Is There Any Hope for the Unsaved Dead?

[Ronald Nolette]

Jesus told the self-righteous chief priests and religious elders at Jerusalem: “The tax collectors and the harlots are going ahead of you into the kingdom of God.”
But they did not enter into the Kingdom as greedy, extortionate tax collectors or as harlots, did they? Paul says: “Neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor men kept for unnatural purposes, nor men who lie with men, nor thieves, nor greedy persons, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners will inherit God’s kingdom. And yet that is what some of you were. But you have been washed clean, but you have been sanctified, but you have been declared righteous in the name of our Lord Jesus Christ and with the spirit of our God.” (1 Cor 6:9-11)

The churches are rife with thieves, gays, drunkards, greedy people, revilers and adulterers.....they have not been "washed clean" because they are still practicing those things.....and their Pastors are reluctant to bring them to account.....I wonder why? Nothing to do with their income or anything....? It is their job to keep the congregation spiritually and morally clean. (1 Cor 5:9-13)
Slack shepherds will render an account.

Well we followers of jesus know we are righteous because Jesus is our righteousness and not some list of deeds done.

And if you had read scripture carefully you would know that in the churches would be wheat and weeds until the end. How many churches are rife? Have you done a survey? And how do you know all the bible believing churches pastors are not busy trying to reconcile the sinners to God? Have you called or visited them or are you just making general unknown allegations to paint churches?

What is this parable all about?.......the resurrection. The Sadducees didn't believe in it.
Brother-in-law marriage was an obligation among the Jews so that when a man died childless, (to protect inheritance rights) the sister in law that he took as a wife was then able to have a child by proxy for her dead husband.

Jesus did not answer with a parable. Yes, one of the truths taught is about teh resurrection, but you miss the bigger lesson jesus was trying to teach the Pharisees:

That Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead but alive! God is not the God of the dead, but the living. So if we are to believe Jesus at His word, if Abraham< Isaac and Jacob are dead, God is no tlonger their God, for as Jesus said: "God is not the God of the dead, but the living".

That is clearly not true. Not all are granted life because God has consigned some to "Gehenna"....nothing alive ever went into gehenna. It was a place to dispose of garbage.....permanently. We do not have an immortal soul.....that is a satanic lie. Souls die. (Ezekiel 18:4)
Souls are resurrected to resume life in the paradise that God first gave to Adam and his wife.....the life that was lost is restored, thanks to Jesus' sacrifice.

YOu err for you do not know the Scriptures.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

At teh end of trime, the sea, death and the grave will give up the dead in them. The Watchtower has lied to you !

Where does Rev 20 even suggest such a thing? The lost reunited with their immortalized bodies to be cast into the lake of fire???? Are you serious?
Can you tell me why God would do such a thing? Immortality is a gift granted only to the righteous......the wicked are not resurrected so their "everlasting punishment" is everlasting death....is God some kind of fiend that he should take pleasure in the eternal punishment of those from whom he can simply withdraw the gift of life? What is the purpose of punishment for its own sake? Where will I find such a punishment in the laws of God? Where is the justice?

It doesn't suggest- it declares! God would do such a thing because He said He would! YOu judge God based on your own finite human emotional state, I believe God when He says He will do something.

 

[Earburner]

Well we followers of jesus know we are righteous because Jesus is our righteousness and not some list of deeds done.

And if you had read scripture carefully you would know that in the churches would be wheat and weeds until the end. How many churches are rife? Have you done a survey? And how do you know all the bible believing churches pastors are not busy trying to reconcile the sinners to God? Have you called or visited them or are you just making general unknown allegations to paint churches?


Jesus did not answer with a parable. Yes, one of the truths taught is about teh resurrection, but you miss the bigger lesson jesus was trying to teach the Pharisees:

That Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead but alive! God is not the God of the dead, but the living. So if we are to believe Jesus at His word, if Abraham< Isaac and Jacob are dead, God is no tlonger their God, for as Jesus said: "God is not the God of the dead, but the living".

YOu err for you do not know the Scriptures.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

At teh end of trime, the sea, death and the grave will give up the dead in them. The Watchtower has lied to you !


It doesn't suggest- it declares! God would do such a thing because He said He would! YOu judge God based on your own finite human emotional state, I believe God when He says He will do something.

All, after the judgment of Adam, do die. However, all who have died without having faith in Jesus, have been judged ALREADY unto condemnation (eternal death), which is the 2nd death. KJV John 3:18.
The proof of that is Rom. 8:9, Phillippians 4:3 and Rev. 20:15. Absolutely no one is going to get into the KoG/Heaven by performing good works alone.
There are NO second chances!!

 

[Earburner]

Well we followers of jesus know we are righteous because Jesus is our righteousness and not some list of deeds done.

Amen!

 

[DJT_47]

No. Zero

 

[quietthinker]

God does give his own answer to all your suppositions and questions Gen. 6
[5] And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.
[6] And it repented the LORD that he had made man on the earth, and it grieved him at his heart.
[7] And the LORD said, I will destroy man whom I have created from the face of the earth; both man, and beast, and the creeping thing, and the fowls of the air; for it repenteth me that I have made them.
[8] But Noah found grace in the eyes of the LORD.
[9] These are the generations of Noah: Noah was a just man and perfect in his generations, and Noah walked with God.

1 Peter 3
[18] For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
[19] By which also he went and preached [through Noah] unto the spirits [people] in prison [the prison house of their bodies of sin, because there was no Law];
[20] Which sometime were disobedient, WHEN once the longsuffering of GOD WAITED in the days of Noah, WHILE the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
[21] The like figure whereunto even baptism doth also now save us (not the putting away of the filth of the flesh, but the answer of a good conscience toward God,) by the resurrection of Jesus Christ:

Unfortunately many have a religious understanding of 1 Peter 3:18-21.
Christ, in the form of Holy Spirit, is who it was that was preaching through Noah before the flood.

The Age of God's Grace for this world began on Pentecost and is still ongoing, until the Father alone decides that the Age of HIS Grace through Christ shall end.

Mat. 24
[35] Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away.
[36] But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only.
[37] But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming of the Son of man be.

I s'pose if the cup is full, the cup is full.
Interpreting the OT like Christ denying Rabbi's ensures what is needed to be seen is missed.

 

[quietthinker]

It is not a metaphor, it is a pronouncement made by an angel doing a global tour.

there is nothing in the construct or grammar to even vaguely hint it is a metaphor.

But for argument sake what do you think it is a metaphor for and what evidence do you present biblically to support that?

Thanks for the question. Well, it's the third angel. Have you seen or has it been reported in the news of the other two angels flying in mid heaven doing a 'world tour' ?

Angels in this context are metaphors for messengers/messages.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Well we followers of jesus know we are righteous because Jesus is our righteousness and not some list of deeds done.

And if you had read scripture carefully you would know that in the churches would be wheat and weeds until the end. How many churches are rife? Have you done a survey? And how do you know all the bible believing churches pastors are not busy trying to reconcile the sinners to God? Have you called or visited them or are you just making general unknown allegations to paint churches?

Where are the “wheat”? Not in any of the churches of Christendom, who worship a different God to the one Jesus worships even now. After his return to heaven, Jesus still calls his Father, “my God”....but according to Christendom, Jesus IS God......so does he worship himself in heaven? (Rev 3:12)

The churches are not publicly condemning the things that the Bible identifies as unChristian behavior. Any who dare to speak up about such things, are accused of being “anti” something, so they largely remain silent. Is that what Jesus taught us to do?
Allowing these behaviors into their congregations, puts them at odds with the God they claim to worship. His standards do not change.

My assumptions are based on speaking with many church members in my local community, and other communities I have lived in before.
I have been doing my own "survey" for many years.
You forget, that JW's call on people of all faiths, and have been doing so for over 100 years. We are a global family who have removed ourselves from "Babylon the great." Most in Christendom have no idea that they are even trapped in that place. Ask them what "Babylon the great" is....and how they are to obey Revelation 18:4-5. Crickets.....
The great commission (Matthew 28:19-20) is not a recommendation to participate in if you want to....it was a command...it is the will of the Father that, as part of the sign of the end times...."this good news of the Kingdom will be preached in all the inhabited earth for a witness to all the nations, and then the end will come." It is the very basis for judgment....the only "witness" they will get before God brings this entire world system crashing down.

Where are the churches in fulfilling what Jesus commanded?....MIA.

Jesus did not answer with a parable. Yes, one of the truths taught is about teh resurrection, but you miss the bigger lesson jesus was trying to teach the Pharisees:

Jesus answered their parable, or illustration. And he did so according to Jewish scripture....and there is no Jewish scripture that teaches immortality of the soul. It is a Greek adoption, not a Bible teaching at all.

That Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not dead but alive! God is not the God of the dead, but the living. So if we are to believe Jesus at His word, if Abraham< Isaac and Jacob are dead, God is no tlonger their God, for as Jesus said: "God is not the God of the dead, but the living".

Well, since Jesus was Jewish, he would have given the Pharisees the Jewish scriptural view. But we also know that he had nothing good to say about those religious leaders. (Matt 23) Their teachings were full of false doctrines. (Matthew 15:7-9)
Luke's account I believe, clarifies Jesus statement....Luke 20:27...
CSB
He is not the God of the dead but of the living, because all are living to him.”
CEB
He isn’t the God of the dead but of the living. To him they are all alive.”
GW
He’s not the God of the dead but of the living. In God’s sight all people are living.”

So to God, no one is really dead....just "sleeping", waiting for him to awaken them in the resurrection.

John 3:13 tells us very clearly.. “And no one hath ascended into heaven, but he that descended out of heaven, even the Son of man, who is in heaven.” (ASV)

So if no one went to heaven before Jesus.....and the Jews were never taught that they had an immortal soul, where did Abraham, Isaac and Jacob go when they died?
Solomon tells us exactly where they went....and it wasn't to some fictitious place called "Abraham's bosom"....which is merely a position of favor with God.
Eccl 9:5; 10....Solomon wrote....
“For the living know that they will die, but the dead know nothing at all, nor do they have any more reward, because all memory of them is forgotten. . . . Whatever your hand finds to do, do with all your might, for there is no work nor planning nor knowledge nor wisdom in the Grave, [sheol] where you are going.”

“Sheol” is “the grave” according to the Jewish Tanakh.
So the assumption that these men of faith continued to live on in some kind of spirit form, in another realm is Christendom lying to you.

 

[Aunty Jane]

Continued....

YOu err for you do not know the Scriptures.

Apply that to yourself.....you seem clueless outside of Christendom’s party line. Makes me wonder if you have done any Bible study outside of your own limited view. The whole Bible is God's word, not just the isolated verses that seem to confirm your own beliefs.

11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

What do we see here?
“The dead were judged out of the things written” in the book of life.

What two categories of people does Jesus mention in John 5:28-29?
“Do not be amazed at this, for the hour is coming in which all those in the memorial tombs will hear his voice 29 and come out, those who did good things to a resurrection of life, and those who practiced vile things to a resurrection of judgment.”

Can you see? Some are raised to life and others are raised to judgment....so these are “the dead, great and small”, being judged according to their “works”......It’s not a judgment on what they did before they died, because they have ‘paid sin’s wages’ and “at death one is acquitted of sin”. (Rom 6:7, 23) There was no higher penalty under God law than death.....no one was ever tortured or burned as a punishment.
The dead are in "hades" but the incorrigibly wicked are in "gehenna". How anyone can translate these two words to mean the same thing is beyond me. Like "soul" and "spirit"...these are not interchangeable either.

13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

At teh end of trime, the sea, death and the grave will give up the dead in them.

Read it again....”the sea” gave up its dead...but so did “Hell”......so which “hell” is this? It’s “hades”...not “Gehenna”.
And how are these judged? “According to their works”....so what these people “did” was the basis of their judgment, not simply what they said they believed.

The Watchtower has lied to you !

Don’t look now but someone has lied to you, and you are spreading their lies.....will God judge you for that?

It doesn't suggest- it declares! God would do such a thing because He said He would! YOu judge God based on your own finite human emotional state, I believe God when He says He will do something.

It is not in God’s personality to transgress his own perfect sense of justice. It is one of the prime qualities that he passed on to us....part of being “made in God's image”. Since there is no 'immortal soul' to go to a place of conscious existence, any teaching of torment and suffering for a soul after death is a ridiculous lie.....a satanic perpetuation of the first lie he told in Eden....."you surely will not die".

What you are taking literally in Revelation, is metaphorical. The whole book is full of symbolisms.

According to God's word, the laws given to Israel had to have penalties that were in line with the severity of the crime. What purpose did the punishments serve? How many times did God appeal to his people to repent, and when they didn’t’, he punished them with a view to leading them to repentance....isn’t that what parents do to their own children? They don’t punish their children by torturing them for extended periods for minor infractions....the punishment God gave was called “discipline”, and sadly we have lost the ability to discipline our children in today’s world and as a consequence, delinquent children have more rights now than their parents.

In Ezekiel 33, we see God's pleas to his wayward people though his prophet....
"Tell them, ‘“As surely as I am alive,” declares the Sovereign Lord Jehovah, “I take no pleasure in the death of the wicked, but rather that someone wicked changes his way and keeps living. Turn back, turn back from your bad ways, for why should you die, O house of Israel?”’

If God takes no pleasure even in the death of the wicked, why would he then torture them in flames forever?
That is not the God of Jesus Christ, whom he so faithfully represented in his human form on earth.

 

[Earburner]

I s'pose if the cup is full, the cup is full.
Interpreting the OT like Christ denying Rabbi's ensures what is needed to be seen is missed.

That's like saying what you said, but not what you mean.

 

[Ezra]

Not only the living will benefit in the Millennium and have an opportunity for the earthly salvation. Paul speaks of "God our Savior, whose will it is that all men should find salvation and come to know the truth." Those who died without this knowledge must therefore be awakened from the dead if they are to get it. All of us have relatives and friends who died without being "saved", in the sense that they did not exercise faith in Jesus as their Savior and gain the heavenly inheritance. From the broader standpoint we realize that most of earth's millions since the creation of man never even heard of Jesus, and would appear to be lost forever, since "Salvation is to be found through him alone; in all the world there is no one else whom God has given who can save us" (Acts 4:12). Many Christians have been taught that all opportunity for attaining eternal life is limited strictly to the present life, which logically implies that the redeeming work of Jesus was a failure, since the vast majority of mankind would then be lost. The Bible does not support this dismal conclusion.

The ransom paid by Jesus guarantees release from Adamic death for every one of the human race. "As in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive." It may seem incredible that the dead will live again, but with God, all things are possible. Jesus said, "Don't be so surprised! Indeed the time is coming when the dead in their graves shall hear the voice of God's son, and shall rise again" (John 5:28,29). The implications of the awakening of the dead are immense, but abundant Bible testimony can be found as to God's plan to restore the human family, and the great adventure is soon to begin.

if you die Lost with out Christ there is NO second chance

 

[Aunty Jane]

All, after the judgment of Adam, do die. However, all who have died without having faith in Jesus, have been judged ALREADY unto condemnation (eternal death), which is the 2nd death. KJV John 3:18.

Tell me how that works if people did not know of Jesus until 4000 years after Adam's sin? Would God condemn people for failing to do something they never knew about? How would that be just?

John 3:18...
"Whoever exercises faith in him is not to be judged. Whoever does not exercise faith has been judged already, because he has not exercised faith in the name of the only-begotten Son of God."
It is hard to exercise faith in someone you have never heard of....so from the time that Jesus laid down his life for humanity, those are the people who have had every opportunity to come to know Jehovah and his son. It is therefore just if they reject him and receive the stated punishment....they knew better.

The proof of that is Rom. 8:9, Phillippians 4:3 and Rev. 20:15. Absolutely no one is going to get into the KoG/Heaven by performing good works alone.

Rev 20:15...
"Furthermore, whoever was not found written in the book of life was hurled into the lake of fire."
The "second death" unlike Adamic death is irreversible. So, yes those in Gehenna will never be seen again.

When Jesus likened the days of his return to "the days of Noah", can we see the parallel?
What was the situation back then that forced Jehovah to act so decisively and destroy every living thing outside of the ark?

The morality of the people had been so badly corrupted that all they thought about was evil. This was due to direct interference from the demons. So finding only one man of genuine faith among that wicked generation, God proceeded to instruct Noah on how to save himself and all the animals species that God would bring to him once the ark was completed. God did not save Noah but instructed him about how to save himself and others.

2 Peter 2:5 calls Noah a "preacher of righteousness" so all the while he was constructing the ark, he was warning the people of God's intentions, and the reason for his building project which was a colossal undertaking for one man, since at that time Noah had no children.

Jesus said that the people in our time would be just like the the people who mocked Noah.....taking no notice of the warning and ridiculing him for what he was doing. (2 Peter 3:3-7)

There are NO second chances!!

This is why Jesus said we must preach his message about the Kingdom.....it is the "good news" that people long for....everlasting life restored to mankind in paradise on earth, just as God purposed in the beginning.....but unless they respond to the truth instead of being shackled by the false doctrines of Christendom, (the weeds sown by the devil) they will be lost forever....fooled by a convincing counterfeit.

Satan will take as many with him into 'the lake of fire' as he can....Ironically, they will precede him. He will be reserved in an abyss of complete inactivity whilst Jesus and his elect bring redeemed mankind back to Adam's original perfection, eradicating sin and death forever. Only then will satan be released for one last test, then he will join the wicked in Gehenna....never to be seen again. (Rev 20:1-3)

Rev 21:2-4 is the outcome....

"I also saw the holy city, New Jerusalem, coming down out of heaven from God and prepared as a bride adorned for her husband. 3 With that I heard a loud voice from the throne say: “Look! The tent of God is with mankind, and he will reside with them, and they will be his people. And God himself will be with them. 4 And he will wipe out every tear from their eyes, and death will be no more, neither will mourning nor outcry nor pain be anymore. The former things have passed away.”

This is what those in God's "Book of Life" can look forward to....

 

[quietthinker]

That's like saying what you said, but not what you mean.

The whole objective of God's communication with humanity is Jesus. Without seeing this, and learning to interpret it that way, scripture becomes a riddle that any man and his dog can interpret according to their preference.

The disciples never saw this in the three odd years of their association with him. They were so convinced they had the right angle they never heard him when he told them many times, he was going to die. It was only after the resurrection needed to be in their face .....and spending another forty day with the resurrected Jesus that the penny dropped.

The same principle applies for Christians today. They have the book but misunderstand it's objective.
They dance in the isles, have great flourishes on the spirit yet are consumed with self. Jesus become a name/word to rubber stamp their muddled views.

 

[Patrick1966]

Everyone will be saved - eventually.

1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. . . ”

Titus 2:11
English Standard Version
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

 

[Earburner]

Everyone will be saved - eventually.

1 Timothy 4:10 ESV
“For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe. . . ”

Titus 2:11
English Standard Version
11 For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation for all people.

Wow! Unfortunately for your understanding, that IS NOT what those verses in 1 Tim. and Titus are saying or mean.

Yes, Jesus has been ordained by God the Father to be the Savior FOR ALL people, BUT NOT MANY COME TO HIM. KJV John 3:18.

Yes, the Grace of God THROUGH JESUS, who is The Gospel Himself, bringing and BEING the salvation of ALL people, [WHO BELIEVE]. KJV Rom. 8:8-9.
All of such are called "the nations of them which are saved", meaning individual believers from out of the many nations who ARE unsaved.

KJV Rev. 21:24

 

[ChristisGod]

Why don't you enlighten me with scripture and reason.

Here are plenty of Biblical reasons. Let me know if you need another 25 to 50 more reasons .

The bible is very clear that there is eternal torment for the wicked. They will have a conscious existence in the afterlife.

Mark 9:42-48
42 "And if anyone causes one of these little ones who believe in me to sin, it would be better for him to be thrown into the sea with a large millstone tied around his neck. 43 If your hand causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life maimed than with two hands to go into hell, where the fire never goes out. 45 And if your foot causes you to sin, cut it off. It is better for you to enter life crippled than to have two feet and be thrown into hell. 47 And if your eye causes you to sin, pluck it out. It is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye than to have two eyes and be thrown into hell, 48 where

"'their worm does not die,
and the fire is not quenched.'

Matthew 8:11-13
11 "I say to you that many will come from east and west, and recline at the table with Abraham, Isaac and Jacob in the kingdom of heaven; 12 but the sons of the kingdom will be cast out into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth."

Matthew 13:41-43
41 "The Son of Man will send forth His angels, and they will gather out of His kingdom all stumbling blocks, and those who commit lawlessness, 42 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth. 43 "Then THE RIGHTEOUS WILL SHINE FORTH AS THE SUN in the kingdom of their Father. He who has ears, let him hear.

Matthew 13:49-50
49 "So it will be at the end of the age; the angels will come forth and take out the wicked from among the righteous, 50 and will throw them into the furnace of fire; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 22:13-14
"Then the king said to the servants, 'Bind him hand and foot, and throw him into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.' 14 "For many are called, but few are chosen."

Matthew 24:48-51
48 "But if that evil slave says in his heart, 'My master is not coming for a long time,' 49 and begins to beat his fellow slaves and eat and drink with drunkards; 50 the master of that slave will come on a day when he does not expect him and at an hour which he does not know, 51 and will cut him in pieces and assign him a place with the hypocrites; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

Matthew 25:29-30
29 "For to everyone who has, more shall be given, and he will have an abundance; but from the one who does not have, even what he does have shall be taken away. 30 "Throw out the worthless slave into the outer darkness; in that place there will be weeping and gnashing of teeth.

2 Peter 2:1-9
But there were also false prophets among the people, just as there will be false teachers among you. They will secretly introduce destructive heresies, even denying the sovereign Lord who bought them — bringing swift destruction on themselves. 2 Many will follow their shameful ways and will bring the way of truth into disrepute. 3 In their greed these teachers will exploit you with stories they have made up. Their condemnation has long been hanging over them, and their destruction has not been sleeping.

4 For if God did not spare angels when they sinned, but sent them to hell, putting them into gloomy dungeons to be held for judgment; 5 if he did not spare the ancient world when he brought the flood on its ungodly people, but protected Noah, a preacher of righteousness, and seven others; 6 if he condemned the cities of Sodom and Gomorrah by burning them to ashes, and made them an example of what is going to happen to the ungodly; 7 and if he rescued Lot, a righteous man, who was distressed by the filthy lives of lawless men 8 (for that righteous man, living among them day after day, was tormented in his righteous soul by the lawless deeds he saw and heard)— 9 if this is so, then the Lord knows how to rescue godly men from trials and to hold the unrighteous for the day of judgment, while continuing their punishment.


Jude 4-7, 12-13
4 For certain men whose condemnation was written about long ago have secretly slipped in among you. They are godless men, who change the grace of our God into a license for immorality and deny Jesus Christ our only Sovereign and Lord.

5 Though you already know all this, I want to remind you that the Lord delivered his people out of Egypt, but later destroyed those who did not believe. 6 And the angels who did not keep their positions of authority but abandoned their own home — these he has kept in darkness, bound with everlasting chains for judgment on the great Day. 7 In a similar way, Sodom and Gomorrah and the surrounding towns gave themselves up to sexual immorality and perversion. They serve as an example of those who suffer the punishment of eternal fire.

12 These men are blemishes at your love feasts, eating with you without the slightest qualm — shepherds who feed only themselves. They are clouds without rain, blown along by the wind; autumn trees, without fruit and uprooted — twice dead. 13 They are wild waves of the sea, foaming up their shame; wandering stars, for whom blackest darkness has been reserved forever.

Revelation 21:8
8 But the cowardly, the unbelieving, the vile, the murderers, the sexually immoral, those who practice magic arts, the idolaters and all liars — their place will be in the fiery lake of burning sulfur. This is the second death."

Revelation 19:20-21
20 But the beast was captured, and with him the false prophet who had performed the miraculous signs on his behalf. With these signs he had deluded those who had received the mark of the beast and worshiped his image. The two of them were thrown alive into the fiery lake of burning sulfur.

Revelation 20:10
10 And the devil, who deceived them, was thrown into the lake of burning sulfur, where the beast and the false prophet had been thrown. They will be tormented day and night for ever and ever.

Revelation 20:12-15
12 And I saw the dead, great and small, standing before the throne, and books were opened. Another book was opened, which is the book of life. The dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. 13 The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what he had done. 14 Then death and Hades were thrown into The lake of fire is the second death. 15 If anyone's name was not found written in the book of life, he was thrown into the lake of fire.

Scripture uses these terms and phrases as synonyms:

Unquenchable fire
Fiery hell
Black darkness
Outer darkness
Furnace of fire
Fire and brimstone
The smoke of their torment
The lake of fire which burns with brimstone
Where their worm does not die and the fire is not quenched
The eternal fire which has been prepared for the devil and his angels

All of the above carry the same meaning and consequences for the wicked.


hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

Why don't you enlighten me with scripture and reason.

Just in case you want more evidence and my previous post was not enough scripture and reason for you, here ya go !

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Got ?

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philem 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, Rom 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Peter 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Cor 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt 25:46; Titus 1:2. Vines

hope this helps !!!

 

[Patrick1966]

Wow! Unfortunately for your understanding, that IS NOT what those verses in 1 Tim. and Titus are saying or mean.

Yes, Jesus has been ordained by God the Father to be the Savior FOR ALL people, BUT NOT MANY COME TO HIM. KJV John 3:18.

Yes, the Grace of God THROUGH JESUS, who is The Gospel Himself, bringing and BEING the salvation of ALL people, [WHO BELIEVE]. KJV Rom. 8:8-9.
All of such are called "the nations of them which are saved", meaning individual believers from out of the many nations who ARE unsaved.

KJV Rev. 21:24

Not all will go to Jesus but God will nevertheless save them in the end, but through fire.

 

[Patrick1966]

Just in case you want more evidence and my previous post was not enough scripture and reason for you, here ya go !

The punishment of the wicked dead in hell is described throughout Scripture as “eternal fire” (Matthew 25:41), “unquenchable fire” (Matthew 3:12), “shame and everlasting contempt” (Daniel 12:2), a place where “the fire is not quenched” (Mark 9:44-49), a place of “torment” and “fire” (Luke 16:23-24), “everlasting destruction” (2 Thessalonians 1:9), a place where “the smoke of torment rises forever and ever” (Revelation 14:10-11), and a “lake of burning sulfur” where the wicked are “tormented day and night forever and ever” (Revelation 20:10).

The punishment of the wicked in hell is as never ending as the bliss of the righteous in heaven. Jesus Himself indicates that punishment in hell is just as everlasting as life in heaven (Matthew 25:46). The wicked are forever subject to the fury and the wrath of God. Those in hell will acknowledge the perfect justice of God (Psalm 76:10). Those who are in hell will know that their punishment is just and that they alone are to blame (Deuteronomy 32:3-5). Yes, hell is real. Yes, hell is a place of torment and punishment that lasts forever and ever, with no end. Got ?

"The predominant meaning of aionios, that in which it is used everywhere in the NT, save the places noted above, may be seen in 2 Cor 4:18, where it is set in contrast with proskairos, lit., 'for a season,' and in Philem 15, where only in the NT it is used without a noun. Moreover it is used of persons and things which are in their nature endless, as, e. g., of God, Rom 16:26; of His power, 1 Tim 6:16, and of His glory, 1 Peter 5:10; of the Holy Spirit, Heb 9:14; of the redemption effected by Christ, Heb 9:12, and of the consequent salvation of men, 5:9, as well as of His future rule, 2 Peter 1:11, which is elsewhere declared to be without end, Luke 1:33; of the life received by those who believe in Christ, John 3:16, concerning whom He said, 'they shall never perish,' 10:28, and of the resurrection body, 2 Cor 5:1, elsewhere said to be 'immortal,' 1 Cor 15:53, in which that life will be finally realized, Matt 25:46; Titus 1:2. Vines

hope this helps !!!

 

[ChristisGod]

Thanks for responding but I'm not into videos as an apologetic on forums. I want to discuss things with the posters and not watch videos. I want to engage your argument not someone else's arguments.

hope this helps !!!

 

[GRACE ambassador]

Not all will go to Jesus but God will nevertheless save them in the end, but through fire.

Scripture has no 'universal salvation' God saving us as if we were robots. = You have
your 'fires' Mixed Up:

1) All believers in the Body Of Christ, Saved By Grace Through faith in The
Precious BLOOD Of Christ, and In His Resurrection, are 'co-laborers With God,'
and, at our Judgment, those with "bad works" will have them "burned up."
- 1Co 3:8-15, note vs. 13 and 15

"Every man's work shall be made manifest: for The Day Shall Declare it,​

because it Shall Be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's​

work of what sort it is....If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer​

loss: but he himself Shall Be saved; yet so as by fire." = ETERNAL Life! ​

Rightly Divided (2 Timothy 2:15) From “Things That Differ” (online)

2) All UNbelievers are NOT 'co-laborers With God', but are AGAINST God, saying:

"we WILL NOT have This Man Rule over us." Why would a LOVING God "Force" them
AGAINST their will, [robots?] to be saved? Thus, their Judgment, From The HOLY,
Righteous, and JUST God, Judgment of fire is here = Rev 20:11-15:

​

"And I saw a Great White Throne, and Him that sat on it, from Whose Face the​

earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. And​

I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened:​

​

and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were​

judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their​

works.​

​

And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered​

up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according​

to their works. And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is​

​

The Second Death.​

​

And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the ​

lake of fire." = "Separation AWAY From God" = ETERNAL Death! = ​

​

NOT "Saved Unto ETERNAL Life to Be WITH God!!"​

Conclusion:

1) God Teaches, In Scripture, A Vast Difference between "LIFE And death!"

2) Please never ever Mix Up the two Different 'fires' In Scripture, causing Confusion, ok?
-----------------------------
Grace, Peace, And JOY In Christ, And In His Word Of Truth, Rightly
Divided!