Is Universalism true?

[Ritajanice]

(Matthew 22:14; John 6:37, 44, 65; 8:47; 10:26–29; Romans 8:29–30; 9:6–23; 11:5–10; 1 Corinthians 1:26–30; Ephesians 1:4–5; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; James 2:5).

Matthew 22:14​

14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

John.6 Verses 37​

1. [37] All that the Father giveth me shall come to me; and him that cometh to me I will in no wise cast out.

John 8:47​

​

New International Version​

​

​

47 Whoever belongs to God hears what God says. The reason you do not hear is that you do not belong to God.”

John 6:65​

ESVAnd he said, “This is why I told you that no one can come to me unless it is granted him by the Father.”

John 10:26-27​

​

New International Version​

​

​

26 but you do not believe because you are not my sheep. 27 My sheep listen to my voice; I know them, and they follow me.

Romans 8:29​

​

New International Version​

​

​

29 For those God foreknew he also predestined to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstbornamong many brothers and sisters.

1 Corinthians 1:26-30

New International Version

​

26 Brothers and sisters, think of what you were when you were called. Not many of you were wise by human standards; not many were influential; not many were of noble birth. 27 But God chose the foolish things of the world to shame the wise; God chose the weak things of the world to shame the strong. 28 God chose the lowly things of this world and the despised things—and the things that are not—to nullify the things that are, 29 so that no one may boast before him. 30 It is because of him that you are in Christ Jesus, who has become for us wisdom from God—that is, our righteousness, holiness and redemption.

 

[FaithWillDo]

(Matthew 22:14; John 6:37, 44, 65; 8:47; 10:26–29; Romans 8:29–30; 9:6–23; 11:5–10; 1 Corinthians 1:26–30; Ephesians 1:4–5; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13; James 2:5).

Matthew 22:14​

14 “For many are invited, but few are chosen.”

Dear Ritajanice,
You listed many verses which say that the chosen are the ones who will be saved. For this age, that is true. They are the Elect and are the First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind.

What about all the rest of mankind? Do you believe that Christ does not plan to save them, too?

Joe

 

[Ritajanice]

Dear Ritajanice,
You listed many verses which say that the chosen are the ones who will be saved. For this age, that is true. They are the Elect and are the First Fruits of Christ's harvest of mankind.

What about all the rest of mankind? Do you believe that Christ does not plan to save them, too?

Joe

I’m not God...therefore can’t answer that dear Sister...sorry, I mean Brother.

In my heart I most definitely would love to think so!

 

[FaithWillDo]

I’m not God...therefore can’t answer that dear Sister.

In my heart I most definitely would love to think so!

Dear Ritajanice,
Christ is the Savior of mankind. This is why Christ came:

1John 4:14 And we have seen and do testify that the Father sent the Son to be the Savior of the world.

Most people in the church say that Christ will never accomplish the task His Father gave Him. But if Christ were to fail, it would be sin because sin is "missing the mark".

Here is what Paul says about Christ being the Savior of the world:

1Tim 2:3 For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Savior; 4 who will have all men to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time.

In this age, Christ is only saving those who have been chosen for salvation from the foundation of the world. They are His First Fruits of His harvest of mankind. They are NOT the full harvest. The Feast of Weeks is a foreshadowing of the harvest of the First Fruits (the Elect). The Feast of Tabernacles (Feast of Ingathering) is the feast that foreshadows the great harvest at the end of the year. This feast represents the harvest of the balance of mankind at the end of the final age. They people are not blessed but they will still be saved:

1Cor 3:13 Every man's work shall be made manifest: for the day shall declare it, because it shall be revealed by fire; and the fire shall try every man's work of what sort it is. 14 If any man's work abide which he hath built thereupon, he shall receive a reward. 15 If any man's work shall be burned, he shall suffer loss: but he himself shall be saved; yet so as by fire.

In the final age, why does Christ save the lost who are under the condemnation of the Law? He saves them because when Christ judges a person by the Law, He does not omit justice, mercy and faith like the Pharisees (and mankind) do:

Mat 23:23 “Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you pay tithe of mint and anise and cummin, and have neglected the weightier matters of the law: justice and mercy and faith. These you ought to have done, without leaving the others undone.

Scripture says the penalty of sin is death. It never says the penalty of sin is eternal torment in literal fire. Fire is a spiritual symbol for Christ's judgment and nothing more. When Christ judges the lost of the final age, before they perish, Christ will have mercy upon them. He will then give them faith and the Holy Spirit which will give them a new birth as a child of God. After the last person is saved, the "ages" will then come to an end and God will be "all in all":

1Cor 15:20 But now Christ is risen from the dead, and has become the firstfruits of those who have fallen asleep. 21 For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection from the dead. 22 For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But every man in his own order: Christ the first fruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming. 24 Then cometh the consummation, when he shall have delivered up the kingdom to God, even the Father; when he shall have put down all rule and all authority and power. 25 For he must reign, till he hath put all enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy that shall be destroyed is death. 27 For he hath put all things under his feet. But when he saith all things are put under him, it is manifest that he is excepted, which did put all things under him. 28 And when all things shall be subdued unto him, then shall the Son also himself be subject unto him that put all things under him, that God may be all in all.

Christ loves all of mankind and so does His Father. Christ will not stop His work of saving mankind until the last person is saved. Only in that way will God be "all in all".

Joe

 

[Ritajanice]

Revelation 14

King James Version

​

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Revelation 14​

​

King James Version​

​

​

14 And I looked, and, lo, a Lamb stood on the mount Sion, and with him an hundred forty and four thousand, having his Father's name written in their foreheads.
2 And I heard a voice from heaven, as the voice of many waters, and as the voice of a great thunder: and I heard the voice of harpers harping with their harps:
3 And they sung as it were a new song before the throne, and before the four beasts, and the elders: and no man could learn that song but the hundred and forty and four thousand, which were redeemed from the earth.
4 These are they which were not defiled with women; for they are virgins. These are they which follow the Lamb whithersoever he goeth. These were redeemed from among men, being the firstfruits unto God and to the Lamb.
5 And in their mouth was found no guile: for they are without fault before the throne of God.
6 And I saw another angel fly in the midst of heaven, having the everlasting gospel to preach unto them that dwell on the earth, and to every nation, and kindred, and tongue, and people,
7 Saying with a loud voice, Fear God, and give glory to him; for the hour of his judgment is come: and worship him that made heaven, and earth, and the sea, and the fountains of waters.
8 And there followed another angel, saying, Babylon is fallen, is fallen, that great city, because she made all nations drink of the wine of the wrath of her fornication.
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
11 And the smoke of their torment ascendeth up for ever and ever: and they have no rest day nor night, who worship the beast and his image, and whosoever receiveth the mark of his name.
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.
14 And I looked, and behold a white cloud, and upon the cloud one sat like unto the Son of man, having on his head a golden crown, and in his hand a sharp sickle.
15 And another angel came out of the temple, crying with a loud voice to him that sat on the cloud, Thrust in thy sickle, and reap: for the time is come for thee to reap; for the harvest of the earth is ripe.
16 And he that sat on the cloud thrust in his sickle on the earth; and the earth was reaped.
17 And another angel came out of the temple which is in heaven, he also having a sharp sickle.
18 And another angel came out from the altar, which had power over fire; and cried with a loud cry to him that had the sharp sickle, saying, Thrust in thy sharp sickle, and gather the clusters of the vine of the earth; for her grapes are fully ripe.
19 And the angel thrust in his sickle into the earth, and gathered the vine of the earth, and cast it into the great winepress of the wrath of God.
20 And the winepress was trodden without the city, and blood came out of the winepress, even unto the horse bridles, by the space of a thousand and six hundred furlongs.

Dear Ritajanice,
I'm not sure what point you are trying to make by posting this scripture from Revelation. The 144,000 is a symbol which represents the Elect. It is not a literal number.

As for those who take the mark of the beast, all believers shortly after receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit will take the mark of the beast and become a "man of sin". Because the man of sin cannot inherit life, the man of sin will be destroyed by the judgment of Christ in the Lake of Fire. That is why is it necessary to be "born again". The "marred" vessel (child of the devil) will be destroyed so that the new vessel (child of God) can be created.

Jer 18:4 And the vessel that he made of clay was marred in the hand of the potter: so he made it again another vessel, as seemed good to the potter to make it.

The spiritual process of changing from a child of the devil into a child of God is called conversion. The old must die so that the new can live.

Christ said it this way using the symbol of a corn of wheat:

John 12:24 Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except a corn of wheat fall into the ground and die, it abideth alone: but if it die, it bringeth forth much fruit.

He said it again using the symbol of a sword:

Mat 26:52 Then said Jesus unto him, put up again thy sword into his place: for all they that take the sword shall perish with the sword.

The symbol "sword" represents God's Word who is Christ. All who take up the Sword (receive the Early Rain and begin following Christ) must die by the Sword. Again, this is talking about the conversion process that happens when Christ comes to a believer the second time to pour out the Latter Rain. The Latter Rain is then quickly followed by the Day of the Lord which will bring judgment and destruction to the old vessel.

If you have any interest in knowing more of the details of Christ's plan of salvation for mankind, I have made several posts on this thread that teach a fuller understanding of it.

Joe

 

[ScottA]

Dear Big Boy Johnson,

You said:
But you do claim that a Christian can never ever never never lose their salvation... right?
Teaching that to other is a license to sin and is a stumbling block to other believers.

My answer is yes and no. What you don't understand is that Christ comes to a person TWO times in order to save them. The first time Christ comes to a person, He will give them the Early Rain of the Spirit. This is a small amount of the Spirit that gives the person a measure of faith and certain spiritual gifts. With this measure of faith, the person will call Jesus "Lord" and will enter the church. However, the Early Rain will leave the new believer spiritually blind and carnally mind. In other words, the Early Rain will not convert the person. The churches of the world are full of Early Rain believers who are spiritually blind and do not know Christ.

Because the new believer is spiritually blind, Satan quickly takes advantage of this weakness and masquerades as Christ to them. He does this by planting his seed of the spirit of anti-Christ within them. With this false spirit, the new believer will be deceived and will begin following another Jesus and another gospel which mixes works with faith. When the believer does this mixing of works and faith, Christ says that they are trying to follow two masters.

__________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________
Note: Satan's way of salvation which he teaches is by works. This is the "crooked way". For that reason, Satan is called the crooked serpent. Christ's way of salvation is solely by faith in Him to perform all the necessary works of a person's salvation. This is called the "straight way".
___________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________________

After a believer mixes works with faith, they will fall from grace (lose their salvation) and become "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45). This happens to 100% of all new believers shortly after they receive the Early Rain of the Spirit. Paul calls this "worse than the first" spiritual condition a "man of sin". In Rev chapter 13, John presents the man of sin as a Seven Headed Beast with 10 horns and 10 crowns. The crowns represent that the beast (the fallen away believer) is controlled by Satan via the second beast. The second beast is a symbol for the spirit of anti-Christ. When the spirit of anti-Christ indwells the believer, the Abomination of Desolation will occur within God's temple (the believer). The fallen away believer will remain in this "man of sin" spiritual condition until they die or until Christ comes to them a second time.

If the fallen away believer is one of the Elect, Christ will "come again" to them and pour out the Latter Rain of the Spirit. With the Latter Rain, the fallen away believer will be "born again" and will have their spiritual blindness healed. After it is healed, they will see the Abomination of Desolation which had previously occurred when the spirit of anti-Christ indwelt them. Also at this time, the man of sin will be revealed to them and they will know that they are this man of sin. After they have this knowledge, judgment will fall on the believer which will remove the spirit of anti-Christ and their carnal spiritual nature (symbolized by the Great Harlot) from within them.

Christ said it this way:

Mat 24:40 Then shall two (one flesh, one believer) be in the field; the one (Man of Sin) shall be taken, and the other left (child of God). 41 Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one (the Great Harlot, carnal nature) shall be taken, and the other left (the new spiritual nature of the Holy Spirit).

Those who are "taken" will then be destroyed in the Lake of Fire. This is presented in Rev 19:20.

After the believer has received the Latter Rain and has the spirit of anti-Christ and Great Harlot removed from within themselves, they are "converted". Once a believer has been converted, they will never fall away again and lose their salvation.

You said:
Well your "discernment" is out of whack as I don't claim on must work to earn their salvation.

I have never met a person who believes in the Doctrine of Hell and doesn't mix "works" with faith. I'm sure you are no exception.

Let me ask you this: Why are some people never saved? Why does this happen? Who is responsible?

You said:
Sin that leads to death literally means one can sin and be separated from the Lord and if they die in that condition they will burn in hell.

The only sin that leads to death is the sin of mixing works with faith. When a believer does this, they are saying that Christ's sacrifice on the cross was not sufficient to save them. They believe that they must add to Christ's work so that they are worthy of their salvation.

Paul said it this way:

Gal 5:2 Behold, I Paul say unto you, that if ye be circumcised, Christ shall profit you nothing. 3 For I testify again to every man that is circumcised, that he is a debtor to do the whole law. 4 Christ is become of no effect unto you, whosoever of you are justified by the law; ye are fallen from grace.

In the verses above, Paul uses the example of circumcision because it was the issue at hand. But any "work" that a person adds to the work of Christ will cause them to fall from grace. When the person falls back to "works", Paul says that they then become a debtor to keep the whole law, which of course they cannot do.

Understand this: The Old Covenant of Law is outward and is based upon man's works. The New Covenant of Grace through Faith is inward (spiritual) and is based solely upon the works of Christ. In other words, Christ will do 100% of the works that are necessary to save a person. He is the one who causes them to make a confession of faith and to perform works of faith. The individual contributes nothing.

That is why Paul said this:

Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: 9 Not of works, lest any man should boast. 10 For we are his workmanship, created in Christ Jesus unto good works, which God hath before ordained that we should walk in them.

Phil 2:13 For it is God which worketh in you both to will and to do of his good pleasure.

Christ's work is spiritual work which he does within us (between our ears so to speak). He is the one who gives us the answer from our tongue to make a confession of faith. He is the one who causes us to walk by faith and to be like Him. We are His "workmanship" and therefore, we have nothing we can boast about concerning our salvation. He does everything for us and through us.

As I have been saying, until Christ chooses to come to a person and do His works within them, they cannot be saved. Mankind is carnally minded and the carnal mind has nothing but hatred for God and His ways:

Rom 8:7 Because the carnal mind is enmity against God: for it is not subject to the law of God, neither indeed can be.

Since mankind's salvation comes to them solely by the work of Christ, Christ has the power to save us all. And since He comes to us because of His grace (unmerited favor), there is nothing that we can do that will cause Christ to not come and save us.

Scripture teac...

Joe

Dear ScottA,
I looked back at your post and you did not present any scriptures nor did you even state what you believe.

You should read my post above to Big Boy Johnson. It may benefit you.

Joe

Joe,

First things first. You presented a number of scriptures to justify your belief in universal salvation, to which I pointed out that those passages were only part and that you had not reconciled all scripture. That is a factual statement, and you have refused to consider what I referred to as "all scripture."

The point is, anyone can make claims using the half of scripture that suits them and leave any scripture out that does not suit them, to form a doctrine--but such a practice and such a doctrine, by definition is false, as a half-truth. That is exactly what you have presented--not all, but only part, and it's false for that very reason...the details of which can certainly be examined; but because you have categorically dismissed the greater authority of "all scripture", it would have to be done one point at a time. I insist.

Now then, in your post to Big Boy you surmise many good things, but also many that are not correct...which is therefore only a start on complete understanding and not the all-knowing understanding you assert. One at a time then:

Your idea of Christ coming to the saved twice using the former and latter rain analogy is not correct. Jesus comes twice, but only once in the flesh and a seconded time in the spirit. Which is indeed demonstrated in the former and latter rain...but rather as a seed that was dead is first planted, and is then raised up anew--to which the parable of the sower applies...wherein there is, incidentally, no universality.​

 

[Ritajanice]

The spiritual process of changing from a child of the devil into a child of God is called conversion. The old must die so that the new can live.

The scripture I posted was the word of God..I was making no point...

God was speaking...and it will be posted..if I’m led to that scripture by God...whatever God leads me to post..it will be done...make no mistake about that!

No....it’s called being birthed in the Spirit...God does NOT call it conversion.

I am posting scripture...please don’t tell me what to post..I take my orders from the Holy Spirit...what ever he places on my heart to post..

Whatever scripture he tells/ places on my heart to post , it will be posted.

The old man dies, when we have been “ Birthed In The Spirit “ Spirit gives birth to spirit....and not before.

God’s Living word says...we must be Born Again..which is the rebirth..only God can birth us in the Spirit.

You do NOT convert yourself..

Edited out as it was biblical.

I was in darkness and sin...before I was birthed in the Spirit....

​

◄ Ephesians 5:8 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light Anyway, this isn’t about being birthed in the Spirit....I just replied to your answer. So, we best stay on topic...if you want to discuss Born Again..start another thread please.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Joe,

First things first. You presented a number of scriptures to justify your belief in universal salvation, to which I pointed out that those passages were only part and that you had not reconciled all scripture. That is a factual statement, and you have refused to consider what I referred to as "all scripture."

The point is, anyone can make claims using the half of scripture that suits them and leave any scripture out that does not suit them, to form a doctrine--but such a practice and such a doctrine, by definition is false, as a half-truth. That is exactly what you have presented--not all, but only part, and it's false for that very reason...the details of which can certainly be examined; but because you have categorically dismissed the greater authority of "all scripture", it would have to be done one point at a time. I insist.

Now then, in your post to Big Boy you surmise many good things, but also many that are not correct...which is therefore only a start on completely understanding and not the all-knowing understanding you assert. One at a time then:

Your idea of Christ coming to the saved twice using the former and latter rain analogy is not correct. Jesus comes twice, but only once in the flesh and a seconded time in the spirit. Which is indeed demonstrated in the former and latter rain...but rather as a seed that was dead is first planted, is then raised up anew, to which the parable of sower applies--wherein there is no universality.​

Dear ScottA,
You said:
Your idea of Christ coming to the saved twice using the former and latter rain analogy is not correct. Jesus comes twice, but only once in the flesh and a seconded time in the spirit. Which is indeed demonstrated in the former and latter rain...but rather as a seed that was dead is first planted, is then raised up anew, to which the parable of sower applies--wherein there is no universality.

The first time Christ comes to a person, He gives them the Early Rain. At this time, Christ only appears to them "carnally" (in the flesh). This happens because the Early Rain leaves the new believer spiritually blind and carnally minded. It does not convert them.

Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. His blindness was a physical type for His spiritual blindness. And like Paul, it is at that time a new believer is "led by the hand" into Damascus (same a Sodom/earthly Jerusalem). Once in Damascus, Paul remained blind for three days (the number 3 represents a spiritual process) and was unable to eat or drink (bread/New Wine). To symbolize Paul becoming "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45), Paul stayed at the house of a man named Judas. Then after three days, Paul started praying which represented His repentance from works. This made the pathway straight for Christ to "come again". Ananias is a type for Christ. The house of Judas was on a street named "straight" which also represents Paul's repentance. When Ananias came to Paul, it represented the second coming of Christ when He pours out the Latter Rain. At that time, Paul's scales fell from his eyes. This represents that Paul was given "eyes that can see" spiritually. Christ then spiritually appeared to Paul. Paul was then told to eat meat which is the true bread from heaven. At that time, the scriptures opened up to Paul's understanding.

Paul's conversion experience is the pattern which all the Elect must travel to be saved. This pattern was established near the end of Paul's ministry. No one can deviate from this pathway because our steps are guided by Christ.

In Mark 8:21-25, Christ teaches when He heals a person's spiritual blindness. The first time Christ heals the blind man, the blind man is looking down at the earth (represents his carnal understanding of Christ). After he is healed, he remains very near-sighted. This represents the blind man receiving the Early Rain. Christ then has the man "look up" and and heals him a second time. This represents the Latter Rain and when the man's spiritual blindness was healed.

The story of the woman taken in adultery teaches when a person comes out from the Law. The first time Christ writes His law of the spirit in the earth (represents carnal mankind), the Pharisees do not drop their stones (represents the law). This is the Early Rain. Christ then writes in the earth a second time and the Pharisees finally drop their stones. This represents the Latter Rain and when the law can no longer accuse a believer.

Does any of this make sense to you?

Joe

 

[Ritajanice]

The first time Christ comes to a person, He gives them the Early Rain. At this time, Christ only appears to them "carnally" (in the flesh). This happens because the Early Rain leaves the new believer spiritually blind and carnally minded. It does not convert them.

Where is this in scripture please?

 

[FaithWillDo]

The scripture I posted was the word of God..I was making no point...

God was speaking...and it will be posted..if I’m led to that scripture by God...whatever God leads me to post..it will be done...make no mistake about that!

No....it’s called being birthed in the Spirit...God does NOT call it conversion.

I am posting scripture...please don’t tell me what to post..I take my orders from the Holy Spirit...what ever he places on my heart to post..

Whatever scripture he tells/ places on my heart to post , it will be posted.

The old man dies, when we have been “ Birthed In The Spirit “ Spirit gives birth to spirit....and not before.

God’s Living word says...we must be Born Again..which is the rebirth..only God can birth us in the Spirit.

You do NOT convert yourself..

Edited out as it was biblical.

I was in darkness and sin...before I was birthed in the Spirit....

​

◄ Ephesians 5:8 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version For you were once darkness, but now you are light in the Lord. Live as children of light Anyway, this isn’t about being birthed in the Spirit....I just replied to your answer. So, we best stay on topic...if you want to discuss Born Again..start another thread please.

Dear RitaJanice,

You said:
No....it’s called being birthed in the Spirit...God does NOT call it conversion.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Conversion is the spiritual process of being "born again" by receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and being judged by the baptism of Fire. Conversion is the creation of the new vessel and the destruction of the old vessel.

John the Baptist said this:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

To be saved, a person must receive both the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) and the baptism of Fire (judgment).

This is what it means to be converted.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Where is this in scripture please?

Dear Ritajanice,

Here it is:

Mark 8:15 And he charged them, saying, take heed, beware of the leaven of the Pharisees, and of the leaven of Herod. 16 And they reasoned among themselves, saying, it is because we have no bread. 17 And when Jesus knew it, he saith unto them, why reason ye, because ye have no bread? perceive ye not yet, neither understand? have ye your heart yet hardened? 18 Having eyes, see ye not? and having ears, hear ye not? and do ye not remember? 19 When I broke the five loaves among five thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? They say unto him, Twelve. 20 And when the seven among four thousand, how many baskets full of fragments took ye up? And they said, Seven. 21 And he said unto them, how is it that ye do not understand?

In these verses, Christ is giving His disciples a lesson on the spiritual language of God's Word - His language. At this point in time (before they were converted at Pentecost), the disciples had not yet received the Baptism of the Holy Spirit (Latter Rain) and because of such, they were still spiritually blind. They had been called out from the world (as was the whole Nation of Israel), but they still could not understand what Christ was teaching them. After Christ’s short lesson, He ends it by asking them this question: “How is it that ye do not understand”? No response from the Apostles is recorded in scripture. However, Christ answers His own question in the very next four verses.

Mark 8:22 And he cometh to Bethsaida; and they bring a blind man unto him, and besought him to touch him. 23 And he took the blind man by the hand, and led him out of the town; and when he had spit on his eyes, and put his hands upon him, he asked him if he saw ought. 24 And he looked up, and said, I see men as trees, walking. 25 After that he put his hands again upon his eyes, and made him look up: and he was restored, and saw every man clearly.

Since Christ is the Word of God, He teaches us not only through His words which are recorded in scripture but also by the things He did. In answering the question that He proposed to the disciples in verse 21, Christ goes to Bethsaida and gives us His answer in type by the healing of a blind man. This type is the same type which Christ uses with the Old Testament events to teach His spiritual truths.

In verse 23, Christ leads a blind man out of the city. Once outside the city, Christ places spit on his eyes and touches him with His hands. These actions occur as the blind man is looking down which symbolizes the carnal aspect of His healing. Christ does not have to tell the blind man to look down, the blind man just does it naturally. The spit (water) symbolizes the blind man receiving the Early Rain of the Spirit with its accompanying vision (understanding). This event represents the time when an unbeliever is called out from the world and enters the church. After Christ asks the man what he could see, the man looks up and says that he could see men walking as trees. "Walking as Trees" is a spiritual symbol for called out believers who walk by sight rather than by faith. At this point, the blind man is a type of a called out believer. The man’s blindness was not total any longer but he was still very near-sighted.

This first healing of the blind man reflects the true spiritual condition of a new believer when they first enter the church. At that time, they are left carnally minded and spiritually near-sighted. They can see a little but that only opens the door to Satan's deceptions - deceptions which each new believer readily accepts due to their carnal nature still being in control of them.

Peter says this near-sighted condition is the same as being blind:

2Pet 1:9 But he that lacketh these things is blind, and cannot see afar off, and hath forgotten that he was purged from his old sins.

In the final verse of the story, Christ lays His hands upon the man’s eyes again, but as He does, Christ has the man look up instead of down. This second healing represents the Latter Rain of the Spirit when true spiritual vision is given to the believer. The man’s upward gaze represents the spiritual aspect of the healing in contrast to the carnal aspect when the blind man was looking down at the earth. From that moment onward, we now know that the blind man is a type of a called and chosen believer who has received both the Early and Latter Rains. He has been given eyes that can see. From his new ability to understand God's Word, he will then come out from Satan's deceptions and will begin walking by faith. He will be included in the resurrection of the First Fruits and will receive life during the ages.

Joe

 

[Ritajanice]

Dear RitaJanice,

You said:
No....it’s called being birthed in the Spirit...God does NOT call it conversion.

Luke 22:32 But I have prayed for thee, that thy faith fail not: and when thou art converted, strengthen thy brethren.

John 12:40 He hath blinded their eyes, and hardened their heart; that they should not see with their eyes, nor understand with their heart, and be converted, and I should heal them.

Acts 3:19 Repent ye therefore, and be converted, that your sins may be blotted out, when the times of refreshing shall come from the presence of the Lord;

Conversion is the spiritual process of being "born again" by receiving the baptism of the Holy Spirit and being judged by the baptism of Fire. Conversion is the creation of the new vessel and the destruction of the old vessel.

John the Baptist said this:

Mat 3:11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance: but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall BAPTIZE YOU WITH THE HOLY SPIRIT AND WITH FIRE: 12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

​

◄ John 3:3 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

To be saved, a person must receive both the baptism of the Holy Spirit (the Latter Rain) and the baptism of Fire (judgment).

This is what it means to be converted.

Joe

To be saved from eternal damnation...one must be birthed in the Spirit only..

Born Again from above.

That is your own belief system...which is no more valid than mine or anyone else’s.

That is what it means to “ you” to be converted.

 

[FaithWillDo]

Where is this in scripture please?

Dear Ritajanice,

Paul's conversion experience also "types" the Early and Latter Rain. Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road and Paul's blindness "typed" his spiritual blindness. It is a this time that all believers must be led by the hand.

Later, Paul received the Latter Rain in Damascus and that was when his blindness was healed. This represents when Paul was given "eyes that can see".

Joe

 

[Ritajanice]

Dear Ritajanice,

Paul's conversion experience also "types" the Early and Latter Rain. Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road and Paul's blindness "typed" his spiritual blindness. It is a this time that all believers must be led by the hand.

Later, Paul received the Latter Rain in Damascus and that was when his blindness was healed. This represents when Paul was given "eyes that can see".

Joe

Again, that is what “ you” believe the living word of God to be saying.

I don’t agree with your theology.

With respect..makes not an ounce of sense to my Spirit.

 

[FaithWillDo]

​

◄ John 3:3 ►

​

Audio Crossref Comment Greek Verse (Click for Chapter) New International Version Jesus replied, “Very truly I tell you, no one can see the kingdom of God unless they are born again.”

To be saved from eternal damnation...one must be birthed in the Spirit only..

Born Again from above.

That is your own belief system...which is no more valid than mine or anyone else’s.

That is what it means to “ you” to be converted.

Dear Ritajanice,
I received the Latter Rain and was converted in 2005. At that time, I left the apostate church and begin understanding the truth of Christ for the first time. What I present on the forum is what Christ freely gave to me.

My conversion testimony is posted on my website if you care to read it. There is a link to it just under my user name.

Joe

 

[FaithWillDo]

Again, that is what “ you” believe the living word of God to be saying.

I don’t agree with your theology.

Dear Ritajanice,

As the Lord wills.

Joe

 

[Ritajanice]

Dear Ritajanice,
I received the Latter Rain and was converted in 2005. At that time, I left the apostate church and begin understanding the truth of Christ for the first time. What I present on the forum is what Christ freely gave to me.

My conversion testimony is posted on my website if you care to read it. There is a link to it just under my user name.

Joe

Good for you, if that’s what you believe.

I was birthed in the Spirit 31 yrs ago..he testified with my spirit that I was his child/ Born Again as the Holy Spirit was indwelling me...

I’m Born Again ..as in...” Spirit gives birth to spirit.

God works in all of us very differently.

We are off topic..so...if you want to discuss further..please start another topic...this is the second time I have said this.

 

[Ritajanice]

Dear Ritajanice,

As the Lord wills.

Joe

Amen!

 

[ScottA]

Dear ScottA,
You said:
Your idea of Christ coming to the saved twice using the former and latter rain analogy is not correct. Jesus comes twice, but only once in the flesh and a seconded time in the spirit. Which is indeed demonstrated in the former and latter rain...but rather as a seed that was dead is first planted, is then raised up anew, to which the parable of sower applies--wherein there is no universality.

The first time Christ comes to a person, He gives them the Early Rain. At this time, Christ only appears to them "carnally" (in the flesh). This happens because the Early Rain leaves the new believer spiritually blind and carnally minded. It does not convert them.

Paul received the Early Rain on the Damascus Road. His blindness was a physical type for His spiritual blindness. And like Paul, it is at that time a new believer is "led by the hand" into Damascus (same a Sodom/earthly Jerusalem). Once in Damascus, Paul remained blind for three days (the number 3 represents a spiritual process) and was unable to eat or drink (bread/New Wine). To symbolize Paul becoming "worse than the first" (Mat 12:43-45), Paul stayed at the house of a man named Judas. Then after three days, Paul started praying which represented His repentance from works. This made the pathway straight for Christ to "come again". Ananias is a type for Christ. The house of Judas was on a street named "straight" which also represents Paul's repentance. When Ananias came to Paul, it represented the second coming of Christ when He pours out the Latter Rain. At that time, Paul's scales fell from his eyes. This represents that Paul was given "eyes that can see" spiritually. Christ then spiritually appeared to Paul. Paul was then told to eat meat which is the true bread from heaven. At that time, the scriptures opened up to Paul's understanding.

Paul's conversion experience is the pattern which all the Elect must travel to be saved. This pattern was established near the end of Paul's ministry. No one can deviate from this pathway because our steps are guided by Christ.

In Mark 8:21-25, Christ teaches when He heals a person's spiritual blindness. The first time Christ heals the blind man, the blind man is looking down at the earth (represents his carnal understanding of Christ). After he is healed, he remains very near-sighted. This represents the blind man receiving the Early Rain. Christ then has the man "look up" and and heals him a second time. This represents the Latter Rain and when the man's spiritual blindness was healed.

The story of the woman taken in adultery teaches when a person comes out from the Law. The first time Christ writes His law of the spirit in the earth (represents carnal mankind), the Pharisees do not drop their stones (represents the law). This is the Early Rain. Christ then writes in the earth a second time and the Pharisees finally drop their stones. This represents the Latter Rain and when the law can no longer accuse a believer.

Does any of this make sense to you?

Joe

I answered already.
One thing at a time.
Your repeating yourself doesn't make you right.