Israel? Or the church?

[Ruminator]

@Davy, if we are "very close to the end of this world," would you say that John was wrong to say that the Antichrists had already shown up in the first century, just before the war with Rome? And that it was "the last hour"?

Why did Jesus chide the men of his own generation for not recognizing the signs?:

[Matthew 16:3 NKJV] (3) "and in the morning, '[It will be] foul weather today, for the sky is red and threatening.' Hypocrites! You know how to discern the face of the sky, but you cannot [discern] the signs of the times.

Were the men correct to ignore the signs of their time, and Jesus wrong to say they should "flee the wrath to come" upon that very generation?:

[Matthew 23:33-38 NKJV] (33) "Serpents, brood of vipers! How can you escape the condemnation of hell? (34) "Therefore, indeed, I send you prophets, wise men, and scribes: [some] of them you will kill and crucify, and [some] of them you will scourge in your synagogues and persecute from city to city, (35) "that on you may come all the righteous blood shed on the earth, from the blood of righteous Abel to the blood of Zechariah, son of Berechiah, whom you murdered between the temple and the altar. (36) "Assuredly, I say to you, all these things will come upon this generation. (37) "O Jerusalem, Jerusalem, the one who kills the prophets and stones those who are sent to her! How often I wanted to gather your children together, as a hen gathers her chicks under [her] wings, but you were not willing! (38) "See! Your house is left to you desolate;

[Matthew 3:1-12 NKJV] (1) In those days John the Baptist came preaching in the wilderness of Judea, (2) and saying, "Repent, for the kingdom of heaven is at hand!" (3) For this is he who was spoken of by the prophet Isaiah, saying: "The voice of one crying in the wilderness: 'Prepare the way of the LORD; Make His paths straight.' " (4) Now John himself was clothed in camel's hair, with a leather belt around his waist; and his food was locusts and wild honey. (5) Then Jerusalem, all Judea, and all the region around the Jordan went out to him (6) and were baptized by him in the Jordan, confessing their sins. (7) But when he saw many of the Pharisees and Sadducees coming to his baptism, he said to them, "Brood of vipers! Who warned you to flee from the wrath to come? (8) "Therefore bear fruits worthy of repentance, (9) "and do not think to say to yourselves, 'We have Abraham as [our] father.' For I say to you that God is able to raise up children to Abraham from these stones. (10) "And even now the ax is laid to the root of the trees. Therefore every tree which does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. (11) "I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance, but He who is coming after me is mightier than I, whose sandals I am not worthy to carry. He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit and fire. (12) "His winnowing fan [is] in His hand, and He will thoroughly clean out His threshing floor, and gather His wheat into the barn; but He will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire."

 

[amigo de christo]

And Toronto.

That thing was an abomination . yet most our churches fell for it .

 

[Ruminator]

That thing was an abomination . yet most our churches fell for it .

Toronto Blessing:

Rodney Howard-Browne Net worth. Browne has an estimated Net Worth of $140 Million as of 2020.

Brownsville Revival:

Typical Pentecostal emotionalism, worked up crowd, etc.:

The estimated Net Worth of Michael S Brown is at least $7.03 Million dollars as of 25 June 2021.

Evangelicals are easily duped:

 

[amigo de christo]

Toronto Blessing:

Rodney Howard-Browne Net worth. Browne has an estimated Net Worth of $140 Million as of 2020.

Brownsville Revival:

Typical Pentecostal emotionalism, worked up crowd, etc.:

The estimated Net Worth of Michael S Brown is at least $7.03 Million dollars as of 25 June 2021.

Evangelicals are easily duped:

Nor am i political . Its all a farce . Learn the Jesus of the bible , flee ROME , flee politics , flee most all churches is all i can say .
Learn bible well , stay in bible and follow that Christ .

 

[Truth7t7]

And there WILL... be a 'literal' restoration of the kingdom of Israel on this earth, as written in God's Word, in both Old and New Testament Books. Ezekiel 47 & 48 is Israel's final layout in the holy lands of promise. So because you go against that which is clearly written in God's Word, that shows you like push the leaven doctrines of man instead of staying in God's Word. That means... YOU ARE NOT TO BE TRUSTED.

Your claim is in error, Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-2 below is the same place in the "Eternal Kingdom" in the "New Heaven and Earth", not a mortal kingdom on this existing earth as you claim

Same river and tree of life, same fruit for food, same leaves for healing/medicine

Davy will you continue to teach against the truth thats before your eyes?

Ezekiel 47:12KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Revelation 22:1-2KJV
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

 

[Jay Ross]

Your claim is in error, Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-2 below is the same place in the "Eternal Kingdom" in the "New Heaven and Earth", not a mortal kingdom on this existing earth as you claim

Same river and tree of life, same fruit for food, same leaves for healing/medicine

Davy will you continue to teach against the truth that is before your eyes?

Ezekiel 47:12KJV
12 And by the river upon the bank thereof, on this side and on that side, shall grow all trees for meat, whose leaf shall not fade, neither shall the fruit thereof be consumed: it shall bring forth new fruit according to his months, because their waters they issued out of the sanctuary: and the fruit thereof shall be for meat, and the leaf thereof for medicine.

Revelation 22:1-2KJV
1 And he shewed me a pure river of water of life, clear as crystal, proceeding out of the throne of God and of the Lamb.
2 In the midst of the street of it, and on either side of the river, was there the tree of life, which bare twelve manner of fruits, and yielded her fruit every month: and the leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations.

My reading of both passages does not come to the same conclusion as you have presented.

In the Ezekiel passage that you quoted, Ezekiel is taken in the spirit as far as the river when it cascades over the escarpment into the lowlands and swamps and he ten returns along the river bank to the start of his time in this vision in the spirit. These trees were seen as Ezekiel was walking back along the river bank towards the temple where he started the vision in these 12 verses. The trees along the river bank that Ezekiel saw in his vision in time, covered a period from when God first occupied Solomon's temple up to and including the time of the GWTR judgement. The trees that he saw grew out of the saints in the river of life, and they feed the people and brought healing to the people over this 4000 years period.

In the Revelation 20 passage, the river is flowing out of the temple that comes down out of heaven after the GWTR judgement, and the tree of life has become available for the Saints to consume. This tree of life is not mentioned in the Ezekiel prophecy passage.

It seems to me that your timeline references are out a tad with Davy's timeline understanding.

Shalom

 

[Truth7t7]

My reading of both passages does not come to the same conclusion as you have presented.

In the Ezekiel passage that you quoted, Ezekiel is taken in the spirit as far as the river when it cascades over the escarpment into the lowlands and swamps and he ten returns along the river bank to the start of his time in this vision in the spirit. These trees were seen as Ezekiel was walking back along the river bank towards the temple where he started the vision in these 12 verses. The trees along the river bank that Ezekiel saw in his vision in time, covered a period from when God first occupied Solomon's temple up to and including the time of the GWTR judgement. The trees that he saw grew out of the saints in the river of life, and they feed the people and brought healing to the people over this 4000 years period.

In the Revelation 20 passage, the river is flowing out of the temple that comes down out of heaven after the GWTR judgement, and the tree of life has become available for the Saints to consume. This tree of life is not mentioned in the Ezekiel prophecy passage.

It seems to me that your timeline references are out a tad with Davy's timeline understanding.

Shalom

We will disagree, Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-2 is exactly the same river and Tree of life, same fruit on the tree for food, same leaves for healing/medicine in the Eternal kingdom in the new heaven and earth

We Disagree

 

[Jay Ross]

We will disagree, Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-2 is exactly the same river and Tree of life, same fruit on the tree for fruit, same leaves for healing/medicine

Please, consider the passages carefully. I do not mind if you stick to your opinion, just as Davy also sticks to his, but please before you respond, consider that I had suggested that there was a difference in time between the two passages which shows that your opinion may be not firmly based on the scriptures. I presented no contrary POV with regards to the river in both passages.

Shalom

 

[Truth7t7]

Please, consider the passages carefully. I do not mind if you stick to your opinion, just as Davy also sticks to his, but please before you respond, consider that I had suggested that there was a difference in time between the two passages which shows that your opinion may be not firmly based on the scriptures. I presented no contrary POV with regards to the river in both passages.

Shalom

I disagree with your difference in time Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-2 is exactly the same river and Tree of life, same fruit on the tree for food, same leaves for healing/medicine in the Eternal kingdom in the new heaven and earth

We Disagree

 

[Jay Ross]

I disagree with your difference in time Ezekiel 47:12 & Revelation 22:1-2 is exactly the same river and Tree of life, same fruit on the tree for food, same leaves for healing/medicine in the Eternal kingdom in the new heaven and earth

We Disagree

So be it.

 

[Brakelite]

I would like to clarify a couple of things about the meaning of ‘Antichrist’.
Before we look at the antichrist, I want to look at the real Christ. Who is He? Let us go to the scriptures to find out what and Who He claimed to be.

Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words. Greater even than the very law of God enshrined within. (Or at least it used to be). Only one person can be greater than any law of God, and that is the lawgiver.

38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted an entire city of the children of Ishmael totaling maybe 60,000 people. Nineveh. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater than Jonah.

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater even than Solomon.

In the three startling claims as shown above, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus. Priest, prophet, and King.

It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti– as in antichrist, according to Strong’s concordance, and like other words having the prefix ‘anti’, means at it’s most basic form “in the room of”, “instead of”, or “in the place of”.
In other words, ‘antichrist’ stands as a substitute. A substitute for the true Christ. We all know that Satan works by deception. In fact, Jesus warned constantly that the church needed to beware of being deceived, many times. Warning that we ought not go chasing claims made by others that Christ has already come. Yet many would claim the ‘antichrist’ will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. That he will set himself up in a new temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, demand the world's worship, and establish some sort of 'mark' that identifies his faithful and which will deny everyone else the rights of normal living. Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this? This scenario has been made into movies, books, Hollywood has created numerous versions of the same theme, nearly the whole world is expecting this very scenario to take place. How will the world be deceived when it happens? I put it to you that this very scenario, is the deception that overtakes the world. In fact, it already has. And it was invented by the very church that had the most to gain by its success. The Antichrist itself.
As to what I spoke of earlier, the ministry of Christ as Priest, Prophet, and King, I will deal with in a subsequent post.
All I ask of you now is to think carefully about the above, not go off half cocked, and consider the implications and the foundations to what you believe, and where they originate.

 

[amigo de christo]

I would like to clarify a couple of things about the meaning of ‘Antichrist’.
Before we look at the antichrist, I want to look at the real Christ. Who is He? Let us go to the scriptures to find out what and Who He claimed to be.

Matthew 12:6 But I say unto you, That in this place is one greater than the temple.

The temple, the priesthood, and the religious system of the Jewish nation go hand in hand. It was the mainstay and focal point of the life of Israel. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater. Greater even than the very High priest who no doubt would take great interest in hearing a report of these words. Greater even than the very law of God enshrined within. (Or at least it used to be). Only one person can be greater than any law of God, and that is the lawgiver.

38 ¶ Then certain of the scribes and of the Pharisees answered, saying, Master, we would see a sign from thee.
39 But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
40 For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale’s belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth.
41 The men of Nineveh shall rise in judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: because they repented at the preaching of Jonas; and, behold, a greater than Jonas is here.

Jonah was the most powerful and successful of all OT prophets. In all 40 odd chapters of Jeremiah, there is no record of anyone at anytime taking the slightest bit of notice of anything Jeremiah said. Yet Jonah, on the strength of just one or two sermons, converted an entire city of the children of Ishmael totaling maybe 60,000 people. Nineveh. By any standards, that has got to be recorded as a very successful evangelistic campaign. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater than Jonah.

42 The queen of the south shall rise up in the judgment with this generation, and shall condemn it: for she came from the uttermost parts of the earth to hear the wisdom of Solomon; and, behold, a greater than Solomon is here.

Solomon was the wisest and wealthiest and most successful of any ruler of the ancient world. Yet Jesus claimed to be greater even than Solomon.

In the three startling claims as shown above, we have before us the threefold ministry of Jesus. Priest, prophet, and King.

It has been said, and I think wisely, that the Bible must be understood grammatically before it can be understood theologically. Anti– as in antichrist, according to Strong’s concordance, and like other words having the prefix ‘anti’, means at it’s most basic form “in the room of”, “instead of”, or “in the place of”.
In other words, ‘antichrist’ stands as a substitute. A substitute for the true Christ. We all know that Satan works by deception. In fact, Jesus warned constantly that the church needed to beware of being deceived, many times. Warning that we ought not go chasing claims made by others that Christ has already come. Yet many would claim the ‘antichrist’ will be one who will charge in on a black horse guns blazing with fury and hatred directed at all things Christian and opposing with great force the church. That he will set himself up in a new temple in Jerusalem and proclaim himself as God, demand the world's worship, and establish some sort of 'mark' that identifies his faithful and which will deny everyone else the rights of normal living. Pray tell me, how will the world be deceived by such a tactic as this? This scenario has been made into movies, books, Hollywood has created numerous versions of the same theme, nearly the whole world is expecting this very scenario to take place. How will the world be deceived when it happens? I put it to you that this very scenario, is the deception that overtakes the world. In fact, it already has. And it was invented by the very church that had the most to gain by its success. The Antichrist itself.
As to what I spoke of earlier, the ministry of Christ as Priest, Prophet, and King, I will deal with in a subsequent post.
All I ask of you now is to think carefully about the above, not go off half cocked, and consider the implications and the foundations to what you believe, and where they originate.

Take a peek at the picture of your owl my friend . Looks like that bird knows more than most all preachers of today know .
THE DAY OF THE LORD IS A COMING , and there wont be no second chance . IF you dont go with THE LORD
you better do as the owl does . DUCK N TUCK cause its over and done with .

 

[Hidden In Him]

And how does this teaching distort truth? By giving Christians a false sense of security. If Satan’s attention is focused

upon the Middle East, then the church must be free to go about its business unmolested right?

Nah, LoL. I don't normally label positions (and I know that's not what you are into either), but in this case you are presenting a straw man argument to the Futurist position. I have never believed the church will go unmolested. In fact, I have stated specifically the opposite more times than I can count, and subscribe to prophecies both ancient and modern that say the exact opposite.

The Antichrist will be Muslim, and I'm assuming I need not post multiple pictures of Muslims beheading Christians to prove my point. They murder Christians today, they have murdered millions in the past, and they will murder many more millions in the future.
The Horrific Killing of Christians in Nigeria

God bless, and I'd like to participate in this thread, but while I always respect your posts I don't really take this as a serious argument. It may apply to some who aren't very well studied, but not to me or anyone I read.

 

[quietthinker]

God's Kingdom is not a new thing....at least not if one pans out far enough from our stricken planet. We are the Death Star so to speak in all God's handiwork and it is here that Jesus prays 'thy kingdom come on Earth as it is in Heaven'
I would venture to say the term 'heaven' is not restricted to the personal abode of God only. I would include it to mean the rest of God's vast creation throughout the Universe.

Watching Jesus through the records we have of him, listening to his words, it is clear he has come to introduce a way of seeing, of hearing, a way of being which is totally foreign to the planet's inhabitants. In fact it is so foreign the only way they could deal with it is to get rid of him.

Jesus tells us, 'do not resist an evil man'.....now, who of us takes this seriously? Yes, yes, I can understand the natural man whose ego is enthroned would seek redress for hurt and offence but what about those who claim to be 'reborn' yes, reborn, waxing lyrical about their experience, those claiming to have a change of heart, me included, what about them? Goodness gracious me, Mahatma Ghandi who claimed Hinduism as his religion had a better handle on this than you and I.

Do we have a vision of Jesus returning to Earth brandishing a sword and frying the opposition proactively retaliating against unbelievers where 'believers' can sit smugly and pridefully and say 'I told you so'?

What have we done with the spearhead of Jesus's reality and that of his Apostle Paul who tells us 'love holds no record of wrongs'? How do we reconcile these words and the pervasive attitude of many claiming a rebirth?

God's Kingdom is a present reality in the making on this planet.....Jesus introduced it and lived by its reality....it had him killed.
Jesus was doing a new thing long foretold by Prophets; his Kingdom was not of this world and resisting evil by brandishing swords or applying human muscle was not part of the plan. Why should it be anytime after that? How is it that we dismiss 'Jesus Christ the same yesterday, today and tomorrow' so easily because it doesn't fit into our multitude of constructed theologies?

Those who have embraced the humble teacher from Nazareth see God's Kingdom as present but as through a glass darkly....they live by faith in hope what has been begun will continue even in the conflicted human heart until the rescue mission which Jesus promised.
....and rescue from what? ...from an imploding planet ....from the inhabitants who themselves are imploding and on track for self destruction.....insisting violence is a solution....from those doing what comes natural to the natural man.

 

[Truth7t7]

The Antichrist will be Muslim

The Jews will receive a future Antichrist that will be supposedly of the Davidic lineage of Hebrew blood

Untold scripture is dedicated to Israel receiving this future Antichrist, and you think they will receive a Muslim as their Messiah "Not"

 

[Hidden In Him]

The Jews will receive a future Antichrist that will be supposedly of the Davidic lineage of Hebrew blood

Untold scripture is dedicated to Israel receiving this future Antichrist, and you think they will receive a Muslim as their Messiah "Not"

Military leaders of foreign nations have never given the Jews a "choice," and this has been true of all the Antichrist figures of the past, including Antiochus IV and Caligula. Do you think pagan rulers who conquered Jerusalem or threatened to would have asked their permission?

 

[Brakelite]

Nah, LoL. I don't normally label positions (and I know that's not what you are into either), but in this case you are presenting a straw man argument to the Futurist position. I have never believed the church will go unmolested. In fact, I have stated specifically the opposite more times than I can count, and subscribe to prophecies both ancient and modern that say the exact opposite.

The Antichrist will be Muslim, and I'm assuming I need not post multiple pictures of Muslims beheading Christians to prove my point. They murder Christians today, they have murdered millions in the past, and they will murder many more millions in the future.
The Horrific Killing of Christians in Nigeria

God bless, and I'd like to participate in this thread, but while I always respect your posts I don't really take this as a serious argument. It may apply to some who aren't very well studied, but not to me or anyone I read.

Patience my friend. All shall be revealed, for I don't venture forth into such delicate territories without first having a reasoned and Biblically and historically sound justification for doing so. Post #51 above is the introduction, with more to come.

 

[Ruminator]

Nor am i political . Its all a farce . Learn the Jesus of the bible , flee ROME , flee politics , flee most all churches is all i can say .
Learn bible well , stay in bible and follow that Christ .

Rome was never the problem in the NT. In the NT, the Problem was Jerusalem.

 

[Brakelite]

Rome was never the problem in the NT. In the NT, the Problem was Jerusalem.

Pagan Rome was a problem, and Jerusalem appealed to them to subdue the church in instances where Jerusalem had no power. a few centuries later, Papal Rome inherited the throne of the Caesars, took upon itself civil power in Rome, and through political means and superstitious fear coerced other nations to submit to Papal authority, who used the various armies of those nations to subdue the church. Thus Rome has ever been the problem.

 

[Truth7t7]

Military leaders of foreign nations have never given the Jews a "choice," and this has been true of all the Antichrist figures of the past, including Antiochus IV and Caligula. Do you think pagan rulers who conquered Jerusalem or threatened to would have asked their permission?

Judaism is looking for a Jew as Messiah AKA The Antichrist, they wont receive a Muslim as the returned Messiah

Chabad.Org

Who Is Moshiach (the Jewish Messiah)?

The Messianic Redemption will be ushered in by a person, a human leader, a descendant of Kings David and Solomon, who will reinstate the Davidic royal dynasty. According to tradition, Moshiach will be wiser than Solomon, and a prophet around the level of Moses.

Ever since the destruction of the Holy Temple, in every generation there is an individual, a scion of the House of David, who has the potential to be the Moshiach. If at any moment the Jews are worthy of redemption, this person would be directed from Above to assume the role of the redeemer.

In every generation there is a scion of the House of David who has the potential to be the MoshiachDuring the Messianic Era, the Moshiach will serve a dual role. He will be a monarch, ruling over all of humanity with kindness and justice, and upholding the law of the Torah—613 commandments for the Jews, and seven for the non-Jews. He will also be the ultimate teacher, the conduit for the deepest and most profound dimensions of the Torah which will then be revealed by G‑d.

How are we to identify the Moshiach?

Moshiach is not identified by his ability to perform earth-shattering miracles. In fact, he isn't required to perform any miracles at all (although the performance of miracles doesn't disqualify him either).

The following are the criteria for identifying the Moshiach, as written by Maimonides:

If we see a Jewish leader who (a) toils in the study of Torah and is meticulous about the observance of the mitzvot, (b) influences the Jews to follow the ways of the Torah and (c) wages the "battles of G‑d"—such a person is the "presumptive Moshiach."