IS THE RAPTURE BEFORE THE TRIBULATION?

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Scott Downey

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Here is more proof that God's people are on the earth when Satan is revealed to the world, and God's people are some from every nation, as Revelation 7 so says about the Christians who go through the great tribulation.

Revelation 12
7 And war broke out in heaven: Michael and his angels fought with the dragon; and the dragon and his angels fought, 8 but they [a]did not prevail, nor was a place found for [b]them in heaven any longer. 9 So the great dragon was cast out, that serpent of old, called the Devil and Satan, who deceives the whole world; he was cast to the earth, and his angels were cast out with him.

10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down.

11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death.

12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”
 

Scott Downey

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At least God limits the time Satan has...else no (Christians)flesh would be saved
Again, implying that, indeed some survive the great tribulation.

Matthew 24:22
And unless those days were shortened, no flesh would be saved; but for the elect’s sake those days will be shortened.
 
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David in NJ

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If you will not listen to reason, then yes , apply your formula.

Just keep in mind that In any investigation, going with impossibilities, that could have been noted and shelved , brings you into a rabbit trail 100%of the time.
Postrib rapture is a excellent example of ignoring the impossible.

Once the impossibilities are on the table, the debate is over
God's Foundation & Formula

Every word of God is pure;
He is a shield to those who put their trust in Him.
Do not add to His words,
Lest He rebuke you, and you be found a liar. -
Proverbs 30:5-6
 

Scott Downey

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Here is more proof of a post trib rapture, although more indirect.
Written to a gentile church about the coming of the Lord.
"Then we who are alive and remain", in other words, then we who remain alive, as in survived until the coming of the Lord.

Paul is using some interesting phrasing here, and it agrees with all the other things he taught about the return of Christ.

1 Thess 4

The Comfort of Christ’s Coming​

13 But I do not want you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning those who have fallen [b]asleep, lest you sorrow as others who have no hope. 14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so God will bring with Him those who [c]sleep in Jesus.

15 For this we say to you by the word of the Lord, that we who are alive and remain until the coming of the Lord will by no means precede those who are [d]asleep. 16 For the Lord Himself will descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of an archangel, and with the trumpet of God. And the dead in Christ will rise first. 17 Then we who are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And thus we shall always be with the Lord. 18 Therefore comfort one another with these words.
 
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keithr

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I have heard every angle there is and it is always man-made reasons that are not in scripture.

Post the 3 reasons and you will SEE when compared to scripture.
All the reasons and arguments in the video are based on Scripture. I urge you to watch it, but like leading a horse to water, I can't make you drink it!

One verse that is mentioned in the video is Jesus saying, Luke 21:36 (WEB):

(36) Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”​

[FYI, about the author of the video:

Jimmy Evans is a long-time pastor, Bible teacher, and best-selling author. He is the Founder and President of XO Marriage, a ministry devoted to helping couples thrive in strong and fulfilling marriages.​
For 30 years, Jimmy ministered as Senior Pastor of Trinity Fellowship Church in Amarillo, Texas, where he now serves as Apostolic Elder. During his time as senior pastor the church grew from 900 to over 10,000 members. Jimmy loves mentoring pastors and helping local churches grow to reach their potential. He is a popular speaker at churches and leadership conferences across America.​
Jimmy has written more than 18 books including Marriage on the Rock, The Four Laws of Love, 21 Day Inner Healing Journey, and Tipping Point.]​
 

Scott Downey

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All the reasons and arguments in the video are based on Scripture. I urge you to watch it, but like leading a horse to water, I can't make you drink it!

One verse that is mentioned in the video is Jesus saying, Luke 21:36 (WEB):

(36) Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”​

[FYI, about the author of the video:

Jimmy Evans is a long-time pastor, Bible teacher, and best-selling author. He is the Founder and President of XO Marriage, a ministry devoted to helping couples thrive in strong and fulfilling marriages.​
For 30 years, Jimmy ministered as Senior Pastor of Trinity Fellowship Church in Amarillo, Texas, where he now serves as Apostolic Elder. During his time as senior pastor the church grew from 900 to over 10,000 members. Jimmy loves mentoring pastors and helping local churches grow to reach their potential. He is a popular speaker at churches and leadership conferences across America.​
Jimmy has written more than 18 books including Marriage on the Rock, The Four Laws of Love, 21 Day Inner Healing Journey, and Tipping Point.]​
"Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

What your posting there is personal and individual, not corporate, as in for everybody though.

One way to escape is by dying.
And God uses that as a means of escape for the righteous
Dying for them is gain, as Paul said, for me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Isaiah 57

New King James Version

1 The righteous perishes,
And no man takes it to heart;
Merciful men are taken away,
While no one considers
That the righteous is taken away from [a]evil.
2 He shall enter into peace;
They shall rest in their beds,
Each one walking in his uprightness.
 
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David in NJ

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All the reasons and arguments in the video are based on Scripture. I urge you to watch it, but like leading a horse to water, I can't make you drink it!

One verse that is mentioned in the video is Jesus saying, Luke 21:36 (WEB):

(36) Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”​

[FYI, about the author of the video:

Jimmy Evans is a long-time pastor, Bible teacher, and best-selling author. He is the Founder and President of XO Marriage, a ministry devoted to helping couples thrive in strong and fulfilling marriages.​
For 30 years, Jimmy ministered as Senior Pastor of Trinity Fellowship Church in Amarillo, Texas, where he now serves as Apostolic Elder. During his time as senior pastor the church grew from 900 to over 10,000 members. Jimmy loves mentoring pastors and helping local churches grow to reach their potential. He is a popular speaker at churches and leadership conferences across America.​
Jimmy has written more than 18 books including Marriage on the Rock, The Four Laws of Love, 21 Day Inner Healing Journey, and Tipping Point.]​
Thank You @keithr,
The KEY is to believe all that God has spoken.

Did not the Jews base their decision to crucify the Lord on scripture......

Satan uses scripture to deceive = Matthew 4:5

Then the devil took Him to the holy city and set Him on the pinnacle of the temple.
“If You are the Son of God,” he said, “throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘He will command His angels concerning You,
and they will lift You up in their hands,
so that You will not strike Your foot
against a stone.’”
 

David in NJ

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Well said brethren, and don't take my word for it, do the study, and discuss part by part.

Shalom in the name of Jesus Christ.
i read your post two times and will read it a 3rd time today.

There are things the Lord said of His Second Coming that are in the Gospel and i will post for you later.
 

David in NJ

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"Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

What your posting there is personal and individual, not corporate, as in for everybody though.

One way to escape is by dying.
And God uses that as a means of escape for the righteous
Dying for them is gain, as Paul said, for me to live is Christ, and to die is gain.

Isaiah 57

New King James Version

1 The righteous perishes,
And no man takes it to heart;
Merciful men are taken away,
While no one considers
That the righteous is taken away from [a]evil.
2 He shall enter into peace;
They shall rest in their beds,
Each one walking in his uprightness.
What shall I render to the Lord
For all His benefits toward me?
I will take up the cup of salvation,
And call upon the name of the Lord.
I will pay my vows to the Lord
Now in the presence of all His people.

Precious in the sight of the Lord
Is the death of His saints. - Psalm 116:12-15
 

keithr

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"Therefore be watchful all the time, praying that you may be counted worthy to escape all these things that will happen, and to stand before the Son of Man.”

What your posting there is personal and individual, not corporate, as in for everybody though.
Jesus was talking about the coming Great Tribulation - Luke 21:25-26 (WEB):

(25) There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars; and on the earth anxiety of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the waves;​
(26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.​

While Jesus at that time did not know the exact date as to when that would happen, I'm sure he knew that it was a long way off (around 2,000+ years), so I don't see this as a personal instruction to the disciples he was speaking to (who would not live anywhere near long enough to be able to observe the foretold signs).

One way to escape is by dying.
Jesus told them to pray that they would be "counted worthy to escape", not to simple pray that they would die before the Great Tribulation starts.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 (WEB):
(11) To this end we also pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire of goodness and work of faith, with power;​

Jesus said, Luke 20:35 (WEB):
(35) But those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.​


Zephaniah 2:1-3 (WEB):
(1) Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together, you nation that has no shame,​
(2) before the appointed time when the day passes as the chaff, before the fierce anger of Yahweh comes on you, before the day of Yahweh’s anger comes on you.​
(3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.
 

Scott Downey

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Jesus was talking about the coming Great Tribulation - Luke 21:25-26 (WEB):

(25) There will be signs in the sun, moon, and stars; and on the earth anxiety of nations, in perplexity for the roaring of the sea and the waves;​
(26) men fainting for fear, and for expectation of the things which are coming on the world: for the powers of the heavens will be shaken.​

While Jesus at that time did not know the exact date as to when that would happen, I'm sure he knew that it was a long way off (around 2,000+ years), so I don't see this as a personal instruction to the disciples he was speaking to (who would not live anywhere near long enough to be able to observe the foretold signs).


Jesus told them to pray that they would be "counted worthy to escape", not to simple pray that they would die before the Great Tribulation starts.

2 Thessalonians 1:11 (WEB):
(11) To this end we also pray always for you, that our God may count you worthy of your calling, and fulfill every desire of goodness and work of faith, with power;​

Jesus said, Luke 20:35 (WEB):
(35) But those who are considered worthy to attain to that age and the resurrection from the dead, neither marry, nor are given in marriage.​


Zephaniah 2:1-3 (WEB):
(1) Gather yourselves together, yes, gather together, you nation that has no shame,​
(2) before the appointed time when the day passes as the chaff, before the fierce anger of Yahweh comes on you, before the day of Yahweh’s anger comes on you.​
(3) Seek Yahweh, all you humble of the land, who have kept his ordinances. Seek righteousness. Seek humility. It may be that you will be hidden in the day of Yahweh’s anger.
Dying is just one way of escape from tribulation.

Instructions to the disciples would be the same for us today, as the great tribulation is still future.
So yes, Jesus taught His disciples these things, and yes, they still inform us today about the state of this world.
Just as good for us it is today as for them back then.
 

Scott Downey

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Shalom in the name of Adonai Yeshua

Am testifying besides His coming, but about His return or coming back, for there are two returns.

But there are those who testify of only His one return, and i disagree.


Second coming, yes, but it's His first return to bring home His bride, also those who were persecuted dead or alive and remain during the reign of anti-Christ.

And, His second return is to wage war against anti-Christ, the kings of the earth, and their armies.

Who've likewise gathered in the plain called Armageddon to war Christ and His army who followed Him from Heaven.

This will take place after, first anti-Christ places his throne inside the second Temple and claim himself god over all that is called Gods.

For in the eyes of the Almighty, it's an abomination desolate, as prophetically prophesied by Daniel shall happen.

And second, as the anti-Christ and the world which loved darkness, will undergo the wrath of GOD worldwide.

My prior replies have clearly testify such, also i believe you're able have a read, thank you.

The Great Tribulation consist of two parts.

The first part of the Tribulation is the church will undergo persecution worldwide.

This happens during the reign of anti-Christ and the false prophet who work false signs and wonders.

Who've likewise deceived the world and too on ones GOD have sent HIS strong delusion.

As this first part tribulation comes to pass, the church saints dead or alive shall be taken up to be with the Lord.

Then starts the second part of the Tribulation, where GOD from Heaven pours out His wrath on the beast and the world.

Shalom in the name of Adonai Yeshua
Your teaching is at least 3 comings, when there are just 2

First time He came to deal with sin
Second time He will come for our salvation from this present evil age

Galatians 1
Paul, an apostle (not from men nor through man, but through Jesus Christ and God the Father who raised Him from the dead), 2 and all the brethren who are with me,

To the churches of Galatia:

3 Grace to you and peace from God the Father and our Lord Jesus Christ, 4 who gave Himself for our sins, that He might deliver us from this present evil age, according to the will of our God and Father, 5 to whom be glory forever and ever. Amen.


Heb 9
23 Therefore it was necessary that the copies of the things in the heavens should be [j]purified with these, but the heavenly things themselves with better sacrifices than these. 24 For Christ has not entered the holy places made with hands, which are [k]copies of the true, but into heaven itself, now to appear in the presence of God for us; 25 not that He should offer Himself often, as the high priest enters the Most Holy Place every year with blood of another— 26 He then would have had to suffer often since the foundation of the world; but now, once at the end of the ages, He has appeared to put away sin by the sacrifice of Himself. 27 And as it is appointed for men to die once, but after this the judgment, 28 so Christ was offered once to bear the sins of many. To those who eagerly wait for Him He will appear a second time, apart from sin, for salvation.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~

There is no third coming taught in scripture!
Jesus delivers us from the wrath of God to come
Jesus does not come to deliver us from persecutions and tribulations that come against us from this world

This here also proves there is No PRE TRIB rapture

God’s Final Judgment and Glory​

3 We are bound to thank God always for you, brethren, as it is fitting, because your faith grows exceedingly, and the love of every one of you all abounds toward each other, 4 so that we ourselves boast of you among the churches of God for your patience and faith in all your persecutions and [a]tribulations that you endure, 5 which is manifest[b] evidence of the righteous judgment of God, that you may be counted worthy of the kingdom of God, for which you also suffer;

6 since it is a righteous thing with God to repay with [c]tribulation those who trouble you, 7 and to give you who are troubled rest with us when the Lord Jesus is revealed from heaven with His mighty angels, 8 in flaming fire taking vengeance on those who do not know God, and on those who do not obey the gospel of our Lord Jesus Christ.

9 These shall be punished with everlasting destruction from the presence of the Lord and from the glory of His power, 10 when He comes, in that Day, to be glorified in His saints and to be admired among all those who [d]believe, because our testimony among you was believed.

~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
We get rest when Christ returns in flaming fire, the second coming occurs after the great tribulation of the world directed against the people of God and this world influenced by Satan's great wrath. Satan being a murderer cares nothing about the life of any person.

Rev 12
10 Then I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, “Now salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of His Christ have come, for the accuser of our brethren, who accused them before our God day and night, has been cast down. 11 And they overcame him by the blood of the Lamb and by the word of their testimony, and they did not love their lives to the death. 12 Therefore rejoice, O heavens, and you who dwell in them! Woe to the inhabitants of the earth and the sea! For the devil has come down to you, having great wrath, because he knows that he has a short time.”


While we as Christians know suffering, at that time the unsaved people will also know suffering.
God finishes or mops up the leftovers at the supper of the great God.

Christ's return described, we have this and other scriptures that tell us about this coming Day of the Lord.

Christ on a White Horse​

11 Now I saw heaven opened, and behold, a white horse. And He who sat on him was called Faithful and True, and in righteousness He judges and makes war. 12 His eyes were like a flame of fire, and on His head were many crowns. He [e]had a name written that no one knew except Himself. 13 He was clothed with a robe dipped in blood, and His name is called The Word of God. 14 And the armies in heaven, clothed in [f]fine linen, white and clean, followed Him on white horses. 15 Now out of His mouth goes a [g]sharp sword, that with it He should strike the nations. And He Himself will rule them with a rod of iron. He Himself treads the winepress of the fierceness and wrath of Almighty God. 16 And He has on His robe and on His thigh a name written:

KING OF KINGS AND
LORD OF LORDS.

The Beast and His Armies Defeated​

17 Then I saw an angel standing in the sun; and he cried with a loud voice, saying to all the birds that fly in the midst of heaven, “Come and gather together for the [h]supper of the great God, 18 that you may eat the flesh of kings, the flesh of captains, the flesh of mighty men, the flesh of horses and of those who sit on them, and the flesh of all people, [i]free and slave, both small and great.”

19 And I saw the beast, the kings of the earth, and their armies, gathered together to make war against Him who sat on the horse and against His army. 20 Then the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who worked signs in his presence, by which he deceived those who received the mark of the beast and those who worshiped his image. These two were cast alive into the lake of fire burning with brimstone. 21 And the rest were killed with the sword which proceeded from the mouth of Him who sat on the horse. And all the birds were filled with their flesh.
 
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amigo de christo

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The end times at the last of the last days, unsaved men will be under a super strong delusion, sent on them by God because they refused to love the truth and be saved. So, repentance for the unbeliever in this time is not being granted by the Lord, seems to me.

Which tells us those who went through this great tribulation and are saved, were saved likely before the strong delusion had been sent by God on unbelievers. We were all unbelievers at one time until God revealed His Son in us, the hope of glory. The people of the end, will not love the truth, they are sealed into destruction, there is no repentance. Meaning if they are under this strong delusion at the end, they are not going to be repenting, God's purpose is for them to be condemned. That requires the saved ones, who went through the great tribulation, must have been saved before that strong delusion was sent on unbelievers by God, and that can only then be that they are the church.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie,
12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.


Example of this, think about this

2 Thessalonians 2
New King James Version
The Great Apostasy

1 Now, brethren, concerning the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ and our gathering together to Him, we ask you, 2 not to be soon shaken in mind or troubled, either by spirit or by word or by letter, as if from us, as though the day of [a]Christ had come. 3 Let no one deceive you by any means; for that Day will not come unless the falling away comes first, and the man of sin is revealed, the son of perdition, 4 who opposes and exalts himself above all that is called God or that is worshiped, so that he sits [c]as God in the temple of God, showing himself that he is God.

5 Do you not remember that when I was still with you I told you these things? 6 And now you know what is restraining, that he may be revealed in his own time. 7 For the [d]mystery of lawlessness is already at work; only [e]He who now restrains will do so until He is taken out of the way. 8 And then the lawless one will be revealed, whom the Lord will consume with the breath of His mouth and destroy with the brightness of His coming.

9 The coming of the lawless one is according to the working of Satan, with all power, signs, and lying wonders, 10 and with all unrighteous deception among those who perish, because they did not receive the love of the truth, that they might be saved.

11 And for this reason God will send them strong delusion, that they should believe the lie, 12 that they all may be condemned who did not believe the truth but had pleasure in unrighteousness.
the delusion of the love god who has come to gather all tribes in his own name , all religoins as one mind
Will cause great tribulation against the non conforming saints .
And many will beleive they do the will of God , of His love , of his plan for peace , when they round up
all who conformed not to its inclusive image . OH somethings going on my friend
And its getting minds formed to the lie and dead set against THE TRUTH whereby one could have been saved .
When the world rejects the gospel , well that is what the world does , either one hears to repent or they reject .
BUT WHEN CHRISTENDOM now leads the blind into a lie of anti christ through inclusivity of interfaith
THEN KNOW and understand the falling away grows massive .
And the blind within christendom lead the blind and all do merge
under the shade of what they do so beleive to be GOD and HIS love . ONLY IT AINT . oh its a delusion all right
and it has come to show them the way to what IT calleth peace n safety , to what it cliams IS OF GOD .
OH its a liar scott as are its children who heed the voice of this stranger .
 
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amigo de christo

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What shall I render to the Lord
For all His benefits toward me?
I will take up the cup of salvation,
And call upon the name of the Lord.
I will pay my vows to the Lord
Now in the presence of all His people.

Precious in the sight of the Lord
Is the death of His saints. - Psalm 116:12-15
The Glorious King Christ Jesus is with the saints . As He has been from the beginning , from even the days of paul and before .
Many have bled throughout all ages and this last hour will be no exception as it sheds the most blood
upon the saints . That which is not yet is and yet is not worketh amongst the realms of men
as it has for centuries . Stirring up the kings of this world , stirring up the unfaithful children
To make war against Christ and the saints . It has moved througout the ages
and what became of Jerusalem , has become upon christendom . THE HARLOT RULES the many
and the many love to drink her cup of fornication .
What befell the jews of old has come upon even christendom and the blind lead the blind
and the peoples holler away WITH the HOLY BIBLCAL VERSION of GOD and of that Christ
preach us smooth things . And the wicked repents not of his sin for they promise them life . OH its getting worse
all the time my friend . And now a reminder .
AND they loved NOT their lives unto the death . Be faithful unto death and I shall give thee a crown of life .
Persecutions ARE COMING . Praise GOD cause SO IS THE KING JESUS and at our end we have a real GOOD HOME
forever with THE KING who saved us .
 
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amigo de christo

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Thank You @keithr,
The KEY is to believe all that God has spoken.

Did not the Jews base their decision to crucify the Lord on scripture......

Satan uses scripture to deceive = Matthew 4:5

Then the devil took Him to the holy city and set Him on the pinnacle of the temple.
“If You are the Son of God,” he said, “throw Yourself down. For it is written:
‘He will command His angels concerning You,
and they will lift You up in their hands,
so that You will not strike Your foot
against a stone.’”
The KEY is to BELEIVE ALL that GOD has spoken .
Yes indeed my friend .
The mindset of the SHEEP is , IF GOD said it , ITS TRUTH .
If man says it ITS TESTED against TRUTH to ensure IT IS the TRUTH .
And if what man utters contradicts what is written , WELL the man is a liar .
I mean WE KNOW GOD DONT LIE . but men surely can .
 
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