Is this good for Christianity?

[Heart2Soul]

Yesterday the conservative group, The American Enterprise Institute, released a report on the decline of religion in the US. It's a bit dense, but the main takeaway is depicted in the following graph. Note though that the decline is visually exaggerated by the scale chosen for the Y-axis.

What I usually wonder when I see this sort of thing is whether this is a long-term trend that will continue, or if it's just a temporary blip that will reverse sometime in the future.

The says there will be a great falling away....so it lines up with scripture.

 

[Jay Ross]

The{y} says there will be a great falling away....so it lines up with scripture.

But only after the great harvest has finished.

 

[MattMooradian]

Justadude: I enjoy your posts, even if you are a non-believer. It is sad that Christians argue in a spiteful manner from time to time. But, after all, we are mere humans. I may have even gone too far in some of my posts, but I am striving to be more polite/respectful of people with different beliefs.

Regarding the science problem and Christians: evolution is probably correct to a certain degree. But, it is still full of holes, which is why panspermia has become an accepted, alternative theory. Science is always growing and changing. Thomas Kuhn's Noble winning discoveries about how science changes over time should keep we scientists humble. Science is misunderstood by many; for instance, most people do not know that science NEVER identifies 'facts'. There are no facts within the realm of science; see Karl Popper regarding the 'Falsification Principle'. The best science can say is that 'something has not yet been proven false'. Over-confidence in science can result in unfounded conclusions.

Additionally, I question how you can be an atheist. Agnosticism, I understand. But, atheism requires faith? Why would you chose to be a man of faith, when you can chose the more honest path of agnosticism?

 

[Marymog]

Since I joined CB I've been rather taken aback by much of what I've read here. I realize most forums and message boards get their share of weirdness, but it appears to be particularly pervasive here. Specifically I've seen a surprising amount of anti-science and anti-intellectualism (the pandemic, evolution, climate change, to name a few), irrational hatred and fear of LGBTQs, wild-eyed conspiracy theories, and anger at even fellow Christians who don't believe the right things or have the right kind of faith.

Assuming the people espousing those views are about as eager to share and express them in person as they are here, I got to wondering if it's having, or will have, an effect on the state of Christianity in the world.

Most of us realize that Christianity is in decline in the developed world. In the US and Europe, the decline has been particularly stark. Will tying Christianity to the beliefs and attitudes named above further that decline? Will regular people increasingly associate Christianity with those things, and as a result reject the faith because they don't want to be lumped in with people holding those views?

And maybe the biggest question for the Christians here: Do you think promoting and spreading those things under the banner of Christianity is gaining converts, or is it driving people away?

Hi,

You pose a very good question. Is what members post on here such as anti-science, anti-intellectualism (the pandemic, evolution, climate change, to name a few), irrational hatred, fear of LGBTQs, wild-eyed conspiracy theories and anger at fellow Christians who don't believe the right things or have the right kind of faith driving people away?

I say yes, it has driven some away from this website. Some former members have even said as much when signing off in their last post. Hopefully it has not driven them away from Christ.

Mary

 

[Justadude]

The says there will be a great falling away....so it lines up with scripture.

True, but history shows that most religions fade away over time. So this could either be the fulfillment of a prophecy, or the same thing happening to Christianity that's happened to so many other religions.

 

[Heart2Soul]

True, but history shows that most religions fade away over time. So this could either be the fulfillment of a prophecy, or the same thing happening to Christianity that's happened to so many other religions.

Christians have given "Christianity " such a bad reputation that the millenials were the first generation to reject it....now they are adults having kids and not even teaching it....
So this last generation will have very little training up in the knowledge of it....there are alot of denominations today that are very liberal and these are the churches that the younger generation are drawn to.
Not all Christians....the Bible warns not to do anything that causes the ministry to be blamed....and that is the jest of it.

 

[Justadude]

Justadude: I enjoy your posts, even if you are a non-believer.

Thank you so much!

It is sad that Christians argue in a spiteful manner from time to time. But, after all, we are mere humans. I may have even gone too far in some of my posts, but I am striving to be more polite/respectful of people with different beliefs.

Definitely. Any large group of people is going to have internal arguments and members of the group who are a bit "out there". The question is, are they a significant portion of the group, and what does the rest of the group do if the ones who are "out there" increasingly become the public face of the group?

Regarding the science problem and Christians: evolution is probably correct to a certain degree. But, it is still full of holes, which is why panspermia has become an accepted, alternative theory.

I don't really debate that stuff much any more, since it's become extremely stale and rather boring. I will point out though that the origin of life isn't within the theory of evolution, which is about how organisms change over time. How the first one came to be is a different area of science (although there is some overlap). Make no mistake, it's still important though.

Science is always growing and changing. Thomas Kuhn's Noble winning discoveries about how science changes over time should keep we scientists humble. Science is misunderstood by many; for instance, most people do not know that science NEVER identifies 'facts'. There are no facts within the realm of science; see Karl Popper regarding the 'Falsification Principle'. The best science can say is that 'something has not yet been proven false'. Over-confidence in science can result in unfounded conclusions.

I've always thought of it as that science doesn't "prove" things. Scientists do deal in facts (i.e., observations), just not in "proof". As SJ Gould put it,

"..facts and theories are different things, not rungs in a hierarchy of increasing certainty. Facts are the world's data. Theories are structures of ideas that explain and interpret facts. Facts do not go away when scientists debate rival theories to explain them. Einstein's theory of gravitation replaced Newton's, but apples did not suspend themselves in mid-air, pending the outcome"​

Additionally, I question how you can be an atheist. Agnosticism, I understand. But, atheism requires faith? Why would you chose to be a man of faith, when you can chose the more honest path of agnosticism?

I am an agnostic.

 

[Justadude]

Christians have given "Christianity " such a bad reputation that the millenials were the first generation to reject it....now they are adults having kids and not even teaching it....
So this last generation will have very little training up in the knowledge of it

I agree (and it's the gist of this thread).

....there are alot of denominations today that are very liberal and these are the churches that the younger generation are drawn to.

Actually it's the more liberal denominations that seem to be declining the most.

Not all Christians....the Bible warns not to do anything that causes the ministry to be blamed....and that is the jest of it.

Oh sure. In fact, I'd say the majority of Christians aren't in the "crazy" category. It's just that the crazies have kind of seized the stage and microphone.

 

[Justadude]

Saw this today....

Ex-Pope Benedict Blames LGBTQ Acceptance on “Spiritual Power of the Antichrist”

A new biography by German journalist Peter Seeward, simply titled Benedict XVI The Biography: Volume One, contains a 2018 interview between the author and the pontiff, in which Benedict vented his concerns about the world’s moral decline, particularly as it relates to issues like abortion, reproductive technology, and (of course) gay marriage:

One hundred years ago, everybody would have considered it to be absurd to speak of a homosexual marriage. Today one is being excommunicated by society if one opposes it… Modern society is in the middle of formulating an anti-Christian creed, and if one opposes it, one is being punished by society with excommunication. The fear of this spiritual power of the Anti-Christ is then only more than natural.
​

Christian leader basically bashes LGBTQs and the societies that support them. Meh, big deal, right? But in the comments section, this (at least as of today) was voted the best....

"The former head of an international pedo ring, lecturing us on morality? Nah, [expletive] him"​

And the reply to that....

Yeah, so you people keep bringing up that international pedo ring, as if it were a big deal.
When meanwhile LGBT folks are having backyard barbecues and planning weddings. That's the real problem.​

I don't think I could have captured it any better. Between all the pedophile scandals in various Christian denominations and evangelicals' unwavering support of one of the most immoral people to ever lead the country, Christians have basically removed themselves from the category of "people who get to lecture us about morality".

 

[Heart2Soul]

Saw this today....

Ex-Pope Benedict Blames LGBTQ Acceptance on “Spiritual Power of the Antichrist”

A new biography by German journalist Peter Seeward, simply titled Benedict XVI The Biography: Volume One, contains a 2018 interview between the author and the pontiff, in which Benedict vented his concerns about the world’s moral decline, particularly as it relates to issues like abortion, reproductive technology, and (of course) gay marriage:

One hundred years ago, everybody would have considered it to be absurd to speak of a homosexual marriage. Today one is being excommunicated by society if one opposes it… Modern society is in the middle of formulating an anti-Christian creed, and if one opposes it, one is being punished by society with excommunication. The fear of this spiritual power of the Anti-Christ is then only more than natural.
​

Christian leader basically bashes LGBTQs and the societies that support them. Meh, big deal, right? But in the comments section, this (at least as of today) was voted the best....

"The former head of an international pedo ring, lecturing us on morality? Nah, [expletive] him"​

And the reply to that....

Yeah, so you people keep bringing up that international pedo ring, as if it were a big deal.
When meanwhile LGBT folks are having backyard barbecues and planning weddings. That's the real problem.​

I don't think I could have captured it any better. Between all the pedophile scandals in various Christian denominations and evangelicals' unwavering support of one of the most immoral people to ever lead the country, Christians have basically removed themselves from the category of "people who get to lecture us about morality".

Your point is very valid and cannot be denied.
There are corrupt churches and Christian's popping up everywhere....it's the apostasy....but God saved a remnant for Himself...I pray you will find that remnant and experience and witness a true disciple of Christ...you will know them by their fruit.

 

[Justadude]

Your point is very valid and cannot be denied.
There are corrupt churches and Christian's popping up everywhere....it's the apostasy....but God saved a remnant for Himself...I pray you will find that remnant and experience and witness a true disciple of Christ...you will know them by their fruit.

What do you mean by "God saved a remnant for Himself"? I don't want to incorrectly assume anything before I comment.

 

[Heart2Soul]

What do you mean by "God saved a remnant for Himself"? I don't want to incorrectly assume anything before I comment.

His "Church" those who are true disciples of Christ....they obey the commandment to love God and their neighbors. Who have overcome the world and are walking in His righteousness through Christ, who exemplify His Holiness, who knows what is His mind and His heart and seeks after His Will...
Those remnants.

 

[Justadude]

His "Church" those who are true disciples of Christ....they obey the commandment to love God and their neighbors. Who have overcome the world and are walking in His righteousness through Christ, who exemplify His Holiness, who knows what is His mind and His heart and seeks after His Will...
Those remnants.

Okay, thanks for explaining. Do you believe God took direct action to ensure the preservation of this true remnant church?

 

[Heart2Soul]

Okay, thanks for explaining. Do you believe God took direct action to ensure the preservation of this true remnant church?

I believe the Holy Spirit is the one who leads us to do His Will...

 

[Justadude]

I believe the Holy Spirit is the one who leads us to do His Will...

So God, via the Holy Spirit, directly acted to lead specific people to preserve the true remnant church?

 

[Heart2Soul]

So God, via the Holy Spirit, directly acted to lead specific people to preserve the true remnant church?

I would say that without the Holy Spirit it would be impossible to achieve a life of holiness.

 

[Justadude]

I would say that without the Holy Spirit it would be impossible to achieve a life of holiness.

I'm sorry, but your replies haven't been very helpful in answering the question I initially asked. Thanks anyways.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I'm sorry, but your replies haven't been very helpful in answering the question I initially asked. Thanks anyways.

It's possible I am not sure what the question is...would you ask again please.

 

[Heart2Soul]

I'm sorry, but your replies haven't been very helpful in answering the question I initially asked. Thanks anyways.

I went back and read it again and your emphasis is perhaps on direct action.....that is exactly what it is....and it started with Jesus crucified, the entrance of the Holy Spirit in His place and the distribution of His gifts to believers.

 

[Justadude]

I went back and read it again and your emphasis is perhaps on direct action.....that is exactly what it is....and it started with Jesus crucified, the entrance of the Holy Spirit in His place and the distribution of His gifts to believers.

To be honest, that still doesn't make sense to me in light of what I asked. I kinda feel like we're talking completely different languages.