Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[Philip James]

Hey Philip James
So many love that quote in John.
1 John 2:19 to be precise.

You should study up on that verse.
John was very concerned about gnostics when he wrote that
and he believed they had already invaded the church.
Check it out.

Gnostics may have been the first to bastardize the deposit of faith and abandon the comunnity of the apostles but they certainly werent the last.

I find it truly astonishing how many of the heresies long since repudiated are rearing their ugly heads these days...
Signs of the times...

Peace be with you!

 

[GodsGrace]

However, this is not what baptism means within the Bible. This is the Catholic spin on baptism -- baptismal justification and regeneration.

E,
We've been through this before and I hate to repeat.

For the benefit of those reading along:

1. What do YOU think baptism is?

2. The Catholic Church believes a person is saved by grace through faith.
Ephesians 2:8 just like we do.

What happens is immediately after progressive justification, or sanctification, begins and that's where works/deeds come into the picture.
Ephesians 2:10

As to baptism saving: It does NOT save unless a Catholic person ACCEPTS that gift of baptism at some point in their life.

If YOU were right,,,it would mean that EVERY CATHOLIC is going to heaven because they've all been baptized.

 

[brakelite]

Yes Aspen...
There is salvation outside the CC.

And CCC no. 1271 proves it:

1271 Baptism constitutes the foundation of communion among all Christians, including those who are not yet in full communion with the Catholic Church: "For men who believe in Christ and have been properly baptized are put in some, though imperfect, communion with the Catholic Church. Justified by faith in Baptism, [they] are incorporated into Christ; they therefore have a right to be called Christians, and with good reason are accepted as brothers by t he children of the Catholic Church." "Baptism therefore constitutes the sacramental bond of unity existing among all who through it are reborn."

Justified by faith in baptism???? I thought our faith was in Christ?

 

[GodsGrace]

Justified by faith in baptism???? I thought our faith was in Christ?

LIsten to me BL,,,,
The CC teaches (today) that we are saved by grace through faith.
You're just going to have to believe me on this.
That church does hold baptism to be very important because of Mr. Augustine...but he is being a bit rejected these days by some...but some still think he's the brain of the CC. I don't care for him, personally for me.

Did you see post 22?
Doesn't this make sense to you?

 

[brakelite]

Is there salvation outside of the Catholic church?

Yes, but only if the Pope says so.

 

[brakelite]

LIsten to me BL,,,,
The CC teaches (today) that we are saved by grace through faith.
You're just going to have to believe me on this.
That church does hold baptism to be very important because of Mr. Augustine...but he is being a bit rejected these days by some...but some still think he's the brain of the CC. I don't care for him, personally for me.

Did you see post 22?
Doesn't this make sense to you?

GG, partaking of the sacraments is essential to salvation according to the CC.

 

[GodsGrace]

GG, partaking of the sacraments is essential to salvation according to the CC. View attachment 6942

Partaking of the sacraments helps you to live a good life...they impart grace.
Grace needed to walk by the spirit and not by the flesh.

I don't know where you got that page that you posted...
It sounds like something from the Council of Trent.
You should show your source ....
If you want to believe what the CC taught 500 years ago, you're welcome to it.
I'm telling you what they teach TODAY...
and I know what they teach today because I've done it.

 

[brakelite]

Partaking of the sacraments helps you to live a good life...they impart grace.
Grace needed to walk by the spirit and not by the flesh.

I don't know where you got that page that you posted...
It sounds like something from the Council of Trent.
You should show your souce ....
If you want to believe what the CC taught 500 years ago, you're welcome to it.
I'm telling you what they teach TODAY...
and I know what they teach today because I've done it.

If they've changed basic dogma they would be contradicting their own claims to infallibility. And you and I both know they will never do that... So any appearance of a change in basic dogma is a pretence and nothing more. Just as the agreement on justification by faith between Lutherans and Catholics was a pretence. Smoke and mirrors.

 

[Enoch111]

1. What do YOU think baptism is?

It is definitely not what the CC believes it to be.

 

[GodsGrace]

If they've changed basic dogma they would be contradicting their own claims to infallibility. And you and I both know they will never do that... So any appearance of a change in basic dogma is a pretence and nothing more. Just as the agreement on justification by faith between Lutherans and Catholics was a pretence. Smoke and mirrors.

I get your point BL,,,
But what I told you is what I was told to teach.
The Lutheran-Catholic justification we could discuss but it gets complicated....
I'm not even catholic anymore.

 

[GodsGrace]

It is definitely not what the CC believes it to be.

Well, I'll say this.

They believe it to be much more than we protestants believe it to be.
And they do NOT believe baptism saves everyone that gets baptized.

To Catholics baptism is a real happening and not just an indication of some interior change. They believe it CAUSES a change...it's called a mark, or character.

It's spoken of in length in the CCC starting at about 1260 or so.

 

[Enoch111]

I'm telling you what they teach TODAY...

Obviously someone has got you fooled. Nothing has changed since the Council of Trent, since they quote it copiously in their Catechism (CCC). So you've now come under their spell. But check out all the footnotes in the CCC and tells if Trent is not quoted on almost every page.

Your quote from their Catechism trying to show us that they accept the salvation of those outside the CC was totally misleading. But the very wording of that quote is THEIR FALSE DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMAL REGENERATION. It has nothing to do with how Christians are saved outside the CC. But it sure fools people, and now you are going along with the idea that the CC has changed. Ask any Catholic and they will tell you it is just the opposite. Their beliefs (according to them) are the only true beliefs going for 2000 years.

 

[Episkopos]

Salvation is only found in Jesus Christ...not in any church. We never become the owners of salvation to dispense it by our efforts. We never have the riches in Christ for ourselves....they are only found in Him.

 

[GodsGrace]

Obviously someone has got you fooled. Nothing has changed since the Council of Trent, since they quote it copiously in their Catechism (CCC). So you've now come under their spell. But check out all the footnotes in the CCC and tells if Trent is not quoted on almost every page.

Your quote from their Catechism trying to show us that they accept the salvation of those outside the CC was totally misleading. But the very wording of that quote is THEIR FALSE DOCTRINE OF BAPTISMAL REGENERATION. It has nothing to do with how Christians are saved outside the CC. But it sure fools people, and now you are going along with the idea that the CC has changed. Ask any Catholic and they will tell you it is just the opposite. Their beliefs (according to them) are the only true beliefs going for 2000 years.

Enoch....
Have you been to Mass lately?
Have you been to a Catholic bible study?

Most catholics don't even know what you're talking about if you mention doctrine.
They're told that doctrine can't change...well surprise...it has.

But believe what you will...
I'm not here to explain the CC to anyone...

And is it any wonder @BreadOfLife is so frustrated.

I must say that I trust my local friendly priests, and one that just left seminary...more than anything YOU say and more than anything the CCC states...it IS from TWENTY SEVEN years ago. If you think nothing has changed...join the ranks of all the fooled Catholics that also think nothing has changed.

 

[brakelite]

Enoch....
Have you been to Mass lately?
Have you been to a Catholic bible study?

Most catholics don't even know what you're talking about if you mention doctrine.
They're told that doctrine can't change...well surprise...it has.

But believe what you will...
I'm not here to explain the CC to anyone...

And is it any wonder @BreadOfLife is so frustrated.

I must say that I trust my local friendly priests, and one that just left seminary...more than anything YOU say and more than anything the CCC states...it IS from TWENTY SEVEN years ago. If you think nothing has changed...join the ranks of all the fooled Catholics that also think nothing has changed.

I think the only thing that has changed is the major publicity campaign now in progress which is winning protestants to their ranks. In fact, it is likely the longest publicity campaign in history instigated by any institution. Some call it the counter reformation.

 

[GodsGrace]

I think the only thing that has changed is the major publicity campaign now in progress which is winning protestants to their ranks. In fact, it is likely the longest publicity campaign in history instigated by any institution. Some call it the counter reformation.

I don't know about this since I live here.
However, the new Bishop down in the city and in charge of this whole area has told the priests that he wants to try "something new" in 2020 because the church is losing all the young adults. They either really don't know what he's going to do,,or they've been told not to speak about it. There is one priest that MIGHT tell me, but I haven't seen him all summer.

I think, if you want to know my two cents, that what is winning some over to the Catholic church is that there isn't all this bickering and disagreeing that goes on with us. This does not mean that all priests believe the same, although they have to preach the same...so this is rather hypocritical in my opinion,,,but that IS what seems to attract Protestants.

A very prominent Protestant joined the Orthodox church about 2 years ago,,,it made big news.

I mean, think about it. @"ByGrace" was saying that we could come to a mutual agreement if we discuss....how could that be? She believes in eternal security and I believe in conditional eternal security. We both cannot be right. MAYBE we DO need a church with intelligent theologians that can tell us which is correct?

 

[brakelite]

MAYBE we DO need a church with intelligent theologians that can tell us which is correct?

Oh, the church would just love to hear that. If you want to surrender your eternal destiny into the hands of man, that's your business. My faith is in God's ability to teach me through His word, prayer, providence. I wouldn't trust even the brightest of theologians, regardless of how many letters after his name.

 

[bbyrd009]

Willie, Does authority play a role in your faith? I believe God uses human authority....

listen to them, and give them a king
so yeh i guess so huh
1 Corinthians 15:24 Lexicon: then comes the end, when He hands over the kingdom to the God and Father, when He has abolished all rule and all authority and power.

 

[bbyrd009]

I don't know about this since I live here.
However, the new Bishop down in the city and in charge of this whole area has told the priests that he wants to try "something new" in 2020 because the church is losing all the young adults. They either really don't know what he's going to do,,or they've been told not to speak about it. There is one priest that MIGHT tell me, but I haven't seen him all summer.

I think, if you want to know my two cents, that what is winning some over to the Catholic church is that there isn't all this bickering and disagreeing that goes on with us. This does not mean that all priests believe the same, although they have to preach the same...so this is rather hypocritical in my opinion,,,but that IS what seems to attract Protestants.

A very prominent Protestant joined the Orthodox church about 2 years ago,,,it made big news.

I mean, think about it. @"ByGrace" was saying that we could come to a mutual agreement if we discuss....how could that be? She believes in eternal security and I believe in conditional eternal security. We both cannot be right. MAYBE we DO need a church with intelligent theologians that can tell us which is correct?

hi GG!
yeh, Prots all just want a king to fight their battles too i guess

 

[Philip James]

Salvation is only found in Jesus Christ...not in any church

Hello Episkopos,

Christ and His church are one. And what God has joined together, no man can separarte.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!