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Is The Vatican >Mystrey Babylon?

Discussion in 'Eschatology & Prophecy Forum' started by blessedhope, Nov 12, 2017.

  1. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Member

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    If, as I assume, you are speaking of the destruction of Jerusalem and the temple in 70 A.D. then the Statue prophecy in Daniel 2 has no connection with the prophesied destruction of Jerusalem as possibly contained in the prophetic words in Daniel 8 and 9. In my post I was demonstrating that the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy was past present and future in its prophetic time span.

    Shalom
     
  2. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    Dan 2:36 This is the dream; and we will tell the interpretation thereof before the king.
    38d ... thou art the head of gold.

    Babylon


    Dan 2:39 And after thee shall arise another kingdom inferior to thee;
    Dan 8:20 The ram which thou sawest, that had the two horns, they are the kings of Media and Persia.

    Media and Persia


    Dan 2:39b and another third kingdom of brass
    Dan 8:21 And the rough he-goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king.

    Greece.


    Dan 2:40a And the fourth kingdom shall be strong as iron

    Dan 2:44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.
    Dan 2:45 Forasmuch as thou sawest that a stone was cut out of the mountain without hands, and that it brake in pieces the iron, the brass, the clay, the silver, and the gold; the great God hath made known to the king what shall come to pass hereafter: and the dream is certain, and the interpretation thereof sure.

    The kingdom which shall never be destroyed, was established when it was said: It is finished.

    This occurred during the fourth kingdom, that kingdom / beast being Rome. It was under Rome, that the city and the sanctuary of Jesus' day were destroyed.

    As for Daniel 8, it is explained, and the latter part, is of the "little horn" out of the four, being of and during the time of the reign of Greece.
     
  3. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Member

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    Richard, that may be your understanding of this prophecy but for over 10 years I have been suggesting that the earthly kingdom realms associated with the land of the Chaldeans in the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy has no connection with the Daniel 7:1-12 beast prophecy. Also I have been suggesting that Daniel 2 must be read in conjunction with Jeremiah 50-51 to come to a better understanding of the unfolding events.

    Daniel 8 provides the clues as to the demonic influence of the Little Horn in the destruction of the Jerusalem in 70 AD.

    The Everlasting Kingdom was not established

    In Jeremiah it speaks of a 2,000 plus year gap where the Land of the Chaldeans will be devastated and desolated before it is repopulated for the fourth segment of the Statue prophecy to become visible as a nation. It also speaks of the event of the Coalition of the Willing Going into the land to heal the land rather than to destroy the Land of the Chaldeans. It is not until this present era that the fourth kingdom was established in the Land of the Chaldeans and it is after the fifth kingdom/empire enters the Land of the Chaldeans that the Everlasting Kingdom is established in this Statue Prophecy.

    The everlasting kingdom was not established as you have suggested 2,000 or so years ago.

    Nor did the Roman Empire occupy the Land of the Chaldeans during their existence as an earlier Grecian dominion, one of the four kingdoms/empires that came out of Alexandra the Greats Kingdom.

    As for the four beasts of Daniel 7:1-12, they are demonic fallen heavenly host who still have their respective dominions over the people of the earth, who inhabit their respective dominions.

    That is why it is written that the beasts manifest themselves out of the sea of humanity.

    Shalom
     
  4. "ByGrace"

    "ByGrace" Well-Known Member

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    ..........[​IMG]

    Nothing to add here at all...too intellectual for my little peanut brain..but I am reading-along here . :D
     
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  5. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    Jeremiah 50-51 change nothing with regard to it. For that was written in the fourth year of the reign of Zedekiah:

    Jer 51:59 The word which Jeremiah the prophet commanded Seraiah ... when he went with Zedekiah the king of Judah to Babylon in the fourth year of his reign. ...


    That which Jeremiah wrote was: unto the end of the eleventh year of Zedekiah, the son of Josiah, king of Judah, unto the carrying away of Jerusalem captive in the fifth month.

    As we see:

    2Ki 25:2 So the city was besieged unto the eleventh year of king Zedekiah.

    2Ki 25:8 Now in the fifth month, on the seventh day of the month, which was the nineteenth year of king Nebuchadnezzar, king of Babylon, came Nebuzaradan the captain of the guard, a servant of the king of Babylon, unto Jerusalem. 9 And he burnt the house of YHVH, and the king's house; and all the houses of Jerusalem, even every great house, burnt he with fire.

    Jeremiah 50-51 are history. Thus they do nothing to support some future claim.

    Daniel understood from Jeremiah:

    Dan 9:2 in the first year of his reign I, Daniel, understood by the books the number of the years whereof the word of YHVH came to Jeremiah the prophet, for the accomplishing of the desolations of Jerusalem, even seventy years.

    We should also consider / take into account the 390 / 40 / 430 years Ezekiel 4. For they lead us to a particular point in history.


    The years of the captivity are reckoned from Jehoiachin [cf Eze 1:2 circa 593 BCE]. Jehoiachin only reigned 3 months before going into captivity. Circa 597 BCE.

    Nebuchadnezzar installs Mattaniah as king, changes his name to Zedekiah. Zedekiah reigns 11 years in total, rebels against Nebuchadnezzar, and Jerusalem is destroyed circa 586 BCE.

    Nebuchadnezzar is said to have reigned for 43 years, until circa 561 BCE.

    Evil-Merodach [Akkadian: Amel-Marduk] succeeds Nebuchadnezzar as king of Babylon circa 561 BCE [cf 2 Kings 25:27 ; Jeremiah 52:31].

    Neriglissar [Nergal-Sharezer] reigns for 4 years. His son Labashi-Marduk reigns for 9 months.

    Nabonidus rules Babylon from circa 555 / 556 BCE whose firstborn son is Belshazzar.

    An inscription found in Ur in 1853 confirms this, it reads: "May it be that I, Nabonidus, king of Babylon, never fail you. And may my firtstborn, Belshazzar ... "

    Nabonius reigned over Babylon until circa 538 BCE. In Daniel 5:16, Belshazzar indicates to Daniel that if he can read and make known the writing of MENE MENE TEKEL UPHARSIN that he would be the third ruler. Thus demonstrating that Nabonius was ruler over Babylon with Belshazzar his son as co-regent.


    According to the Babylonian record:

    "In the month of Tashritu, at the time when Cyrus battled the forces of Akkad in Opis on the Tigris river, the citizens of Akkad revolted against him, but Nabonidus scattered his opposition with a great slaughter. On the 14th day, Sippar was taken without a fight. Nabonidus then fled for his life. On the 16th day, Gubaru [Darius the Mede] the leader of Gutium along with the army of Cyrus entered Babylon without any opposition. Later they arrested Nabonidus when he returned to Babylon. ... Cyrus then sent his best wishes to the residents living there. His governor, Gubaru, then installed leaders to govern over all Babylon."
    [cf Dan 6:1-7].

    King Cyrus of Persia records of Belshazzar:
    "A coward was put in charge as the king ... with evil intent he did away with ... and desecrated the worship of the king of his gods, Marduk."

    According to the historians Xenophon, Berosus and Herodutus:
    "Cyrus then dug a trench and diverted the flow of the Euphrates river into the new channel which led to a swamp. The level of the river then dropped to such a level that it became like a stream. His army was then able to take the city by marching through the shallow waters ... The Babylonians at the time were celebrating a feast to one of their gods and they were taken by
    total surprise."

    The Babylonian Chronicles state that Babylon fell the equivalent date of Oct. 13 of the year 539 BCE.


    With 597 being reckoned as the first year of captivity, the end of seventy years would have been circa 528 / 527 BCE.

    The Temple was completed in the 6th year of Darius:
    Ezra 6:15 And this house was finished on the third day of the month Adar, which was in the sixth year of the reign of Darius the king. 16 And the children of Israel, the priests, and the Levites, and the rest of the children of the captivity, kept the dedication of this house of God with joy.

    BTW: While the exile is reckoned in Ezekiel 1:2 from the captivity of Jehoiachin. In case you didn't notice, the temple was destroyed in 586 BCE, and the year of it's completion was the 6th year of the reign of Darius ... Circa 516 BCE. Seventy years after it's destruction.


    Daniel 8 has nothing to do with the destruction of the city and the sanctuary under Rome circa 70 CE..

    The "little horn" of Daniel 8, comes out of Greece.

    Dan 8:8 And the he-goat magnified himself exceedingly: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and instead of it there came up four notable horns toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the glorious land.

    Dan 8:21 And the rough he-goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 And as for that which was broken, in the place whereof four stood up, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not with his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    Dan 8:11 Yea, it magnified itself, even to the prince of the host; and it took away from him the continual burnt-offering, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

    The city and the sanctuary were not destroyed under Greece, nor under this one out of Greece.

    Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    The sanctuary shall be cleansed. I can lay this out if necessary.


    So basically you are saying, that Jesus does not currently reign over a kingdom that is everlasting.

    Dan 2:44 And in the days of those kings shall the God of heaven set up a kingdom which shall never be destroyed, nor shall the sovereignty thereof be left to another people; but it shall break in pieces and consume all these kingdoms, and it shall stand for ever.



    Care to cite some support for that? Because I see a claim, and nothing offered in support other than conjecture.


    Since according to Daniel, chapter 9 to be specific, the city and the sanctuary were to be destroyed, according to you, under who was the city and the sanctuary destroyed?

    Since that did occur during the reign of the Roman Empire. Which, is the fourth beast with ten horns spoken of in Daniel, and the same beast of Revelation which has ten horns and seven heads. Daniel was not given much information regarding that fourth beast. The same beast of Revelation in which of the heads, "five are fallen".


    BTW: In Daniel 11:3, who is being spoken of / referred unto there?

    <snip>
     
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  6. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Member

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    Jeremiah 50-51 was written to foretell the history of today as it happens/is happening. It also covers the period of time around 250 BC when The Land of the chaldeans was stripped of people and the utilities in the land.



    In Jeremiah 50 it clearly states that the prophecy was for the time that Israel would be seeking their God and wanting to enter into an everlasting covenant with God.



    Jeremiah 50:4-5: - "In those days and in that time, says the Lord, the people of Israel and the people of Judah shall come together, weeping as they come; and they shall seek the Lord their God. They shall ask the way to Zion, with faces turned toward it, saying, 'Come, let us join ourselves to the Lord in an everlasting covenant which will never be forgotten.'



    Israel has entered the land of Canaan in their own strength and as such have not come weeping as they come seeking the Lord their God.



    This really ahs not happened yet.





    Ezewkiel 4 has nothing to do with the Statue Prophecy in Daniel 2 and as such is really a red herring on your part.





    The above snipped quote has nothing to do with the Daniel 2 Statue prophecy.





    Sadly the Roman Empire is one of the heads of the Third Beast of Daniel 7. In Daniel 8, we are told that the Little Horn Beast has influence over one of the heads of the third beast and that this head of the third Beast during the time of Christ and for 40 years afterwards was operating under the instruction of the Little Horn beast.



    Romans 11:25-27 speaks of the end of the 2,300 year period when the trampling of the Temple Sanctuary will cease which is due to end in around 25 years’ time after which all of Israel will be saved.





    The Works of Josephus confirm that the Land of the Chaldeans was never under the dominion of the Roman Empire as the land, when they entered it, was devastated and desolate of people. The Bible also confirms this view, IMHO. The Statue prophecy of Daniel 2 is all about what has and is to happen to the people and the land of Babylon, i.e. the land of the Chaldeans.





    BTW: In Daniel 11:3, who is being spoken of / referred unto there? Why Alexandra the Great, no less.



    The Roman Empire is one of the four heads of the four Grecians Empires that was formed up by the Generals when Alexandra the Great died.



    The Roman Empire is one of the people groups associated with the Third fallen wicked Heavenly host/beast as the Roman Empire had the attribute of Power over other people groups.



    The Roman Empire is not the fourth beast as you are suggesting. The fourth beast is manifested in the people who adhere to the Islamic Religion which speaks out great times against the God of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob. A characteristic of the Fourth beast. The influence of the third beast is still manifested today in kingdoms/nations/people groups that exercise domino over other people groups, empires and kingdoms.



    The Works of Josephus detail that the Roman Empire marched into the Land of the Chaldeans but that there were no people in the land to have dominion over.



    The four/five beasts of Daniel 7:1-12 are wicked fallen heavenly demonic heavenly hosts. The beasts are manifested in the people who chose to inhabit their respective dominions for a period of time, such that the beast's manifestations, ebb and flow over time. The fourth beast did not manifest itself until after the Euphrates River dried up, which allows the three kings held to be held in the abyss on the eastern side of the rivers, Satan, the beast and the Little Horn, can begin their march towards Jerusalem after they are released.



    Also there is no need for you to lay out the 2,300 year prophecy for my understanding as this prophecy still has around 25 or so years still to run after which all of Israel will be saved, Romans 11:25-27.



    Richard, I posted the Statue prophecy frond in Daniel 2 to demonstrate that the prophecy was associated with the Past, the present as well as the future.



    Your response was not focused on the Statue prophecy and many of the points that you raise had nothing to do with the Statue prophecy.



    Shalom
     
  7. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    Before the Babylonians, the Assyrians had control of Mesopotamia until circa 612 BCE. At which time, the Babylonians were also in part instrumental in the collapse of the Assyrian kingdom.

    Jer 50:18 Therefore thus saith YHVH of hosts, the God of Israel: Behold, I will punish the king of Babylon and his land, as I have punished the king of Assyria.


    2Ch 36:11 ... Zedekiah ... 12 ... hath not been humbled before Jeremiah ...

    2Ch 36:17a And He causeth to go up against them the king of the Chaldeans, and he slayeth their chosen ones by the sword in the house of their sanctuary

    Jer 50:28 A voice of fugitives and escaped ones Is from the land of Babylon, To declare in Zion the vengeance of YHVH our God, The vengeance of His temple.


    The Babylonians controlled Mesopotamia until circa 539 BCE, at which time, the Median - Persian kingdom took control.

    2 Chr 36:22a And in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, at the completion of the word of YHVH in the mouth of Jeremiah, hath YHVH waked up the spirit of Cyrus king of Persia ...
    23a Thus said Cyrus king of Persia, All kingdoms of the earth hath YHVH, God of the heavens, given to me, and He hath laid a charge on me to build to Him a house in Jerusalem ...

    Ezra 1:1a And in the first year of Cyrus king of Persia, at the completion of the word of YHVH from the mouth of Jeremiah ... 2 Thus said Cyrus king of Persia ... He hath laid a charge on me to build to Him a house in Jerusalem ...

    Dan 9:25 Know therefore and discern, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the anointed one, the prince, shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: it shall be built again, with street and moat, even in troublous times.

    Enter Haggai and Zechariah.


    Circa 331 BCE, along comes Alexander of Greece, and takes control of the land. Mesopotamia came under Seleucus I. The "East" of the four horns of Greece.

    Circa 250 BCE, the Parthians took control of much eastern Mesopotamia. The Selecid Empire however maintained control of Syria and finally fell under Pompey to the Roman Republic circa 63 BCE.

    Dan 11:44a And reports trouble him out of the east

    Who is "him"?


    Further: The Parthians maintained control of Mesopotamia until circa 224 CE when they fell to Persia [Sassanids] with whom there was conflict with Roman controlled Syria and later the Byzantine Empire until they were destroyed circa 641 CE by Arabia and along comes Islam.

    So, based upon the above "Cliff Notes" version of history laid out above, would you now care to support your statement(s) above.


    Ezra 10:1 Now while Ezra prayed and made confession, weeping and casting himself down before the house of God, there was gathered together unto him out of Israel a very great assembly of men and women and children; for the people wept very sore.

    Neh 8:1 And all the people gathered themselves together as one man into the broad place that was before the water gate; and they spake unto Ezra the scribe to bring the book of the law of Moses, which YHVH had commanded to Israel.

    Neh 8:3 ... the ears of all the people were attentive unto the book of the law.

    Neh 8:5 And Ezra opened the book ... and when he opened it, all the people stood up:

    Neh 8:9 ... For all the people wept, when they heard the words of the law.

    Neh 9:38 And yet for all this we make a sure covenant, and write it; and our princes, our Levites, and our priests, seal unto it.

    Neh 10:29 They clave to their brethren, their nobles, and entered into a curse, and into an oath, to walk in God's law, which was given by Moses the servant of God, and to observe and do all the commandments of Jehovah our Lord, and his ordinances and his statutes;



    Hag 1:14 And YHVH stirred up the spirit of Zerubbabel the son of Shealtiel, governor of Judah, and the spirit of Joshua the son of Jehozadak, the high priest, and the spirit of all the remnant of the people; and they came and did work on the house of YHVH of hosts, their God

    Zec 4:6 Then he answered and spake unto me, saying, This is the word of YHVH unto Zerubbabel, saying, Not by might, nor by power, but by my Spirit, saith YHVH of hosts.


    If that is what you think, so be it.


    Yet, it clearly laid out a a very small portion of the timeline. Can you clearly lay out a timeline with regard to that which you put forth? If so, would you be so kind as to do so?


    Alright, you have made a claim here. From my perspective, it is merely conjecture. So, can you offer collaboration from the Scriptures to support this claim. IOW: A second witness.

    For the third beast, has four heads. Just as out of Greece, come four horns.

    Further, the city and the sanctuary were not destroyed under the 3rd beast, nor by one of the horns / little horn out of the 3rd beast.

    To be continued.
     
  8. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    Part 2

    There is a "little horn" in Daniel 7, there is a separate and distinct "little horn" in Daniel 8. In Daniel 8, the explanation is given.

    Dan 8:8 And the he-goat magnified himself exceedingly: and when he was strong, the great horn was broken; and instead of it there came up four notable horns toward the four winds of heaven. 9 And out of one of them came forth a little horn, which waxed exceeding great, toward the south, and toward the east, and toward the glorious land.

    Dan 8:21 And the rough he-goat is the king of Greece: and the great horn that is between his eyes is the first king. 22 And as for that which was broken, in the place whereof four stood up, four kingdoms shall stand up out of the nation, but not with his power. 23 And in the latter time of their kingdom, when the transgressors are come to the full, a king of fierce countenance, and understanding dark sentences, shall stand up.

    Alexander is that "first king", and the four, rise up out of that same kingdom, which is Greece.

    Circa 336 BCE, Philip II of Macedon is assassinated and Alexander the Great takes the throne. The first king of the he-goat.

    Circa 334 BCE Alexander invades Persia ruled Asia Minor in a series of campaigns that lasted ten years.

    Circa 332 BCE, Alexander overthrows Darius III, king of Persia and conquers the entirety of the Persian Empire. Later in 332 BCE Alexander advanced upon Egypt.

    Circa 331 BCE Alexander advanced into Mesopotamia.

    Circa June of 323 BCE, Alexander dies of unknown causes. Many theories of poisonings / various diseases abound.

    War ensues within the kingdom of Greece with various factions all vying for power until it finally settled into four parts:

    North : Asia Minor ; Lysimachus

    West : Macedonia ; Cassander

    East : Syria ; Seleucus. Out of which came Antiochus IV Epiphanes, who reigned circa 175 - 164 BCE. The Seleucid Empire fell under Pompey of the Roman Republic circa 63 BCE.

    South : Egypt ; Ptolemy. Which was invaded by Antiochus IV Epiphanes circa 170 BCE with AE IV leaving Ptolemy as a puppet king. After years of war the southern kingdom allied itself for Rome for 150 years only to eventually succomb and be annexed by Rome.

    We now have the four horns in place of the great horn that was broken off [cf Dan 8:22]. All of these, are of the beast which was Greece. They are still part of the third beast out of the sea.


    Circa 167 BCE, AE IV returned to Jerusalem, outlawed Jewish customs and sparked the Maccabean revolt circa 167-160 BCE.

    With AE IV meeting his demise circa 164 BCE.

    AE IV was the little horn from out of the four [cf Dan 8:9] He is the one spoken of in Daniel 11:32-45.

    Again, this is all still a part of the third beast out of the sea, the he-goat, which is Greece. Daniel 11:2 speaks of the last king of Persia stirring up the realm of Greece.

    Under AE IV, the sanctuary was desecrated, but not destroyed.

    Dan 8:11 Yea, it magnified itself, even to the prince of the host; and it took away from him the continual burnt-offering, and the place of his sanctuary was cast down.

    The city and the sanctuary were not destroyed under Greece, nor under this one out of Greece.

    Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    The sanctuary shall be cleansed.

    I shall make a followup post regarding this.


    Of which Daniel 9:26 is clear that the city and the sanctuary would be destroyed, which it was under Rome. This, was the abomination of desolation that Jesus spoke of which was to come.


    Oy vey. The sanctuary was destroyed under Rome.

    Dan 8:14 And he said unto me, Unto two thousand and three hundred evenings and mornings; then shall the sanctuary be cleansed.

    They are evenings and mornings, literal days. Not years.


    Is that within a portion of the works of Josephus in which he is paraphrasing / quoting Scripture, or a clear statement. IOW: Cite Josephus regarding this. At the very least, supply book, chapter verse. Do not make claims without offering some supportive evidence. In my followup post, I also shall cite the works of Josephus, and not merely claim that it states such and such. At the very least, I shall offer a clear referrence such as "Ant. 10.11.7".


    Indeed. Of which, all of Daniel 11, is with regard to Greece. I have already laid out the "four winds" of that kingdom.


    Again, you are making this claim which from my perspective is nothing more than conjecture. Again, I need a witness from the Scriptures to support your claims. Please cite some collaborating / supporting evidence.


    So also do many of Christianity. Again, cite some collaborating / supportive evidence and Scripture. Otherwise this remains as merely conjecture. Not only conjecture, but also perhaps worse.


    Cite(s)? I have already laid out a brief history of the land.

    <snip until more above is addressed>


    Have you seriously considered / taken into account, all the alternative possibilities regarding it?


    Yes, I understand what you are / were attempting to do. However, I am putting it to the test, to see if it can stand.


    You are correct, it is not focused upon merely the "statue", for it is building a picture to the whole, to see if the "piece" you are presenting can stand up to and fit the fullness of the matter.
     
  9. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    Followup post:

    Regarding AE IV from Maccabees and Josephus.

    1 Maccabees 1:10 From them came forth a sinful root, Antiochus Epiphanes, son of King Antiochus; he had been a hostage in Rome. He began to reign in the one hundred thirty-seventh year of the kingdom of the Greeks. [cf Dan 8:9]

    Ant. 10.11.7 " ... afterward he saw a very great horn growing out of the head of the he-goat, and that when it was broken off, four horns grew up that were exposed to each of the
    four winds ... " [cf Dan 8:8]

    Ant. 10.11.7 " ... and he wrote that out of them arose another lesser horn, which, as he said, waxed great; and that God showed to him that it should fight against his nation, and take their city by force, and bring the temple worship to confusion, and forbid the sacrifices ... "

    Ant. 10.11.7 " ... and that from among them there should arise a certain king that should overcome our nation and their laws, and should take away their political government, and should spoil the temple, and forbid the sacrifices to be offered for three years' time. And indeed it so came to pass, that our nation suffered these things under Antiochus Epiphanes, according to Daniel's vision, and what he wrote many years before they came to pass. In the very same
    manner Daniel also wrote concerning the Roman government, and that our country should be made desolate by them. All these things did this man leave in writing, as God had showed them to him, insomuch that such as read his prophecies, and see how they have been fulfilled, would wonder at the honor wherewith God honored Daniel"

    In the above, you will notice that there was not just the first time under Antiochus Epiphanes, but again under the Romans that Josephus writes with regard too.


    1 Maccabees 1:21 He arrogantly entered the sanctuary and took the golden altar, the lampstand for the light, and all its utensils. 22 He took also the table for the bread of the Presence, the cups for drink offerings, the bowls, the golden censers, the curtain, the crowns, and the gold decoration on the front of the temple; he stripped it all off. 23 He took the silver and the gold, and the costly vessels; he took also the hidden treasures that he found. 24 Taking them all, he went into his own land. He shed much blood, and spoke with great arrogance. [cf Daniel 8:10-11]

    Wars 1:1:2. "Now Antiochus was not satisfied either with his unexpected taking the city, or with its pillage, or with the great slaughter he had made there; but being overcome with his violent passions, and remembering what he had suffered during the siege, he compelled the Jews to dissolve the laws of their country, and to keep their infants uncircumcised, and to sacrifice swine's flesh upon the altar; against which they all opposed themselves, and the most
    approved among them were put to death." [cf Dan 8:9-12]

    1 Maccabees 1:29 Two years later the king sent to the cities of Judah a chief collector of tribute, and he came to Jerusalem with a large force. 30 Deceitfully he spoke peaceable words
    to them, and they believed him; but he suddenly fell upon the city, dealt it a severe blow, and destroyed many people of Israel. 31 He plundered the city, burned it with fire, and tore down its
    houses and its surrounding walls. 32 They took captive the women and children, and seized the livestock. [cf Dan 8:11-24 ; 24-25]

    1 Maccabees 1:37 On every side of the sanctuary they shed innocent blood; they even defiled the sanctuary. 38 Because of them the residents of Jerusalem fled; she became a dwelling
    of strangers; she became strange to her offspring, and her children forsook her. 39 Her sanctuary became desolate like a desert; her feasts were turned into mourning, her sabbaths
    into a reproach, her honor into contempt. 40 Her dishonor now grew as great as her glory; her exaltation was turned into mourning. [cf Dan 8:11-12 ; 24-25]

    41 Then the king wrote to his whole kingdom that all should be one people, 42 and that all should give up their particular customs. 43 All the Gentiles accepted the command of the king. Many even from Israel gladly adopted his religion; they sacrificed to idols and profaned the sabbath. 44 And the king sent letters by messengers to Jerusalem and the towns of Judah; he directed them to follow customs strange to the land, 45 to forbid burnt offerings and sacrifices and drink offerings in the sanctuary, to profane sabbaths and festivals, 46 to defile the sanctuary and the priests, 47 to build altars and sacred precincts and shrines for idols, to sacrifice swine and other unclean animals, 48 and to leave their sons uncircumcised. They were to make themselves abominable by everything unclean and profane, 49 so that they would forget the law and change all the ordinances. 50 He added, "And whoever does not obey the
    command of the king shall die."

    54 Now on the fifteenth day of Chislev, in the one hundred forty-fifth year, they erected a desolating sacrilege on the altar of burnt offering. They also built altars in the surrounding towns of Judah, 55 and offered incense at the doors of the houses and in the streets. 56 The books of the law that they found they tore to pieces and burned with fire. 57 Anyone found possessing the book of the covenant, or anyone who adhered to the law, was condemned to death by decree of the king. 58 They kept using violence against Israel, against those who were found month after month in the towns. 59 On the twenty-fifth day of the month they offered sacrifice on the altar that was on top of the altar of burnt offering. 60 According to the decree, they put to death the women who had their children circumcised, 61 and their families and those who circumcised them; and they hung the infants from their mothers' necks. 62 But many in Israel stood firm and were resolved in their hearts not to eat unclean food. 63 They chose to die rather than to
    be defiled by food or to profane the holy covenant; and they did die. 64 Very great wrath came upon Israel. [cf Daniel 11:31]

    Ant 12:5:4. "Now it came to pass, after two years, in the hundred forty and fifth year, on the twenty-fifth day of that month which is by us called Chasleu, and by the Macedonians Apelleus, in the hundred and fifty-third olympiad, that the king came up to Jerusalem, and, pretending peace, he got possession of the city by treachery; at which time he spared not so much as those that admitted him into it, on account of the riches that lay in the temple; but, led by his covetous inclination ... he forbade them to offer those daily sacrifices which they used to offer to God, according to the law. ... And when the king had built an idol altar upon God's altar, he slew swine upon it, and so offered a sacrifice neither according to the law, nor the Jewish religious worship in that country. He also compelled them to forsake the worship which they paid their own God ... And if there were any sacred book of the law found, it was destroyed, and those with whom they were found miserably perished also." [cf Dan 11:31]

    2 Maccabees 5:21 So Antiochus carried off eighteen hundred talents from the temple, and hurried away to Antioch, thinking in his arrogance that he could sail on the land and walk on the
    sea, because his mind was elated.

    Dan 8:25 And through his policy he shall cause craft to prosper in his hand; and he shall magnify himself in his heart, and in their security shall he destroy many: he shall also stand up against the prince of princes; but he shall be broken without hand.

    Thus, signifying the manner of his death.

    To be continued.
     
  10. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    Followup part 2:

    2 Maccabees 9:4 Transported with rage, he conceived the idea of turning upon the Jews the injury done by those who had put him to flight; so he ordered his charioteer to drive without stopping until he completed the journey. But the judgment of heaven rode with him! For in his arrogance he said, "When I get there I will make Jerusalem a cemetery of Jews." 5 But the all-seeing Lord, the God of Israel, struck him with an incurable and invisible blow. As soon as he stopped speaking he was seized with a pain in his bowels, for which there was no relief, and with sharp internal tortures - 6 and that very justly, for he had tortured the bowels of others with many and strange inflictions. 7 Yet he did not in any way stop his insolence, but was even more filled with arrogance, breathing fire in his rage against the Jews, and giving orders to drive even faster. And so it came about that he fell out of his chariot as it was rushing along, and the fall was so hard as to torture every limb of his body. 8 Thus he who only a little while before had thought in his superhuman arrogance that he could command the waves of the sea, and had imagined that he could weigh the high mountains in a balance, was brought down to earth and carried in a litter, making the power of God manifest to all. 9 And so the ungodly man's body swarmed with worms, and while he was still living in anguish and pain, his flesh rotted away, and because of the stench the whole army felt revulsion at his decay. 10 Because of his intolerable stench no one was able to carry the man who a little while before had thought
    that he could touch the stars of heaven. 11 Then it was that, broken in spirit, he began to lose much of his arrogance and to come to his senses under the scourge of God, for he was tortured with pain every moment. 12 And when he could not endure his own stench, he uttered these words, "It is right to be subject to God; mortals should not think that they are equal to God." 13 Then the abominable fellow made a vow to the Lord, who would no longer have mercy on him, ...

    28 So the murderer and blasphemer, having endured the more intense suffering, such as he had inflicted on others, came to the end of his life by a most pitiable fate, among the mountains in a strange land.

    Ant. 12.9.1 "When this concern about these affairs was added to the former, he was confounded, and by the anxiety he was in fell into a distemper, which, as it lasted a great while, and as his pains increased upon him, so he at length perceived he should die in a little time; so he called his friends to him, and told them that his distemper was severe upon him; and confessed withal, that this calamity was sent upon him for the miseries he had brought upon the Jewish nation, while he plundered their temple, and contemned their God; and when he had said this, he gave up the ghost."

    Ant. 13.8.2 "Antiochus Epiphanes, who, when he had taken the city, offered swine upon the altar, and sprinkled the temple with the broth of their flesh, in order to violate the laws of the Jews, and the religion they derived from their forefathers; for which reason our nation made war with him, and would never be reconciled to him;"

    Wars 5:9.4 "For another example, when Antiochus, who was called Epiphanes, lay before this city, and had been guilty of many indignities against God, and our forefathers met him in arms, they then were slain in the battle, this city was plundered by our enemies, and our sanctuary made desolate for three years and six months. And what need I bring any more examples? Indeed what can it be that hath stirred up an army of the Romans against our nation?"

    _____________________________________________________________

    Circa 167 BCE AE IV outlawed Jewish customs.

    IOW: took away the continual burnt offering amoung other things.

    Daniel 12 speaks of there being 1,290 days from the time the continual burnt offering is taken away until the abomination that makes desolate is set up. Which, was also done under AE IV.
    But blessed in the one waits until the end of the 1,335.

    AE IV was overtaken and succombed without hand circa 164 BCE. Thus, it is possible, that AE IV took away the continual burnt offering circa 167 BCE, sparking the Maccabean revolt which also began that year. Thus, 1,290 days, from the time the continual burnt offering was taken away, AE IV sets up the abomination that makes desolate. And the end of the 1,335
    days, was the death of AE IV without hand.

    From circa 167 BCE until 2,300 evenings and mornings are completed, brings us to circa 160 BCE. Which also happens to correspond with the end of the Maccabean revolt.

    1 Macc 4:52 Now on the five and twentieth day of the ninth month, which is called the month Casleu, in the hundred forty and eighth year, they rose up betimes in the morning ...

    56 And so they kept the dedication of the altar eight days and offered burnt offerings with gladness, and sacrificed the sacrifice of deliverance and praise. ...

    59 Moreover Judas and his brethren with the whole congregation of Israel ordained, that the days of the dedication of the altar should be kept in their season from year to year by the space of eight days, from the five and twentieth day of the month Casleu, with mirth and gladness.

    2 Macc 10:5 Now upon the same day that the strangers profaned the temple, on the very same day it was cleansed again, even the five and twentieth day of the same month, which is Casleu. ...
    8 They ordained also by a common statute and decree, That every year those days should be kept of the whole nation of the Jews.

    Of which, that is the "Feast of Dedication" that Jesus went up to in John 10:22.
     
  11. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Member

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    @Richard_oti
    Perhaps you may like to provide your paraphrase of Jeremiah 50:39 to see if we both have the same understanding of this verse.
     
  12. Truth

    Truth Active Member

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    Yes! I went back to find where they were to hear the Torah! In Deuteronomy 31 they were to go to the temple at the end of the seventh year, at the feast of Tabernacles, and all were to hear Moses taught, and that their children that had never heard it would Hear!
     
  13. Truth

    Truth Active Member

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    Read Deuteronomy 31, at the end of the Sabbath year they were to come to Temple and hear Moses taught, during the Feast of Tabernacles
     
  14. kepha31

    kepha31 Well-Known Member

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    You implied they did nothing for 7 years but listened to Moses every day. Sounds kinda boring. Children may have heard it but that does not mean they understood all of it. "hear the words of Moses Preached"where they hear the Torah!", "all were to hear Moses taught" supports oral preaching, not sola scriptura.
     
  15. Truth

    Truth Active Member

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    NO! I never implied they did nothing for seven years! I said they kept a seventh year Sabbath, a Sabbath rest for the land, and if you were a person of Agriculture, then you would be left without much to do. They did care for their flocks, but as far as the land they didn't sow,Prune their vineyards, or reap anything that grew up of its own, all that did grow was for the poor the widows and the beasts, like their ox, and cattle, and sheep, they could graze freely, and as far as listening to the word of God, the people of the land were not RICH, so they could not afford a Torah scroll in every home. read your New Testament where the Ethiopian was in his chariot reading the scroll of Isaiah, a eunuch of great authority under Candace the Queen of the Ethiopians. It cost a years wages to obtain a scroll of the Torah, not everyone could afford a scroll. it was written on the hides of at least 55 sheep, so one would have to be fairly wealthy to have one [ Acts 8:26-40] Also Baptism was an act of submersion in water, not a sprinkling, the Hebrews were not unaware of this method of repentance, they called it Michva, so when John was Baptizing in the Jordan it was totally except-able, this was not something new to them. Oral preaching was the only means of transmitting Gods word to the people. I love Gods word and there is nothing Boring about it to me, I also expressed the fact that they were to come to the Temple at the end of the seventh year at the Feast of Tabernacles and hear the word of God from the Priests. read Deuteronomy 31:10-13, if a child was born 3 years before this seven year Sabbath then that child would have never heard the teaching of Moses!
     
  16. kepha31

    kepha31 Well-Known Member

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    ok.
     
  17. EndTimeWine

    EndTimeWine Active Member

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    I get what your saying, you convey your thought's well. Some people have their hands over their ears, in pride; most of the time it is because they do not know what you know, and resent your knowledge. God Bless!
     
  18. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    I am quite sure that I read it basically the same as you:

    Jer 50:39 Therefore the wild beasts of the desert with the wolves shall dwell there, and the ostriches shall dwell therein: and it shall be no more inhabited for ever; neither shall it be dwelt in from generation to generation.

    If you will notice, I spoke of Mesopotamia, which is the region in which the city of Babylon lays. Babylon lies in ruins to this day. It is an ancient city, from long before Nebuchadnezzar. Have you ever read Hammurabi's Code, circa 18th century BCE. It was an interesting read. It wasn't until after the death of Alexander the Great, that the city began to see any real decline and Seleucia was built under Seleucid [circa 320 - 305 BCE]. By the time the Roman Empire, or even the Roman Republic arrived on scene, Babylon itself was fairly destitute and in decay. There would have been nothing really for the Romans to have found there.
     
  19. Jay Ross

    Jay Ross Member

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    Perhaps not. You are reading the verse as if it has an infinite time span where as I understand that the verse has a finite time span of two ages, i.e. around 2,000, where H:1755 is better understood to have the meaning of an "age" rather than a "generation."

    From a historical perspective, this understanding seems to fit just as Isaiah 61:4 also suggests a 2,000 years period of desolation and devastation before the house s are rebuilt in Israel.
     
  20. Richard_oti

    Richard_oti Well-Known Member

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    What or who is Jeremiah 50:39 referring unto?
    What or who is Isaiah 61:4 referring unto?

    And no, I do not see it as an "infinite" time span. For that would be illogical. However, to attempt to define an "age" as being around a thousand, is also illogical from my perspective. For you have nothing substantial to base that upon. It is again, conjecture.
     
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