Israel and prophecy

[Eternally Grateful]

It's too late, you already defined your stance when you said the following...

You said:
"If Christians inherit the promise. then they would be living in Palestine as we speak. they would be living in peace from their enemies. they would be in the land, and the land would be a blessing

the fact that we are not proves it is not us.

Again, How can you call the church back to a land that they never lost?"


Those statements above you said, make it clear that your assumption is that "Christians" (i.e. Christ's Church) have no connection with God's prophecies to Israel, which of course is false.

My context was the land promise

You are twisting my words. And trying to make it sound like I have said something I never said. In fact I said plainly, all believers will receive the inheritance which comes with the promise in you shall ALL NATIONS be blessed. These promises include every spiritual blessing under heaven.

What they do not receive is the one promise that was ONLY given to Isreal.

But again, that is not the topic of this thread.

Another thing many of my Christian brethren have never thought to do, is to trace God's Birthright in The Old Testament Books from Abraham forward. And also at the same time, remember that The Gospel was part of that Birthright, since Abraham's Faith is what was counted as righteous, which is also why Apostle Paul said in Galatians 3 that those of Faith have become "the children of Abraham."

That reveals the care of The Gospel of Jesus Christ began with God's Promises to Abraham. Those promises (with the blessings) then went to Abraham's son Isaac, and then to his son Jacob, and then to his son Joseph, and finally wound upon Ephraim in final (1 Chronicles 5).

The Gospel of Jesus Christ is actually what the name 'Israel' represents per God's Birthright transfer to Jacob, His giving Jacob that new name, yet Jacob is still... used after the giving of the new name. That is to point us to 'reason' for the new name Israel being for those in Christ that 'overcome' with God's help. That is what the word Israel means.

And to Ephraim was the prophecy that his seed would become "a multitude of nations". That was fulfilled by the western Christian nations after they put their Baal idols away, like God had prophesied through His prophet Hosea. Jeroboam of the tribe of Ephraim was the head over the ten tribes, which God gave him. And this stewardship remained with Ephraim even to this day, him being still the head over all the other tribes of Israel in their new lands in the Christian west.

Then from there, they serve as ambassadors to take The Gospel to the rest of the nations.

But of course, you just bypass all those Biblical and historical facts I showed in my posts, which I kinda knew you would by what you had said already above.

The topic of this thread is about how prophesy and the nation of Israel being restored is used by God to prove to ALL THE NATIONS that God is the one true God.

Now if you are willing to stop twisting my words. And speak to the op. Can we please move forward?

 

[ScottA]

The hidden mystery of the cross? I can see that But the fact is. The prophecy was still fulfilled in the cross. It was hidden for a reason.

But we are talking about a people. And a promise given to that people. And how according to the promise given to that people prophecy concerning what they will do and what God will do for them is revealed.

As I showed in my ten points. Its not so this nation can be great, It is so God can show through his love for them, he is the one true God who loves the world.

Agreed.

Still, even such a people fulfillment may not be all that is anticipated, since those to whom the promise was given are all dead, and their modern linage may or may not have the same appreciation as those who died before it came to fruition. When we consider the account of Moses and Israel passing through the Red Sea, we have a tenancy to view all prophecy just as awesome. And again, the best example of this not always being the case, is the cross: What was anticipated to be a world victory, instead occurred as if it was a world failure, while unbeknownst to many it was the greatest of heavenly victories.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Agreed.

Still, even such a people fulfillment may not be all that is anticipated, since those to whom the promise was given are all dead, and their modern linage may or may not have the same appreciation as those who died before it came to fruition. When we consider the account of Moses and Israel passing through the Red Sea, we have a tenancy to view all prophecy just as awesome. And again, the best example of this not always being the case, is the cross: What was anticipated to be a world victory, instead occurred as if it was a world failure, while unbeknownst to many it was the greatest of heavenly victories.

I just look to the prophets.

1. It says whoever it is alive at the time of their descendents will confess their sin, and the sin f the fathers
2. It says they will ALL be save
3. It says they will put an end of their sin and walk with God.

I think a lot of the issue is peopel are looking at jews today. And say how can God bless them? They do not understand that we are talking about an Israel who repented and recieved Christ. They don;t follow their idols. They don;t look to the law for salvation. They see their savior. As you and I did

 

[Keraz]

Both you and Kiera’s on the one hand want me to believe it is the church (spiritual Israel) now. Not Isreal (national) that relieves the promises

Now you want to tell me it only the northern kingdom?

Which is it?

BOTH the Messianic Jews and the House of Israel, now the faithful Christian peoples, will join together in the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

But of course, you just bypass all those Biblical and historical facts I showed in my posts, which I kinda knew you would by what you had said already above.

People who believe they, the Church; will be raptured to heaven before the Great Tribulation, cannot accept the proven facts about who are the true Israel. It destroys their belief and so; when the great test of our faith comes; 1 Peter 4:12, many will renounce God because He didn't do what they fondly thought would happen.

Thanks for your posts 30,31,32 & 34, they are a clear exposition of how it was and now is; regarding the House of Israel.
People should read these truths carefully and base their beliefs on them.

 

[pittsburghjoe]

Did Judaism lose the claim to The Abrahamic Covenant after they couldn't claim Faith in The MESSIAH after His Advent? If so, why do we assume current day physical Israel has anything to do with GOD'S Promises?

Matthew 23:38-39
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.​

JESUS said “Ye shall not see me henceforth,”, He didn’t say He was handing them physical land back. And they didn’t Call out to Him anyways.

Matthew 21:43-45
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.​

Jeremiah 31:36-37
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.​

 

[Desire Of All Nations]

one of the promises of abraham given also to Isaac and Jacob and his 12 sons was land in the middle east. Peace and prosperity while living in that land.
Did Paul say we inherited that also? and if so. Why are we not there now?

The promises were not given to all of Jacob's sons. The genealogy in 1 Chr. 5:1-2 states twice that Joseph was given the birthright promises after Reuben defiled his father's bed. You can also read in Gen. 48:8-20 that the birthright was then passed on to Joseph's sons Manasseh and Ephraim, and that their national descendants in the last days were to be the collective beneficiaries of the birthright promises.

When the nation split into 2 kingdoms about 6 centuries later, the tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim rebelled against Solomon's son Rehoboam and formed their own kingdom with the help of the other northern tribes. When that happened, those 2 tribes effectively took the birthright promises with them. The nation as a whole were promised national prosperity only as long as they obeyed God's laws, which they never did on a consistent basis. There is no biblical record of God fulfilling those promises to ancient Israel, especially because the record shows God constantly having to use hostile armies to punish that nation(and the subsequent Israelite kingdoms) for its apostasy.

When the 1 nation became 2 separate kingdoms, the promises were also split apart in the process. Judah exclusively retained the messianic and monarchial promises(Gen. 49:10, Jer. 33:17, 2 Sam. 7:8-16, Jhn 4:22) while Manasseh and Ephraim exclusively retained the birthright promises of unprecedented national prosperity and military strength(Gen. 49:22-26). After the northern kingdom was enslaved by Assyria, the tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim eventually made their way to western Europe where they separated and became the United States and Great Britain. Consequently, the joint promises from Gen. 48:19 were then fulfilled between these 2 nations.

In Gen. 49, Jacob prophesied what would happen to all of the tribes' national descendants in the last days, but he never once said they would all enjoy peace and prosperity. When Paul spoke of Christians inheriting the promises that were given to Israel, he was exclusively referring to the messianic promises of grace and salvation.

 

[Dave Watchman]

Did Judaism lose the claim to The Abrahamic Covenant after they couldn't claim Faith in The MESSIAH after His Advent? If so, why do we assume current day physical Israel has anything to do with GOD'S Promises?

Matthew 23:38-39
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.​

JESUS said “Ye shall not see me henceforth,”, He didn’t say He was handing them physical land back. And they didn’t Call out to Him anyways.

Matthew 21:43-45
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.​

Jeremiah 31:36-37
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.​

Your note looks like the winner to me.

I think you won the internet for today Joe.

I had a longer note wrote up and sitting here as a draft.

Maybe I can win the internet tomorrow, if I decide to send it.

The Old Time Judaic prophecies were conditional in nature.

[IF] they put away the bodies of their dead kings, [THEN] show them the plan of the temple.

All these blessings will come on you and accompany you [IF] you obey the Lord your God.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Keraz]

Who are the people that will re-inhabit the holy Land after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Day of the Lord’s wrath? Revelation 6:12-17, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +

The true Israelites of God, those who come to live in the new country of Beulah, [Isaiah 62:1-5] cannot be those who are apostate or of any sort of deviant personality. But there must be many left alive in the world who will credit the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath to a natural event and continue on in their disbelief of a Creator God. They will form a One World Govt, as prophesied.

Ezekiel 20:37-38 is the best scripture that tells how the Lord will gather all Israel, then judge them and those who ‘revolt and rebel’, will not enter the Land. Jeremiah 5:26-29

Amos 9:10…the sinners of My people will die by the sword… Isaiah 65:11-12
Isaiah 35:8-10…no one unclean will travel along the ‘Way of Holiness’ into Zion.

As we see in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7, it is the ‘holy ones of the Most High’ who are present in the Land during the end time events.

Unfortunately it is evident that the new Israelites go to some extent along the same path as their ancestors and in their prosperity, begin to fall away from the true faith in the Lord as their protector and they agree to a peace treaty with the AC. What the Lord thinks about this is in Isaiah 28:14-20 It seems that verses 21-22 refer to the great Tribulation.

The rest of the world’s nations will be under the One World Government, a ten region entity governed by councils each headed by a President. They will soon confer their power and authority onto one charismatic leader, Revelation 17:13
So then, unrighteous and evil people will be present on earth right up until the Return of Jesus. Then, many prophesies say how the wicked are doomed. But Satan will be released at the end of the 1000 years and he will ‘seduce the nations’ for the one last time. This will sort out those who have kept their faith and those who rebel for the last earthly judgement.

For us, knowing how important it is to keep firm hold onto trusting the Lord for our protection during the forthcoming traumatic times ahead, it is a matter of life or death- Life eternal with Jesus or Death; or eventual total annihilation.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

BOTH the Messianic Jews and the House of Israel, now the faithful Christian peoples, will join together in the holy Land. Jeremiah 50:4-5, Isaiah 35:1-10, Ezekiel 34:11-16, Romans 9:24-26

People who believe they, the Church; will be raptured to heaven before the Great Tribulation, cannot accept the proven facts about who are the true Israel. It destroys their belief and so; when the great test of our faith comes; 1 Peter 4:12, many will renounce God because He didn't do what they fondly thought would happen.

Thanks for your posts 30,31,32 & 34, they are a clear exposition of how it was and now is; regarding the House of Israel.
People should read these truths carefully and base their beliefs on them.

I am not worried about some so called rapture.

Let’s talk about the op. And How God redeeming Israel will bring the whole world to the knowledge of Christ.

I showed you how the church can not fulfill those prophecies. We can even speak of this.

What say you?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Did Judaism lose the claim to The Abrahamic Covenant after they couldn't claim Faith in The MESSIAH after His Advent? If so, why do we assume current day physical Israel has anything to do with GOD'S Promises?

Matthew 23:38-39
Behold, your house is left unto you desolate.

For I say unto you, Ye shall not see me henceforth, till ye shall say, Blessed is he that cometh in the name of the Lord.​

JESUS said “Ye shall not see me henceforth,”, He didn’t say He was handing them physical land back. And they didn’t Call out to Him anyways.

Matthew 21:43-45
Therefore say I unto you, The kingdom of God shall be taken from you, and given to a nation bringing forth the fruits thereof.

And whosoever shall fall on this stone shall be broken: but on whomsoever it shall fall, it will grind him to powder.

And when the chief priests and Pharisees had heard his parables, they perceived that he spake of them.​

Jeremiah 31:36-37
If those ordinances depart from before me, saith the LORD, then the seed of Israel also shall cease from being a nation before me for ever.

Thus saith the LORD; If heaven above can be measured, and the foundations of the earth searched out beneath, I will also cast off all the seed of Israel for all that they have done, saith the LORD.​

Why would you take a passage out of context?

Jeremiah 31:
31 “Behold, the days are coming, says the Lord, when I will make a new covenant with the house of Israel and with the house of Judah— 32 not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to lead them out of the land of Egypt, My covenant which they broke, though I was a husband to them, says the Lord. 33 But this isthe covenant that I will make with the house of Israel after those days, says the Lord: I will put My law in their minds, and write it on their hearts; and I will be their God, and they shall be My people. 34 No more shall every man teach his neighbor, and every man his brother, saying, ‘Know the Lord,’ for they all shall know Me, from the least of them to the greatest of them, says the Lord. For I will forgive their iniquity, and their sin I will remember no more.”

35 Thus says the Lord,
Who gives the sun for a light by day,
The ordinances of the moon and the stars for a light by night,
Who disturbs the sea,
And its waves roar
(The Lord of hosts is His name):

The verses you posted said if the ordinances depart.

Who gives the ordinances? GOD

They are not going to depart. And Israel will repent. So Israeli will NOT BE CAST AWAY FOREVER.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The promises were not given to all of Jacob's sons. The genealogy in 1 Chr. 5:1-2 states twice that Joseph was given the birthright promises after Reuben defiled his father's bed. You can also read in Gen. 48:8-20 that the birthright was then passed on to Joseph's sons Manasseh and Ephraim, and that their national descendants in the last days were to be the collective beneficiaries of the birthright promises.

When the nation split into 2 kingdoms about 6 centuries later, the tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim rebelled against Solomon's son Rehoboam and formed their own kingdom with the help of the other northern tribes. When that happened, those 2 tribes effectively took the birthright promises with them. The nation as a whole were promised national prosperity only as long as they obeyed God's laws, which they never did on a consistent basis. There is no biblical record of God fulfilling those promises to ancient Israel, especially because the record shows God constantly having to use hostile armies to punish that nation(and the subsequent Israelite kingdoms) for its apostasy.

When the 1 nation became 2 separate kingdoms, the promises were also split apart in the process. Judah exclusively retained the messianic and monarchial promises(Gen. 49:10, Jer. 33:17, 2 Sam. 7:8-16, Jhn 4:22) while Manasseh and Ephraim exclusively retained the birthright promises of unprecedented national prosperity and military strength(Gen. 49:22-26). After the northern kingdom was enslaved by Assyria, the tribes of Manasseh and Ephraim eventually made their way to western Europe where they separated and became the United States and Great Britain. Consequently, the joint promises from Gen. 48:19 were then fulfilled between these 2 nations.

In Gen. 49, Jacob prophesied what would happen to all of the tribes' national descendants in the last days, but he never once said they would all enjoy peace and prosperity. When Paul spoke of Christians inheriting the promises that were given to Israel, he was exclusively referring to the messianic promises of grace and salvation.

How many times do we need to repost this passage?

Ez 37:
15 Again the word of the Lord came to me, saying, 16 “As for you, son of man, take a stick for yourself and write on it: ‘For Judah and for the children of Israel, his companions.’ Then take another stick and write on it, ‘For Joseph, the stick of Ephraim, and for all the house of Israel, his companions.’ 17 Then join them one to another for yourself into one stick, and they will become one in your hand.

18 “And when the children of your people speak to you, saying, ‘Will you not show us what you mean by these?’— 19 say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the stick of Joseph, which is in the hand of Ephraim, and the tribes of Israel, his companions; and I will join them with it, with the stick of Judah, and make them one stick, and they will be one in My hand.” ’ 20 And the sticks on which you write will be in your hand before their eyes.

21 “Then say to them, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “Surely I will take the children of Israel from among the nations, wherever they have gone, and will gather them from every side and bring them into their own land; 22 and I will make them one nation in the land, on the mountains of Israel; and one king shall be king over them all; they shall no longer be two nations, nor shall they ever be divided into two kingdoms again.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Your note looks like the winner to me.

I think you won the internet for today Joe.

I had a longer note wrote up and sitting here as a draft.

Maybe I can win the internet tomorrow, if I decide to send it.

The Old Time Judaic prophecies were conditional in nature.

[IF] they put away the bodies of their dead kings, [THEN] show them the plan of the temple.

All these blessings will come on you and accompany you [IF] you obey the Lord your God.

Peaceful Sabbath.

The abrahamic covenant was not conditional.

And he did not win, He took a passage out of context. And totally twisted what was actually said.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Who are the people that will re-inhabit the holy Land after all that area is cleared and cleansed by the Day of the Lord’s wrath? Revelation 6:12-17, Zephaniah 1:1-18, Ezekiel 30:1-5, +

The true Israelites of God, those who come to live in the new country of Beulah, [Isaiah 62:1-5] cannot be those who are apostate or of any sort of deviant personality. But there must be many left alive in the world who will credit the terrible Day of the Lord’s wrath to a natural event and continue on in their disbelief of a Creator God. They will form a One World Govt, as prophesied.

Ezekiel 20:37-38 is the best scripture that tells how the Lord will gather all Israel, then judge them and those who ‘revolt and rebel’, will not enter the Land. Jeremiah 5:26-29

Amos 9:10…the sinners of My people will die by the sword… Isaiah 65:11-12
Isaiah 35:8-10…no one unclean will travel along the ‘Way of Holiness’ into Zion.

As we see in Daniel 7:25, Revelation 13:7, it is the ‘holy ones of the Most High’ who are present in the Land during the end time events.

Unfortunately it is evident that the new Israelites go to some extent along the same path as their ancestors and in their prosperity, begin to fall away from the true faith in the Lord as their protector and they agree to a peace treaty with the AC. What the Lord thinks about this is in Isaiah 28:14-20 It seems that verses 21-22 refer to the great Tribulation.

The rest of the world’s nations will be under the One World Government, a ten region entity governed by councils each headed by a President. They will soon confer their power and authority onto one charismatic leader, Revelation 17:13
So then, unrighteous and evil people will be present on earth right up until the Return of Jesus. Then, many prophesies say how the wicked are doomed. But Satan will be released at the end of the 1000 years and he will ‘seduce the nations’ for the one last time. This will sort out those who have kept their faith and those who rebel for the last earthly judgement.

For us, knowing how important it is to keep firm hold onto trusting the Lord for our protection during the forthcoming traumatic times ahead, it is a matter of life or death- Life eternal with Jesus or Death; or eventual total annihilation.

What you just did here is mix the time after the return of Christ with the tribulation period where the leader of a ten nation coalition will give its power to a king, who will be destroyed by the lord himself.

You have two different time periods here my friend/

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Time to get back to the op.

Does anyone want to discuss this?

As for Israel and prophecy. God through the prophet Ezekiel tells us 10 times. That God u=will use Israel to prove to Israel and all the nations that he is the Lord God

Each step along the way to Israel’s complete restoration is meant to be a sign to show both Israel and the nations that God is the Lord. Each of these signs is identified by some form of the phrase “You will know that I am the Lord” and there are ten of them.

In effect He was saying, “You will know that I am the Lord,


1. When Israel is settled in the land in the land and they become fruitful and prosperous Israel will know

Ezekiel 36: 11 I will multiply upon you man and beast; and they shall increase and bear young; I will make you inhabited as in former times, and do better for you than at your beginnings. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.

2. When Israel repents. The nations will know that The god of heaven is the Lord

Ez 36: 22 “Therefore say to the house of Israel, ‘Thus says the Lord God: “I do not do this for your sake, O house of Israel, but for My holy name’s sake, which you have profaned among the nations wherever you went. 23 And I will sanctify My great name, which has been profaned among the nations, which you have profaned in their midst; and the nations shall know that I am the Lord,” says the Lord God, “when I am hallowed in you before their eyes.


3. When God has rebuilt what was destroyed and replanted what was desolate The nations will know

Ez 36: 36 Then the nations which are left all around you shall know that I, the Lord, have rebuilt the ruined places and planted what was desolate. I, the Lord, have spoken it, and I will do it.”

4. When I fill the rebuilt cities with people

Ez 36: 38 Like a flock offered as holy sacrifices, like the flock at Jerusalem on its feast days, so shall the ruined cities be filled with flocks of men. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.”

5. When I bring back to life a people long dead
Ez 37: 6 I will put sinews on you and bring flesh upon you, cover you with skin and put breath in you; and you shall live. Then you shall know that I am the Lord.” ’ ”

6. When I open their graves and bring My people up from them
Ez 37: 13 Then you shall know that I amthe Lord, when I have opened your graves, O My people, and brought you up from your graves.

7. When I put My spirit in them and settle them in their own land
Ez 37: 14 I will put My Spirit in you, and you shall live, and I will place you in your own land. Then you shall know that I, the Lord, have spoken it and performed it,” says the Lord.’ ”

8: When My sanctuary stands among them forever, The nations will know I am the lord and I sanctify Israel

Ez 37: 28 The nations also will know that I, the Lord, sanctify Israel, when My sanctuary is in their midst forevermore.” ’ ”

 

[Eternally Grateful]

9: When I defeat the Gog Magog coalition

Ez 38: 18 “And it will come to pass at the same time, when Gog comes against the land of Israel,” says the Lord God, “that My fury will show in My face. 19 For in My jealousy and in the fire of My wrath I have spoken: ‘Surely in that day there shall be a great earthquake in the land of Israel, 20 so that the fish of the sea, the birds of the heavens, the beasts of the field, all creeping things that creep on the earth, and all men who are on the face of the earth shall shake at My presence. The mountains shall be thrown down, the steep places shall fall, and every wall shall fall to the ground.’ 21 I will call for a sword against Gog throughout all My mountains,” says the Lord God. “Every man’s sword will be against his brother. 22 And I will bring him to judgment with pestilence and bloodshed; I will rain down on him, on his troops, and on the many peoples who are with him, flooding rain, great hailstones, fire, and brimstone. 23 Thus I will magnify Myself and sanctify Myself, and I will be known in the eyes of many nations. Then they shall know that I am the Lord.” ’


10: When I have finished calling My people back to Israel, not leaving any behind”

Ez 39: 21 I will set My glory among the nations; all the nations shall see My judgment which I have executed, and My hand which I have laid on them. 22 So the house of Israel shall know that I am the Lord their God from that day forward. 23 The Gentiles shall know that the house of Israel went into captivity for their iniquity; because they were unfaithful to Me, therefore I hid My face from them. I gave them into the hand of their enemies, and they all fell by the sword. 24 According to their uncleanness and according to their transgressions I have dealt with them, and hidden My face from them.” ’

25 “Therefore thus says the Lord God: ‘Now I will bring back the captives of Jacob, and have mercy on the whole house of Israel; and I will be jealous for My holy name— 26 after they have borne their shame, and all their unfaithfulness in which they were unfaithful to Me, when they dwelt safely in their own land and no one made them afraid. 27 When I have brought them back from the peoples and gathered them out of their enemies’ lands, and I am hallowed in them in the sight of many nations, 28 then they shall know that I am the Lord their God, who sent them into captivity among the nations, but also brought them back to their land, and left none of them captive any longer. 29 And I will not hide My face from them anymore; for I shall have poured out My Spirit On the house of Israel, Says the lord God

 

[Dave Watchman]

The abrahamic covenant was not conditional.

I read that it was transferred. God was transferring some things around in the NT era. A New Nation bearing the fruit is in charge now. They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel. By faith I, Dave from Pontiac, am Abraham's seed.

"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “Through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.​

And he did not win, He took a passage out of context. And totally twisted what was actually said.

He looks like he won to me. I can't find fault with his choice of Scripture. Plus he relies on the Scripture. I tend to write too much, or be too long winded in my extrapolation.

Plus I think I sit here with the empirical reason as to why literal Israel is sitting over there.

The answer is not one that most people on this forum want to hear.

God's not coming back to start up Old Israel again, put away your Herbert Armstrong and your Hal Lindsey material, the veil is rent already. They're just there now to hold up the sign that reads 1535 and 1969, 7 and 62, the two most recent decrees to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem.

Most of the people on here are trying to mix the OT end time prophecies with the Daniel/Revelation narrative. Yes there are parallels, but also anomalies, and in the end they just don't mix. There will be endless confusion when we try mixing the wine skins up.

Ezekiel's Gog/Magog is not the same as the Revelation version. If Ezekiel's Gog/Magog was going to happen, it would have happened already a long time ago. The end result will be the same: ie: camp of God's People surrounded prior to the wicked being destroyed, but the Revelation version will not have us burying those dead for seven years and burning their weapons.

Also, there's 5 different types of Biblical Prophecy, if I can remember to circle back to them it will help to clarify an understanding. Each one of the types of prophecy features different styles, specifications and distinguishing characteristics. The OT Judaic Prophecies, like from the Books of Ezekiel and Jeremiah, are conditional in nature and deal specifically with Ancient Israel.

IF they put away the bodies of their dead kings.

IF.

IF.

I'm just Dave here, but I don't need to be a barrister of contractual law to understand the ramifications of "IF".

"Now let them put away their whoring and the dead bodies of their kings far from me, and I will dwell in their midst forever. “As for you, son of man, describe to the house of Israel the temple, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and they shall measure the plan.

"And IF they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple, its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, that is, its whole design; and make known to them as well all its statutes and its whole design and all its laws, and write it down in their sight, so that they may observe all its laws and all its statutes and carry them out.​

"IF" they put away their whoring and the dead bodies of their kings far from me, God will dwell in their midst forever.

"IF" they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple.

What if they don't put away their whoring?

What if they're not ashamed of what they've done?

Show them the design of the temple anyway?

Not likely.

Sorry folks. All this stuff was supposed to happen already, IF the Old Time Jews would have redeemed the 70 weeks.

If they would have just let Jesus gather them as a hen gathers it's chicks, Ezekiel's temple would have been built already. But they missed the time of their Visitation.

To Seal Both Vision and Prophet.

God had three prophets in operation at the same time. Daniel, Ezekiel and Jeremiah. Three prophets prophesying, but He was giving them two different end time narratives, Everything would hinge on Israel's behaviour during the 70 weeks, and especially the first half of the 70th week.. 70 weeks were determined, 70 weeks were "chawthak" or cut off. It really was Old Israel's one last and final chance:

• to finish the transgression,
• to put an end to sin,
• and to atone for iniquity,
• to bring in everlasting righteousness,
• to seal both vision and prophet,
• and to anoint a most holy place.

It was in their midst. All that they would have had to do was to accept their Messiah. It's why John the Baptist was always saying that the Kingdom of God was at hand. Because it really was at hand right then and there. If the Old Time Jews would have cooperated and accepted their Messiah it would have been a completely different world right now. Daniel would have remained forever sealed, Revelation would have never been written. We would have built Ezekiel's Temple sometime in the middle ages.

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.​

What if they had been willing? What if they did let Jesus gather them? Can we not read into this, even now, that something different would have taken place back then? The original plan was for the Jews to accept their Messiah, then Jesus would have began the Kingdom of God on earth right away because it really was "at hand" at that time. John the Baptist would not have died the way that he did, "lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction". Jesus would have sent disciples out from Jerusalem to invite anyone who wanted to be saved to come and live there in the Kingdom of God in the 1st century. The good news of the Kingdom of God would have travelled far and fast. Jerusalem would have eventually grown to such a huge population that it's walls could no longer contain it.

Then, after some time, Satan in the guise of Gog Magog would attempt to attack the unwalled Holy City but Jesus would destroy him and his army where they stood and we would spend the next seven years burying them and burning their wooden weapons. And the wolf would lay down with the lamb and we could watch an infant stick his hand into a viper's den while we built Ezekiel's Temple.

But now instead, the seed of Abraham gets transferred to a new nation, Paul gets knocked off his horse, the NT and Revelation gets written, Daniel gets unsealed for the final generation, we get an end time Babylon, an end time Antichrist, mark of the beast, two witnesses of 144,000, Jesus makes His second Visitation and we have a brand New Jerusalem with an end time variation on Gog Magog.

But there shan't be a need to burn any wooden weapons for seven years.

Peaceful Sabbath.

 

[Keraz]

What you just did here is mix the time after the return of Christ with the tribulation period where the leader of a ten nation coalition will give its power to a king, who will be destroyed by the lord himself.

You have two different time periods here my friend/

The time period when the new Christian nation of Beulah will be established, is BEFORE Jesus Returns and BEFORE the Great Trib. And BEFORE the Gog/ Magog attack.
Soon AFTER the Sixth Seal devastation has cleared the Land for them.

Proved by how God's people are present in all of the holy Land, when Gog attacks. Ezekiel 38:8 & 12
By how they are there when the leader of the OWG comes to them and cuts a 7 year peace treaty with them.
By how God's holy people are there when that leader breaks that treaty and conquers them. Daniel 7:25 & 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2

Most of the people on here are trying to mix the OT end time prophecies with the Daniel/Revelation narrative. Yes there are parallels, but also anomalies, and in the end they just don't mix.

But Daniel and Revelation ARE a generally parallel regarding the end times events. I see no anomalies.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I read that it was transferred. God was transferring some things around in the NT era. A New Nation bearing the fruit is in charge now. They are not all Israel who are descended from Israel. By faith I, Dave from Pontiac, am Abraham's seed.

"But it is not as though the word of God has failed. For they are not all Israel who are descended from Israel; nor are they all children because they are Abraham’s descendants, but: “Through Isaac your descendants will be named.” That is, it is not the children of the flesh who are children of God, but the children of the promise are regarded as descendants.​

He looks like he won to me. I can't find fault with his choice of Scripture. Plus he relies on the Scripture. I tend to write too much, or be too long winded in my extrapolation.

Plus I think I sit here with the empirical reason as to why literal Israel is sitting over there.

The answer is not one that most people on this forum want to hear.

God's not coming back to start up Old Israel again, put away your Herbert Armstrong and your Hal Lindsey material, the veil is rent already. They're just there now to hold up the sign that reads 1535 and 1969, 7 and 62, the two most recent decrees to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem.

Most of the people on here are trying to mix the OT end time prophecies with the Daniel/Revelation narrative. Yes there are parallels, but also anomalies, and in the end they just don't mix. There will be endless confusion when we try mixing the wine skins up.

Ezekiel's Gog/Magog is not the same as the Revelation version. If Ezekiel's Gog/Magog was going to happen, it would have happened already a long time ago. The end result will be the same: ie: camp of God's People surrounded prior to the wicked being destroyed, but the Revelation version will not have us burying those dead for seven years and burning their weapons.

Also, there's 5 different types of Biblical Prophecy, if I can remember to circle back to them it will help to clarify an understanding. Each one of the types of prophecy features different styles, specifications and distinguishing characteristics. The OT Judaic Prophecies, like from the Books of Ezekiel and Jeremiah, are conditional in nature and deal specifically with Ancient Israel.

IF they put away the bodies of their dead kings.

IF.

IF.

I'm just Dave here, but I don't need to be a barrister of contractual law to understand the ramifications of "IF".

"Now let them put away their whoring and the dead bodies of their kings far from me, and I will dwell in their midst forever. “As for you, son of man, describe to the house of Israel the temple, that they may be ashamed of their iniquities; and they shall measure the plan.

"And IF they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple, its arrangement, its exits and its entrances, that is, its whole design; and make known to them as well all its statutes and its whole design and all its laws, and write it down in their sight, so that they may observe all its laws and all its statutes and carry them out.​

"IF" they put away their whoring and the dead bodies of their kings far from me, God will dwell in their midst forever.

"IF" they are ashamed of all that they have done, make known to them the design of the temple.

What if they don't put away their whoring?

What if they're not ashamed of what they've done?

Show them the design of the temple anyway?

Not likely.

Sorry folks. All this stuff was supposed to happen already, IF the Old Time Jews would have redeemed the 70 weeks.

If they would have just let Jesus gather them as a hen gathers it's chicks, Ezekiel's temple would have been built already. But they missed the time of their Visitation.

To Seal Both Vision and Prophet.

God had three prophets in operation at the same time. Daniel, Ezekiel and Jeremiah. Three prophets prophesying, but He was giving them two different end time narratives, Everything would hinge on Israel's behaviour during the 70 weeks, and especially the first half of the 70th week.. 70 weeks were determined, 70 weeks were "chawthak" or cut off. It really was Old Israel's one last and final chance:

• to finish the transgression,
• to put an end to sin,
• and to atone for iniquity,
• to bring in everlasting righteousness,
• to seal both vision and prophet,
• and to anoint a most holy place.

It was in their midst. All that they would have had to do was to accept their Messiah. It's why John the Baptist was always saying that the Kingdom of God was at hand. Because it really was at hand right then and there. If the Old Time Jews would have cooperated and accepted their Messiah it would have been a completely different world right now. Daniel would have remained forever sealed, Revelation would have never been written. We would have built Ezekiel's Temple sometime in the middle ages.

“Jerusalem, Jerusalem, you who kill the prophets and stone those sent to you, how often I have longed to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under her wings, and you were not willing.​

What if they had been willing? What if they did let Jesus gather them? Can we not read into this, even now, that something different would have taken place back then? The original plan was for the Jews to accept their Messiah, then Jesus would have began the Kingdom of God on earth right away because it really was "at hand" at that time. John the Baptist would not have died the way that he did, "lest I come and strike the land with a decree of utter destruction". Jesus would have sent disciples out from Jerusalem to invite anyone who wanted to be saved to come and live there in the Kingdom of God in the 1st century. The good news of the Kingdom of God would have travelled far and fast. Jerusalem would have eventually grown to such a huge population that it's walls could no longer contain it.

Then, after some time, Satan in the guise of Gog Magog would attempt to attack the unwalled Holy City but Jesus would destroy him and his army where they stood and we would spend the next seven years burying them and burning their wooden weapons. And the wolf would lay down with the lamb and we could watch an infant stick his hand into a viper's den while we built Ezekiel's Temple.

But now instead, the seed of Abraham gets transferred to a new nation, Paul gets knocked off his horse, the NT and Revelation gets written, Daniel gets unsealed for the final generation, we get an end time Babylon, an end time Antichrist, mark of the beast, two witnesses of 144,000, Jesus makes His second Visitation and we have a brand New Jerusalem with an end time variation on Gog Magog.

But there shan't be a need to burn any wooden weapons for seven years.

Peaceful Sabbath.

Please look to my last two posts. That is what this thread is about.

I am not going down this rabbit trail anymore.

Thank you

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The time period when the new Christian nation of Beulah will be established, is BEFORE Jesus Returns and BEFORE the Great Trib. And BEFORE the Gog/ Magog attack.
Soon AFTER the Sixth Seal devastation has cleared the Land for them.

Proved by how God's people are present in all of the holy Land, when Gog attacks. Ezekiel 38:8 & 12
By how they are there when the leader of the OWG comes to them and cuts a 7 year peace treaty with them.
By how God's holy people are there when that leader breaks that treaty and conquers them. Daniel 7:25 & 9:27, Zechariah 14:1-2

But Daniel and Revelation ARE a generally parallel regarding the end times events. I see no anomalies.

Same to you bro. Please look at the ten points of prophecy and how they bring people to the knowledge of Christ and that is the purpose.

Would love to discuss that

 

[Dave Watchman]

But Daniel and Revelation ARE a generally parallel regarding the end times events.

I know.

When I said OT end times, I was talking about the Ezekiel story.

I see no anomalies.

Not between Daniel and Revelation, but between those and the Ezekiel version.

The point is, if you are correct in your read, we have a ways to go until the end. There's a whole bunch of more things to be set up and built before it happens.

But if I'm right, it's happening now, we are already inside of the last heptad based on two more modern day decrees to restore and to rebuild Jerusalem.

Also, there's 5 different types of Biblical Prophecy, if I can remember to circle back to them it will help to clarify an understanding. Each one of the types of prophecy features different styles, specifications and distinguishing characteristics. The OT Judaic Prophecies, like from the Books of Ezekiel and Jeremiah, are conditional in nature and deal specifically with Ancient Israel.

Five Types of Bible Prophecy:

1) Local Prophecy

These would include Noah's flood, or Jonah's visit to the people of Nineveh. Maybe that old time king who saw his shadow move backwards, and Moses' dealings with Pharaoh and the curses of Egypt..

2) Messianic Prophecy

These had to do specifically with our Lord's first Visitation. Like Isaiah 52

He Was Pierced for Our Transgressions
Behold, my servant shall act wisely;
he shall be high and lifted up,
and shall be exalted.

As many were astonished at you—
his appearance was so marred, beyond human semblance,
and his form beyond that of the children of mankind—
so shall he sprinklec many nations.

Kings shall shut their mouths because of him,
for that which has not been told them they see,
and that which they have not heard they understand.​

3) Day of the Lord Prophecy

Very peculiar in their structure. Like Isaiah 13. John MacArthur calls them near/far prophecies. In a Day of the Lord Prophecy the prophet can begin in an ancient Day of the Lord event to do with the Babylonians, and then can seem to peer down through the millennia to the final and ultimate Day of the Lord event that will include all those who dwell on the face of the whole earth.

4) Judaic Prophecy

These are conditional in nature. Prophecies that pertained specifically to ancient Israel. If you do this, then I will do that. If they put away the bodies of their dead kings, then show them the plan of the Temple.

"If you fully obey the Lord your God and carefully follow all his commands I give you today, the Lord your God will set you high above all the nations on earth. All these blessings will come on you and accompany you if you obey the Lord your God​

5) Apocalyptic Prophecy

Apocalyptic Prophesy has unique characteristics. These end time prophecies hold to chronological order. Each of these have a beginning point in time, and an ending point in time. In Revelation, when that chronological order is broken, and the subject matter changes, a new prophecy will begin. There are 17 Apocalyptic prophecies, and 18 prophetic time periods, in the Books of Daniel and Revelation.

I also think Matthew 24, Mark 13 and maybe 2 Thessalonians 2 would fit the criteria of this end time type of prophecy.


“If you keep your feet from breaking the Sabbath
and from doing as you please on my holy day,
if you call the Sabbath a delight

and the Lord’s holy day honorable, and
If you honor it by not going your own way
and not doing as you please or speaking idle words,

Then you will find your joy in the Lord,
and I will cause you to ride in triumph on the heights of the land
and to feast on the inheritance of your father Jacob.”

The mouth of the Lord has spoken.


Peaceful Sabbath.