NO ONE can choose for another person.
There's some misunderstanding here.
But you said...parents are choosing for a baby....and they then receive a born again spirit....
How is that so, when they have made no choice?
Glory to God,
Taken
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NO ONE can choose for another person.
There's some misunderstanding here.
From John 3 I would see that it comes very much to the individual (not on someone else's behalf).But you said...parents are choosing for a baby....and they then receive a born again spirit....
How is that so, when they have made no choice?
Glory to God,
Taken
Yes, it is pivotal.For me Hebrews chapters 9 and 10 about the one offering, would be pivotal...
The parent is held responsible for the child. Similarly the priest who is reckless about confession is held accountable if he is too lax. If he is sloppy and tells someone his sins are forgiven when all sins haven't been fully confessed, the priest is agreeing to bear the consequences. Jesus told his Apostle they could remit sins, and that's how they do it. It's also why being a martyr works. If you are willing to die because of the love you see in Jesus and wish others could see it too, God will not allow your blood to be wasted. Similarly if people persecute you for his name sake and you can still love them, you will be blessed because they are tied to you.The parents should be taking on the complete burden of the spiritual burden...or growth, I would say...of their child. Why only part? The church should be involved, but the burden is with the parents and THEY are the first teachers of their child's faith. The first catechists are the parents...catechists should only be confirming what the parents have taught the child.
Unfortunately, these days this is not true, and some parents even see bringing their children to catechism class as a bother.
As to the parent paying the price if the child if he errs....I don't know what you mean by this.
It will be in the end. If someone is tied to you in love, eventually they will have to see how your love for God is personal and then they too will arrive in the kingdom. They will perceive your relationship with Jesus and come to know him too.This is a most beautiful thought.
It reminds me of
1 Corinthians 7:14
14For the unbelieving husband is sanctified through his wife, and the unbelieving wife is sanctified through her believing husband; for otherwise your children are unclean, but now they are holy.
I can only say I would hope your idea is true,,,,but I don't believe it is.
Doesn't love for God have to be personal?
Gosh Taken...I'd have to go back and see my actual words...But you said...parents are choosing for a baby....and they then receive a born again spirit....
How is that so, when they have made no choice?
Glory to God,
Taken
The Apostolic faith is all there in the Scriptures......I do not accredit Catholics exclusively for perserving the Apostles writings?
I think it confers a type of awareness that helps the conscience work better, in a more informed way. One of my sisters adopted a boy; and as he grew up, he seemed to want to be good but often strayed off. I asked her if he had ever been baptized and she said no. I think he would have made fewer mistakes in life if he had been baptized.A priest once told me that some persons go back to the church to get UN-BAPTIZED because they are so deep into atheism. He told them this is impossible because of the mark that is received.
Then, I'd have to ask: What is the good of having a mark if the person does not even want to be Christian?
Well, this is the idea.I think it confers a type of awareness that helps the conscience work better, in a more informed way. One of my sisters adopted a boy; and as he grew up, he seemed to want to be good but often strayed off. I asked her if he had ever been baptized and she said no. I think he would have made fewer mistakes in life if he had been baptized.
I do have a question for you....
Why would Jesus instruct the Apostles to teach and to baptize in the name of the Father, the Son and the Holy Spirit in Matthew 28:19
IF baptism is ONLY the sign of an inner change?
WHY would this symbolism be needed?
To impress those we know? (that we have become Christian).
Why?
From John 3 I would see that it comes very much to the individual (not on someone else's behalf).
'Every one that is born of the Spirit'; it doesn't happen vaguely in groups.Not seeing what you see.
Glory to God,
Taken
That's the point...GG ~ Jesus came to instruct and teach men HOW to be and what it Meant to be Baptized in the name of the Father, the son and the Holy Spirit.
Receiving of the gifts of Salvation and born again spirit are Spiritual. Men could not SEE anything. Men who were teaching, knew the point they were being saved and born again, and informed them....
Glory to God,
Taken
Well, it's pivotal doctrinally in the symbolism, and in John's Gospel we see Father, Son and Holy Spirit working together so closely in redemption.That's the point...
What DOES it mean to be baptized?
Why did Jesus make such a point of this IF it's only a symbol?
Something to think about...
I don't have the whole answer either.
I think it's like the Prodigal Son. He could wander off and forget things for a while; but eventually he came to his senses. I like how his father seemed to be expecting him back.Well, this is the idea.
There is some mystery here...
Maybe the Holy Spirit stays with a child UNTIL that child decides not to follow God.
Your longer post is interesting, but must leave for a while.
Later.
DID I SAY THAT!!
Only adults should be baptized because it is their choice and belief.
There is an age of reason....when one can understand the things of God.
I know the reasons why the children of a religious family were baptized in the early days of the church...and I agree with it. We do not deny God to children.
What I'm saying is that it DOES NOT SAVE...
UNLESS, at some point in a normal person's life, that baptism is ACCEPTED.
Seems factual, anyway...Hmmmm.
I'll go with a "no comment".
LOL
Paul explains baptism clearly in Romans 6. We are baptised into Christ's death. The carnal nature we choose to put to death we then act out that decision by showing sometime rise to lower is into the grave... Symbolically speaking of course... An act a baby cannot choose to do and which sprinkling does not accomplish.That's the point...
What DOES it mean to be baptized?
Why did Jesus make such a point of this IF it's only a symbol?
Something to think about...
I don't have the whole answer either.
Did a baby have to choose that carnal nature to have it? Or did someone make the choice that gave him that? Why does what Adam and Eve did matter to people born today?Paul explains baptism clearly in Romans 6. We are baptised into Christ's death. The carnal nature we choose to put to death we then act out that decision by showing sometime rise to lower is into the grave... Symbolically speaking of course... An act a baby cannot choose to do and which sprinkling does not accomplish.