Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[BreadOfLife]

No.

I answered you. I told you to go back and look. You can do your own makeup.

In other words, you can't point me to a post because you never answered the questions.

That's what I thought . . .

 

[Giuliano]

Just because the Church is led to ALL truth by the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15) doesn’t mean that every individual within the Church always avails themselves to that truth – or is perfect. If that were the case – Peter wouldn’t have sinned against the Gentiles (Gal 7:25).

Paul wouldn't have admitted to continuing to sin (Rom. 7:15-25).

John wouldn’t have included himself when he admonished his born again readers that NONE of them could say they were without sin.

James never would have told his born again readers that they need to confess their sins.

Maybe it;'s because you're outside of it - but you have some funny ideas about what the Church is . . .

I would say you have some funny ideas because you're in a particular church. . . .

 

[ScottA]

In other words, you can't point me to a post because you never answered the questions.

That's what I thought . . .

No...I or anyone who can read could point you to where I answered you. But since you are being a brat, the answer is, No. Do it yourself.

 

[Yehren]

If we are to discern the truth by judging the actions of others, where does that leave the Catholic Church's claim to have "all truth"?

The Catholic Church rejects nothing that is true and holy in these religions. She regards with sincere reverence those ways of conduct and of life, those precepts and teachings which, though differing in many aspects from the ones she holds and sets forth, nonetheless often reflect a ray of that Truth which enlightens all of humanity.
DECLARATION ON
THE RELATION OF THE CHURCH TO NON-CHRISTIAN RELIGIONS
NOSTRA AETATE
PROCLAIMED BY HIS HOLINESS
POPE PAUL VI
ON OCTOBER 28, 1965

 

[BreadOfLife]

I would say you have some funny ideas because you're in a particular church. . . .

Matt. 16:18
And so I say to you, you are Peter, and upon this rock I will build my CHURCH, and the gates of the netherworld shall not prevail against it.

Christ built ONE Church – which By the end of the 1st century was called, “The Catholic Church” (Ignatius of Antioch, Letter to the Smyrnaeans, AD 107).

He didn’t build tens of thousands of disjointed and perpetually-splintering Protestant sects that ALL teach different and competing doctrines.

Neither did He sanction a gaggle of un-shepherded Lone Rangers like yourself.

Either you’re PART of His ONE Church – or you’re outside of it . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

I couldn't even tell you what they are.

Now, let's see what your character response is.

Okay – let’s recap . . .

In post #1699 – YOU said:
“Now you are just lying.
I said, “nor did I take any leads from others.”

In the very NEXT post (#1700) – I challenged you to answer whether or not you believed in:
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Eternal Security

I also asked you if you REJECT the doctrines of:
The Real Presence in the Eucharist
Baptismal Regeneration
Intercession of the saints in Heaven

In post #1702 – YOU responded with:
“I couldn’t even tell you what they are.”

SO – I explained each one in post #1705 – and you have been refusing to answer them ever since.
Your big “answer” was that you claimed ignorance – so I explained each one.

WHY is it that you are so afraid to address them??

 

[ScottA]

Okay – let’s recap . . .

In post #1699 – YOU said:
“Now you are just lying.
I said, “nor did I take any leads from others.”

In the very NEXT post (#1700) – I challenged you to answer whether or not you believed in:
Sola Scriptura
Sola Fide
Eternal Security

I also asked you if you REJECT the doctrines of:
The Real Presence in the Eucharist
Baptismal Regeneration
Intercession of the saints in Heaven

In post #1702 – YOU responded with:
“I couldn’t even tell you what they are.”

SO – I explained each one in post #1705 – and you have been refusing to answer them ever since.
Your big “answer” was that you claimed ignorance – so I explained each one.

WHY is it that you are so afraid to address them??

You assume I am "afraid to address them." I am not.

I have not addressed them because they are terms invented by the teachings of men. If they were of God, I would know of them. Therefore, I do not acknowledge them. That is the point of this discussion: What is of God and what is of men.

You have made it perfectly clear who it is you follow.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You assume I am "afraid to address them." I am not.

I have not addressed them because they are terms invented by the teachings of men. If they were of God, I would know of them. Therefore, I do not acknowledge them. That is the point of this discussion: What is of God and what is of men.

You have made it perfectly clear who it is you follow.

Very well – since you like to play semantic games – how about the doctrinal positions behind them?

Do you believe:
That the Scriptures alone are our sole authority?
That we are saved by faith alone?
That once we are “saved” – we are “saved” forever?

Do you reject:
The idea that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Christ?
That we are regenerated at Baptism?
That the saints in Heaven intercede for us with God?

 

[Yehren]

I have not addressed them because they are terms invented by the teachings of men. If they were of God, I would know of them.

That belief is an invented teaching of man. You, specifically. It's important to keep the distinction between Him and us, when we talk about these things.

What is of God and what is of men.

The Bible you read, for example, is a compilation by men, who used prayer, tradition, and scholarship to determine which books were actually the Word of God.

So unless you subscribe to the notion of infallibility (which apples as much to the bishops in council as it does to the Pope) you're following the traditions of men.

 

[ScottA]

Very well – since you like to play semantic games – how about the doctrinal positions behind them?

Now that I have established the terms correctly, I will answer specifically:

Do you believe:
That the Scriptures alone are our sole authority? No, it is the Spirit behind the scriptures who has sole authority, without which the scriptures are mere words and foolishness.

That we are saved by faith alone? No, "faith" is but one component of salvation, which is of God and not of those saved.

That once we are “saved” – we are “saved” forever? Yes, "saved" is saved, salvation is eternal life (forever).

Do you reject:
The idea that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Christ? Is Christ a memory? That is the context. So, No, I do not consider those things real. Christ is real. Those things are for "remembrance."

That we are regenerated at Baptism? We are not regenerated at water baptism, but at baptism of the Holy Spirit.

That the saints in Heaven intercede for us with God? There is One who intercedes, in whom are the saints of Israel who has proceeded us. They are One.​

 

[ScottA]

That belief is an invented teaching of man. You, specifically. It's important to keep the distinction between Him and us, when we talk about these things.

Not sure what you are trying to say.

The Bible you read, for example, is a compilation by men, who used prayer, tradition, and scholarship to determine which books were actually the Word of God.

So unless you subscribe to the notion of infallibility (which apples as much to the bishops in council as it does to the Pope) you're following the traditions of men.

No...you don't understand. That is the line quoted, but not the truth.

The scriptures chosen by men to be the bible are subject to interpretations of fallible men. On the contrary, it is God who is infallible and will not allow His word to return void, in spite of the fallibility of wicked men. As it is written: "A man’s heart plans his way, But the Lord directs his steps." and, "Truly the hearts of the sons of men are full of evil."

The word of God is His own providence alone.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Now that I have established the terms correctly, I will answer specifically:

Do you believe:
That the Scriptures alone are our sole authority? No, it is the Spirit behind the scriptures who has sole authority, without which the scriptures are mere words and foolishness.

That we are saved by faith alone? No, "faith" is but one component of salvation, which is of God and not of those saved.

That once we are “saved” – we are “saved” forever? Yes, "saved" is saved, salvation is eternal life (forever).

Do you reject:
The idea that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Christ? Is Christ a memory? That is the context. So, No, I do not consider those things real. Christ is real. Those things are for "remembrance."

That we are regenerated at Baptism? We are not regenerated at water baptism, but at baptism of the Holy Spirit.

That the saints in Heaven intercede for us with God? There is One who intercedes, in whom are the saints of Israel who has proceeded us. They are One.​

Then you HAVE taken your lead from the 16th century ecclesial Rebels.

Some of your beliefs are further perversions of their original perversions – but the gist is pure 16th century man-made doctrine.

From the beginning, the Church has taught that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul & Divinity of Christ:
Ignatius of Antioch
See that you all follow the bishop, even as Jesus Christ does the Father, and the presbytery as you would the apostles; and reverence the deacons, as being the institution of God. Let no man do anything connected with the Church without the bishop. Let that be deemed a proper Eucharist, which is administered either by the bishop, or by one to whom he has entrusted it. Wherever the bishop shall appear, there let the multitude of the people also be; even as wherever Jesus Christ is, there is the Catholic Church. (Letter to the Smyrnaeans, AD 107).

As for intercession – Rev. 5:8 shows those in Heaven taking our prayers to God – and Rev. 8:4-5 shows the Angels in Heaven doing the same thing. By contrast, 1 Tim. 2:5 says that Christ is our one MEDIATOR because only HIS sacrifice brings peace between us and God:

1 Tim. 2:5
For there is one God, and there is one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus.

As for Baptism – the Bible says that it REGENERATES us in the spirit (John 3:5. Col. 2:11-12, Acts2:38, 1 Pet. 3:21).
Additionally - the Bible does NOT support the 16th century invention that once we are “saved” – we are “saved” forever.
We are warned NOT to fall back into darkness and LOSE our security (Rom. 11:22, Heb. 10:26-27, 2 Pet. 2:20-22, Matt. 5:13, 2 Cor. 9:27, 2 Pet. 3:17, 2 John 2:24, Rev. 3:5, Rev. 22:19).

In short - your beliefs are classic Protestant positions - and some are simply updated perversions of those positions . . .

 

[epostle]

To accept the Bible as authoritive and reject the authority that preserved, compiled and proclaimed it is illogical and self defeating. That's why rebels are forced to re-write history.

 

[Yehren]

Yehren says:
The Bible you read, for example, is a compilation by men, who used prayer, tradition, and scholarship to determine which books were actually the Word of God.

So unless you subscribe to the notion of infallibility (which apples as much to the bishops in council as it does to the Pope) you're following the traditions of men.

No...

Yes. The canon of the Bible you use was determined by a group of men. They used prayer, and tradition, and scholarship to determine what it would be. And there was not universal agreement.

you don't understand.

I get it, but you're still rebelling against His way. You see, He said that His church would not fail. So the bishops in council are infallibly inspired by God, just as the Pope is, when speaking ex cathedra.

The scriptures chosen by men to be the bible are subject to interpretations of fallible men. On the contrary, it is God who is infallible and will not allow His word to return void, in spite of the fallibility of wicked men.

You are confusing "infallibility" and "impeccability." Two different things. But His grace and guidance is what the doctrine of infallibility is about, as He said when He declared that His Church would not fail.

 

[Yehren]

To accept the Bible as authoritive and reject the authority that preserved, compiled and proclaimed it is illogical and self defeating. That's why rebels are forced to re-write history.

Yes, it's the dilemma faced by so many denominations.

 

[charity]

@Aspen
Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

Hello there,

God is the Creator, the Maker of heaven and earth. He it is that made us. He therefore is the only One Who has the authority to judge what is of Him and what is not. He has given us His Word, within which He has told us of the salvation that He has procured for us, by what means it was achieved, and how it may be received.

No earthly authority religious or secular has the right to take that authority upon itself. Only concerning God, and the Lord Jesus Christ His Son was it ever said, that before Him, 'every knee shall bow' and 'every tongue shall confess' (or 'swear') [Isaiah 45:23 & Romans 14:11].

May His Name be glorified

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[charity]

To accept the Bible as authoritive and reject the authority that preserved, compiled and proclaimed it is illogical and self defeating. That's why rebels are forced to re-write history.

'The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
Thou shalt preserve them
from this generation for ever.
(Psalm 12:6-7)

Hello @epostle,

With respect to you, it is God Who is the 'Authority' Who has preserved His Word.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[epostle]

Giuliano said: ↑

If we are to discern the truth by judging the actions of others, where does that leave the Catholic Church's claim to have "all truth"?

First, it is a grave error to discern the truth by judging the actions of others. Second, the Catholic Church does not claim to have "all truth", that is polemical nonsense. The claim to be the one true Church does not mean nobody else can have truths. Dichotomous thinking is stupid.

 

[epostle]

'The words of the LORD are pure words:
as silver tried in a furnace of earth,
purified seven times.
Thou shalt keep them, O LORD,
Thou shalt preserve them
from this generation for ever.
(Psalm 12:6-7)

Hello @epostle,

With respect to you, it is God Who is the 'Authority' Who has preserved His Word.

Praise His Holy Name!

In Christ Jesus
Chris

Yes, but to deny that God used sinful humans to preserve His Word is self defeating and illogical. All authority belongs to Jesus, and He gave His very own authority to earthly, physical human beings to teach and baptise.

Matthew 28:18-20

"therefore" in verse 19 is a conjunctive verb, joining the authority of Christ with the authority He bestowed upon the Apostles. The Bible clearly and repetitively teaches that God would preserve His Church. You either accept what the Bible says about God preserving His Church, or you fall for the man made tradition of a supposedly destructable Church. You are in denial of Psalm 12:6-7 that you quoted, or you don't understand it. The "Word of God" appears in the Bible about 200 times, and nowhere is "Word of God" confined to the written word alone. That is another self defeating, illogical man made tradition.

 

[charity]

Luk_1:69 And hath raised up an horn of salvation for us in the house of His servant David;
Luk_1:77 To give knowledge of salvation unto His people by the remission of their sins,
Luk_2:30 For mine eyes have seen Thy salvation,
Luk_3:6 And all flesh shall see the salvation of God.
Luk_19:9 And Jesus said unto him, This day is salvation come to this house, forsomuch as he also is a son of Abraham.
Joh_4:22 Ye worship ye know not what: we know what we worship: for salvation is of the Jews.
Act_4:12 Neither is there salvation in any other: for there is none other name under heaven given among men, whereby we must be saved.
Act_13:26 Men and brethren, children of the stock of Abraham, and whosoever among you feareth God, to you is the word of this salvation sent.
Act_13:47 For so hath the Lord commanded us, saying, I have set thee to be a light of the Gentiles, that thou shouldest be for salvation unto the ends of the earth.
Act_16:17 The same followed Paul and us, and cried, saying, These men are the servants of the most high God, which shew unto us the way of salvation.

--------------------------​

* Salvation was to come through the People of Israel, and through the Lord Jesus Christ, His person and His work: only when Israel had gone away into blindness and unbelief at the end of the Acts period, was salvation sent to the Gentiles, for they would hear it.

'Be it known therefore unto you,
that the salvation of God
is sent unto the Gentiles,
and that they will hear it.'
(Acts 28:28)

* This is 'The salvation of God', which is received through Jesus Christ our Lord.
* When Israel comes to repentance, Christ return, and the times of refreshing come from the presence of God as promised in Acts 3:19-20, then Israel will once more fulfil their Divinely allotted task of taking the word of salvation to the nations at the end of the age.

In Christ Jesus
Chris