It is mandatory for BACs to participate in their salvation

[williemac]

You seem oblivious of the consequence of scripture twisting.

You're actually saying that Jesus is commanding Christians to fall back to Satan.

williemac; "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."

williemac; " Therefore, as we can see from Galatians, a believer who falls back into works of law for justification is in fact falling back to Satan. "
Again, I ask.

A: Do you stand by your teaching which ultimately declares that Jesus is leading Christians to Satan?

B: Have you realized you've fallen into extreme error in understanding of the scriptures?

Which is it?

Again, this isn't a personal attack against you.

When a person is teaching that doing what Jesus says to do will lead to Satan ... it must be pointed out for the benefit of all.


Let's not overlook the, "IF".

"But Christ as a son over his own house; whose house are we, if we hold fast the confidence and the rejoicing of the hope firm unto the end."

Do we love one another, if we're walking in sin?

Do we love Jesus, if we're walking in sin?

How can ye believe, which receive honour one of another, and seek not the honour that cometh from God only?

He that loveth me not keepeth not my sayings: ...

Why not just do what Jesus says?

Do we have a choice?

... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.


.

Once again, you are twisting the intention of my words. But that is not the real problem that I have with your replies. What I am doing is quoting from the bible and commenting on it. You also are doing the same. So far so good. But what we are doing is simply playing paper covers rock with the bible. The letter to the Galatians was not my idea. Paul wrote it under the inspiration of the Holy Spirit. It says what it says. If we want to enter into life, we do it by faith and not by keeping the commandments. That is what it says.

So now we are looking at two places in scripture that say the opposite thing. That is why you and I are in this debate on opposite sides. We are laying our foundation on two differing and opposing principles. So which one is right?

In regards to this question of yours.....A: Do you stand by your teaching which ultimately declares that Jesus is leading Christians to Satan?

First things first. My teaching? Sorry, but I am not teaching anything. I am sharing what the bible says on the subject of salvation. But I cannot stand by your incredulous comment. Would anyone ever even dare to say that Jesus is leading Christians to Satan? C'mon, bro, snap out of it! You are the one who is making the opinionated connection to that. You are doing it to draw attention to what you feel is error in my understanding. I get that.

But I am declaring that you are choosing to use tunnel vision to stand by your understanding. Most, if not all of Paul's letters, contain the revelation that under the new covenant, we receive life by way of faith in the work and sacrifice of Jesus. And Paul specifically attacks the attempt to receive justification, salvation, or life, through the keeping of any commandments of law. You might want to ask Paul those questions you ask of me.

So then, you are hanging your position and argument on something that was said under the time frame of the old covenant, while ignoring the further revelations in scripture that things changed when Jesus died. The way to life changed both when Jesus died and because He died and rose again. This is our confidence of which you kindly quoted.
This was not my idea. I merely discovered it in the bible, along with the majority of Christendom, I might add. (refer to the above reply, as well). You are in a huge minority of those who refuse to go any further than Jesus' few comments about justification. Even Jesus Himself made contrary statements to the ones you are quoting. Your head is buried deep in the sand, my friend. It was probably placed there by your teachers and mentors. Run away from them. They are selling you a cause for boasting.

Another connection you are making is the one that all of this will lead people to sin. That is an assumption. The bible has never excused sin. God has merely changed the consequences of it from wrath, to chastening for those who are His by faith. The consequences of wrath remain the same for those who have not accepted the free gift of life, and do not have the Son by faith. But in Jesus' own words, those who are of faith will not come under judgment to condemnation, have everlasting life, and have passed from death to life (John5:24). Sounds like He contradicts His own words? No, He is speaking of the new covenant in His blood. That is His choice and His business. Take it up with Him if you don't like it!

 

[IBeMe]

williemac: Once again, you are twisting the intention of my words.

No, I'm trying to show you the impact of twisting scriptures.

You keep saying there are conflicts in the scriptures; that should be a wake-up call.

There's no discordance; you're just trying to twist the scriptures to make them mean what you want them to mean.

Here's a good example.

williemac: The letter to the Galatians was not my idea.

In Galatians, Paul says we're not under the Mosaic Law.

"Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years" ... and circumcision.

We see that Paul was speaking of things that were specifically a part of the Mosaic Law.

You're trying to twist Paul's words to mean that the commandments of God were done away.

This is a very fallacious endeavor ... thus you run into what you term, "conflicts."

Teaching that "Grace", means we don't have to keep the commandments of God is referred to in the Bible as, 'trying to turn grace into lasciviousness'; because in absence of God's rules, we're left to the will of the lasciviousnes of the flesh.

You also place yourself in direct opposition to the words of Jesus Christ, and even Paul; and Galatians.

In your endeavor to support an impossible supposition you've spun yourself into a rather malevolent position.

williemac; "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."

williemac; "Therefore, as we can see from Galatians, a believer who falls back into works of law for justification is in fact falling back to Satan."

You end up with a dogma that says, 'Jesus is telling us to follow Satan.'

Jesus is in clear violation if your dogma.

"... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Jesus violates your decree, "... if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation ..."

Even Paul ... and, yes, in Galatians ... violates your dogma.

Paul warns us in Galatians; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

Paul is in clear violation if your dogma.

"... they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Paul violates your decree, "... if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation ..."

So, Paul and Jesus are in 100% agreement, no conflict.

And, Paul and Jesus are in 100% disagreement to what you're teaching, BIG conflict.

Hopefully, this clears up your misunderstandings on Galatians, which would condemn Paul of teaching folks to follow Satan.

Again, I ask.

A: Do you stand by your teaching which ultimately declares that Jesus, and Paul, is leading Christians to Satan?

B: Have you realized you've fallen into extreme error in understanding of the scriptures?

Which is it?


.

 

[justaname]

No, I'm trying to show you the impact of twisting scriptures.

You keep saying there are conflicts in the scriptures; that should be a wake-up call.

There's no discordance; you're just trying to twist the scriptures to make them mean what you want them to mean.

Here's a good example.

williemac: The letter to the Galatians was not my idea.

In Galatians, Paul says we're not under the Mosaic Law.

"Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years" ... and circumcision.

We see that Paul was speaking of things that were specifically a part of the Mosaic Law.

You're trying to twist Paul's words to mean that the commandments of God were done away.

This is a very fallacious endeavor ... thus you run into what you term, "conflicts."

Teaching that "Grace", means we don't have to keep the commandments of God is referred to in the Bible as, 'trying to turn grace into lasciviousness'; because in absence of God's rules, we're left to the will of the lasciviousnes of the flesh.

You also place yourself in direct opposition to the words of Jesus Christ, and even Paul; and Galatians.

In your endeavor to support an impossible supposition you've spun yourself into a rather malevolent position.

williemac; "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."

williemac; "Therefore, as we can see from Galatians, a believer who falls back into works of law for justification is in fact falling back to Satan."

You end up with a dogma that says, 'Jesus is telling us to follow Satan.'

Jesus is in clear violation if your dogma.

"... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Jesus violates your decree, "... if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation ..."

Even Paul ... and, yes, in Galatians ... violates your dogma.

Paul warns us in Galatians; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

Paul is in clear violation if your dogma.

"... they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Paul violates your decree, "... if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation ..."

So, Paul and Jesus are in 100% agreement, no conflict.

And, Paul and Jesus are in 100% disagreement to what you're teaching, BIG conflict.

Hopefully, this clears up your misunderstandings on Galatians, which would condemn Paul of teaching folks to follow Satan.

Again, I ask.

A: Do you stand by your teaching which ultimately declares that Jesus, and Paul, is leading Christians to Satan?

B: Have you realized you've fallen into extreme error in understanding of the scriptures?

Which is it?


.

Every portion of your arguments were answered in my post yet you ignore it?

 

[williemac]

No, I'm trying to show you the impact of twisting scriptures.

You keep saying there are conflicts in the scriptures; that should be a wake-up call.

There's no discordance; you're just trying to twist the scriptures to make them mean what you want them to mean.

Here's a good example.

williemac: The letter to the Galatians was not my idea.

In Galatians, Paul says we're not under the Mosaic Law.

"Ye observe days, and months, and times, and years" ... and circumcision.

We see that Paul was speaking of things that were specifically a part of the Mosaic Law.

You're trying to twist Paul's words to mean that the commandments of God were done away.

This is a very fallacious endeavor ... thus you run into what you term, "conflicts."

Teaching that "Grace", means we don't have to keep the commandments of God is referred to in the Bible as, 'trying to turn grace into lasciviousness'; because in absence of God's rules, we're left to the will of the lasciviousnes of the flesh.

You also place yourself in direct opposition to the words of Jesus Christ, and even Paul; and Galatians.

In your endeavor to support an impossible supposition you've spun yourself into a rather malevolent position.

williemac; "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."

williemac; "Therefore, as we can see from Galatians, a believer who falls back into works of law for justification is in fact falling back to Satan."

You end up with a dogma that says, 'Jesus is telling us to follow Satan.'

Jesus is in clear violation if your dogma.

"... but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments."

Jesus violates your decree, "... if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation ..."

Even Paul ... and, yes, in Galatians ... violates your dogma.

Paul warns us in Galatians; "For the flesh lusteth against the Spirit, and the Spirit against the flesh: and these are contrary the one to the other: so that ye cannot do the things that ye would."

Paul is in clear violation if your dogma.

"... they which do such things shall not inherit the kingdom of God."

Paul violates your decree, "... if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation ..."

So, Paul and Jesus are in 100% agreement, no conflict.

And, Paul and Jesus are in 100% disagreement to what you're teaching, BIG conflict.

Hopefully, this clears up your misunderstandings on Galatians, which would condemn Paul of teaching folks to follow Satan.

Again, I ask.

A: Do you stand by your teaching which ultimately declares that Jesus, and Paul, is leading Christians to Satan?

B: Have you realized you've fallen into extreme error in understanding of the scriptures?

Which is it?


.

I stand by the teaching of both Jesus and Paul, my friend. What they ultimately say is that all have sinned and therefore need saving.

However, you are doing to others what you do with myself: ignore 90% of their reply and quote the rest out of context, the same you do with the bible.
When Jesus was tempted, the devil quoted scripture. He said.."it is written". Jesus replied with.." It is also written".

You like to quote where it is written that the way to life is to keep the commandments. But it is also written that no man has ever satisfied that requirement. Therefore Jesus satisfied them on our behalf. In Rom.5:8, Paul teaches that by the righteous act of one Man, the free gift of life came to all men.

Why are you trying to put a price on a free gift?

 

[IBeMe]

williemac: I stand by the teaching of both Jesus and Paul, my friend. What they ultimately say is that all have sinned and therefore need saving.

I've just been trying to show that liberal reengineering of the meaning of the scriptures only undermines the Word of God.

williemac: However, you are doing to others what you do with myself: ignore 90% of their reply and quote the rest out of context, the same you do with the bible.

Ever read a book review?
When talking to someone, do you repeat everything they say?

I don't try to tell anyone how to post, but I would prefer they didn't repeat every post unless they're emphasizing 100% agreement.

These threads are just about impossible to follow, particularly on a phone.

There's a general rule of thumb, on the Internet; you have to get to your point real quick.

Probably, no one will read this sentence because it's too far down in the text.

williemac: But it is also written that no man has ever satisfied that requirement

Yes, Paul says that, quoting a scripture.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

But, what was the point?

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

It is impossible for carnal man to keep the commandments of God.

That's the very reason Jesus came and died.

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

God can't change.
He can't change His righteousness, His definition of what's right and wrong.

So, we have a big predicament here!
God can't change His commandments ... can't accept sin.
Carnal man can't keep God's commandments.

What to do?
God can't change.
The only option left is for God to change man.

Thus, we have the miracle of Salvation.

Jesus died in our place ... God's judgment, the condemnation of death, was fulfilled.
We, by the power of God, are dead ... We're not under the Mosaic Law.
By the power of God, we're raised as regenerated born-of-the-Spirit new creatures; free from our past sins, and free from the power of sin.

Did God do away with His commandments, His definition of what's right and wrong; it's impossible for God to change.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

Do we still have to keep God's commandments?

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

We're still housed in the same body of flesh, and still have a fleshy mind.

The difference is, we have power over our fleshy mind, by ignoring it and following the Spirit.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

When we are raised new creatures in Christ Jesus, we find ourselves in the middle of raging spiritual warfare.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

Who are we going to serve?

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

God wants real friends.
Folks that will stand against Satan, the World, and the lusts of the flesh ... daring to believe God and walk in His commandments, defying all opposition.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Let's be overcomers!

"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:"

.

 

[williemac]

I've just been trying to show that liberal reengineering of the meaning of the scriptures only undermines the Word of God.


Ever read a book review?
When talking to someone, do you repeat everything they say?

I don't try to tell anyone how to post, but I would prefer they didn't repeat every post unless they're emphasizing 100% agreement.

These threads are just about impossible to follow, particularly on a phone.

There's a general rule of thumb, on the Internet; you have to get to your point real quick.

Probably, no one will read this sentence because it's too far down in the text.


Yes, Paul says that, quoting a scripture.

"For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;"

But, what was the point?

"For what the law could not do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God sending his own Son in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, condemned sin in the flesh:"

It is impossible for carnal man to keep the commandments of God.

That's the very reason Jesus came and died.

"That the righteousness of the law might be fulfilled in us, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

God can't change.
He can't change His righteousness, His definition of what's right and wrong.

So, we have a big predicament here!
God can't change His commandments ... can't accept sin.
Carnal man can't keep God's commandments.

What to do?
God can't change.
The only option left is for God to change man.

Thus, we have the miracle of Salvation.

Jesus died in our place ... God's judgment, the condemnation of death, was fulfilled.
We, by the power of God, are dead ... We're not under the Mosaic Law.
By the power of God, we're raised as regenerated born-of-the-Spirit new creatures; free from our past sins, and free from the power of sin.

Did God do away with His commandments, His definition of what's right and wrong; it's impossible for God to change.

"Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law."

Do we still have to keep God's commandments?

"What then? shall we sin, because we are not under the law, but under grace? God forbid."

We're still housed in the same body of flesh, and still have a fleshy mind.

The difference is, we have power over our fleshy mind, by ignoring it and following the Spirit.

"There is therefore now no condemnation to them which are in Christ Jesus, who walk not after the flesh, but after the Spirit."

When we are raised new creatures in Christ Jesus, we find ourselves in the middle of raging spiritual warfare.

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

Who are we going to serve?

"No man can serve two masters: for either he will hate the one, and love the other; or else he will hold to the one, and despise the other. Ye cannot serve God and mammon."

God wants real friends.
Folks that will stand against Satan, the World, and the lusts of the flesh ... daring to believe God and walk in His commandments, defying all opposition.

"He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; To him that overcometh will I give to eat of the tree of life, which is in the midst of the paradise of God."

Let's be overcomers!

"And let us consider one another to provoke unto love and to good works:"

.

So far, so good. I agree with much of this reply. We are A new creation. We have everlasting life. We have a new spirit, our new man, which has been created according to God in true righteousness and holiness (Eph.4:24). We are exhorted by Paul to put on this new man and to put off the old man.

But you have missed what is also written...again. God changed us, but left us in a weak and dependent condition, while still in this life and in this body. We have this treasure in earthen vessels, that the excellence of the power may be of God and not of us (2Cor.4:7).

What is also written is that we are under a new covenant. Under the old covenant, man's side of the agreement was to keep the law of commandments. Under the new covenant, our part is to believe the promise. This is the victory that overcomes the world: --our faith (1John 5:4).
One of the ways that we overcome is to recognize and oppose any temptations to fall back under the law for justification. This is what I am doing here. There are many good reasons to keep the moral commandments. Earning our way into everlasting life IS NOT ONE OF THEM!

You keep quoting a passage, but this time you had the wisdom to include the nest verse. Here it is:

"He that committeth sin is of the devil; for the devil sinneth from the beginning. For this purpose the Son of God was manifested, that he might destroy the works of the devil."

So here is the part that you seem to not understand........that HE might destroy the works of the devil." He is not me, it is not you, it is not us...it is ..HE. We do not destroy the works of the devil with our own works. He did it with HIS work and with HIS death.

And he who sins is the OLD MAN, who is crucified with Christ. The new man does not sin.

And by the way, I already expounded on Rom.8:1, and demonstrated how walking in the Spirit is a mindset. I am not interested in repeating it.

One more time...It was the sacrifice of Jesus at Calvary that put us in good standing with God. The penalty of sin was paid by Him. If you want to insult His pain and suffering by adding your behavior into the equation for your justification.. GOOD LUCK.

We will all sit before Christ on His judgment seat. Many works will be rewarded, many will be burned. But for those who's works are burned...."he himself will be saved"....as it is ALSO WRITTEN. SALVATION IS GOD'S WORK, NOT OURS.

Contrary to the OP's announcement..we do not participate in our salvation...we receive it by faith. From the beginning until the resurrection.

And before you go quoting James...faith without works...just a reminder. Every Christian has works. What we don't have is the ability to walk in absolute righteousness 24/7,365, in this life. This is why our justification can never be through our behavior. The standard is unattainable. We fail to reach it every single day. If you think you are, then your standard is too low. We will never equal the glory of God in this life. Faith is our only hope. His mercy is our only hope. His grace is our only hope. I implore all who read this. Do not place your confidence in the flesh.

 

[Dodo_David]

Again, I ask.

A: Do you stand by your teaching which ultimately declares that Jesus, and Paul, is leading Christians to Satan?

B: Have you realized you've fallen into extreme error in understanding of the scriptures?

Which is it?

Why should anyone respond to the presentation of a false dilemma?

 

[IBeMe]

Dodo_David:

... IBeMe, on 10 Dec 2013 - 08:03 AM, said:
... Again, I ask.

... A: Do you stand by your teaching which ultimately declares that Jesus, and Paul, is leading Christians to Satan?

... B: Have you realized you've fallen into extreme error in understanding of the scriptures?

... Which is it?

Why should anyone respond to the presentation of a false dilemma?

Ah, but it's not a false dilemma!

He dug a ditch for others ... I suppose, as a cute way if declaring those that don't agree are falling back to Satan; without drawing the ire of the Mod.

But he fell into the ditch he dug.

williemac; "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."

williemac; "Therefore, as we can see from Galatians, a believer who falls back into works of law for justification is in fact falling back to Satan."

So, his dogma is; 'if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation', the person 'is in fact falling back to Satan'.

Why does Jesus tell us to keep the commandments?

"... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandment ..."

We see Jesus teaching the very message that he has declared 'is in fact falling back to Satan'.

So, according to his dogma, Jesus is leading folks to follow Satan.

I'm just curious if he is standing by this strange, most would see as very perverse, dogma; or, perhaps, has come to realise that what he's been teaching is very unscriptural.

So, I ask again ... williemac ...

A: Do you stand by your declaration which declares that if we do what Jesus says, we're falling back to Satan?

B: Have you come to realise that you are in grave error in understanding the scriptures?

Which is it?

.

 

[williemac]

I have already answered all of your questions. I am sorry you don't like or accept the answers, but I am not responsible for your state of mind. You keep misrepresenting my words all you like. It is no skin off my nose. But your misrepresentation of the bible is not acceptable. You can say "it is written" all day long. But as I replied...."it is also written". Your tunnel vision will be your undoing if you are not careful. It is Satan, not God, who wants us to try to earn our salvation. What part of " not of yourselves" escapes your comprehension? Instead of running back to and quoting from the past replies, why don't you just reply to this one? Not compatible with your agenda? respectfully, Howie

 

[IBeMe]

williemac : You keep misrepresenting my words all you like.

Absolutely to the contrary, I'm careful to quote your words because you have been so kind to provide an explicit overall view of your teaching, which many would consider strangely perverse.

williemac; "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."

williemac; "Therefore, as we can see from Galatians, a believer who falls back into works of law for justification is in fact falling back to Satan."

You teach; 'if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation', the person 'is in fact falling back to Satan'.

We see Jesus teaching the very message that you declared 'is in fact falling back to Satan'.

"... if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandment ..."

williemac : It is Satan, not God, who wants us to try to earn our salvation.

Unfortunately, you twist what others say, and then argue against the perverted representation.

Show me where anyone said we "earn" salvation?

I encourage you to listen to Peter.

" And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: "

We're saved by faith in Jesus, but, as Peter warns, we will be judged according to our works.

When you try to twist, "judgeth according to every man's work" into "earn our salvation"; your fighting against the Gospel.

Peter says, "... this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

Peter warns against disobedience, you're stumbling at the word.

" And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. "

A: Are you standing by your teaching, which accuses Jesus of telling Christians to fall back to Satan?

B: After hearing Peter's warning, do you realise you've been stumbling at the Word?

Which is it?

.

 

[williemac]

I encourage you to listen to Peter.

" And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear: "

We're saved by faith in Jesus, but, as Peter warns, we will be judged according to our works.

When you try to twist, "judgeth according to every man's work" into "earn our salvation"; your fighting against the Gospel.

Peter says, "... this is the word which by the gospel is preached unto you."

Peter warns against disobedience, you're stumbling at the word.

" And a stone of stumbling, and a rock of offence, even to them which stumble at the word, being disobedient: whereunto also they were appointed. "

A: Are you standing by your teaching, which accuses Jesus of telling Christians to fall back to Satan?

B: After hearing Peter's warning, do you realize you've been stumbling at the Word?

Which is it?

.

My friend, where did Peter say that God will judge Christians (believers) according to their works in order to be justified or determine their eternal destiny?
I have never denied that our works will be judged. However, the bible confirms that unbelievers will perish in their sin and believers will not come under judgment unto condemnation. The judgment we are under is to determine our rewards, not our salvation to life. We already have life. He who has the Son, has life.

Heed Paul's words in Gal.2:16
"knowing that a man is not justified by the works of the law but by faith in Christ, even we have believed in Christ Jesus, that we might be justified by faith in Christ and not by the works of the law; for by the works of the law no flesh shall be justified." And in verse 21 "I do not set aside the grace of God; for if righteousness comes through the law, then Christ died in vain."

How is it that you don't connect the keeping of the commandments to the law? Gal.3:10..."For as many as are of the works of the law are under the curse" Why are you wanting to put us all back under the curse?

As Paul asked in 2:17...if we are found sinners, is Christ a minister of sin? Don't go twisting that. He was saying that through faith we are not found to be sinners. It is only by the law that anyone can be found to be a sinner. in vs. 18, he states' " for if I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor". What did he destroy?...next verse.." For I through the law died to the law that I might live to God" . Answer: the law

Here is the pearl that comes form these revelations: By the law is the knowledge of sin. Sin is transgression of law. Yes we will be judged by God for our works. But this judgment on believers is not according to the law, for we are not under the judgment of the law. Therefore we will not be judged as sinners as long as we are of faith in Christ.

John mentioned three categories of sin in the world; the lust of the flesh, the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life. I ask you, does it do any good to overcome only two out of the three? If a person is trying to be justified for life by his triumph over the first two, he unfortunately becomes guilty of the third one. What part of " not of yourselves" escapes your comprehension?

 

[IBeMe]

williemac :
My friend, where did Peter say that God will judge Christians (believers) according to their works in order to be justified or determine their eternal destiny?
I have never denied that our works will be judged. However, the bible confirms that unbelievers will perish in their sin and believers will not come under judgment unto condemnation. The judgment we are under is to determine our rewards, not our salvation to life. We already have life. He who has the Son, has life.

What? ... You've never read Peter? ... No wonder you're confused!

Yes, Christians can fall away.

Which have forsaken the right way, and are gone astray, following the way of Balaam the son of Bosor, who loved the wages of unrighteousness;

Yes, Christians who fall away and teach this 'turn grace into lasciviousness' doctrine face dire consequences, Peter warns us.

These are wells without water, clouds that are carried with a tempest; to whom the mist of darkness is reserved for ever.

williemac : How is it that you don't connect the keeping of the commandments to the law?

That would be analphabet.

See what Peter says.

"... to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them ..."

For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning. For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

Peter warns us about those who fall away and teach a doctrine denying the Lord.

But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.

That's why I'm wondering why you deny the words of Jesus?

williemac; "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."

williemac; "Therefore, as we can see from Galatians, a believer who falls back into works of law for justification is in fact falling back to Satan."

You teach; 'if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation', the person 'is in fact falling back to Satan'.

Jesus clearly says we have to keep the commandments to keep our salvation, "if thou wilt enter into life."

Why do you accuse Jesus, "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments", of teaching us to fall back to Satan?

.

 

[williemac]

A well without water is one who does not have the Spirit. Jesus promised that rivers of living water would flow out from His people. That is referring to the Spirit. Peter is talking about those who have not the Spirit. This is saved vs. lost, not good believers vs. bad believers.

I see you are twisting my words again. You quote me and then put your own words to it, as though that is what I am saying. You really think you are gaining any respect whatsoever from your piers on this site with such brutal misrepresentations of your opponents and the bible?

You are saying I am accusing Jesus? Snap out of it!! That is another attack of my character. On other sites you would have been banned by now. You're lucky for the tolerances here.

In Luke18:10-14, Jesus told of two men praying. The one man, a Pharisee, spoke of all the good things he was doing and thanked God he was not like the other man, a tax collector. The other man merely hung his head, beat his breast, confessed his sin, and asked for mercy. Jesus claimed that it was the latter of the two who went away justified..." for those who exalt themselves will be abased and those who humble themselves will be exalted."

Sin, by itself is not the most relevant issue. It was paid for at Calvary and will be forgiven. Jesus actually promised that all sin would be forgiven men. But what will not be forgiven is pride, the third thing John mentioned, which I referred to.

How can you even imagine that a proper understanding of truth can come by choosing only a few selected passages to follow and ignoring all the other ones? I have given you gems of scriptural truth and you act as though they are my own words, some of which you have even mocked.

I have explained the context of Jesus' words telling them to keep the commandments for eternal life. The context is the old covenant. The bible in no uncertain terms reveals that this is not the new covenant way to everlasting life. Just because you prefer to hang all your position on one thing Jesus said, doesn't mean diddly when it comes to understanding Him.

Those who have turned back to the lusts of the world went away because as John said..they were never of us in the first place. These are those who were never born again and whom Jesus never knew. Faith is the key to life. Faith gains access to grace. The new birth comes by grace, through faith in His sacrifice for sin. We are saved by grace through faith...not of ourselves..not of works lest any man should boast. This is what your position is opposing. It almost seems as though you don't believe it.

But I will concede that Peter was talking about those who turned away from the holy commandment once delivered to them. However, what is this holy commandment? Peter, on the day of Pentecost, did not speak of obeying the moral commandments. What he told them to do was turn from their rejection of Jesus and be rather baptized in His name for the remission of sin. They were told to put their faith in Jesus. They were told to turn to faith. What holy commandment did Peter give them? Believe!!!!! When you see the word 'commandment', it is obvious where you head is at. But John told us His commandment in 1John 3:23...."believe on the Lord Jesus and love one another". As he said...this is His commandment to the world. Faith and love. We are not talking about walking righteously to avoid punishment. But that is where your head is at. If we were to be doing that, no one would get in. No one can walk in flawless righteousness. No one. That demand is not in play in this covenant. We are to bear fruit..and as Jesus said...some 100, some 60, some 30. He has changed and cancelled the law's requirement for perfection. Lucky for you and everyone else.

 

[IBeMe]

williemac :
You are saying I am accusing Jesus? Snap out of it!! That is another attack of my character. On other sites you would have been banned by now. You're lucky for the tolerances here.

I never attacked your character.

You want to know if you're accusing Jesus?

Let's take a look at what you're teaching again.

williemac; "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."[/b]

Let's see what Jesus says.

"if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"

So, we have Jesus, in the New Testament, saying we have to keep the commandments to keep our salvation; enter into eternal life.

And, we have you saying Satan brought this message into the New Testament.

Remember, you asked my opinion on this.

After careful evaluation of what Jesus says, and what you are saying; there's only one possible conclusion.

You are saying that what Jesus did, established that the keeping of the commandments was necessary for eternal life, is what Satan did.

To answer your question, it does appear you confusing Jesus and Satan.

This shouldn't be hard to understand; where in the Bible does Satan tell anyone to keep the commandments of God?

See how silly this is when you think about it?

A: Do you still stand by your teachings that doing what Jesus says, keep the commandments so that we could enter into eternal life, is falling back to Satan.

B: Have you come to realise that you're teachings are contrary to the Bible?

Which is it?

.

 

[williemac]

Good grief. I am talking to a robot on a loop. Every reply is deja vu all over again. Never mind replying to my answers, explanations, or scriptures. Yeh, don't even bother actually trying to understand me. It would probably be too much to ask.

But I will say that our adversary is subtle. He will not directly tell us what he wants from us. But Paul figured him out when he asked the Galatians who had bewitched them. What was their offense? Keeping the law for justification. You figure that one out for yourself. Did Satan tell them to do that? Well, maybe not, but I can assure you...God didn't.

But as will be predictable, you will no doubt suggest....again... that I am saying do not keep the law. But for the record, I am not saying don't keep the law and I am not saying don't keep the commandments. You can ignore that if you wish.

I am not suggesting we disobey God. I am suggesting we do not try to justify ourselves by our behavior. This may be hard for you to squeeze into your brainwashed mind. My subject matter is about the reasons we do what we do. What I am opposing is the motivation of self salvation for what we do. We are saved as a gift of grace through faith...that is to say, through the acceptance of the freely given gift. This takes humility. The proud person cannot easily accept charity. The proud person wants to take some of the credit for what he is receiving. We have nothing from our own resources to give to God. Nothing except our thankful gratitude and worship.

Therefore this op is on dangerous ground in suggesting we participate in our salvation. It is a slap in the face of everything Paul had revealed to Him by our Lord about this covenant we are in, and much of what He said Himself while on earth. John 3:16 makes no mention of a man's participation other than faith. faith in the price that was paid forsin by our Lord and Savior. There is only ONE savior. We do not save ourselves. Salvation is not something we do, it is something done TO us and for us....by Someone else.

 

[KingJ]

This discussion is so dead -_- . Once saved always saved ''if truly saved'' is so close to Arminiasm!

OSAS believer commits mortals sins = was never saved. OSAS believer commits venial sins = Must repent and examine himself in fear and trembling before God confiming that he is in fact in the faith Phil 12:2.

Arminian, commits mortal sins = making shiwreck of salvation = Get right with God like your life depends on it. Commiting venial sins = repent sincerely thus allowing forgiveness according to Matt 18:22 to kick in.

Since we are not God and do not have access to the Lambs book of life, we can conclude that we almost believe the same thing! :wub:

A discussion on pure 5 pt Calvinism is a better use of time!

Therefore this op is on dangerous ground in suggesting we participate in our salvation.

As an Arminian I agree with that statement! The title and OP push the boundaries / are looking for an argument.

 

[IBeMe]

williemac :
Yeh, don't even bother actually trying to understand me.

I understand.
You leave no room for doubt.

williemac; "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."

Jesus; "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"

You're accusing Jesus of teaching Satan's doctrine.

Clearly, Jesus says that we must obey His commandments in order to keep our salvation.

Clearly, you say that this is Satan's doctrine.

So, Yes I understand what you're teaching.

The question is; do you understand what you're teaching?

A: Do you stand by your statement that accuses Jesus of teaching Satan's doctrine?

B: Have you come to realise that what your teaching is very false?

Which is it?

.

 

[williemac]

I understand.
You leave no room for doubt.

williemac; "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."

Jesus; "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"

You're accusing Jesus of teaching Satan's doctrine.

Clearly, Jesus says that we must obey His commandments in order to keep our salvation.

Clearly, you say that this is Satan's doctrine.

So, Yes I understand what you're teaching.

The question is; do you understand what you're teaching?

A: Do you stand by your statement that accuses Jesus of teaching Satan's doctrine?

B: Have you come to realise that what your teaching is very false?

Which is it?

.

As I said, you are just mindlessly repeating yourself without any acknowledgment of my attempts to explain what I said in light of scripture. This is a debate and discussion site. Your agenda is obviously oblivious to that.

How am I supposed to realize something you haven't proven to me? My statement does not accuse Jesus of teaching Satan's doctrine. My statement rather exposes what happens when things are taken out of context and conclusions are made that ignore and contradict the whole counsel of God.

For example, some will quote that we are to work out our salvation with fear and trembling. Yes, this is what the bible tells us to do. But what it doesn't say is .."work for it"...or, ."work it out or else lose it". However, this is what some people including yourself read into it.

Jesus said what He said. Keep the commandments to enter into life. But He ALSO said believe in Him for everlasting life. Only one of those can apply at a time. One is pre Calvary, the other post Calvary.

Jesus repeated what the law says. Obey it and avoid a curse. Obey it and receive life. However, we can prove without a shadow of doubt from scripture that this was a demand that no man could ever fulfill. Therefore the demand was given to prove our need for a savior. Therefore the law was and is a tutor to lead people to Christ. But after having come to Him for life, we are no longer under the tutor.

If we were still under the tutorship of the law, then I would certainly admit I have erred and that you are correct. However, I am merely following what I have found to be true...."It is also written". Why don't you just tear out 75% of your new testament. You are not using it.

 

[IBeMe]

williemac : How am I supposed to realize something...

I understand that you're very confused about the Mosaic Law, and the commandments of God.

Here's a basic rule of thumb to help you.
1. Jesus = good guy
2. Satan = bad guy

With that in mind, perhaps we can clear up some of this confusion.

williemac; (that's you) "However, if one obeys His commandments in order to keep his salvation, (equal to salvation by works) then yes, he is following after a doctrine contrived in the old covenant and brought into our covenant through the craftiness of Satan...in my humble opinion."

So, we have you saying that keeping the commandments of God to keep salvation, is the doctrine of Satan. (remember, Satan = bad guy)

Jesus; "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments" (remember, Jesus = good guy)

See what happened there? ... Jesus is saying we must keep the commandments of God to enter eternal life.

It should now be obvious, you're getting confused on who's the good guy, and who's the bad guy.

You're saying that Jesus is teaching Satan's doctrine!

Hopefully, this helps you to see just how confused you are on the basic principles of the Bible.

Here's another rule of thumb that holds true throughout the Bible.
1. Jesus (good guy) always wants us to keep the commandments of God.
2. Satan (bad guy) always tries to trick us into not keeping the commandments of God.


A: Do you now realise that we must, indeed, do what Jesus says; "if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments"?

B: Do you still claim that what Jesus is teaching is the doctrine of Satan?

Which is it?


Keep in mind that Jesus says that the law and the prophets were until John.

No, Jesus isn't confused as to what the Mosaic Law is, and what the commandments of God are.

"The law and the prophets were until John: since that time the kingdom of God is preached..."


.

 

[williemac]

You are not replying to my posts. You are simply quoting one sentence and then repeating yourself over and over. But you have missed one important item. You have concluded that sin is the #1 enemy of mankind. It is not. It is merely the result of something else. It is a symptom. The original offense was not transgression of law (sin).

The original offense was that of Lucifer, who determined to elevate his status to that of God. This has been described in various subtitles such as self righteousness, self exaltation, pride. The bad guy wants us to think that his agenda is to get people to sin. No, he accomplished that in the garden of Eden. He got that ball rolling. He has no need to help it along. Mankind does just fine in that department all by himself.

James said that we sin when we are drawn away BY OUR OWN DESIRES (James 1:14,15). So then, the more likely agenda of the bad guy, Satan, is to seduce mankind into the same offense that he originated: to take the place of God.

I have agreed all along that keeping the moral commandment is recommended. Your suggestion to the contrary is a bold faced lie (unless, of course, you are not actually reading my replies). Anyone who reads my posts can see for themselves. Your misrepresentations are public property for anyone to view. You might want to remember that others are reading this. What you do here says a lot about yourself.

I will not cease to confirm my real issue, which is self exaltation. (read Luke 18:10-14) So I will repeat my question to you: What part of "not of yourselves" escapes your comprehension? Salvation is a gift. Life is a gift. If sin could prevent it, then Christ died in vain.