Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

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amadeus

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Hello aspen,

To answer the thread title question:

No, but Jesus alone knows who is and who is not a member of the one holy catholic and apostolic Church.

There's an old Orthodox saying that I like very much: ' one can say with assurance where the Church is, but not where it not.'

Peace be with you!

Christ IS risen!
Alleluia!
I have no problem with that my friend, but we should also understand that just being a formal member of the visible organized Church bearing the name Catholic is no assurance of salvation. Just because we jump on the train does not mean the conductor won't insist on confirming the validity of our ticket.
 

amadeus

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Hello Episkopos,

Christ and His church are one. And what God has joined together, no man can separarte.

You too! Are welcome to come to the wedding feast of the Lamb of God!

Peace be with you!

Christ is risen!
Alleluia!
In a very real sense the Bible agrees. The Body of Christ is the Church which consists of a Head which is Jesus and a Body which the Church. Jesus only the Head. He too is incomplete without the Body, which we are to be, the place with Jesus will be able to lay His Head [that is, himself]:

"And Jesus saith unto him, The foxes have holes, and the birds of the air have nests; but the Son of man hath not where to lay his head." Matt 8:20

But He will before it is all said and done. The question for us is will we be a part of His Body... or not?

"And hath put all things under his feet, and gave him to be the head over all things to the church,
Which is his body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all." Eph 1:22-23
 

BreadOfLife

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So let’s stop tap dancing BOL...are all these Christians here, just pretending? Are they taking the Eucharist improperly and therefore doomed? And if so in your mind, why do you care what they say about Catholicism? Why are you Hellbent on molesting the Goats?

“Smithers! release the hounds”
ALL who are saved are saved BY the grace of God BY the blood of Christ - but they are saved THROUGH the Church.

If you're trying to get me to say that only Catholics will go to Heaven - you're barking up the wrong tree. The Church doesn't teach this.
 

BreadOfLife

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Enoch....
Have you been to Mass lately?
Have you been to a Catholic bible study?

Most catholics don't even know what you're talking about if you mention doctrine.
They're told that doctrine can't change...well surprise...it has.

But believe what you will...
I'm not here to explain the CC to anyone...

And is it any wonder @BreadOfLife is so frustrated.

I must say that I trust my local friendly priests, and one that just left seminary...more than anything YOU say and more than anything the CCC states...it IS from TWENTY SEVEN years ago. If you think nothing has changed...join the ranks of all the fooled Catholics that also think nothing has changed.
And then you get upset when I catch you in a LIE and expose you for it.

The Catholic Church has NEVER changed a single doctrine in it's 2000+ year history - not ONE.
As long as you keep repeating this lie - I'll keep exposing you for it . . .
 

Philip James

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I have no problem with that my friend, but we should also understand that just being a formal member of the visible organized Church bearing the name Catholic is no assurance of salvation. Just because we jump on the train does not mean the conductor won't insist on confirming the validity of our ticket.

Indeed,
One has to live their faith, walking in the power of the Holy Spirit and the Grace of God.
Growing into the perfection of love of Him who is love,
Repenting of our stumbles,
Allowing Him to wash our feet and cleanse our hearts, then we can indeed boldly approach the throne of Grace, through the veil that is HIS flesh, being united with HIM and through HIM with one another,
Offering with one mind and one voice and one heart, thanksgiving and praise, yes even our very selves to our Father,
With Jesus, through Jesus, and in Jesus, in the unity of the Holy Spirit, all glory and honour to our Father forever and ever! Amen!

Peace be with you!
 
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BreadOfLife

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BOL, could you please expand on this statement.
Jesus didn't leave a book or set of written instructions behind to teach the world and lead them to Christ. He left a Church, which the Scriptures refer to as:

- The Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- The FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).

Jesus established ONE Church (Matt. 16:16-19). He prayed fervently that this Church remain ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).
Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).

Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
He gave the Church supreme Authority on earth and whatever it ordains on earth is also ordained in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).

Ultimately - EVERY person who is born again in Christ has come to this knowledge because of His Church. That is what is meant by being saved through His Church.


 

Waiting on him

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Jesus didn't leave a book or set of written instructions behind to teach the world and lead them to Christ. He left a Church, which the Scriptures refer to as:

- The Pillar and Foundation of Truth (1 Tim. 3:15).
- The Body of Christ and He is the Head (1 Cor. 12:12-31, Eph. 4:3-6, Col. 1:8).
- The FULLNESS of Christ (Eph. 1:22-23).

Jesus established ONE Church (Matt. 16:16-19). He prayed fervently that this Church remain ONE - as He and the Father are ONE (John 17:20-23).
Jesus promised His Church that the Holy Spirit would guide her to ALL Truth (John 16:12-15).

Jesus identifies His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
He gave the Church supreme Authority on earth and whatever it ordains on earth is also ordained in heaven (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 20:21-23).

Ultimately - EVERY person who is born again in Christ has come to this knowledge because of His Church. That is what is meant by being saved through His Church.

So do you accept Protestants as being part of the universal church?
 

Reggie Belafonte

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I grew up Catholic, and identified as such well into my twenties. I knew many wonderful people in that church who lived 100% according to the light they had...I am positive God accepts them as much as any other. The same applies to all denominations.
My concern regarding the Catholic church lies in the Vatican's long established belief that only in the Catholic church can any be saved, coupled with their political aspirations for global hegemony. Europe suffered terribly at the hands of papal dominion during the dark ages. The Bible loudly proclaims throughout prophecy that there is coming a global union of church and state that enforces religious laws upon the whole world, and in some manner forbids buying and selling unless one complies. Finally, there is a death sentence pronounce upon all dissenters.
Looking now at current world events and the direction the Vatican is heading, or has been heading throughout the last 3 or 4 papal heads, and how Francis in particular, in complete harmony with his predecessors, is actively seeking to be the leader in the coming NWO, one can be fully justified in applying the biblical warnings about the mark of the beast and the Antichrist to the present Jesuit led push for global dominion, and the inevitable resulting persecutions against those who refuse to go along with it.
I would say that Pope Frances is way out of line with them last Popes.
I have read what Pope JP II and all that Pope Ben was going on about with such and all what he has said when he was a Cardinal, they were not on about what Pope Frances is on about at all as that position has totally changed, as it's not the same thing at all.
Pope Frances is coming from the Jesuit position and they are rat bags, who clearly do not believe in Jesus Christ but a god who is the same god as Islam and the Jews worship = Satan !

One only has to look at the media nowadays they were always sniping and telling total lies about the other Popes full on and now surprise surprise they love this Satanic great twat and that's a fact. now they are all abiding in grovelling to Pope Frances.

It was always attack attack from the media 24/7 and nothing but foolish simple minded lies and now I am just amazed how the media idolise this Pope, be it morning day shows or the mid day shows they always attacked what a Pope said, not that they truly knew what the subject was all about, but what they in ignorance only believed that it was, to now they are all crawling up to him just like a mongrel dog. not to mention it's the same with the British Monarchy nowadays it's all crawl crawl crawl, when before it was all bag bag bag.

Thing is if one does the correct thing as to God don't be surprised that you will be hounded for it, but start piddling crap and they will love you.

I seen on a show that we have now that called Who are you, it goes into ones family tree and you see that the person who finds out that one of their forefathers was a grub, that they are thrilled about this or that they came from Convict stock then they are over the moon with this nonsense and wear this as a badge of honour. not to mention that some fool finds out that they are
 

aspen

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ALL who are saved are saved BY the grace of God BY the blood of Christ - but they are saved THROUGH the Church.

If you're trying to get me to say that only Catholics will go to Heaven - you're barking up the wrong tree. The Church doesn't teach this.

I am not trying to get you to say anything. I am trying to find out what you believe
 

Enoch111

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ALL who are saved are saved BY the grace of God BY the blood of Christ - but they are saved THROUGH the Church.
"Through the Church means "through the Catholic Church" since the Bible does not say that anyone is saved "through the Church" (the Body of Christ). This is a distinctly Catholic teaching, and includes Mary's role as Mother of the Church and Mediatrix (see below).
If you're trying to get me to say that only Catholics will go to Heaven - you're barking up the wrong tree. The Church doesn't teach this.
Therefore this statement contradicts the above. I won't resort to calling BOL a liar (since he is presenting the RCC position), but you just contradicted yourself. So everyone can draw their own conclusions.

CATECHISM
816

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

968

Her [Mary's] role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."

969
"This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."
 
B

brakelite

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"Through the Church means "through the Catholic Church" since the Bible does not say that anyone is saved "through the Church" (the Body of Christ). This is a distinctly Catholic teaching, and includes Mary's role as Mother of the Church and Mediatrix (see below).

Therefore this statement contradicts the above. I won't resort to calling BOL a liar (since he is presenting the RCC position), but you just contradicted yourself. So everyone can draw their own conclusions.

CATECHISM
816

The Second Vatican Council's Decree on Ecumenism explains: "For it is through Christ's Catholic Church alone, which is the universal help toward salvation, that the fullness of the means of salvation can be obtained. It was to the apostolic college alone, of which Peter is the head, that we believe that our Lord entrusted all the blessings of the New Covenant, in order to establish on earth the one Body of Christ into which all those should be fully incorporated who belong in any way to the People of God."

968

Her [Mary's] role in relation to the Church and to all humanity goes still further. "In a wholly singular way she cooperated by her obedience, faith, hope, and burning charity in the Savior's work of restoring supernatural life to souls. For this reason she is a mother to us in the order of grace."

969
"This motherhood of Mary in the order of grace continues uninterruptedly from the consent which she loyally gave at the Annunciation and which she sustained without wavering beneath the cross, until the eternal fulfilment of all the elect. Taken up to heaven she did not lay aside this saving office but by her manifold intercession continues to bring us the gifts of eternal salvation .... Therefore the Blessed Virgin is invoked in the Church under the titles of Advocate, Helper, Benefactress, and Mediatrix."
Which is why the CC is known as the Antichrist... In place of Christ. And Mary is just one of many rabbit holes within the Catholic religious framework that effectually removes the mediatorial role of Christ and tramples it into the dust.
 
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Grams

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When I was Catholic I was not saved .......

Not till I went to a bible church.....
 
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brakelite

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When I was Catholic I was not saved .......

Not till I went to a bible church.....
You don't think God is so merciful and gracious that he would not accept that you lived fully in accordance to the best light you had at the time? That He led you elsewhere may not have been to save you, but to enlighten you more to where you stood. And He is still calling His people to "come out of her".
 
B

brakelite

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The Wonder is not that there are saved people outside of the Catholic church, but that there are saved people within her. Despite her.

Even God says that He has people still in Babylon. But He calls them out. There's danger in remaining.
 

Grailhunter

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If having a boogieman adds strength to your faith...more power to ya. But as far as the Antichrist...now a days, the main threat to Christianity is communism and Islam. Then again if you are not going to condemn a church that preaches that God is a merciless bloodthirsty monster, how can you point fingers at the Catholic Church. The Vatican just does not have the power to do much of anything and the Catholic people have no desire for world domination. Then as it is conspiracy theorists live in their own world. Even thou it does not make any sense to condemn the United States and Europe because they are our last front against communism....... and under that rule you will not have the right to have a religion.

Maybe we need to start a thread of all the religions that think only their religion saves. There are a few of them. No matter how you cut it, all Protestant religions are relatively new. And it is kinda silly when they try to say until their religion was founded that no one was saved and even sillier when they try to play god and look in the past to determine who was saved and who was not. The Gospel of Christ saves and will stand up against any denomination that tries to play god.
 
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GodsGrace

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If having a boogieman adds strength to your faith...more power to ya. But as far as the Antichrist...now a days, the main threat to Christianity is communism and Islam. Then again if you are not going to condemn a church that preaches that God is a merciless bloodthirsty monster, how can you point fingers at the Catholic Church. The Vatican just does not have the power to do much of anything and the Catholic people have no desire for world domination. Then as it is conspiracy theorists live in their own world. Even thou it does not make any sense to condemn the United States and Europe because they are our last front against communism....... and under that rule you will not have the right to have a religion.

Maybe we need to start a thread of all the religions that think only their religion saves. There are a few of them. No matter how you cut it, all Protestant religions are relatively new. And it is kinda silly when they try to say until their religion was founded that no one was saved and even sillier when they try to play god and look in the past to determine who was saved and who was not. The Gospel of Christ saves and will stand up against any denomination that tries to play god.
Agreed.
Seems like we don't know who the enemy is.
thumbsup.gif
 
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GodsGrace

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The Wonder is not that there are saved people outside of the Catholic church, but that there are saved people within her. Despite her.

Even God says that He has people still in Babylon. But He calls them out. There's danger in remaining.
I had to leave the CC because there was nothing there for me AFTER I got saved....
however I was attending the CC when I DID get saved.

I just can't understand what the danger can be of remaining.
What are the dangers?
 
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illini1959

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I placed a I like what you said, But I am not sure where you were going, Paul stated that some were of Paul, and some of Peter, and some of James, OK, not an exact Quote! but you know what I mean, and I Agree that What Jesus began to do and Teach, until He was taken Up, Acts 1 chapt 1 is the Gospel of the Kingdom. What say Ye? Matthew is all about the King from Heaven, laying down the rules [ Constitution ] of the Kingdom of Heaven, and if you read slowly and consider what Jesus is Teaching, how con we miss that! What is Your take on this!
I know this is out of context with this Thread, but just the same I am just Curious!!

Hi ~ I'm not sure what your question is, I'm sorry!

Do you mean 1 Corinthians 3:4-7?

4 For when one says, “I am of Paul,” and another, “I am of Apollos,” are you not mere men? 5 What then is Apollos? And what is Paul? Servants through whom you believed, even as the Lord gave opportunity to each one. 6 I planted, Apollos watered, but God was causing the growth. 7 So then neither the one who plants nor the one who waters is anything, but God who causes the growth.

If so, there were people in Corinth who were bragging that they followed Apollos or Paul, and Paul is saying hey we're just servants! God causes the growth....Paul always pointed people back to God.

If you mean something else, let me know.

If it helps, my point is that the gospel is pretty much summed up in John 3:16 - For God so loved the world, that He gave His only begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him shall not perish, but have eternal life. <--- this is the good new of Jesus Christ

There's nothing we, as humans, can do to earn it, add to it, keep it, etc., it's a free gift from God - totally undeserved.

The Catholic Church teaches one must do works to keep it; do works to (somehow) assist Christ in getting it....that along with the Marian doctrine, etc., is a different gospel and we're warned about that, for example - But even if we or an angel from heaven should preach to you a gospel contrary to the one we preached to you, let him be accursed. Galatians 1:8

If that's not what you wanted me to address please let me know, I'll be happy to clarify whatever....