God… and they were judged, every man according to his works.” — Revelation 20:12–13
“And anyone not found written in the Book of Life was cast into the lake of fire.” — Revelation 20:15

This is not a “maybe you’ll make it” moment. This is the gavel dropping.

As for your citations:
Yes, Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the whole world (1 John 2:2). But salvation must be received by faith during life — not forced on the unwilling after death.

“Whoever believes in Him shall not perish…” — John 3:16
Not whoever is resurrected later gets another try.

“Whoever does not believe stands condemned already.” — John 3:18
Not maybe later.

God wants all to be saved (1 Tim 2:4), but He doesn’t override free will to make it happen. That’s the whole point of the Gospel — respond now, while it is still called Today.

Trying to rewrite the second resurrection into a “second chance” requires ignoring Revelation 20, Hebrews 9, and the urgency of every single New Testament call to repentance.

Christ reigns for 1,000 years with His saints — not to preach to corpses, but to fulfill every promise made to the faithful. The rest rise only to face judgment. No alternate ending. No Scofield sequel.

 

[keithr]

Let’s go line by line:

“The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished.” — Revelation 20:5

I said that sentence was spurious, but you replied with:

As for the claim that verse 5 (“The rest of the dead didn’t live until the thousand years were finished”) is an interpolation — that’s a fringe theory with zero manuscript evidence from the earliest copies of Revelation. All known Greek manuscripts include it, and major textual critics (Metzger, Aland, Nestle) do not consider it spurious.

However, you are mistaken. If you were to do a quick Google search you would come up with (Spurious Text):

On Authority of Professor C. Tischendorf’s notes on the readings of the two oldest Greek manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209​

​

The following words, found in our Common Version (King James Version) are not found in the Oldest Manuscripts, and are evidently no part of the Divine Word. Let each Berean go through his Bible, pencil in hand, and mark out these words: then read the passages affected and note the improvement.​

...​

Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*​

​

* Omitted by the Sinaitic Manuscript. ... The Sinaitic Manuscript is perfect and complete and is the oldest known copy of the Scriptures, having been written (it is believed) in the year 331 A.D.​

Also (Rest Of The Dead):

The reader is reminded that these words, though given as part of Rev. 20:5 in our common version Bibles, are not found in the oldest and most reliable Greek manuscripts;--in none written prior to the fifth century, nor even in Vatican MS. 1160, of the eleventh century; neither does the Syriac MS. contain these words: but many MSS., not so old nor so exact generally, do contain the words. Whether they were originally a memorandum by some copyist, who thus commented for his own subsequent remembrance and jotted down his thought of the meaning of the text, afterward copied by others as part of the text, or whether the words really belong to the text and were accidentally omitted from the best, oldest and most reliable manuscripts, we will know, when we know all things. To us, these facts are of sufficient weight to warrant the conclusion that they are spurious.​

There’s no mention of evangelism after the Millennium. No offer. No gospel campaign. No “harvest” among the resurrected wicked.

Why is Satan, the deceiver of mankind, bound up for the 1,000 years? It's so that he can't continue deceiving people. The truth will be taught and known during the Millenium.

As for your citations:
Yes, Jesus is the atoning sacrifice for the whole world (1 John 2:2). But salvation must be received by faith during life — not forced on the unwilling after death.

Who says it will be forced on people? Faith is a gift from God - Ephesians 2:8, "for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God".

“Whoever believes in Him shall not perish…” — John 3:16
Not whoever is resurrected later gets another try.

What about all the people who have never had the opportunity to believe in Jesus because they have never heard the Gospel (including everyone who died before Jesus' earthly ministry and sacrifice)? God loves and cares about them too, and has provided an opportunity for them to gain eternal life - during the Millenium.

Christ reigns for 1,000 years with His saints — not to preach to corpses, but to fulfill every promise made to the faithful. The rest rise only to face judgment. No alternate ending. No Scofield sequel.

Reign over who? Reign how? Are Jesus and the resurrected Christians going to be tormenting people (those who make it through the Great Tribulation, when at least a third of the earth's population are killed) for a thousand years and then condemning them to death (second death), along with everyone who died without becoming a Christian who are then raised to life so that they can be killed again? Is that what we have to look forward to? Does that sound like a loving, compassionate and merciful God? Is that the best God can do?

2 Peter 3:8-9 (WEB):

(8) But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

Acts 3:19-26 (WEB):

(19) “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, so that there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord,​

(20) and that he may send Christ Jesus, who was ordained for you before,​

(21) whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets.​

(22) For Moses indeed said to the fathers, ‘The Lord God will raise up a prophet for you from among your brothers, like me. You shall listen to him in all things whatever he says to you.​

(23) It will be that every soul that will not listen to that prophet will be utterly destroyed from among the people.’​

(24) Yes, and all the prophets from Samuel and those who followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.​

(25) You are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘In your offspring will all the families of the earth be blessed.’​

(26) God, having raised up his servant Jesus, sent him to you first to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your wickedness.”​

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

I said that sentence was spurious, but you replied with:


However, you are mistaken. If you were to do a quick Google search you would come up with (Spurious Text):

On Authority of Professor C. Tischendorf’s notes on the readings of the two oldest Greek manuscripts: The Sinaitic and the Vatican #1209​

​

The following words, found in our Common Version (King James Version) are not found in the Oldest Manuscripts, and are evidently no part of the Divine Word. Let each Berean go through his Bible, pencil in hand, and mark out these words: then read the passages affected and note the improvement.​

...​

Rev. 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished*​

​

* Omitted by the Sinaitic Manuscript. ... The Sinaitic Manuscript is perfect and complete and is the oldest known copy of the Scriptures, having been written (it is believed) in the year 331 A.D.​

Also (Rest Of The Dead):

The reader is reminded that these words, though given as part of Rev. 20:5 in our common version Bibles, are not found in the oldest and most reliable Greek manuscripts;--in none written prior to the fifth century, nor even in Vatican MS. 1160, of the eleventh century; neither does the Syriac MS. contain these words: but many MSS., not so old nor so exact generally, do contain the words. Whether they were originally a memorandum by some copyist, who thus commented for his own subsequent remembrance and jotted down his thought of the meaning of the text, afterward copied by others as part of the text, or whether the words really belong to the text and were accidentally omitted from the best, oldest and most reliable manuscripts, we will know, when we know all things. To us, these facts are of sufficient weight to warrant the conclusion that they are spurious.​

Why is Satan, the deceiver of mankind, bound up for the 1,000 years? It's so that he can't continue deceiving people. The truth will be taught and known during the Millenium.


Who says it will be forced on people? Faith is a gift from God - Ephesians 2:8, "for by grace you have been saved through faith, and that not of yourselves; it is the gift of God".


What about all the people who have never had the opportunity to believe in Jesus because they have never heard the Gospel (including everyone who died before Jesus' earthly ministry and sacrifice)? God loves and cares about them too, and has provided an opportunity for them to gain eternal life - during the Millenium.


Reign over who? Reign how? Are Jesus and the resurrected Christians going to be tormenting people (those who make it through the Great Tribulation, when at least a third of the earth's population are killed) for a thousand years and then condemning them to death (second death), along with everyone who died without becoming a Christian who are then raised to life so that they can be killed again? Is that what we have to look forward to? Does that sound like a loving, compassionate and merciful God? Is that the best God can do?

2 Peter 3:8-9 (WEB):

(8) But don’t forget this one thing, beloved, that one day is with the Lord as a thousand years, and a thousand years as one day.​

(9) The Lord is not slow concerning his promise, as some count slowness; but is patient with us, not wishing that any should perish, but that all should come to repentance.​

Acts 3:19-26 (WEB):

(19) “Repent therefore, and turn again, that your sins may be blotted out, so that there may come times of refreshing from the presence of the Lord,​

(20) and that he may send Christ Jesus, who was ordained for you before,​

(21) whom heaven must receive until the times of restoration of all things, which God spoke long ago by the mouth of his holy prophets.​

(22) For Moses indeed said to the fathers, ‘The Lord God will raise up a prophet for you from among your brothers, like me. You shall listen to him in all things whatever he says to you.​

(23) It will be that every soul that will not listen to that prophet will be utterly destroyed from among the people.’​

(24) Yes, and all the prophets from Samuel and those who followed after, as many as have spoken, they also told of these days.​

(25) You are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying to Abraham, ‘In your offspring will all the families of the earth be blessed.’​

(26) God, having raised up his servant Jesus, sent him to you first to bless you, in turning away every one of you from your wickedness.”​

Let’s go line by line.
1. “The rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished” — Rev. 20:5

You claim this is spurious, but that’s simply not supported by serious textual evidence. Yes, Codex Sinaiticus omits the phrase, but all other major manuscripts include it, including Alexandrinus and Ephraemi. It’s also cited by early Church fathers. Modern critical Greek texts (Nestle-Aland, UBS) all retain it.

If you're going to start crossing out verses based on one manuscript, then you’re not interpreting Scripture — you're editing it.

2. Satan is bound so truth can be taught?
That’s not in the text. Revelation says Satan is bound “so that he might not deceive the nations any longer” — not so the gospel can be preached to the dead. The saints reign, but there is no mention of evangelism in this chapter. That’s inserting theology into a silence.

3. “Faith is a gift, so God can give it later”
Faith is a gift, yes — but it’s given in this life. Hebrews 9:27 is crystal clear:
“It is appointed unto man once to die, and after that, judgment.”
Not preaching. Not conversion. Judgment.

There is no second chance after death.

4. “What about those who never heard?”
Romans 1 and 2 already address this. God judges righteously based on the light each person has. But the idea that resurrected unbelievers get a second opportunity completely contradicts Revelation 20, which says:

“They were judged… and anyone not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.” (v.15)

That’s not evangelism — that’s final judgment.

5. “Christ reigns — but over who?”
Simple: over the nations that survive the Tribulation (see Zech. 14), and with the resurrected saints who reign with Him (Rev. 20:4). After the Millennium, Satan is released for one last deception, and then the final judgment comes. Nowhere does it say Jesus is offering salvation after death. That’s reading fantasy into prophecy.

6. “Would a loving God do this?”
Yes — a loving God warns now.

“Now is the day of salvation.” — 2 Cor. 6:2

Jesus preached repent now, not “you’ll get another chance later.”
Rejecting that urgency isn’t compassion — it’s deception.

Bottom line: You’re trying to write a second gospel — one where the lake of fire is optional, where final judgment isn’t final, and where Revelation 20 doesn’t mean what it says.

That’s not “deep insight.” That’s spiritual delusion.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Let me just put this in perspective for you — how completely upside-down this Scofield nonsense is. It would be like watching all six Star Wars films — the entire saga — and walking away thinking, “You know what? The Sith Lords were actually the chosen ones. Palpatine was just misunderstood. Darth Vader was temporarily set aside. And Yoda? That deceiver was clearly a type of the Church replacing the true Empire.”

And then — with a straight face — they say, “Luke Skywalker wasn’t even necessary. He was just a parenthesis. He didn’t fulfill anything. The real prophecy is about Anakin being restored to rule a literal Death Star for a thousand years while Rebel scum are judged.” Like… what movie did you even watch? Did you fall asleep in Leviticus and wake up convinced the Millennium is just The Empire Strikes Back with incense?

These people will tell you — with conviction — that the cross, the resurrection, Pentecost, and the entire Church age is just a filler arc until we can get back to worshiping the galactic temple. It’s not theology — it’s fan fiction with a Rapture chart. And somehow, when you quote Jesus (“Your house is left to you desolate” — Matt. 23:38), or Paul (“Not all who are descended from Israel are Israel” — Rom. 9:6), or even Peter (“You are a chosen people” — 1 Peter 2:9, speaking to the Church), they don’t see truth — they see "antisemitic blasphemy".

No doubt… from the veil.
(See: 2 Corinthians 3:14–16)

Because if Christ Himself walked into one of their prophecy conferences and repeated His own words, they’d rebuke Him for not aligning with their chart. You can directly quote Jesus, Paul and Peter verbatim and they'll call you a "Racist Nazi". It's completely insane.

 

[Fred J]

Some of you who reply back to me also parroting your versions, nothing new.

A) Jesus Christ alone have been the firstfruit or firstborn of resurrection or from the dead and ascended to Heaven.

Those beginning with the remnant of Jews, Apostles, Jews, then Gentiles saved by grace in Christ.

Until His first return, they all have not risen from the dead nor ones alive and remain, yet not 'taken up' to Heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will GOD bring with Him.
15. For this we may say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The is Christ's first return in the clouds, bringing home the dead in Christ since the beginning the remnant of Israel save by grace and likewise the Gentiles after them.

And together those who remain and alive during the reign and persecution of anti-Christ and the false prophet.

Persecution against church saints worldwide during the first part of the Great Tribulation for three and a half years.

After taken up, they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

Revelation 20:
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


B) Revelation 19:
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.
14. And the armies which were in Heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19. And I saw the beast(anti-Christ), and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.
20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped the image, These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21. And the remnant(verse 17&18) were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 16:
6. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16. And he(beast) gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

This takes place just after the 2nd part of the Great Tribulation of GOD wrath poured onto the people of this earth with the 1st & 2nd beast.

This is also the second return of Christ with the armies which were in Heaven that followed Him.

It takes place on earth, where the beast, and kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to make war against Christ and His armies.

Remember, before making war anti-Christ placed his throne and sat on it, upon the rebuilt third temple in Israel. (Matthew 24:15 / 2 Thessalonians 2:3&4)

Towards the end, the beast and the false prophet were cast into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

When the thousand years expired, satan is loosed out of his prison and he deceived nations in four quarters of the earth. (Revelation 20:7&8)

And they together surrounded the dwelling of the Jew saints(the very elect), the beloved city Jerusalem.

This time Christ and the armies of Heaven did not come down, but fire came down from GOD out of Heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:9)

In the end, the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, since thousand years. (Revelation 20:10)

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Some of you who reply back to me also parroting your versions, nothing new.

A) Jesus Christ alone have been the firstfruit or firstborn of resurrection or from the dead and ascended to Heaven.

Those beginning with the remnant of Jews, Apostles, Jews, then Gentiles saved by grace in Christ.

Until His first return, they all have not risen from the dead nor ones alive and remain, yet not 'taken up' to Heaven.

1 Thessalonians 4:
14. For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will GOD bring with Him.
15. For this we may say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.
16. For the Lord Himself shall descend from Heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of GOD: and the dead in Christ shall rise first.
17. Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

The is Christ's first return in the clouds, bringing home the dead in Christ since the beginning the remnant of Israel save by grace and likewise the Gentiles after them.

And together those who remain and alive during the reign and persecution of anti-Christ and the false prophet.

Persecution against church saints worldwide during the first part of the Great Tribulation for three and a half years.

After taken up, they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years. (Revelation 20:4)

Revelation 20:
5. But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.


B) Revelation 19:
11. And I saw heaven opened, and behold a white horse; and He that sat upon him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He doth judge and make war.
14. And the armies which were in Heaven followed Him upon white horses, clothed in fine linen, white and clean.
19. And I saw the beast(anti-Christ), and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him that sat on the horse, and against His army.
20. And the beast was taken, and with him the false prophet that wrought miracles before him, with which he deceived them that had received the mark of the beast, and them that worshipped the image, These both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.
21. And the remnant(verse 17&18) were slain with the sword of Him that sat upon the horse, which sword proceeded out of His mouth: and all the fowls were filled with their flesh.

Revelation 16:
6. For they have shed the blood of saints and prophets, and thou hast given them blood to drink; for they are worthy.
16. And he(beast) gathered them together into a place called in the Hebrew tongue Armageddon.

This takes place just after the 2nd part of the Great Tribulation of GOD wrath poured onto the people of this earth with the 1st & 2nd beast.

This is also the second return of Christ with the armies which were in Heaven that followed Him.

It takes place on earth, where the beast, and kings of the earth, and their armies gathered together to make war against Christ and His armies.

Remember, before making war anti-Christ placed his throne and sat on it, upon the rebuilt third temple in Israel. (Matthew 24:15 / 2 Thessalonians 2:3&4)

Towards the end, the beast and the false prophet were cast into a lake of fire burning with brimstone.

When the thousand years expired, satan is loosed out of his prison and he deceived nations in four quarters of the earth. (Revelation 20:7&8)

And they together surrounded the dwelling of the Jew saints(the very elect), the beloved city Jerusalem.

This time Christ and the armies of Heaven did not come down, but fire came down from GOD out of Heaven, and devoured them. (Revelation 20:9)

In the end, the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, since thousand years. (Revelation 20:10)

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord

You’re not describing biblical Christianity — you’re describing a repackaged form of dispensationalism that splits the Body of Christ in two, glorifies ethnic Israel apart from Jesus, and teaches two returns of Christ when scripture only speaks of one. You’ve turned the New Covenant into a delayed side quest and made God’s promises dependent on race, temples, and timelines rather than faith in Christ. That’s not the Gospel — it’s a Zionist fantasy with a few Bible verses taped to it. You may be sincere, but your theology isn’t just wrong — it’s dangerous. You’re preaching another gospel, and your eternal soul may be in jeopardy. Repent and believe the truth: Christ is the fulfillment of all things, and there is no salvation outside of Him — not for Gentiles, not for Jews, not for anyone.

 

[Fred J]

You’re not describing biblical Christianity — you’re describing a repackaged form of dispensationalism that splits the Body of Christ in two, glorifies ethnic Israel apart from Jesus, and teaches two returns of Christ when scripture only speaks of one. You’ve turned the New Covenant into a delayed side quest and made God’s promises dependent on race, temples, and timelines rather than faith in Christ. That’s not the Gospel — it’s a Zionist fantasy with a few Bible verses taped to it. You may be sincere, but your theology isn’t just wrong — it’s dangerous. You’re preaching another gospel, and your eternal soul may be in jeopardy. Repent and believe the truth: Christ is the fulfillment of all things, and there is no salvation outside of Him — not for Gentiles, not for Jews, not for anyone.

Stop likewise 'parroting' your denominational version and quotes taken here and there to fit your false Gospel agenda.

The scripture quotes and explanation i've been given to testified is sound doctrine from above.

The first coming is for His bride, the dead in Christ since the beginning, who shall rise from their sleep or the grave.

Then the living and remain, where both will be changed from the terrestrial body into the celestial body.

Together they will all be taken up into the clouds to meet the Lord Jesus Christ and brought to Heaven.

They consist of the remnant of Israel saved by grace since the beginning, until to the full number of Gentiles have come in by the Gospel. (Romans 11:5&25end)

Now on the contrary, Biblically there are those unsaved Israelites, where blindness in part is happened to them and in unbelief, and enemies of the Gospel. (Romans 11:25mid,28,30&32)

All these unsaved, unbelief and enemies of the Gospel Israelites, will only be saved, when and after the fullness of Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25end&26)

Romans 11:
27. For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (unsaved Israel)
28. As concerning the Gospel, they(unsaved Israel) are enemies for your(Gentiles) sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.
29. For the gifts and calling of GOD are without repentance.

For the gifts and calling of GOD to the unsaved Israelites are without repentance, not by the Gospel, but as touching the election, in the end.

The unsaved Israelites are the very elect, even where the anti-Christ if it were possible, shall try to deceive.

But in the beginning the beast will deceive and make a peace treaty with the unsaved Israelites.

He will permit them to rebuild their third Temple, and apparently sacrifices according to the Law of Moses will be offered day and night since.

During this time the bride in Christ, the true church, will be persecuted worldwide for their faith, in the first part of the Great Tribulation.

True and faithful brides shall overcome this trial/test, whether persecuted dead or living and remain until the Lord's return.

At rightfully His first coming, the dead in Christ shall rise, then the living and remain, will all be changed, and together will be taken up to the clouds.

They'll be taken into Heaven and there they lived and reigned with Christ for a thousand years.

Henceforth begins the second part of the Great Tribulation, where GOD pours out HIS wrath on the world, ones with anti-Christ and the false prophet against GOD.

At one point in rage, anti-Christ will break that peace treaty he made with unsaved Israelites, and he will stop completely all their religious works done in the Temple.

From then on inside the Temple he will place his throne above all and claim himself as god over all that is called Gods. (2 Thessalonians 2:3&4)

Then Christ and the armies in Heaven which followed Him, will descend to earth as His second coming to Israel, due to the abomination of desolation. (Matthew 24:15)

In respond the beast, and the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Christ and His army in the plain of Armageddon. (Revelation 19:19/ Revelation 16:16)

As a result, the beast and the false prophet were taken, and both were cast alive into a lake of fire burning with brimstone. (Revelation 19:20)

Therefore Christ's first coming and second coming have been testified, even with supporting New Testament scriptures explained.

Opposition post your own versions, and let the readers decide for themselves, for am done replying you.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ our Lord.

 

[The Gospel of Christ]

Stop likewise 'parroting' your denominational version and quotes taken here and there to fit your false Gospel agenda.

The scripture quotes and explanation i've been given to testified is sound doctrine from above.

The first coming is for His bride, the dead in Christ since the beginning, who shall rise from their sleep or the grave.

Then the living and remain, where both will be changed from the terrestrial body into the celestial body.

Together they will all be taken up into the clouds to meet the Lord Jesus Christ and brought to Heaven.

They consist of the remnant of Israel saved by grace since the beginning, until to the full number of Gentiles have come in by the Gospel. (Romans 11:5&25end)

Now on the contrary, Biblically there are those unsaved Israelites, where blindness in part is happened to them and in unbelief, and enemies of the Gospel. (Romans 11:25mid,28,30&32)

All these unsaved, unbelief and enemies of the Gospel Israelites, will only be saved, when and after the fullness of Gentiles be come in. (Romans 11:25end&26)

Romans 11:
27. For this is My covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins. (unsaved Israel)
28. As concerning the Gospel, they(unsaved Israel) are enemies for your(Gentiles) sakes: but as touching the election, they are beloved for the fathers' sake.
29. For the gifts and calling of GOD are without repentance.

You’ve woven together a patchwork of half-verses and human interpretations into an elaborate end-times fantasy that flatly contradicts the clear testimony of Jesus, Paul, and the apostles.

Let’s get something straight:
There is only ONE return of Christ — not two.
Hebrews 9:28 says it plainly:

“So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for Him shall He appear the second time…”
Second time. Not third. Not secretly first and publicly second.

There is no secret rapture, no pre-trib shuttle launch to heaven. That idea is a 19th-century invention, not biblical doctrine.

You’ve turned “the blessed hope” (Titus 2:13) into an escapist fairytale that contradicts Jesus’ own words:

“Immediately after the tribulation of those days… they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven…” (Matthew 24:29–30)

AFTER. THE. TRIBULATION.

As for Romans 11 — Paul never said all ethnic Israelites would be saved regardless of faith. That’s a dangerous misreading. The context of Romans 9–11 is crystal clear:

“They are not all Israel who are of Israel…
That is, they which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God:
But the children of the promise are counted for the seed.”
(Romans 9:6–8)

What does that mean?

It means just being born Jewish doesn’t make you one of God’s people.
Being in God’s family has nothing to do with your DNA.
God doesn’t care about your last name — He cares about your faith.

If you don’t believe in Jesus, you’re not in.
Not “chosen.”
Not “elect.”
Not part of God’s promise.
Only people who believe in Jesus — whether they’re Jews or Gentiles — are counted as true Israel.

No faith = no covenant.

That’s not mean — that’s the Bible.

And let’s take this insanity a step further and stop living in delusion…

We’re not just talking about unbelieving Jews from the Bible — we’re talking millions of white European Khazars today who aren’t even ethnically or genetically connected to Abraham at all. Their ancestors converted to Judaism around 740 AD in a kingdom called Khazaria. That’s a fact you can feel free to investigate.

They’re not “children of the promise.”
They’re not “Israel.”
They’re not even Semitic — they’re descendants of Turkic pagan tribes who picked Judaism like a team jersey back in 740 AD. They moved into Russia & Eastern Europe and now we they strut around claiming to be “God’s chosen” while rejecting the very God who sent the Messiah.

Let’s be real — anyone who thinks Jerry Seinfeld or Rob “Meathead” Reiner are genetically connected to Abraham or the Biblical tribe of Judah is living in a fantasy world on par with the current “men can get pregnant” insanity. This is spiritual delusion at its highest level — and it’s infected the Church.

You don’t get into the covenant through bloodlines or conversions.
You get in through Jesus Christ alone.
No faith = no covenant.
No Christ = no salvation.

And somehow, this insane cosplay is openly accepted — not just by the world, but by miseld Christian evengelicals who are supposed to know the Word of God.

It’s like living in a spiritual asylum where faithless descendants of medieval converts are considered “elect,” while born-again believers in Christ are treated like second-class citizens in God’s own house.

Newsflash:
Jesus didn’t die so temple floors could run red with animal blood again.
He didn’t shed His blood to revive Old Testament rituals or reestablish genealogical supremacy.
He came to fulfill the promise, abolish the dividing wall, and create one new man in Christ — Jew and Gentile alike (Ephesians 2:14–16).

If you’re still waiting for a third temple, a Levitical priesthood, or some DNA-based redemption arc —
you’ve missed the cross.

This isn’t just bad theology —
it’s blasphemy.

It spits on the finished work of Christ.
It mocks the blood that was already poured out.
And it replaces the Gospel with a racial fairytale.

If you're still clinging to that lie —
repent before the curtain drops…
and you realize too late that you’re not inside the Kingdom.
You’re outside, pounding on the door —
thinking your bloodline was your ticket in.

You’re using Romans 11 to create a backdoor to salvation that bypasses Christ. That’s not sound doctrine — that’s another gospel. And Paul already warned us what happens to anyone who preaches that:

“If any man preach any other gospel… let him be accursed.” (Galatians 1:8–9)

Jesus doesn’t need a rebuilt temple.
He is the Temple (John 2:19).
He doesn’t need sacrifices reinstated.
He is the Lamb once and for all (Hebrews 10:10–14).
He doesn’t need to return twice.
When He comes, every eye will see Him. (Revelation 1:7)

Stop waiting for a third temple.
Stop preaching a two-tier salvation system.
Stop calling the enemies of the Gospel “elect” when Paul explicitly says they were broken off for unbelief. (Romans 11:20)

The covenant doesn’t return to the Jews after the Church.
The Church is the continuation and fulfillment of Israel — grafted in to one olive tree. There is one people of God, one covenant, one Messiah — and His name is Jesus.

He doesn’t come back to endorse a Middle Eastern bloodline.
He comes back to judge the world and gather His bride — the remnant who believe, Jew or Gentile alike.

If you’re trusting in genealogies, third temples, or Scofield timelines, you’re not walking by faith — you’re chasing shadows.

Repent.
The Gospel is not nationalistic.
The Gospel is Christ — and if you’re not in Him, you’re not in the covenant.