Is water baptism necessary for salvation?

[charity]

Agreed, except for your capital lettered word, <<we are to KEEP>>. Not BELIEVE rather? Believe the APOSTLES' baptism-- believe the JESUS mandated baptism?
Yes, the believers who came to believe after the apostles' age, are baptised with Christ's baptism of in, with, and by the Word and Holy Spirit --- through which they are reborn and are saved and, once for all, indeed are sealed. But our receiving is of the apostles' blessing received from Christ with authority to all the world. Not ours. We are baptised by faith through grace with no authority; the apostles baptised with authority received from the Lord Jesus in the flesh and having been living witnesses and disciples of Him on earth. There cannot be greater difference. And all the difference has got nothing to do with water. That's my point. Jesus' baptism executed by his "sent" - apostles, never was 'water-baptism', not once. And therefore the Church disobeys rather than obeys when it baptised with any water-baptism.

'Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit'
' ... One Lord, One Faiith, One Bapism ... '
(Ephesians 4:3 & 5)

Hello again, @GerhardEbersoehn,

Yes, the word, 'Keep' (G5083 - terio), has the meaning of 'keeping as a trust' (as in 1 Timothy 6:20): 'holding fast' the truth which we have received and believed as itemised in this sevenfold unity. So it is far stronger than just believing: but has the sense of 'Standing', with armour on against the onslaught of falsehood, or the enemy's darts, which would seek to alter or weaken this glorious array of truth in Ephesians 4:3-6.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

'Endeavouring to keep the unity of the Spirit'
' ... One Lord, One Faiith, One Bapism ... '
(Ephesians 4:3 & 5)

Hello again, @GerhardEbersoehn,

Yes, the word, 'Keep' (G5083 - terio), has the meaning of 'keeping as a trust' (1 Timothy 6:20): 'guarding' in other words, the truth which we have received and believed: itemised in this sevenfold unity. So it is far stronger than just believing: but has the sense of 'Standing', with armour on against the onslaught of falsehood, or the enemy's darts, which would seek to alter or weaken this glorious array of truth in Ephesians 4:3-6.

With love in Christ Jesus
Chris

Beautiful! Thanks very much, this really, as they say, 'helps'! I was on the point to post this...
Converts aren’t ‘made apostles’, they’re ‘made disciples’ for life.
I also immediately thought about the Sabbath commandment, and again your 'hendiadys' comes to aid, "Remember the Sabbath to keep it". My son and I once talked it over, and I told him that neither I nor anyone in this life is able to 'keep' the Sabbath, but the Lord Jesus made it for us to remember all our lives.

 

[charity]

Beautiful! Thanks very much, this really, as they say, 'helps'! I was on the point to post this...
Converts aren’t ‘made apostles’, they’re ‘made disciples’ for life.
I also immediately thought about the Sabbath commandment, and again your 'hendiadys' comes to aid, "Remember the Sabbath to keep it". My son and I once talked it over, and I told him that neither I nor anyone in this life is able to 'keep' the Sabbath, but the Lord Jesus made it for us to remember all our lives.

Thank you, @GerhardEbersoehn,

Though you have now raised the matter of the keeping of the Sabbath which, like that of water baptism, can be quite polarising, can't it? I liked what you said in your response: but question the application of that latter point. Which would require another thread to discuss it, otherwise it could derail this present thread.

''Keep'

In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[GerhardEbersoehn]

I'll oblige

 

[charity]

I'll oblige

Please see, ''Keep'

Thank you
In Christ Jesus
Chris

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

You are citing the preaching former blind man rather than Jesus:

"Now we know that God heareth not sinners: but if any man be a worshipper of God, and doeth his will, him he heareth." John 9:31

As @Helen has already pointed out, God certainly does hear sinners since every man was certainly a sinner before he met the Master.

"I came not to call the righteous, but sinners to repentance." Luke 15:32

The blind man who spoke those words was not speaking by inspiration.

--The blind man was speaking to the Pharisees and had the blind man said something that could not be found in the OT I believe those Pharisees would have called him out on it. The fact those Pharisees did not call him out shows they agreed with his statement that God does not hear the prayers of sinners.

--the blind man said "now we know" shows that God in not hearing the prayer of sinners was an accepted fact among the Jews. I quoted a few verses from the OT that does show that God does not hear the prayers of sinners. Therefore even though the blind man was not inspired yet what he said is based upon Bible truths, facts.

--the fact that God is omniscient in knowing everything then He knows that sinners pray yet God does not hear in the sense that He will not acknowledge those prayers.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

I know it wasn't a bed, but technically wasn't the thief on the cross on his deathbed?

The thief on the cross is NOT an example of NT salvation (Hebrews 9:16-17) that requires one to believe (Romans 10:9); repent (Luke 13:3) confess (Matthew 10:32-33) and be baptized for remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Secondly, when Christ was 'on earth' He had the authority, the power to forgive sins of those whom He though was deserving as the thief, Matthew 9:6. Yet Christ left earth some 2000 years ago therefore Christ is not on earth today forgiving in person the sins of men hence no one today can be saved in the same manner as the thief. When Christ left earth some 2000 years ago He left behind His NT as His authority on earth and His NT requires, again, belief, repentance, confession and baptism to be saved....no exceptions.

 

[reformed1689]

The thief on the cross is NOT an example of NT salvation (Hebrews 9:16-17) that requires one to believe (Romans 10:9); repent (Luke 13:3) confess (Matthew 10:32-33) and be baptized for remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

The thief DID believe. The Thief showed a repentant heart. The thief DID confess his sin. The only part was baptism, which is not a requirement of SALVATION. Is it required of believers as an act of obedience? Yes. Is it required for salvation? No.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Again...say you!!

You must have led a very shallow life and for sure never been a chaplain in a hospital or...maybe you have never evangelized at all!!!

As for your line Quote :-
God does not hear sinners

How on earth did ANYONE become saved...EVERYONE was a sinner..of course God hears the cry of sinner, how else did YOU get saved!!

Brother , you do talk a load of old rubbish.

You can go back an look at my all red post at the verse that clearly state God does not hear the prayer of sinners, Ezekiel 8:17-18. No one is saved by saying some "sinner's prayer" but saved by being obedient in believing (John 8:24), repenting of sins (do works meet for repentance) (Acts of the Apostles 26:20), confess (Romans 10:9-10) and submit to being water baptized for remission of sins (Acts 2:38).

Secondly, faith only will not save a perfectly healthy person much less save one lying on his deathbed.

 

[Philip James]

--the fact that God is omniscient in knowing everything then He knows that sinners pray yet God does not hear in the sense that He will not acknowledge those prayers.

Hello Ernest,

Are you sure about that? Unrepentaant sinners perhaps, but does not heaven rejoice over a repentant sinner?

Consider:


But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, 'O God, be merciful to me a sinner.'

I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

And of course this:

Jesus said to them in reply, "Those who are healthy do not need a physician, but the sick do.

I have not come to call the righteous to repentance but sinners."

Son of David, have mercy on us!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

The thief DID believe. The Thief showed a repentant heart. The thief DID confess his sin. The only part was baptism, which is not a requirement of SALVATION. Is it required of believers as an act of obedience? Yes. Is it required for salvation? No.

--it remains that the thief is not an example of NT salvation, Hebrews 9:16-17. The NT requires one to believe that God "hath raised" Christ from the dead, Romans 10:9-10. The NT also requires one to be baptized into the death of Christ (Romans 6:3-5) before one can walk in neweness of life (born again). Yet at the time Christ promised the thief he would be in paradise Christ had not died much less resurrected, therefore it would not be possible for the thief to follow Rom 6 or Rom 10 in what the NT requires. Hence the thief not being under the NT was not accountable to Romans 6, Romans 10 or Acts 2:38.

--the Bible does not definitively state the thief was never baptized. He may have been of those of Mark 1:4-5 that was baptized becoming a disciple but later fell into a life of crime and now was repentant of his sins and Christ forgave him. This may explain why the thief had much knowledge of Christ, for from the discourse that takes place between the thief and Christ the thief 1) knew there was a God 2) that God was to be feared, 3) that Christ was an innocent man 4) that the crucifixion would not be the end of Christ 5) he knew that Christ would have a kingdom and 6) saw his need to be in that kingdom.

--if anyone today wants to be saved in the same way as the thief was, then he must, find a time machine and go back in time, commit a crime be found guilty and be hung on a cross next to Christ and personally be forgiven by Christ while Christ was 'on earth'.

--In Acts 15 the Apostles met in Jerusalem to discuss if Gentiles had to be circumcised according to the OT law to be saved as some Jews at the church in Jerusalem claimed. Peter said in verse 11 "But we believe that we (Jews) shall be saved through the grace of the Lord Jesus, in like manner as they (Gentiles)." Today under the NT gospel (which the thief was not under) Jews and Gentiles are saved in a "like manner" way and that like manner way being commanded to be water baptized in the name of the Lord for remission of sins, Jews in Acts of the Apostles 2:38 and Gentiles in Acts of the Apostles 10:47-48. NO exceptions to this like manner way Jew and Gentile are saved today. If one waits to long to obey the gospel (2 Thessalonians 1:8) and finds themselves on a deathbed, then they have waited to long and it is too late for them. "TODAY" is the day of salvation for one does not have the promise of tomorrow.

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

Hello Ernest,

Are you sure about that? Unrepentaant sinners perhaps, but does not heaven rejoice over a repentant sinner?

Consider:


But the tax collector stood off at a distance and would not even raise his eyes to heaven but beat his breast and prayed, 'O God, be merciful to me a sinner.'

I tell you, the latter went home justified, not the former; for everyone who exalts himself will be humbled, and the one who humbles himself will be exalted."

And of course this:

Jesus said to them in reply, "Those who are healthy do not need a physician, but the sick do.

I have not come to call the righteous to repentance but sinners."

Son of David, have mercy on us!

Hi,

--the publican is not an example of NT salvation nor how one today comes into a NT covenant relationship with God.

--the alien sinner first obeys by believing, repenting, confessing and being baptized thereby becoming a Christian, a child of God then God hears him. If a Christian later in his life strays away from God and becomes lost but he obeys in repenting, confessing his sins to God, God will hear him (see Simon in Acts 8). In the OT, the Jews were God's people but had strayed away from God, turned from God and in one of my favorite Bible verses God says to them "If my people, which are called by my name, shall humble themselves, and pray, and seek my face, and turn from their wicked ways; then will I hear from heaven, and will forgive their sin, and will heal their land." 2 Chron 7:14. God hearing and forgiving them was CONDITIONAL...IF my people...THEN will I hear and will forgive...an IF - THEN proposition.

 

[Helen]

@Ernest T. Bass

Who died and made you the authority on everything.
Just as you correct us....I think your vision of Father God is way off in the left field. You obviously see a very miserable demanding God. It must make you a miserable man...I see not victory in your posts.
By your view of things...Satan wins big time and God...well, if He can, He'll save a handful since the days of Adam...

What a message of victory and "Good News!" I think not! Give me a break!!

 

[Ernest T. Bass]

@Ernest T. Bass

Who died and made you the authority on everything.
Just as you correct us....I think your vision of Father God is way off in the left field. You obviously see a very miserable demanding God. It must make you a miserable man...I see not victory in your posts.
By your view of things...Satan wins big time and God...well, if He can, He'll save a handful since the days of Adam...

What a message of victory and "Good News!" I think not! Give me a break!!

Christ word is His authority on earth and it (not me) requires one to believe repent confess and be baptized. There is victory to those who obey Christ and but not to those who do not obey, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

Deathbed salvation is an invention and attempt by some people to promote Luther's faith only-ism and nothing more.

 

[reformed1689]

Christ word is His authority on earth and it (not me) requires one to believe repent confess and be baptized. There is victory to those who obey Christ and but not to those who do not obey, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

Deathbed salvation is an invention and attempt by some people to promote Luther's faith only-ism and nothing more.

So then Paul and Peter disagree on what it takes for salvation?

 

[Helen]

Christ word is His authority on earth and it (not me) requires one to believe repent confess and be baptized. There is victory to those who obey Christ and but not to those who do not obey, 2 Thessalonians 1:8.

Deathbed salvation is an invention and attempt by some people to promote Luther's faith only-ism and nothing more.

As someone else already posted to day:-

 

[historyb]

@historyb

Would you add to the verse to include being baptized ?

Scripture says one must. I know evangelicals hate to really follow real Scripture and would rather do their own thing, but if evangelicals want to be followers of Christ then they must do all in Scripture. So many heresies in evangelicalism

 

[historyb]

No, I actually hold to Scripture and not the traditions of man.

No you do not, you hold to your ideas which are heretical at best and not even remotely Christian at worst. Heresy is your bedfellow

 

[reformed1689]

No you do not, you hold to your ideas which are heretical at best and not even remotely Christian at worst. Heresy is your bedfellow

Which heresy are you charging me with?

 

[historyb]

I beg your pardon, but <<that Baptism is not a requirement and that mere belief is>>, sadly is underestimating the greatness of "The Great Commission" of Jesus - in person - given to the disciples - in person - in Galilee after his Resurrection WHEREWITH CHRIST MADE THEM APOSTLES. But them and them ALONE! Since the Church has the apostles and their report in the New Testament, it also has their baptism in the New Testament in their report. The Church has authority to proclaim what the apostles proclaimed, but has no authority to continue the baptism which Christ meant for the apostles and their age only. What is apostolic authentic and unique because it was the beginnings of and laid the foundation for the future, cannot be made replicas of, or they must be faked. So the fraudulent is easy to recognise because water-baptism at no stage was apostolic and never at all was authentic Christian, whereas to "baptise IN THE NAME" was apostolic and had been authentic Christian during the apostles' time.

Here is a great example of one living and loving heresy