Is Universalism true?

[FaithWillDo]

Hello to all,

My personal believe is that universal salvation has been made to all and for all, What does that mean? That Yahava, having sent the Word of God, made flesh named Yeshua, and Immanuel (which means God wish us.) Used the body which the Lord Yeshua gave up on the cross in order for sin to be imputed into an eternal offering that can never be rejected for it was one time and for all and a sacrifice which Yeshua had decide willingly to give up his life for the Father, and out love for allowing his will to be done, and also having faith that his Father would get him through as he traveled to his death, and after burial, in Sheol, for 3 days and 3 night, and raised again by his Father, who now adopts those who have faith, that there is more to this life, than just death, that would be that Jesus has conquered over death, and spiritual death, Satan, Hades (Sheol), the Beast, the False prophet, Sin,

What does this all entail? While I do not know what the eternal aspect of our life after this looks like, all that is known is that no man has ever seen nor heard, the things which God has in store for those who love him. There are implications founded in Revelation which do speak about Yahava, and the Lamb, the Kingdom of God and its material segments, and also that the Gates of the kingdom never close, and God never stops calling out, to reach people by the spirit. With also people who are I assume unbelievers who desired not to be with Yahava, who are outside the gates.

Even the Son of Man, the Nazarene, Jesus stated that there will be a resurrection of judgement (condemnation.) Also a resurrection of life. The writer of Hebrews writes about desiring a better resurrection that the normal, and Paul also mentions the same thing to the Philippians,. With this being something to consider it makes a lot of sense at least to me, which I may be wrong, a person who chooses to have faith daily trusting the Father who has adopted you and praying and praising and loving God, first, with all your mind, all your heart, all your soul is the most benefical for over all building up faith and one who decides to build up trust in the Lord, they will go and see what is said from him, like how those who worship God should worship God in spirit and truth. God seeks people to worship him in Spirit and truth, and he is pleased by a person having faith in looking to him.

Dear MatthewG,
No one can have faith in Christ or worship God in Spirit and in Truth until Christ comes to them and gives them the Holy Spirit.

With the Early Rain of the Spirit, a new believer is given a measure of faith but will remain carnally minded and spiritually blind. With the Latter Rain of the Spirit, their faith will be increased, their carnality destroyed and their spiritual blindness healed. Only then will the person be able to know Christ (Truth) and have the ability to walk by the Spirit. This is when they will worship God in Spirit and in Truth and be a "perfect man" (Eph 4:13).

Until Christ comes to a person and gives them both the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit, they will remain carnal and spiritually blind. For this reason, all mankind is at the mercy of Christ to come and save them. Salvation is not of works; it is the gift of God.

In this age, Christ is only saving the First Fruits of His harvest. They are the Elect and have been chosen for this honor since before they were born:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

The apostate church teaches that mankind has the ability to make a choice as to have faith in Christ or to reject Christ. Scripture teaches that the "natural man" can only reject Christ and that the Gospel is "foolishness" unto him. Unless Christ comes to the natural man and gives him the Spirit, the natural man will remain in his lost condition and will reject Christ. The natural man has no ability to make any other choice.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 2:14 But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

After Christ gives the natural man the Spirit of God, the only choice they will make is to call Jesus "Lord". This is how Christ saves mankind. And as I said, in this age, Christ is only giving the Early and Latter Rain of the Spirit to those who have been chosen to receive salvation now. That is why the Elect are called "blessed".

Salvation is not of "works" as the apostate church teaches. No one can come to Christ until the Father (via the Holy Spirit) draws him:

John 6:44 No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

And since the Father has given "all things" into Christ's hand, all mankind will come to Christ and Christ "will in no wise cast out":

John 3:35 The Father loveth the Son, and hath given all things into his hand.

John 6:37 All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

The apostate church believes that the First Fruits (who are harvested in this age) are the only ones who Christ will gather into the Kingdom of Heaven. But the sum of God's Word says that Christ will harvest all mankind and will not leave anyone to rot in the field. There is a time to harvest the First Fruits and there is a time to bring in the full harvest. When the time for the full harvest arrives (the end of the final age), the rest of mankind will be gathered into the Kingdom of Heaven and will join the First Fruits who were gathered earlier in this age.

Only then will this verse be testified to be true:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, TO BE TESTIFIED IN DUE TIME.

Joe

 

[face2face]

Dear face2face,
Here is what "bowels" means:

Jer 14:9 My bowels, my bowels! I am pained at my very heart; my heart maketh a noise in me; I cannot hold my peace, because thou hast heard, O my soul, the sound of the trumpet, the alarm of war.

The term "bowels" represents what is in the heart. It can mean "distress" as in the case of Judas and it can mean "affection" as in the case of Phi 1:8.

Here is a second witness to the meaning of "bowels" as it applies to Judas:

Lam 1:20 Behold, O LORD; for I am in distress: my bowels are troubled; mine heart is turned within me; for I have grievously rebelled: abroad the sword bereaveth, at home there is as death.

Clearly, the term "bowels" is synonymous with the term "heart".

Joe

Agree, so how do you apply this meaning to a man who hung himself and his bowels burst out of him?
What do you think the record is telling us?
F2F

 

[MatthewG]

All that is known Joe, is that those who look faithfully to God, God knows them, and they worship him in Spirit and truth. Thank you for sharing what you think about it with other scriptures that you shared.

Hello to all,

My personal believe is that universal salvation has been made to all and for all, What does that mean? That Yahava, having sent the Word of God, made flesh named Yeshua, and Immanuel (which means God wish us.) Used the body which the Lord Yeshua gave up on the cross in order for sin to be imputed into an eternal offering that can never be rejected for it was one time and for all and a sacrifice which Yeshua had decide willingly to give up his life for the Father, and out love for allowing his will to be done, and also having faith that his Father would get him through as he traveled to his death, and after burial, in Sheol, for 3 days and 3 night, and raised again by his Father, who now adopts those who have faith, that there is more to this life, than just death, that would be that Jesus has conquered over death, and spiritual death, Satan, Hades (Sheol), the Beast, the False prophet, Sin,

What does this all entail? While I do not know what the eternal aspect of our life after this looks like, all that is known is that no man has ever seen nor heard, the things which God has in store for those who love him. There are implications founded in Revelation which do speak about Yahava, and the Lamb, the Kingdom of God and its material segments, and also that the Gates of the kingdom never close, and God never stops calling out, to reach people by the spirit. With also people who are I assume unbelievers who desired not to be with Yahava, who are outside the gates.

Even the Son of Man, the Nazarene, Jesus stated that there will be a resurrection of judgement (condemnation.) Also a resurrection of life. The writer of Hebrews writes about desiring a better resurrection that the normal, and Paul also mentions the same thing to the Philippians,. With this being something to consider it makes a lot of sense at least to me, which I may be wrong, a person who chooses to have faith daily trusting the Father who has adopted you and praying and praising and loving God, first, with all your mind, all your heart, all your soul is the most benefical for over all building up faith and one who decides to build up trust in the Lord, they will go and see what is said from him, like how those who worship God should worship God in spirit and truth. God seeks people to worship him in Spirit and truth, and he is pleased by a person having faith in looking to him.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Agree, so how do you apply this meaning to a man who hung himself and his bowels burst out of him?
What do you think the record is telling us?
F2F

Dear face2face,
The detail of Judas' bowels spilling out is telling us that Judas was distressed to such a degree that he couldn't live with himself.

And since Judas' head was Satan, Judas fell on his head to show that the ways of Satan are death.

Again, the way Judas died has nothing to do with whether or not Judas will be eventually saved. The verses that I presented in my earlier post clearly teach that Judas will be forgiven just as all mankind will be forgiven.

Christ said this to those who crucified Him:

Luke 23:34 Then said Jesus, Father, forgive them; for they know not what they do. And they parted his raiment, and cast lots.

Since the pathway to salvation includes a time of falling away and becoming like Judas (a man of sin), we are all responsible for crucifying Christ afresh - and He forgives us, too.

When Christ is ready to save a fallen away believer who is also one of the Elect (Judas was not one of the Elect), Christ will increase their faith and cause them to repent of their "works". After a fallen away Elect believer repents, the pathway for Christ to come again will be made "straight". When Christ comes, He will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them. This is when Christ brings His salvation to His Elect.

Heb 9:28 So Christ was sacrificed once to take away the sins of many; and he will appear a second time, not to bear sin, but to bring salvation to those who are waiting for him.

Remember, the New Covenant is Grace through Faith. Christ will first give a fallen away Elect believer the necessary faith to make His pathway straight. After it has been made straight, Christ will come to them because of His grace. When He comes, He brings the Holy Spirit and salvation.

The Second Coming of Christ is not a one-time appearance to the world which happens at the end of this literal age. The Second Coming of Christ is a reoccurring spiritual event that will occur in the life of each Elect believer. The Apostles experienced the Second Coming of Christ on the Day of Pentecost. This was when Christ poured out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them and when they were saved.

The Apostles received the Early Rain of the Spirit earlier and this is evidenced by the fact that they recognized that Jesus was the Christ:

John 6:67 Then said Jesus unto the twelve, Will ye also go away? 68 Then Simon Peter answered him, Lord, to whom shall we go? thou hast the words of eternal life. 69 And we believe and are sure that thou art that Christ, the Son of the living God.

Martha was is also shown to have received the Early Rain of the Spirit:

John 11:27 She (Martha) saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

Even to this day, when a person first recognizes that Jesus is the Christ, we can know that they have received the Early Rain of the Spirit. Without the Early Rain, they could not make this confession:

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

It is at the time of receiving the Early Rain that Christ first appears to a person. When He does, Christ does so in the flesh. In other words, the new believer has only a carnal understanding of Christ (God's Word, scripture). This "first appearance" of Christ is what Paul was eluding to in Heb 9:28 quoted above. When Christ appears a "second time" to the person, He will appear to them spiritually. This happens because Christ pours out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them which will heal their spiritual blindness. It is at this point that the truth of God's Word (Christ) will open up to their understanding. This is the moment of salvation.

Joe

 

[face2face]

Dear face2face,
The detail of Judas' bowels spilling out is telling us that Judas was distressed to such a degree that he couldn't live with himself.

No, it tells you he had "no affection" for the things of God and His Christ, which is why the record describes them (innards) coming out of him.

The story of Mary anointing Jesus is a case in point

Mary's example is a memorial of love and devotion, highly valued - 300 pence
Judas's memorial is one of shame and contempt, miserable - 30 pieces

Question:

There were some who said to themselves indignantly, “Why was the ointment wasted like that? Mk 14:4.

Who do you think thought this of Mary's offering?
What did Judas do directly after this event?

Study homework:

Read Mark 14:10-11
Read John 12:4 names the offender!

Notice how John reveals his base motive! in Verse 6

He said this, not because he cared about the poor, (no bowels @FaithWillDo)! but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it. Jn 12:6.

Also, have you noticed how my posts consider's the record of Judas's worthless life? Judas’ whole life was a ruin, especially in view of wasted opportunities - he was the dead fly! Ecc 10:1.

You are like many self deceived Christians who don't read the Bible with care...the understanding is all there you just need to submit to it.

F2F

 

[FaithWillDo]

No, it tells you he had "no affection" for the things of God and His Christ, which is why the record describes them (innards) coming out of him.

The story of Mary anointing Jesus is a case in point

Mary's example is a memorial of love and devotion, highly valued - 300 pence
Judas's memorial is one of shame and contempt, miserable - 30 pieces

Question:

There were some who said to themselves indignantly, “Why was the ointment wasted like that? Mk 14:4.

Who do you think thought this of Mary's offering?
What did Judas do directly after this event?

Study homework:

Read Mark 14:10-11
Read John 12:4 names the offender!

Notice how John reveals his base motive! in Verse 6

He said this, not because he cared about the poor, (no bowels @FaithWillDo)! but because he was a thief, and having charge of the moneybag he used to help himself to what was put into it. Jn 12:6.

Also, have you noticed how my posts consider's the record of Judas's worthless life? Judas’ whole life was a ruin, especially in view of wasted opportunities - he was the dead fly! Ecc 10:1.

You are like many self deceived Christians who don't read the Bible with care...the understanding is all there you just need to submit to it.

F2F

Dear F2F,

After doing some more study, the Lord showed me the truth that is taught by Judas' death.

Here is what the Lord showed me:

Judas is a type for a man of sin.

The man of sin is a fallen away believer who has the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ along with the indwelling of the Early Rain of the Holy Spirit. The man of sin is deceived by Satan and is following the ways of Satan instead of Christ. In other words, instead of having Christ as their head, they unknowingly have Satan.

Judas' death is a "type" that teaches the judgment portion of the conversion process. The judgment portion comes to a person after they have been "born again" by receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Also at that time, the person's spiritual blindness is healed.

I showed you the scriptures which show that the bowels represent the heart. And like the heart, the bowels can contain good and bad.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies (a heart for mercy), kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion (does not have a heart of compassion) from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

After Judas saw what he had done, Judas repented of doing it:

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, WHEN HE SAW that he was condemned, REPENTED HIMSELF, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

The time when Judas "saw" what He had done types the time when a fallen away believer has their spiritual blindness healed just after having received the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain, a new child of God (new vessel) is born. It is at that time the believer will "see" what they have done to Christ just as Judas did. After they "see", they, too, will repent. Judgment of the man of sin is now ready to fall.

Conversion: the birth of the child of God (Latter Rain) within a person and the destruction of the man of sin (judgment, Day of the Lord) within the same person.

After a person is "born again", the man of sin (old vessel) will be judged and destroyed.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

This is the spiritual process which takes place within a person when they are converted. The new vessel is created and the old vessel is destroyed.

Since Judas represents a fallen away believer who has become a man of sin, his death represents the judgment portion of conversion.

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels (heart) gushed out.

Here is what Judas' repentance and death represent:

The "field" represents the world which is carnal and under Satan's control.

The number thirty is understood as 3 x 10. The number three represents a spiritual process. The number ten represents completeness. Silver represents atonement/redemption. When Judas repented and cast the thirty pieces of silver into the house of God, it represented the complete spiritual process of Judas' redemption.

Zech 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter (Christ): a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

When Judas fell headlong to the ground after hanging himself, it represented the destruction of his head who was Satan.

Goliath is also a "type" for the man of sin to whom judgment comes. That is why David beheaded him with a sword (represents God's Word, Christ). Goliath's head represents Satan who the man of sin follows.

John the Baptist is also a "type" for the man of sin. He, too, was beheaded to "type" the destruction of Satan's rule over him. John confirmed this by saying:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

During Judas' death, Judas' bowels also gushed out to represent Christ taking away his stony heart (bowels) so that Christ will be able to give him a new heart of flesh.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

To summarize:

Judas' death is a "type" for the judgment of the man of sin. The man of sin is a fallen away believer who has the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ.

Judas was a "type" for the man of sin:

Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The son of perdition is a name for the man of sin:

2Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The man of sin is revealed when a fallen away believer is given "eyes that can see". With these "eyes", they will see that they are a man of sin just as Judas was. The moment when the man of sin is revealed to the fallen away believer, the believer will repent just as Judas did. Judgment (the Day of the Lord) will then fall on the man of sin and destroy him. But from that death, the believer will have a new head (Christ) and a new heart of flesh. This will make the person a child of God.

Joe

 

[Pierac]

Are you a moron or a liar?

I never said or even indicated anything of the sort.

Neither... Yet you still think the wages for sin is not Death... But burning for eterinity... Is Jesus burning in hell for your sins... I think NOT!!!

So What does your being a moron or liar have to do with Anything here????

You a suck up to what your told....

1. Now Mr BIG shot.... You explaine to ALL of us here.... What is the wage for SIN.... death as scripture teaches or burning for eterinity....

Time to Shine ScottA... Let us know.... What do you believe... Did God lie to Adam... or are you just a follower of men???

Sux to be you about now... waiting to respond to a Man
Mr no Clue.... girley man... Yea... the Indian Ttribes from America totally accepted a Jesus ther never heard from... thus like you disappear/suxs

 

[face2face]

Dear F2F,

After doing some more study, the Lord showed me the truth that is taught by Judas' death.

Here is what the Lord showed me:

Judas is a type for a man of sin.

As was Cain, Lamech, and Ishmael

The man of sin is a fallen away believer who has the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ along with the indwelling of the Early Rain of the Holy Spirit.

The man of sin is deceived by Satan and is following the ways of Satan instead of Christ. In other words, instead of having Christ as their head, they unknowingly have Satan.

Judas' death is a "type" that teaches the judgment portion of the conversion process. The judgment portion comes to a person after they have been "born again" by receiving the Latter Rain of the Spirit. Also at that time, the person's spiritual blindness is healed.

I showed you the scriptures which show that the bowels represent the heart. And like the heart, the bowels can contain good and bad.

Col 3:12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies (a heart for mercy), kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;

1John 3:17 But whoso hath this world's good, and seeth his brother have need, and shutteth up his bowels of compassion (does not have a heart of compassion) from him, how dwelleth the love of God in him?

After Judas saw what he had done, Judas repented of doing it:

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, WHEN HE SAW that he was condemned, REPENTED HIMSELF, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders,

The time when Judas "saw" what He had done types the time when a fallen away believer has their spiritual blindness healed just after having received the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain, a new child of God (new vessel) is born. It is at that time the believer will "see" what they have done to Christ just as Judas did. After they "see", they, too, will repent. Judgment of the man of sin is now ready to fall.

Conversion: the birth of the child of God (Latter Rain) within a person and the destruction of the man of sin (judgment, Day of the Lord) within the same person.

After a person is "born again", the man of sin (old vessel) will be judged and destroyed.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

This is the spiritual process which takes place within a person when they are converted. The new vessel is created and the old vessel is destroyed.

Since Judas represents a fallen away believer who has become a man of sin, his death represents the judgment portion of conversion.

Mat 27:3 Then Judas, which had betrayed him, when he saw that he was condemned, repented himself, and brought again the thirty pieces of silver to the chief priests and elders, 4 Saying, I have sinned in that I have betrayed the innocent blood. And they said, What is that to us? see thou to that. 5 And he cast down the pieces of silver in the temple, and departed, and went and hanged himself.

Acts 1:18 Now this man purchased a field with the reward of iniquity; and falling headlong, he burst asunder in the midst, and all his bowels (heart) gushed out.

Here is what Judas' repentance and death represent:

The "field" represents the world which is carnal and under Satan's control.

The number thirty is understood as 3 x 10. The number three represents a spiritual process. The number ten represents completeness. Silver represents atonement/redemption. When Judas repented and cast the thirty pieces of silver into the house of God, it represented the complete spiritual process of Judas' redemption.

Zech 11:13 And the LORD said unto me, Cast it unto the potter (Christ): a goodly price that I was prised at of them. And I took the thirty pieces of silver, and cast them to the potter in the house of the LORD.

When Judas fell headlong to the ground after hanging himself, it represented the destruction of his head who was Satan.

Goliath is also a "type" for the man of sin to whom judgment comes. That is why David beheaded him with a sword (represents God's Word, Christ). Goliath's head represents Satan who the man of sin follows.

John the Baptist is also a "type" for the man of sin. He, too, was beheaded to "type" the destruction of Satan's rule over him. John confirmed this by saying:

John 3:30 He must increase, but I must decrease.

During Judas' death, Judas' bowels also gushed out to represent Christ taking away his stony heart (bowels) so that Christ will be able to give him a new heart of flesh.

Eze 36:26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

To summarize:

Judas' death is a "type" for the judgment of the man of sin. The man of sin is a fallen away believer who has the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ.

Judas was a "type" for the man of sin:

Luke 22:3 Then entered Satan into Judas surnamed Iscariot, being of the number of the twelve.

John 17:12 While I was with them in the world, I kept them in thy name: those that thou gavest me I have kept, and none of them is lost, but the son of perdition; that the scripture might be fulfilled.

The son of perdition is a name for the man of sin:

2Thes 2:3 Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

The man of sin is revealed when a fallen away believer is given "eyes that can see". With these "eyes", they will see that they are a man of sin just as Judas was. The moment when the man of sin is revealed to the fallen away believer, the believer will repent just as Judas did. Judgment (the Day of the Lord) will then fall on the man of sin and destroy him. But from that death, the believer will have a new head (Christ) and a new heart of flesh. This will make the person a child of God.

Joe

Wow Joe, you have a lot going on there! I wish I had the time to tackle it all but I am preparing for a series of studies in Galatians and there is so much to unpack and repack in your post, I'm fearful it may never end!

Needless to say, Judas is presented as a man who only ever made poor decisions with what he was given.

He paid the ultimate price as one having lost his salvation.

F2F

 

[FaithWillDo]

As was Cain, Lamech, and Ishmael


Wow Joe, you have a lot going on there! I wish I had the time to tackle it all but I am preparing for a series of studies in Galatians and there is so much to unpack and repack in your post, I'm fearful it may never end!

Needless to say, Judas is presented as a man who only ever made poor decisions with what he was given.

He paid the ultimate price as one having lost his salvation.

F2F

Dear F2F,
You said:
As was Cain, Lamech, and Ishmael.

Yes, and Esau, too.

As for Judas, we need to remember that he will "love much" because he will be "forgiven much" someday.

This verse below is talking about Jacob and Esau:

Rom 9:11 (For the children being not yet born, neither having done any good or evil, that the purpose of God according to election might stand, not of works, but of him that calleth.

And like Esau, Judas fulfilled one of the purposes of God. Don't think that you, me or anyone else wouldn't have fulfilled that purpose, too, if God had put us in Judas' shoes.

God's Word says that is not within man to direct his own steps:

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

But in the end, both Esau and Judas will be saved by Christ. I long to see that day arrive and I am confident that Christ does, too. And it will come to pass because it is God's "will" for it to happen:

Acts 3:20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you: 21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

Joe

 

[face2face]

As for Judas, we need to remember that he will "love much" because he will be "forgiven much" someday.

No, like Cain, and many others they will remain in the ground for eternity (after being judged).

F2F

 

[FaithWillDo]

No, like Cain, and many others they will remain in the ground for eternity (after being judged).

F2F

Dear F2F,
After being judged, Cain and the others will be redeemed:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Your judgment is like mankind's judgment which only punishes. Christ's judgment does not omit justice, mercy and faith:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Read Joel chapter 2. The setting is the final age. Christ's army is made up of the Elect who are reigning with Him. But before the lost perish, Christ will have pity upon them and He will give them the gift of the Holy Spirit, just as He did for the Elect of this age:

Joel 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

The Early and Latter Rains will be poured out and they will all be saved.

This is how Christ will give mercy and faith to those being judged by the Law. Justice will be served by the destruction of the person's carnal spiritual nature. After it is destroyed, the newly born again person will be only governed by the spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. This is how Christ converts a child of the devil (man of sin) into a child of God. Without judgment, mankind could not be saved.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Christ will not pervert judgment by omitting justice, mercy and faith.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

Neither... Yet you still think the wages for sin is not Death... But burning for eterinity... Is Jesus burning in hell for your sins... I think NOT!!!

So What does your being a moron or liar have to do with Anything here????

You a suck up to what your told....

1. Now Mr BIG shot.... You explaine to ALL of us here.... What is the wage for SIN.... death as scripture teaches or burning for eterinity....

Time to Shine ScottA... Let us know.... What do you believe... Did God lie to Adam... or are you just a follower of men???

Sux to be you about now... waiting to respond to a Man
Mr no Clue.... girley man... Yea... the Indian Ttribes from America totally accepted a Jesus ther never heard from... thus like you disappear/suxs

Indeed, only a fool would accuse me of thinking that the wages of sin is not death. I said nothing of the sort.

Even so, it is written:

John 11:25​

Jesus said to her, “I am the resurrection and the life. He who believes in Me, though he may die, he shall live.​

 

[face2face]

Dear F2F,
After being judged, Cain and the others will be redeemed:

Isa 1:27 Zion shall be redeemed with judgment, and her converts with righteousness.

Psa 33:5 He loveth righteousness and judgment: the earth is full of the goodness of the LORD.

Your judgment is like mankind's judgment which only punishes. Christ's judgment does not omit justice, mercy and faith:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Read Joel chapter 2. The setting is the final age. Christ's army is made up of the Elect who are reigning with Him. But before the lost perish, Christ will have pity upon them and He will give them the gift of the Holy Spirit, just as He did for the Elect of this age:

Joel 2:18 Then will the LORD be jealous for his land, and pity his people.

Joel 2:23 Be glad then, ye children of Zion, and rejoice in the LORD your God: for he hath given you the former rain moderately, and he will cause to come down for you the rain, the former rain, and the latter rain in the first month.

The Early and Latter Rains will be poured out and they will all be saved.

This is how Christ will give mercy and faith to those being judged by the Law. Justice will be served by the destruction of the person's carnal spiritual nature. After it is destroyed, the newly born again person will be only governed by the spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit. This is how Christ converts a child of the devil (man of sin) into a child of God. Without judgment, mankind could not be saved.

Prov 28:5 Evil men understand not judgment: but they that seek the LORD understand all things.

Job 34:12 Yea, surely God will not do wickedly, neither will the Almighty pervert judgment.

Christ will not pervert judgment by omitting justice, mercy and faith.

Joe

This is a foolish unlearned response.

God is doing what Peter has told you about the time God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people for himself. Acts 15:14

Not all, certainly not Cain and Judas.

F2F

 

[FaithWillDo]

This is a foolish unlearned response.

God is doing what Peter has told you about the time God first visited the Gentiles to take from them a people for himself. Acts 15:14

Not all, certainly not Cain and Judas.

F2F

Dear F2F,
Your overall understanding is deeply flawed. The verse you quoted is only talking about the Gentile Elect who are being saved in this age. Most of the teachings of scripture only apply to the early harvest of the Elect. But there is still enough scripture which teaches on the harvest at the end of the year to give us a proper understanding of Christ's overall plan to save mankind.

When the harvest at the end of the year arrives, Christ and the Elect will make this call to them:

Rev 22:17 And the Spirit and the Bride say, Come. And let him that heareth say, Come. And let him that is athirst come. And whosoever will, let him take the water of life freely.

Why would Christ and the Elect make this call if Christ had no plans to save the rest of mankind in the final age?

Christ "typed" this same call to the lost of the final age when He secretly attended the Feast of Tabernacles:

John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, if any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink. 38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

When you study scripture, you must divide the Word by the harvest of First Fruits (this age) and the harvest at the end of the year (final age).

The Feast of Weeks (First Fruits) is a shadow of the harvesting of the Elect in this age. The Feast of Ingathering (Tabernacles) is a shadow of the final and great harvest of mankind which occurs at the end of the ages (the consummation).

Exo 34:22 And thou shalt observe the feast of weeks, of the firstfruits of wheat harvest, and the feast of ingathering at the year's end.

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 BUT EVERY MAN IN HIS OWN ORDER: 1). Christ the first fruits; 2). afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 3). Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power.

Your beliefs are omitting the harvest which comes at the end of the year; at the "consummation".

Why would Paul even bring up the subject of there being an "order" if only the Elect (a very small portion of mankind) are going to be saved? In this scripture, Paul is talking about 100% of mankind (all who have died in Adam) and the order of their salvation. You are not seeing the harvest that comes at the consummation (end of the year).

Are you so indoctrinated in your beliefs that you have no ability to learn from scripture?

You should pray for understanding. God is the giver of "good gifts":

Luke 11:9 And I say unto you, Ask, and it shall be given you; seek, and ye shall find; knock, and it shall be opened unto you. 10 For every one that asketh receiveth; and he that seeketh findeth; and to him that knocketh it shall be opened. 11 If a son shall ask bread of any of you that is a father, will he give him a stone? or if he ask a fish, will he for a fish give him a serpent? 12 Or if he shall ask an egg, will he offer him a scorpion? 13 If ye then, being evil, know how to give good gifts unto your children: how much more shall your heavenly Father give the Holy Spirit to them that ask him?

This scripture is talking about the Elect when they only have the Early Rain of the Spirit. When Christ is ready to give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit, Christ will cause them to pray for it. The Latter Rain is what gives an Elect believer "eyes that can see". Without those "eyes", Christ (God's Word) will remain "veiled" by the cloud and will not "appear" (Heb 9:28).

Joe

 

[Big Boy Johnson]

Again, the way Judas died has nothing to do with whether or not Judas will be eventually saved.

Judas was lost according to scripture and will never bee saved although he was in the beginning before he allowed the devil to deceive him much like eve did in the garden.

Those that self murder (commit suicide) are in violation of these biblical truths:

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

*Those that self murder failed to abide In Christ until
the end of their lives, therefore they will not be saved

John 15:1-6
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 Corinthians 3:16,17
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man destroys the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.

What is the wage for SIN.... death as scripture teaches or burning for eterinity....

The wages for sin is separation from God... which is spiritual death and if one dies in that condition without repenting of their sin and coming back to the Lord like the prodigal sin did... they they will in fact burn in hell for all eternity.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Judas was lost according to scripture and will never bee saved although he was in the beginning before he allowed the devil to deceive him much like eve did in the garden.

Those that self murder (commit suicide) are in violation of these biblical truths:

Matthew 24:13
But he that shall endure unto the end, the same shall be saved.

*Those that self murder failed to abide In Christ until
the end of their lives, therefore they will not be saved

John 15:1-6
I am the true vine, and my Father is the husbandman.
Every branch in me that beareth not fruit he taketh away: and every branch that beareth fruit, he purgeth it, that it may bring forth more fruit.
Now ye are clean through the word which I have spoken unto you.
Abide in me, and I in you. As the branch cannot bear fruit of itself, except it abide in the vine; no more can ye, except ye abide in me.
I am the vine, ye are the branches: He that abideth in me, and I in him, the same bringeth forth much fruit: for without me ye can do nothing.
If a man abide not in me, he is cast forth as a branch, and is withered; and men gather them, and cast them into the fire, and they are burned.

Romans 11:22
Behold therefore the goodness and severity of God: on them which fell, severity; but toward thee, goodness, if thou continue in his goodness: otherwise thou also shalt be cut off.

1 Corinthians 15:2
By which also ye are saved, if ye keep in memory what I preached unto you, unless ye have believed in vain.

Colossians 1:23
If ye continue in the faith grounded and settled, and be not moved away from the hope of the gospel, which ye have heard, and which was preached to every creature which is under heaven

Hebrews 3:6
But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end.

Hebrews 3:14
For we are made partakers of Christ, if we hold the beginning of our confidence stedfast unto the end;

Hebrews 12:25
See that ye refuse not him that speaketh. For if they escaped not who refused him that spake on earth, much more shall not we escape, if we turn away from him that speaketh from heaven:

1 John 5:4
For whatsoever is born of God overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith.

1 Corinthians 3:16,17
Know ye not that ye are the temple of God, and that the Spirit of God dwelleth in you?
If any man destroys the temple of God, him shall God destroy; for the temple of God is holy, which temple ye are.




The wages for sin is separation from God... which is spiritual death and if one dies in that condition without repenting of their sin and coming back to the Lord like the prodigal sin did... they they will in fact burn in hell for all eternity.

Dear BigBoyJohnson,
You need to read my response to Face2Face immediately above your post. What I said applies to you, too.

The verses you quoted are mostly talking about the salvation of the Elect in this age. You are completely missing the harvest that comes at the end of the year.

Judas will not be in the harvest of First Fruits. He died in his sins and will be judged by the Christ upon his resurrection. But during his judgment, Christ will have pity upon him and save him at the end of the ages (Joel 2:18, Mat 23:23).

Joe

 

[face2face]

Dear F2F,
Your overall understanding is deeply flawed.

Joe

Joe, UR is "the" most erroneous doctrine in all Christianity as it totally removes the theme of judgement, especially of division between light and darkness; division between sheep and goats; wheat and tares and so on. You have created a god in your own image and what happens when you discover this god does not exist? Correct, you will do precisely to your faith what Judas did you to his neck! Many have gone that way Joe. This UR teaching has spread like cancer through this forum.

In all your responses do you know how many times you have actually spoken to the the account of Judas's betrayal? Not once! You were shown the meaning of the bowels and how it represents the spiritual affection of which Judas had none for God or Christ, only empty regret.

You were shown the word repent is not the change of heart and mind but merely a feeling sorry for ones self.

You were shown the Lords words who said it was better for than man to have never been born such will his end be.

So quoting Revelation, Corinthians etc will not help you at all until you deal with the record you so clearly want to run from.

Talk to me about the Potters Field.

Talk to me about Ephes-Dammim.

Talk to me about the field of blood which Jeremiah spoke of.

You wont because you simply can't! You can't hear! You won't hear.

F2F

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe, UR is "the" most erroneous doctrine in all Christianity as it totally removes the theme of judgement, especially of division between light and darkness; division between sheep and goats; wheat and tares and so on. You have created a god in your own image and what happens when you discover this god does not exist? Correct, you will do precisely to your faith what Judas did you to his neck! Many have gone that way Joe. This UR teaching has spread like cancer through this forum.

In all your responses do you know how many times you have actually spoken to the the account of Judas's betrayal? Not once! You were shown the meaning of the bowels and how it represents the spiritual affection of which Judas had none for God or Christ, only empty regret.

You were shown the word repent is not the change of heart and mind but merely a feeling sorry for ones self.

You were shown the Lords words who said it was better for than man to have never been born such will his end be.

So quoting Revelation, Corinthians etc will not help you at all until you deal with the record you so clearly want to run from.

Talk to me about the Potters Field.

Talk to me about Ephes-Dammim.

Talk to me about the field of blood which Jeremiah spoke of.

You wont because you simply can't! You can't hear! You won't hear.

F2F

Dear F2F,
Before the ages come to an end, Christ will pour out His love and mercy upon all mankind - this includes Judas.

Your judgment of Judas is no better than the judgment displayed by the Pharisees. When Christ judges the lost in the final age, He will not forget His love and mercy:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Why do you believe that Christ will judge the lost as the Pharisees do? Do you believe that Christ is incapable of saving some people?

Scripture strongly disagree with you:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Why do you believe this scripture below will never come to pass? Where is your faith to believe that Christ will accomplish all that His Father gave Him to do?

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Also, you are operating under the "works" based belief system of the apostate church. Under that system, you believe that mankind has a free will ability to make a choice for Christ - but mankind has no such ability. Only God the Father has a free will and He alone directs mankind's steps.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

When anyone does make a choice for Christ, it is ONLY because Christ has given the person the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

When Christ is ready to save a person, all He has to do is give them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. In this age, Christ is only saving those who have been chosen for this honor from the foundation of the world. Don't confuse the time of the early harvest as being the only time Christ will perform His saving work within mankind.

The ages where established for creating many new children of God. This is the meaning of life that seems to elude most people. Until Christ finishes His work, the ages will not come to an end. Only after the last person is saved will Christ stop working. Christ's reign will then come to an end and God the Father will be "all in all" (1Cor 15:20-28). However, you do NOT believe this day will ever arrive. Where is your faith?

The scriptures I have presented above directly contradict your beliefs. Doesn't that make you a little concerned that you are still under the deceptions of Satan that Christ mentions in the verse below?

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Satan's deceptions are so powerful that no one is spared from them before they receive the Latter Rain. The Apostles were spared only because they received the Latter Rain prior to the spirit of anti-Christ coming into the world. But after Paul's death, Satan utterly devoured the unconverted believers in the church. Since that time, nothing has changed. The churches of the world have all been deceived by Satan and are following another Jesus, another gospel and have another spirit within them.

After Christ comes to a fallen away believer the second time, He will heal their spiritual blindness. After the believer is able to see, the man of sin will be revealed to them and they will find that they are this man of sin. Until a believer can see that they have been under Satan's deception in the church, they are going remain lost. This is one of the signs that Christ mentioned that will occur just before judgment falls on an Elect believer to convert them:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This scripture above is referring to Lot and the "type" that he provided concerning as to when the Elect are judged and converted. When the Elect see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (they are God's temple), they can know that judgment is about to fall as it did on Sodom (worsened carnal nature/Great Harlot) and Gomorrah (the man of sin/spirit of anti-Christ).

Mat 24:40 Then shall two (one believer, one flesh) be in the field; the one (the man of sin) shall be taken, and the other left (the new child of God). 41 Two women (one believer, one flesh) shall be grinding at the mill; the one (the Great Harlot) shall be taken, and the other left (the new child of God).

If a believer has been converted, they will have seen the Abomination of Desolation and the Man of Sin will have been revealed to them. If they haven't seen them, they have not been converted but are still under Satan's deception in the apostate church.

Have you seen the Abomination of Desolation yet? I know you haven't because you are still preaching "another gospel" which blasphemes the name of Christ to this world.

Joe

 

[face2face]

Dear F2F,
Before the ages come to an end, Christ will pour out His love and mercy upon all mankind - this includes Judas.

Your judgment of Judas is no better than the judgment displayed by the Pharisees. When Christ judges the lost in the final age, He will not forget His love and mercy:

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

Why do you believe that Christ will judge the lost as the Pharisees do? Do you believe that Christ is incapable of saving some people?

Scripture strongly disagree with you:

Dan 4:35 And all the inhabitants of the earth are reputed as nothing; and he doeth according to his will in the army of the heavens, and among the inhabitants of the earth; and none can stay his hand, or say unto him, What doest thou?

Why do you believe this scripture below will never come to pass? Where is your faith to believe that Christ will accomplish all that His Father gave Him to do?

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

Also, you are operating under the "works" based belief system of the apostate church. Under that system, you believe that mankind has a free will ability to make a choice for Christ - but mankind has no such ability. Only God the Father has a free will and He alone directs mankind's steps.

Jer 10:23 I know, Jehovah, that the way of man is not his own; it is not in a man that walketh to direct his steps.

When anyone does make a choice for Christ, it is ONLY because Christ has given the person the Early Rain of the Spirit.

Rom 3:10 As it is written, there is none righteous, no, not one: 11 There is none that understandeth, there is none that seeketh after God.

1Cor 12:3 Wherefore I give you to understand, that no man speaking by the Spirit of God calleth Jesus accursed: and that no man can say that Jesus is the Lord, but by the Holy Spirit.

When Christ is ready to save a person, all He has to do is give them the Early and Latter Rains of the Spirit. In this age, Christ is only saving those who have been chosen for this honor from the foundation of the world. Don't confuse the time of the early harvest as being the only time Christ will perform His saving work within mankind.

The ages where established for creating many new children of God. This is the meaning of life that seems to elude most people. Until Christ finishes His work, the ages will not come to an end. Only after the last person is saved will Christ stop working. Christ's reign will then come to an end and God the Father will be "all in all" (1Cor 15:20-28). However, you do NOT believe this day will ever arrive. Where is your faith?

The scriptures I have presented above directly contradict your beliefs. Doesn't that make you a little concerned that you are still under the deceptions of Satan that Christ mentions in the verse below?

Mat 24:24 For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect.

Satan's deceptions are so powerful that no one is spared from them before they receive the Latter Rain. The Apostles were spared only because they received the Latter Rain prior to the spirit of anti-Christ coming into the world. But after Paul's death, Satan utterly devoured the unconverted believers in the church. Since that time, nothing has changed. The churches of the world have all been deceived by Satan and are following another Jesus, another gospel and have another spirit within them.

After Christ comes to a fallen away believer the second time, He will heal their spiritual blindness. After the believer is able to see, the man of sin will be revealed to them and they will find that they are this man of sin. Until a believer can see that they have been under Satan's deception in the church, they are going remain lost. This is one of the signs that Christ mentioned that will occur just before judgment falls on an Elect believer to convert them:

Mat 24:15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand 16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:

This scripture above is referring to Lot and the "type" that he provided concerning as to when the Elect are judged and converted. When the Elect see the Abomination of Desolation that previously occurred within themselves (they are God's temple), they can know that judgment is about to fall as it did on Sodom (worsened carnal nature/Great Harlot) and Gomorrah (the man of sin/spirit of anti-Christ).

Mat 24:40 Then shall two (one believer, one flesh) be in the field; the one (the man of sin) shall be taken, and the other left (the new child of God). 41 Two women (one believer, one flesh) shall be grinding at the mill; the one (the Great Harlot) shall be taken, and the other left (the new child of God).

If a believer has been converted, they will have seen the Abomination of Desolation and the Man of Sin will have been revealed to them. If they haven't seen them, they have not been converted but are still under Satan's deception in the apostate church.

Have you seen the Abomination of Desolation yet? I know you haven't because you are still preaching "another gospel" which blasphemes the name of Christ to this world.

Joe

A great deal of confusion in there Joe! To unpack it and to unravel your deception would take many posts. Again, you are not able to speak to the record of Judas's betrayal and for good reason! Your posts speak more about you projecting your own gospel, rather than allowing the Word of God to teach you. No doubt you can feel this keenly from our chats - yours is forceful and erratic.

Try speaking just to this verse only

The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born. Matt 26:24

The woe, for you, is salvation?
If it was better for such a man not to have been born, will his life be better or worse for having betrayed the Lord?

Lets see if you can restrain yourself?

F2F

 

[FaithWillDo]

A great deal of confusion in there Joe! To unpack it and to unravel your deception would take many posts. Again, you are not able to speak to the record of Judas's betrayal and for good reason! Your posts speak more about you projecting your own gospel, rather than allowing the Word of God to teach you. No doubt you can feel this keenly from our chats - yours is forceful and erratic.

Try speaking just to this verse only

The Son of Man goes as it is written of him, but woe to that man by whom the Son of Man is betrayed! It would have been better for that man if he had not been born. Matt 26:24

The woe, for you, is salvation?
If it was better for such a man not to have been born, will his life be better or worse for having betrayed the Lord?

Lets see if you can restrain yourself?

F2F

Dear F2F,
You are relying on one verse that you greatly misunderstand and at the same time, you are ignoring all the many verses of scripture which contradict your beliefs.

Judas is a "type" for a believer who has the spirit of anti-Christ within him. When this happens, the believer falls away and becomes a Man of Sin. This is the "birth" that Christ is referring to that would have been better not to have ever occurred.

Note: When a person receives the Holy Spirit, Christ calls this event as being “born again”. Since this is true, it should be no surprise that Christ also refers to the event of a person receiving the spirit of anti-Christ as a new birth, too.

Here is where Christ teaches how a new believer becomes a Man of Sin just as Judas became:

Mat 12:43 When the unclean spirit is gone out of a man, he walketh through dry places, seeking rest, and findeth none. 44 Then he saith, I will return into my house from whence I came out; and when he is come, he findeth it empty, swept, and garnished. 45 Then goeth he, and taketh with himself SEVEN other spirits more wicked than himself, and they enter in and dwell there: and the last state of that man is worse than the first. Even so shall it be also unto this wicked generation.

The spiritual symbol of an unclean spirit represents a spirit which teaches Satan's false truth through lies and deceptions.

Since a new believer remains spiritually blind (Mark 8:21-25) after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit, they cannot replace their worldly false beliefs with the truth of Christ. ONE unclean spirit leaves but comes back with SEVEN more. The number "seven" represents perfection. In this case, the number seven represents the perfection of Satan's lies/deceptions which come to a believer by the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. Now, instead of ONE unclean spirit within the believer, they now have EIGHT. The number eight is a spiritual symbol which represents a new spiritual condition. In this case, the new spiritual condition is worse than the first.

This "worse than the first" spiritual condition causes the believer to become a False Prophet, a Man of Sin, a Minister of Satan and a Seven Headed Beast with Ten Horns & Crowns.

After Paul's death (departing), the spirit of anti-Christ came into the church and devoured every believer. Since that time, all new believers who have received the Early Rain of the Spirit will likewise be devoured by Satan via the spirit of anti-Christ. They will all be birthed as a Man of Sin. This includes the Elect, too. That is why when Christ returns to the fallen away Elect a "second time" to give them the Latter Rain of the Spirit, He comes as a thief in the night.

1Thes 5:2 For yourselves know perfectly that the Day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. 3 For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape.

The reason the fallen away Elect believers say "peace and safety" is because they believe that they are following the true Christ and are saved. But they are utterly deceived by Satan and are following him (another Jesus) instead of Christ. The term "night" represents that the believer is spiritually blind and is not walking in Truth (light). When Christ comes to a fallen away Elect believer, He brings judgment to the Man of Sin who has a worsened carnal nature and the indwelling of the spirit of anti-Christ. But before judgment falls, Christ will pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit upon them which will birth a new child of God who will immediately be gathered to heaven (spiritually speaking). After the believer has fled to the mountains (heaven), judgment will fall to rid the believer of their worsened carnal nature (Great Harlot) and the spirit of anti-Christ (Man of Sin).

Revelation chapter 19 depicts these same events. The new birth occurs with the Marriage of the Lamb. The Marriage Supper will then occur in which Christ will feed the newly born again believer the truth of God's Word. With the truth within them, they will "see" the Abomination of Desolation and the Man of Sin will be revealed. Once this happens, judgment will fall. The newly born child of God will then ride upon their white horse with Christ leading the way to destroy the believer's carnal nature and spirit of anti-Christ.

Paul describes the event this way:

2Thes 2:8 And then shall that Wicked (Man of Sin) be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming:

The Man of Sin is destroyed by the "brightness" of the truth the believer now understands. This is how the believer is converted. The old vessel is destroyed by truth and the new vessel is created by the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain).

As I said, when Christ said that it would have been better for Judas to have never been born is only referring to Judas' birth as a Man of Sin. This same "birth" also applies to the apostate church who have likewise been born as a Man of Sin.

In this age, the Elect are saved prior to judgment coming so they do not experience the wrath of God during their time of judgment. However, for most of the "church" (the "many"), since they have not been chosen for salvation in this age, they will die in their sins and be resurrected to judgment. They will then be "cast into the Lake of Fire" (symbol for Christ's judgment) before they are saved. In the Lake of Fire, they will suffer wrath and torment during their time of judgment. But before they perish, Christ will have mercy upon them and give them the Holy Spirit which will produce the new child of God. And as with the Elect, the new child of God will be caught up to Heaven to dwell with Christ. This is how "mercy and faith" are served. Judgment will then continue on the "chaff" (Man of Sin, carnal nature) until it is destroyed. And this is how justice is served.

Mat 23:23 Woe unto you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! for ye pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have omitted the weightier matters of the law: justice, mercy, and faith: these ought ye to have done, and not to leave the other undone.

You would do well to believe this verse above.

In the end, Christ will have saved all mankind, including Judas and the apostate church. Christ will then deliver up the Kingdom of Heaven to the Father and God will be "all in all". This is true because all mankind will then have the indwelling of the Father's Spirit.

Until Christ comes you (in this age or the final age), you will remain spiritually blind and utterly deceived by Satan. You have no free will ability to do otherwise. You will continue preaching another gospel which is based upon the works of man rather than faith in Christ to do all the works. Christ is the Savior and He does the saving. Mankind contributes nothing - even our confession of faith comes from the work of Christ that He does within us. We have nothing to boast about concerning our salvation.

Joe