Is there salvation outside the Catholic Church?

[Giuliano]

No - we ARE the Church that Jesus started 2000 years ago - with the history to prove it.
We go back further than the rabble that YOU took YOUR lead from 500 years ago . . .

Wherefore by their history ye shall know them.

Other Christians are not "ravening wolves." We should be especially careful not to disparage others who follow Christ, even if we disagree with some of their beliefs.

And yes, Catholics have also been guilty of this; it's not one-sided.

I would say ravening wolves are not Christians even if they dress up in clerical garb.

 

[ScottA]

Do you believe in things like . .
- Sola Scriptura
- Sola Fide
- Eternal Security (OSAS)

Do you reject things like . . .
- The Real Presence in the Eucharist
- Baptismal Regeneration
- Prayerful Intercession of the Saints in Heaven

If you do - then you got your lead from the Rebels in the 16th century - and have been perverting their beliefs ever since . . .

I couldn't even tell you what they are.

Now, let's see what your character response is.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Wherefore by their history ye shall know them.

I would say ravening wolves are not Christians even if they dress up in clerical garb.

And the Bible would say that, unless you are perfect - which YOU ain't and nobody else it - then the Church is made up of flawed, sinful people.

Paul admitted it (Rom. 7:15-25)
John Admitted it (1 John 1:8)
James admitted it (James 5:16)

But, somehow YOU can't - which speaks VOLUMES about your rejection of God's Word . . .

 

[Giuliano]

No - YOU stand condemned by Scripture because you forsake the Body of Christ (Heb. 10:25) for your unbiblical Lone Ranger approach.

Again you confuse the Spiritual Church with an earthly one.

Christ gave Supreme Authority to His CHURCH (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, 20:21-25) - not to the individual.

This is how a wolf speaks. "I'm the boss, you mangy sheep, get in line, or you'll be my next meal."

HIS Church is NOT an invisible gaggle of anonymous believers - but a VISIBLE entity in the world:

Matt. 5:14
"You are the light of the world. A city set on a mountain cannot be hidden."

Your Lone Ranger approach to what YOU consider to be "Christianity" is thoroughly anti-Biblical . . .

Ha, ha. So says the spiritually blind one. I would say the spiritual darkness of many of our clergy (both Protestant and Catholic) can show us when there in no light in them. Yet you talk about seeing light.

Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

 

[BreadOfLife]

I couldn't even tell you what they are.
Now, let's see what your character response is.

Really?
You are completely ignorant of ALL of these? Allow me to ask you again - with explanations . . .

So - you reject Sola Scriptura - the idea that the Scriptures alone are are final Authority?
You reject Sola Fide - the man made premise that we are saved by Faith Alone?
You reject Eternal Security - the Protestant invention that once we are saved - we are ALWAYS saved?

You embrace the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist - the idea that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ?
You embrace the 2000 year old doctrine that we are spiritually regenerated at Baptism - including infants?
You believe - as the writers of the NT did - that those in Heaven are praying/interceding for us on earth?

 

[ScottA]

Really?
You are completely ignorant of ALL of these? Allow me to ask you again - with explanations . . .

So - you reject Sola Scriptura - the idea that the Scriptures alone are are final Authority?
You reject Sola Fide - the man made premise that we are saved by Faith Alone?
You reject Eternal Security - the Protestant invention that once we are saved - we are ALWAYS saved?

You embrace the Real Presence of Christ in the Eucharist - the idea that the Eucharist is the Body, Blood, Soul and Divinity of Christ?
You embrace the 2000 year old doctrine that we are spiritually regenerated at Baptism - including infants?
You believe - as the writers of the NT did - that those in Heaven are praying/interceding for us on earth?

A liar, an accuser, and now unbelief coupled with name-calling. Not good character.

I already answered truthfully.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Again you confuse the Spiritual Church with an earthly one.

This is how a wolf speaks. "I'm the boss, you mangy sheep, get in line, or you'll be my next meal."
Ha, ha. So says the spiritually blind one. I would say the spiritual darkness of many of our clergy (both Protestant and Catholic) can show us when there in no light in them. Yet you talk about seeing light.

Hebrews 11:10 For he looked for a city which hath foundations, whose builder and maker is God.

Hebrews 11:16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.

Hebrews 12:22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

Hebrews 13:14 For here have we no continuing city, but we seek one to come.

First of all - there is only ONE Church - not TWO.
There is no "Spiritual vs. Earthly Church". they are ONE and the same.

As for the rest - it doesn't matter to me ONE bit that you reject the words of Christ regarding His Church (Matt. 16:18-19, 18:15-18, Luke 10:16, John 16:12-15, 20:21-25). That's something YOU'LL have to explain to Him - NOT me.

He chose to identify His very SELF with His Church (Acts 9:4-5).
Sooooooo, your rejection of His Church is a rejection of HIM (Luke 10:16).

Good luck with that . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

A liar, an accuser, and now unbelief coupled with name-calling. Not good character.

I already answered truthfully.

You said that you were unfamiliar with these terms, so I explained them.

Can you answer the questions - or can I simply assume that I was correct in saying that you just took your lead from the 16th century ecclesial Rebels?

PS - YOU accused me of "name-calling". WHEN did I do that to you??
Ummmmmmm, and you have the audacity call ME a "Liar" . . .

 

[Giuliano]

And the Bible would say that, unless you are perfect - which YOU ain't and nobody else it - then the Church is made up of flawed, sinful people.

Paul admitted it (Rom. 7:15-25)
John Admitted it (1 John 1:8)
James admitted it (James 5:16)

But, somehow YOU can't - which speaks VOLUMES about your rejection of God's Word . . .

And I'll admit I sin too. I don't expect anyone to be perfect. What I do expect from Christians is evidence of making progress on the spiritual path, movement in the direction of perfection. Did you not hear about Pope Francis publicly saying he'd made a mistake about events in Chile? That was the honest thing to do and the Christian thing to do. Would to God others in the Catholic Church (and in the dark corners of Protestantism too) were as honest and willing to make progress spiritually by correcting their mistakes.

What I have seen too often in the Catholic Church are priests and bishops who would never change their sinning and covering up unless the press exposed them and the government prosecuted them. They then put on an act of contrition and want to keep their positions. They're not sorry for what they did. They're sorry they got caught!

You know what? I could believe a good priest might molest one altar boy once. Then he would repent, being a good priest, and be sure never to do it again. He would also apologize to the boy and tell his parents too, saying if they wanted to prosecute, he would plead guilty. If I were a parent with a child as an altar boy, I'd believe that priest. I wouldn't press charges. I'd say, "He confessed this when he could have tried to get away with it. He's a good guy who slipped."

It's very different for people who sin again and again in the same way, never learning, never truly repenting of anything but posing as holy men.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Such priests also defile the Holy Eucharist with their mockery and fake repentance.

 

[BreadOfLife]

And I'll admit I sin too. I don't expect anyone to be perfect. What I do expect from Christians is evidence of making progress on the spiritual path, movement in the direction of perfection. Did you not hear about Pope Francis publicly saying he'd made a mistake about events in Chile? That was the honest thing to do and the Christian thing to do. Would to God others in the Catholic Church (and in the dark corners of Protestantism too) were as honest and willing to make progress spiritually by correcting their mistakes.

What I have seen too often in the Catholic Church are priests and bishops who would never change their sinning and covering up unless the press exposed them and the government prosecuted them. They then put on an act of contrition and want to keep their positions. They're not sorry for what they did. They're sorry they got caught!

You know what? I could believe a good priest might molest one altar boy once. Then he would repent, being a good priest, and be sure never to do it again. He would also apologize to the boy and tell his parents too, saying if they wanted to prosecute, he would plead guilty. If I were a parent with a child as an altar boy, I'd believe that priest. I wouldn't press charges. I'd say, "He confessed this when he could have tried to get away with it. He's a good guy who slipped."

It's very different for people who sin again and again in the same way, never learning, never truly repenting of anything but posing as holy men.

Hebrews 10:26 For if we sin wilfully after that we have received the knowledge of the truth, there remaineth no more sacrifice for sins,
27 But a certain fearful looking for of judgment and fiery indignation, which shall devour the adversaries.

Such priests also defile the Holy Eucharist with their mockery and fake repentance.

And how many times have YOU repeated the same sins in YOUR lifetime?
If you say "Never" - then you probably NEVER sin - and that would be quite unbelievable.

As for the repeat offenders when it comes to child molesting priests and Protestant clergy - they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. BUT they should never be seen as the "only" ones out there who are sinning.
Look in the mirror before you go around pointing fingers because YOU will be judged by the same measuring stick by which you judged others (Matt. 7:2) . . .

 

[ScottA]

You said that you were unfamiliar with these terms, so I explained them.

Can you answer the questions - or can I simply assume that I was correct in saying that you just took your lead from the 16th century ecclesial Rebels?

PS - YOU accused me of "name-calling". WHEN did I do that to you??
Ummmmmmm, and you have the audacity call ME a "Liar" . . .

Look...You are skating on thin ice. I named off your offenses, and the proof of them is recorded here in writing.

There is no reason why I should believe anything except that you will again wrongly assume. Do what you will.

Nonetheless, I have answered you already.

 

[Giuliano]

And how many times have YOU repeated the same sins in YOUR lifetime?
If you say "Never" - then you probably NEVER sin - and that would be quite unbelievable.

Actually I have a good record. I can remember my Mother pointing out mistakes to me, explaining why some things were wrong and I never did them again.

As for the repeat offenders when it comes to child molesting priests and Protestant clergy - they should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law. BUT they should never be seen as the "only" ones out there who are sinning.
Look in the mirror before you go around pointing fingers because YOU will be judged by the same measuring stick by which you judged others (Matt. 7:2) . . .

Those repeating offenders wouldn't have kept molesting children if they knew their bishops would have turned them over to the law to be dealt with. Instead too many bishops covered up crimes. Now they wonder why they too can go to prison.

There was a culture of corruption and you know it. Nothing would have changed if it had been left up to the Catholic Church to take action. Now dioceses are going bankrupt and donations down, now that the bad news has tarnished reputations, suddenly the Catholic Church is getting religion? That would be like you going to confession and telling your priest only the things you thought he already knew about. Why confess things he couldn't know about? Can't you see that the Catholics in the pews were better Christians than the people preaching the sermons?

I am not pretending to be a physician who can heal others when I'm dying of disease myself and when I'm trying to pass on my sickness to others.

 

[Yehren]

Wherefore by their history ye shall know them.

I would say ravening wolves are not Christians even if they dress up in clerical garb.

Or the robes of pharisees.

 

[BreadOfLife]

Actually I have a good record. I can remember my Mother pointing out mistakes to me, explaining why some things were wrong and I never did them again.

Those repeating offenders wouldn't have kept molesting children if they knew their bishops would have turned them over to the law to be dealt with. Instead too many bishops covered up crimes. Now they wonder why they too can go to prison.

There was a culture of corruption and you know it. Nothing would have changed if it had been left up to the Catholic Church to take action. Now dioceses are going bankrupt and donations down, now that the bad news has tarnished reputations, suddenly the Catholic Church is getting religion? That would be like you going to confession and telling your priest only the things you thought he already knew about. Why confess things he couldn't know about? Can't you see that the Catholics in the pews were better Christians than the people preaching the sermons?

I am not pretending to be a physician who can heal others when I'm dying of disease myself and when I'm trying to pass on my sickness to others.

More of your nonsense.

First of All – the number of offending priests is an extraordinarily small percentage. By blaming them ALL – you might as well blame your wife and children for YOUR sins.

Nobody is denying that there was a culture of corruption among some of the bishops – but they do not make up the entire Church. That would be like blaming Ted Haggard and Jimmy Swaggart’s congregations for THEIR transgressions.

As for your claim that you “never” repeat your sins – as I stated earlier – this would make you SIN-FREE by now. Are you claiming to be SIN-FREE?? If so - 1 John 1:8 says you are lying and the truth is NOT in you. The problem with self-righteous people like YOU is that you don’t heed God’s warnings:

Matt. 7:1-2
“Stop judging, that you may not be judged.
FOR AS YOU JUDGE, SO WILL YOU BE JUDGED, AND THE MEASURE WITH WHICH YOU MEASURE WILL BE MEASURED OUT TO YOU.”

Our job as Christian is to discern the truth by judging the actions of INDIVIDUALS – NOT to condemn Christ’s Church. When you condemn His Church – you condemn HIM and the ONE who sent Him (Luke 10:16).

Good luck with that . . .

 

[BreadOfLife]

Looked...You are skating on thin ice. I named off your offenses, and the proof of them is recorded here in writing.

There is no reason why I should believe anything except that you will again wrongly assume. Do what you will.

Nonetheless, I have answered you already.

No – you haven’t answered a thing. You are dodging my questions like you usually do when you’ve backed yourself into a corner.

Why are you afraid to answer the following?
Do you adhere to Sola Scriptura?
Do you adhere to Sola Fida
Do you adhere to Eternal Security?

Do you reject the Real Presence in the Eucharist?
Do you reject Baptismal Regeneration?
Do you reject the prayerful intercession of the saints in Heaven?

Face it - you are afraid to answer these questions because it will prove that you took your lead from the Protestant Rebels in the 16th century . . .

 

[ScottA]

No – you haven’t answered a thing. You are dodging my questions like you usually do when you’ve backed yourself into a corner.

Why are you afraid to answer the following?
Do you adhere to Sola Scriptura?
Do you adhere to Sola Fida
Do you adhere to Eternal Security?

Do you reject the Real Presence in the Eucharist?
Do you reject Baptismal Regeneration?
Do you reject the prayerful intercession of the saints in Heaven?

Face it - you are afraid to answer these questions because it will prove that you took your lead from the Protestant Rebels in the 16th century . . .

You lying spirit...go back a look--I answered you.

 

[BreadOfLife]

You lying spirit...go back a look--I answered you.

Then please point me to the post where you answered the following questions:

Do you adhere to Sola Scriptura?
Do you adhere to Sola Fida
Do you adhere to Eternal Security?

Do you reject the Real Presence in the Eucharist?
Do you reject Baptismal Regeneration?
Do you reject the prayerful intercession of the saints in Heaven?

Can you at least tell me the post #??

 

[ScottA]

Then please point me to the post where you answered the following questions:

Do you adhere to Sola Scriptura?
Do you adhere to Sola Fida
Do you adhere to Eternal Security?

Do you reject the Real Presence in the Eucharist?
Do you reject Baptismal Regeneration?
Do you reject the prayerful intercession of the saints in Heaven?

Can you at least tell me the post #??

No.

I answered you. I told you to go back and look. You can do your own makeup.

 

[Giuliano]

As for your claim that you “never” repeat your sins – as I stated earlier – this would make you SIN-FREE by now.

I already told you I sin. I ask myself right now if I'm sinning by talking with you. If I was sure about it, I'd stop. Then again, perhaps stopping would be a sin.

Our job as Christian is to discern the truth by judging the actions of INDIVIDUALS – NOT to condemn Christ’s Church. When you condemn His Church – you condemn HIM and the ONE who sent Him (Luke 10:16).

Good luck with that . . .

If we are to discern the truth by judging the actions of others, where does that leave the Catholic Church's claim to have "all truth"?

 

[BreadOfLife]

I already told you I sin. I ask myself right now if I'm sinning by talking with you. If I was sure about it, I'd stop. Then again, perhaps stopping would be a sin.
If we are to discern the truth by judging the actions of others, where does that leave the Catholic Church's claim to have "all truth"?

Just because the Church is led to ALL truth by the Holy Spirit (John 16:12-15) doesn’t mean that every individual within the Church always avails themselves to that truth – or is perfect. If that were the case – Peter wouldn’t have sinned against the Gentiles (Gal 7:25).

Paul wouldn't have admitted to continuing to sin (Rom. 7:15-25).

John wouldn’t have included himself when he admonished his born again readers that NONE of them could say they were without sin.

James never would have told his born again readers that they need to confess their sins.

Maybe it;'s because you're outside of it - but you have some funny ideas about what the Church is . . .