Is the world under sin considering Jesus paid for it?

[MatthewG]

1 John 2:2 :He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 6:23 (Jesus paid the wages of sin - > He died!) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Please feel free to share your thoughts and comments.

 

[amadeus]

1 John 2:2 :He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 6:23 (Jesus paid the wages of sin - > He died!) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Please feel free to share your thoughts and comments.

Our first carnal parents died when they disobeyed God. All of their offspring were born dead.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Gen 3:6

Jesus came to bring the opportunity for Life to those who were dead:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

And then consider this:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

And this:

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53

 

[ChristisGod]

1 John 2:2 :He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 6:23 (Jesus paid the wages of sin - > He died!) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Please feel free to share your thoughts and comments.

Why ask ? According to you in 70ad satan and sin was over with when Jesus supposedly returned.

hope this helps !!!

 

[MatthewG]

So what to you remains my friend?

Faithlessness, and faithfulness?

 

[ChristisGod]

Everything since Christ has not returned and satan is active , alive and well on this earth ruling this world as its prince

 

[MatthewG]

Everything since Christ has not returned and satan is active , alive and well on this earth ruling this world as its prince

Cool Chris. Thank you for sharing your perspective, commenting.

 

[MatthewG]

Our first carnal parents died when they disobeyed God. All of their offspring were born dead.

"But of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil, thou shalt not eat of it: for in the day that thou eatest thereof thou shalt surely die." Gen 2:17

"And when the woman saw that the tree was good for food, and that it was pleasant to the eyes, and a tree to be desired to make one wise, she took of the fruit thereof, and did eat, and gave also unto her husband with her; and he did eat." Gen 3:6

Jesus came to bring the opportunity for Life to those who were dead:

"The thief cometh not, but for to steal, and to kill, and to destroy: I am come that they might have life, and that they might have it more abundantly." John 10:10

And then consider this:

"No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day." John 6:44

And this:

"Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you." John 6:53

Ama, hope you do not mind these questions,

What is it that draws us to the Father though? Is there an answer to that question?

What is so enticing about the Father in heaven?

 

[APAK]

1 John 2:2 :He is the propitiation for our sins, and not for ours only but also for the sins of the whole world.

Romans 6:23 (Jesus paid the wages of sin - > He died!) For the wages of sin is death, but the free gift of God is eternal life in Christ Jesus our Lord.

2 Corinthians 5:19 that God was reconciling the world to himself in Christ, not counting people’s sins against them. And he has committed to us the message of reconciliation.

Please feel free to share your thoughts and comments.

Matthew, you must think that when John writes the term 'whole world' it meant all human beings whether Judahites and other people from other nations who are/were reborn or not? And this is so eye-catching especially if you just pull it out as a stand-alone verse and interpret it at face-value only?

Look at 1 John 2:2 once again, and before reading it start with verse 1. John is writing about sin in a local believers' life and reminds his audience of believers that they have Christ as their mediator for their sins as he atoned for their sins. And then John immediately adds this thought about Christ's atonement for sin to 'all' the world. Note that the translation 'whole' is not from its Greek word counterpart, it is 'all.' or 'out of all'

Now do you think that John is extending this thought to all believers from all nations and Judahites in the world or to all or anyone in the world whether being saved or not? And remember John is writing to Judahite believers. I would think that John is logical and only speaking to all other believers, present and future in the world besides his immediate audience of Judahite believers.

The Day of Atonement of the Law recorded especially in the OT dealt with the sins of the people on a cyclical annual basis. They never offered animals as a figure of and imperfect redemption for every person who was alive that year in any place of the globe. Instead, it was an atonement for the people of Israel only. The same as Jesus for the permanent sacrifice and atonement of sin.

The unbelieving world of any tribe or nation is still under sin and condemned then and today! How can you sacrifice your life for all or anybody, eventhough most will never accept this as atonement for sin as God already knows anyway? I would think the Father allowed his Son to go the Cross and atone for sin for all he knew who believe in the end. This atonement has to be effective, focused for those who would believe.

 

[MatthewG]

Thank you for your insights that you have shared Apak, I do take it at face value, just like this verse here my friend.

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

I see the atonement accounted on all believers and non-believers, just non believers are not saved to the kingdom of heaven they will reside out side from the suggestive scene John gives in revelation.

This to me is good news!

 

[APAK]

Thank you for your insights that you have shared Apak, I do take it at face value, just like this verse here my friend.

That is why we labor and strive, because we have put our hope in the living God, who is the Savior of all people, and especially of those who believe.

I see the atonement accounted on all believers and non-believers, just non believers are not saved to the kingdom of heaven they will reside out side from the suggestive scene John gives in revelation.

This to me is good news!

Matthew, if Yahshua atoned for everyone’s sins in the past, present and future generations of the world, of those already dead in their sins, and those in the present who will never become converted and the same of future generations, then that suggests that his atonement is a universal atonement and all are saved in the end, all are justified and sanctified. There is no need for God then to bring salvation to them and draw them to him as the elect or chosen ones for the Kingdom, because all humans who ever lived or will live are now slated for the Kingdom. No need for evangelism to preach the gospel either. It is all done for all people on the Cross for all

....'and especially for believers..' as you said. What does that mean? I see you have worked in a place and a reason why atonement is also for unbelievers because of your eschatological view.

The same misapplication of atonement is also found in John 3:16 another very popular verse grossly misunderstood. And you will find out that God did NOT ‘Sooo’ love ‘the world’ at all, because it was mistranslated from the commoner’s Greek language.

Late addition:
I am the good shepherd, and I know my own, and my own know me, even as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. (John 10:14-15)

 

[MatthewG]

Matthew, if Yahshua atoned for everyone’s sins in the past, present and future generations of the world, of those already dead in their sins, and those in the present who will never become converted and the same of future generations, then that suggests that his atonement is a universal atonement and all are saved in the end, all are justified and sanctified. There is no need for God then to bring salvation to them and draw them to him as the elect or chosen ones for the Kingdom, because all humans who ever lived or will live are now slated for the Kingdom. No need for evangelism to preach the gospel either. It is all done for all people on the Cross for all

....'and especially for believers..' as you said. What does that mean? I see you have worked in a place and a reason why atonement is also for unbelievers because of your eschatological view.

The same misapplication of atonement is also found in John 3:16 another very popular verse grossly misunderstood. And you will find out that God did NOT ‘Sooo’ love ‘the world’ at all, because it was mistranslated from the commoner’s Greek language.

Late addition:
I am the good shepherd, and I know my own, and my own know me, even as the Father knows me and I know the Father; and I lay down my life for the sheep. (John 10:14-15)

That is Cool, brother.

Some only believe that Jesus had a limited atonement, I just can’t accept that as fact due to the overwhelming evidences in the Bible.

You are right, about the eschatological factor.

Even if you are someone who believes in limited atonement I will love you as a brother in Christ as that what we are called to do and what will matter in the end of all matters.

Did the individual have love for God and others, or did they reap and sow to their flesh and not choose to love God and others, ya know what I mean brother?

 

[APAK]

That is Cool, brother.

Some only believe that Jesus had a limited atonement, I just can’t accept that as fact due to the overwhelming evidences in the Bible.

You are right, about the eschatological factor.

Even if you are someone who believes in limited atonement I will love you as a brother in Christ as that what we are called to do and what will matter in the end of all matters.

Did the individual have love for God and others, or did they reap and sow to their flesh and not choose to love God and others, ya know what I mean brother?

You have bought into the famous straw man argument that does not exist. There is no such thing as a 'limited' atonement, that carnal minds promote and rail against real genuine believers, because they 'feel' left out of God's plans as God is love after all as the song goes. God dare not leave anyone out, because he is a merciful God, right?

No, it is the atonement designed by God for believers period, always has been and will continue to be the same for future generations of believers in the world. The 'limited' concept was devised and promoted by non-believers and those that profess they know Yahshua today.

 

[MatthewG]

I cannot help I believe Jesus death, burial, and resurrection was for all people and his atonement was universal. There are people who do believe in limited atonement brother, so anyway thank you for commenting and sharing what you deemed necessary to share.

 

[dhh712]

Jesus said, "Come to me all you who are weary laden and I will give you rest." "I will not turn any away who call on my name." At the ascension he said, "Go and make disciples of all nations.... teaching them to observe all that I have commanded you."

So no, it's not a passive saving (though God can do that if he chooses; I believe this is how infants and mentally handicapped people are saved; it's not our faith that saves but Jesus alone. Faith is merely the tool which God uses as the ordinary means of salvation) but it's a responsive part on the believer as well.

I cannot help I believe Jesus death, burial, and resurrection was for all people and his atonement was universal. There are people who do believe in limited atonement brother, so anyway thank you for commenting and sharing what you deemed necessary to share.

I wish that were true. I do not care for the idea of hell in the slightest (wish annihilation was what God reveled to us, if there must be punishment at judgment which I am glad that there is just wish it was on my standards and not God's). But that is just not what God reveals to us in his word. Universal reconciliation conflicts with a large amount of Scripture; it makes a lot of it not make much sense and makes Jesus out to be a liar.

Even if you are someone who believes in limited atonement I will love you as a brother in Christ as that what we are called to do and what will matter in the end of all matters.

Oh, that's good to know. I would think you no less a brother in Jesus if you believe in universal reconciliation as well. I feel of course that is not correct (though I'd rather have that than eternal hell) but then I'm very certain there are things about God's word that I do not have the correct understanding of either.

Though as APAK was saying, I really don't care for the word "limited" to describe Jesus' atonement either. I don't understand it to be limited in the slightest! Makes it sounds negative in some way. He surely did die to save the entire world but not every one will choose to believe in Jesus, they would rather die in their sins because their sins are more desirable than God to them.

But yes, I do not see UR to be a "fundamental" of the Christian religion. If I'm remembering correctly, those are 1) the infallibility of God's word 2) the virgin birth 3) reality of miracles 4) bodily resurrection of Jesus and 5) his atonement for our sins (whoever "our" is: I don't believe that's everyone who has ever lived but rather those--a portion of the whole-- whom the Lord has chosen before the foundation of the world).

 

[MatthewG]

Welcome Dhh,

I am know by most as a heretic, and believe all that Jesus promised to do has came to fruition, I don’t believe in annihilationism, or that people will end up in hell.

I believe if Jesus was a liar he never showed up to redeem the bride that was promised to be redeemed back in that day in age. Most people believe Jesus when he said in

Matthew 24 Truly I tell you, this generation will certainly not pass away until all these things have happened.

Will happen in a future generation, so it all depends on you and what you believe about the Bible as a whole, you can see the vision John gave in Revelation 22 stands true against all people who believe that nonbelievers will be destroyed, instead they will be given a limited resurrection and be outside the kingdom of heavenly Jerusalem.

To me this great news, not just good.

The mother who lost a son who was ardent atheist perhaps in the heavenly realm can go out to find her son… it leaves work for us to continue to do something for God in heaven.

God bless and thank you for sharing.

 

[MatthewG]

Sometimes hearing some things what people say make me question, is God as really as good as the scriptures say he is?

Is God really love and desire all to come to the truth and knowledge of his son, and desire none to perish?

Good questions to ask oneself.

 

[MatthewG]

Some people have never asked me what I believe about revelation 20 or 21.

I believe that first just to get it out of the way the wrath of God was poured out on Jerusalem, in 70Ad and his wrath no longer abides on anyone.

The devil, the false prophet and the beast where all done away with, in 21 you see people being and having a part in the lake of fire.

I believe this lake of fire is some type of purging of fire that purges away darkness, perhaps if anyone in the heavenly realm have the ability to enter into the kingdom of Heaven which doesn’t say the gates ever close them out experience this type of purging going through it, as it said in scripture that God is an consuming fire.

I really don’t know.

Never believe me but go to scriptures and search it out for oneself laboring for God is an actual hard work.

Anyway I need to study more and things like that thank you all for your time and God bless.

 

[Lifelong_sinner]

Sometimes hearing some things what people say make me question, is God as really as good as the scriptures say he is?

Is God really love and desire all to come to the truth and knowledge of his son, and desire none to perish?

Good questions to ask oneself.

 

[dhh712]

Sometimes hearing some things what people say make me question, is God as really as good as the scriptures say he is?

Is God really love and desire all to come to the truth and knowledge of his son, and desire none to perish?

Good questions to ask oneself.

Good is subjective unless you have something on which to objectively base it. God is definitely not good according to the standards of a lot of people which are based on.... ? Not sure. It appears to me on the changing opinions of society.

Jam 1:17-- every good gift and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. That is the first verse that came to mind and don't have the time to look up any others. But the point is that God makes the call on what is good because his word is the only absolute truth there is. The only question is do we believe his word or something else? God is a lot more than just good as well. But I don't have the time to go into all the attributes.

 

[MatthewG]

Good is subjective unless you have something on which to objectively base it. God is definitely not good according to the standards of a lot of people which are based on.... ? Not sure. It appears to me on the changing opinions of society.

Jam 1:17-- every good gift and perfect gift is from above, coming down from the Father of lights with whom there is no variation or shadow due to change. That is the first verse that came to mind and don't have the time to look up any others. But the point is that God makes the call on what is good because his word is the only absolute truth there is. The only question is do we believe his word or something else? God is a lot more than just good as well. But I don't have the time to go into all the attributes.

Thank you for sharing I was thumbing through the Bible I had just come in the mail and found this.


Hebrews 6:11-12
New Living Translation

11 Our great desire is that you will keep on loving others as long as life lasts, in order to make certain that what you hope for will come true. 12 Then you will not become spiritually dull and indifferent. Instead, you will follow the example of those who are going to inherit God’s promises because of their faith and endurance.