Is Universalism Unorthodox

[St. SteVen]

There are just as many bible verses in the bible that support Universalism and Orthodox views. However, by my Salvation through Jesus Christ, means the best is the narrow road, and not the wide road.

I hope the narrow way and the broad way only refer to this life.
The inference otherwise is pretty bad. That scriptures says, "few there be that find it."
Meaning the vast majority will not.

Is God playing a high-stakes game of hide-and-seek with our souls?
Hard to imagine that he would make sport of our eternal destiny.
"Oh, too bad. You were so close. Better luck next time. Oh wait, there won't BE a next time. Ha ha ha..."

 

[Jack]

I hope the narrow way and the broad way only refer to this life.
The inference otherwise is pretty bad. That scriptures says, "few there be that find it."
Meaning the vast majority will not.

Is God playing a high-stakes game of hide-and-seek with our souls?
Hard to imagine that he would make sport of our eternal destiny.
"Oh, too bad. You were so close. Better luck next time. Oh wait, there won't BE a next time. Ha ha ha..."

Referring to salvation:

Luke 13
23 Then one said to Him, "Lord, are there few who are saved?" And He said to them,
24 "Strive to enter through the narrow gate, for many, I say to you, will seek to enter and will not be able.

 

[dev553344]

Hey @devin

Yea, sorry for engaging with Jack. I went ahead and put him on "ignore" and I'm going to do the same for you so that I don't repeat this mistake. Goodbye.

Interesting. So if you can't win in a discussion with someone then you put them on ignore. Hmmm.

 

[dev553344]

I opened this thread to discuss whether or not Universalism can be considered an orthodox idea. I don't find that the facts presented to support that it can be considered an orthodox idea have any certain truth to them beyond a reasonable doubt. Therefore I have judged that it is not a potential candidate for orthodox beliefs since it cannot be credibly argued that it is supported by the bible without uncommon translations.

I have been open to hearing all sides of the debate. And I have made this judgment with careful consideration. Thank you for your time. This has been a learning experience for myself as I was fairly new to the ideas of Universalism.

I have made this judgment for confirmation of what I believe on the matter.

 

[CadyandZoe]

Most of that hinges on the mistranslation of Aionios as "eternal" and "everlasting" instead for an Age, or "Age during".

Incorrect. The singular form indicates an age; the plural form indicates eternity.

Jesus paid the death penalty for all of humankind. Hopefully we can agree on that!

Negative. His death became the reconciliation between God and man; not payment as you suggest. With regard to universal reconciliation, one only needs to remember that reconciliation is between two parties. God is not saving those who refuse to reconcile with him. And the time for reconciliation is today. Death is too late.

And there is support for UR in Revelation. Every tribe tongue and nation. The healing of the nations.
Should anyone NOT be included?

Some are excluded. Keep reading.

Yes, so does UR.

I doubt it. Thomas Wittemore wrote, "The sentiment by which Universalists are distinguished is this: that at last every individual of the human race shall become holy and happy." This sentiment is absent from the Biblical record. Like all atheistic philosophies, this sentiment is essentially fatalistic. It doesn't matter how a person lives or what choices a person makes. "At Last" he will be happy.

The day of salvation is today.

Hebrews 3:12-15

12 Take care, brethren, that there not be in any one of you an evil, unbelieving heart that falls away from the living God. 13 But encourage one another day after day, as long as it is still called “Today,” so that none of you will be hardened by the deceitfulness of sin. 14 For we have become partakers of Christ, if we hold fast the beginning of our assurance firm until the end, 15 while it is said,​

​

“Today if you hear His voice,
Do not harden your hearts, as when they provoked Me.”​

 

[MatthewG]

Impressive thread, @dev553344.

While universalism doesn't really hold much water, with the holistic diagram of the bible itself with a bigger drawn picture. There definitely seems to be a fine line between a believer, and a non-believer, while God still loves both. He rewards both justly and fairly.

Nice post on reconciliation, which is most certainly the alternative view, of universalism itself - @CadyandZoe, good job! In death - the reward is given.

That is why it is important to not harden ones heart today, or to become doubtful, and fortify faith.

All the best to both parties in any more debates that go through.

 

[St. SteVen]

I have been open to hearing all sides of the debate.

Is that why my post(s) have been deleted?

@CadyandZoe

 

[St. SteVen]

In the context of whether or not Universalism is orthodox or not, I think using things that are not commonly accepted translations of the word eternal or the bible as a whole, hardly supports the idea that Universalism is orthodox.

Changing horses midstream?
Originally you claimed no translation. Now you are picking and choosing?

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
he N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE)
Roman Catholic Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

 

[Jack]

Changing horses midstream?
Originally you claimed no translation. Now you are picking and choosing?

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
he N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE)
Roman Catholic Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

How do they translate this?

Matthew 25
41 Then He will also say to those on the left hand, 'Depart from Me, you cursed, into the everlasting fire prepared for the devil and his angels:
Revelation 20:10
10 The devil, who deceived them, was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone where the beast and the false prophet are. And they will be tormented day and night forever and ever.

 

[MatthewG]

Changing horses midstream?
Originally you claimed no translation. Now you are picking and choosing?

Bibles that do NOT contain the word "Hell".

Scarlett's N.T. (1798)
The New Testament in Greek and English (Kneeland, 1823)
Young's Literal Translation (1891)
Twentieth Century New Testament (1900)
Rotherham's Emphasized Bible (reprinted, 1902)
Fenton's Holy Bible in Modern English (1903)
Weymouth's New Testament in Modern Speech (1903)
The New Testament, James Moffat, (1917)
Jewish Publication Society Bible Old Testament (1917)
Panin's Numeric English New Testament (1914)
The New Testament, Charles B. Williams, 1937
The People's New Covenant (Overbury, 1925)
Hanson's New Covenant (1884)
Western N.T. (1926)
NT of our Lord and Savior Anointed (Tomanek, 1958)
Concordant Literal NT (1983)
he N.T., A Translation (Clementson, 1938)
Emphatic Diaglott, Greek/English Interlinear (Wilson, 1942)
New American Bible (1970)
Restoration of Original Sacred Name Bible (1976)
Tanakh, The Holy Scriptures, Old Testament (1985)
The New Testament, A New Translation (Greber, 1980)
Christian Bible (1991)
The Scriptures (1993)
World English Bible (in progress)
Orthodox Jewish Brit Chadasha [NT Only]
Original Bible Project (Dr. James Tabor, still in translation)
Zondervan Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1975)**
Int. NASB-NIV Parallel N.T. in Greek and English (1993)**
A Critical Paraphrase of the N.T. by Vincent T. Roth (1960)
New Testament, Recovery Version, Living Stream Ministry, 1991
New American Bible Revised Edition (NABRE)
Roman Catholic Holy Bible In Its Original Order, Fred R. Coulter, 2007
Etymological N.T. (An Ultra Literal Translation, 2011, Michael Wine)
Aramaic Peshitta New Testament, 2006, Janet M. Magiera
MirrorWord N.T. (Francois du Toit) still in translation
Victorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, Electronic Ver. (Tentmaker Ministries)
The Source N.T. (Dr. Ann Nyland), 2004, 2007
Jonathan Mitchell N.T. (Jonathan Mitchell) 2009
The Scriptures, 2016
Tree of Life Version, Baker Bookhouse, 2016******
The New Testament (David Bentley Hart) Yale University Press, 2017

Steven,

It wont never delegate the fact of people being separated in heaven, upon death.

Faithful, faithless. God is an all consuming fire. Everyone will be in the heavenly realm, but there is darkness, and light.

Sorry man, idk what to tell you.

 

[St. SteVen]

Impressive thread, ...

All the best to both parties in any more debates that go through.

Have you had posts deleted for being off topic? I have.
I'm totally on topic. Go figure. Christians don't play fair.

 

[St. SteVen]

It wont never delegate the fact...

No idea what that even means. - LOL

To whom would you NOT never delegate? And why?
(double negative noted) NOT never = will always
Are you even a leader? (one who delegates tasks)

 

[St. SteVen]

Im not worried about being liked by the community in general...

That's a relief.

 

[St. SteVen]

I use fancy words just to sound fancy.

Restate that by replacing one of the "fancy"s. (redundant)

 

[dev553344]

Have you had posts deleted for being off topic? I have.
I'm totally on topic. Go figure. Christians don't play fair.

In the OP I have stated that I believe that if a belief counters the bible it cannot be considered orthodox at minimum. So I have allowed discussions of orthodoxy and any proof that Universalism is supported by the bible. Anything outside that area is off topic. I will report repeated attempts to derail the thread.

 

[St. SteVen]

Children tend to complain, when they don't get there way.

Maybe you should respect your elders.

 

[amigo de christo]

Do you know what the Bible says will happen to "all liars"? I doubt that you even know, so I'll help you.

Revelation 21
8 All liars shall have their part in the lake which burns with fire and brimstone, which is the second death.

WHO IS A LIAR . HE WHO DENIES JESUS IS THE CHRIST . THEY BELIEVE NOT ON HIM . THEY will burn in that lake of fire .
The all inclusive lie is a lie from satan . THIS LAMB WONT BUY NO LIE . RATHER these folks need to BUY THE TRUTH
and SELL HER NOT .

 

[MatthewG]

Maybe you should respect your elders.

May the God of all comfort be with you Steven.

There is only two things I hate, manipulation, and downing others. If I have downed you I apologize and hope all the best for you and your family, sir. Hope that you can forgive me.

 

[amigo de christo]

Interesting. So if you can't win in a discussion with someone then you put them on ignore. Hmmm.

Well that happens a lot to me my friend . a whole lot . I got more ignores than i can probably count .

 

[St. SteVen]

In the OP I have stated that I believe that if a belief counters the bible it cannot be considered orthodox at minimum. So I have allowed discussions of orthodoxy and any proof that Universalism is supported by the bible. Anything outside that area is off topic. I will report repeated attempts to derail the thread.

Damnationism is a belief that counters the bible. Is it orthodox?
See Post #2
Unless that's the one you had deleted. (cheater?)