It is not in the bible.....but believed

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Helen

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It's been so long since I looked into this forum...I had almost forgotten it was here.
I have to agree that Mary and Joseph had "Brethren" ( and probably sisteren too :)) after Jesus was born..or how could it state "Your Mother and brethren are outside..." Plus I have read writings of Josephus saying he " interviewed" Mary and some of Jesus siblings. " ..but yea I know.."that's not bible". Ha!
I also agree that a "first born"..just as in a race, ..a person cannot be first unless others are also in the race behind...
I believe you will find in the bible that all the "first borns" had following sibling.

Twinc...goodness, I was just thinking of you the other day. ( this is Helen) You always did enjoy a bit of conflict. But I prefer you Patience Strong quotations. ;) Glad to see that you are still alive and kicking...you must be pushing up there toward 90 now! Keep going brother.....
 

twinc

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so then we must ask did Mary lie if so why viz 'thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing'[Lk 2:48] and it seems they all knew He was the carpenter's son[Matt 13:55] - as for claiming inspiration and guidance via the H/S this is the unforgiveable sin and blasphemy - twinc
It's been so long since I looked into this forum...I had almost forgotten it was here.
I have to agree that Mary and Joseph had "Brethren" ( and probably sisteren too :)) after Jesus was born..or how could it state "Your Mother and brethren are outside..." Plus I have read writings of Josephus saying he " interviewed" Mary and some of Jesus siblings. " ..but yea I know.."that's not bible". Ha!
I also agree that a "first born"..just as in a race, ..a person cannot be first unless others are also in the race behind...
I believe you will find in the bible that all the "first borns" had following sibling.

Twinc...goodness, I was just thinking of you the other day. ( this is Helen) You always did enjoy a bit of conflict. But I prefer you Patience Strong quotations. ;) Glad to see that you are still alive and kicking...you must be pushing up there toward 90 now! Keep going brother.....
It's been so long since I looked into this forum...I had almost forgotten it was here.
I have to agree that Mary and Joseph had "Brethren" ( and probably sisteren too :)) after Jesus was born..or how could it state "Your Mother and brethren are outside..." Plus I have read writings of Josephus saying he " interviewed" Mary and some of Jesus siblings. " ..but yea I know.."that's not bible". Ha!
I also agree that a "first born"..just as in a race, ..a person cannot be first unless others are also in the race behind...
I believe you will find in the bible that all the "first borns" had following sibling.

Twinc...goodness, I was just thinking of you the other day. ( this is Helen) You always did enjoy a bit of conflict. But I prefer you Patience Strong quotations. ;) Glad to see that you are still alive and kicking...you must be pushing up there toward 90 now! Keep going brother.....


Hello Helen - what kept you away so long - did you just come on your own - straight back to business and a person can be both first and last and it just does not follow that Jesus siblings are Maryleborn - so you see the Church is right but does not always provide a suitable explanation that in this case the first and the last does not have siblings - twinc
 

Helen

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Well twinc my friend, I will no longer play your games of going round and round chasing my tail, you have your old box of tricks that you pull out to keep us "busy"...but getting nowhere. I am glad to see you, glad that you are still doing your rounds on the forums...but my friend I know in whom I believe and what I believe. Peace to your heart my brother...try studying the scriptures for yourself, allow God to speak to you, and not just accept everything that your RC church has taught you. But, I know that it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Ha! ;)
To me the scriptures are clear. But, that is just 'to me', we must follow what "we" each feel that the Lord has shown us. Knowing you for so long, I know that you always have your own answers before you even ask your question. So I just say 'pass'... .Many blessings upon you bro. ..behave yourself. ... x x x
 
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twinc

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Well twinc my friend, I will no longer play your games of going round and round chasing my tail, you have your old box of tricks that you pull out to keep us "busy"...but getting nowhere. I am glad to see you, glad that you are still doing your rounds on the forums...but my friend I know in whom I believe and what I believe. Peace to your heart my brother...try studying the scriptures for yourself, allow God to speak to you, and not just accept everything that your RC church has taught you. But, I know that it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Ha! ;)
To me the scriptures are clear. But, that is just 'to me', we must follow what "we" each feel that the Lord has shown us. Knowing you for so long, I know that you always have your own answers before you even ask your question. So I just say 'pass'... .Many blessings upon you bro. ..behave yourself. ... x x x
Well twinc my friend, I will no longer play your games of going round and round chasing my tail, you have your old box of tricks that you pull out to keep us "busy"...but getting nowhere. I am glad to see you, glad that you are still doing your rounds on the forums...but my friend I know in whom I believe and what I believe. Peace to your heart my brother...try studying the scriptures for yourself, allow God to speak to you, and not just accept everything that your RC church has taught you. But, I know that it's hard to teach an old dog new tricks. Ha! ;)
To me the scriptures are clear. But, that is just 'to me', we must follow what "we" each feel that the Lord has shown us. Knowing you for so long, I know that you always have your own answers before you even ask your question. So I just say 'pass'... .Many blessings upon you bro. ..behave yourself. ... x x x


Helen - no new tricks for old problems - so many claiming that they have been and are inspired by the H/S or spoken to by God who does not inspire or speak to the Pope or Catholics, all these gifted, inspired and guided ones blaspheme against the H/S by holding Him responsible for their bad fruits of division, disputes, contradictions and confusion etc - this is demonic and the unforgiveable sin as unrepented - twinc
 

twinc

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it is not in the bible

1/that Mary was a perpetual virgin.....she was married

2/that Jesus was a perpetual virgin.....He mixed with sinners and prostitutes

3/that Jesus said......Christians must be born again
 

twinc

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The scriptures do say that Christ fulfilled the mosaic law perfectly. He was a jew, he lived by jewish law and jewish law forbade fornication. Sex was only permitted between married people. So if Christ was known to be someone who upheld the entire law, then we can be absolutely sure that he did not violate the law on chastity.

As for his mother, the bible tells that us that she had other children. So she obviously had sexual relations with Joseph. Church traditions uphold the 'virgin' belief but its certainly not biblical. Perhaps its seemed romantic and holy to whoever came up with the idea, but its certainly not a teaching inspired by God.


that is exactly where you are wrong - the bible does not tell us Mary had other children and not only that but it seems you did not properly understand or assimilate the earlier part of Matthew 1 - there would be no question about Joseph being foster father for the Jews or Mary would have been stoned and Joseph also and Jesus would have been illegitimate etc - think again seriously and just simply accept what the Church rightly teaches - twinc
 
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BreadOfLife

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It's been so long since I looked into this forum...I had almost forgotten it was here.
I have to agree that Mary and Joseph had "Brethren" ( and probably sisteren too :)) after Jesus was born..or how could it state "Your Mother and brethren are outside..." Plus I have read writings of Josephus saying he " interviewed" Mary and some of Jesus siblings. " ..but yea I know.."that's not bible". Ha!
I also agree that a "first born"..just as in a race, ..a person cannot be first unless others are also in the race behind...
I believe you will find in the bible that all the "first borns" had following sibling.

Twinc...goodness, I was just thinking of you the other day. ( this is Helen) You always did enjoy a bit of conflict. But I prefer you Patience Strong quotations. ;) Glad to see that you are still alive and kicking...you must be pushing up there toward 90 now! Keep going brother.....
Unfortunately for you - this is not the Biblical definition of "Firstborn", which simply means the one who opened his mother's womb.

No - there is not one shred of Scriptural evidence to support the idea that Mary had any other children besides Jesus.
This is a Protestant invention and has never been taught by the historic Christian faith for 2000 years.

Also - there is no evidence that Josephus ever "interviewed" Mary or any of Jesus' relatives.
His "Antiquities of the Jews" was written after Mary's presumed death.
 

GodsGrace

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Unfortunately for you - this is not the Biblical definition of "Firstborn", which simply means the one who opened his mother's womb.

No - there is not one shred of Scriptural evidence to support the idea that Mary had any other children besides Jesus.
This is a Protestant invention and has never been taught by the historic Christian faith for 2000 years.

Also - there is no evidence that Josephus ever "interviewed" Mary or any of Jesus' relatives.
His "Antiquities of the Jews" was written after Mary's presumed death.
I don't see how Josephus could have interviewed Mary.
She kind of faded into the background by the time the Epistles started to be written.

Do you know of any ECF who spoke to this?
I can t find any,,, I've tried.

I mean about Jesus not having g brothers.
 

BreadOfLife

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I don't see how Josephus could have interviewed Mary.
She kind of faded into the background by the time the Epistles started to be written.

Do you know of any ECF who spoke to this?
I can t find any,,, I've tried.

I mean about Jesus not having g brothers.
Yes - several of them:

Origen
The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first fruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first fruit of virginity (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

Hilary of Poitiers
If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary's sons and not those taken from Joseph's former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, "Woman, behold your son," and to John, "Behold your mother" [John 19:26-27], as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).

Athanasius
Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that He took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary (Discourses against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Epiphanius
We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

Jerome
But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

"[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man" (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

Didymus the Blind
It helps us to understand the terms "firstborn" and "only begotten" when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin "until she brought forth her firstborn son" [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).

Ambrose of Milan
Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of maternal virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388])

Pope Siricius I
You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the Flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord's body, chat court of the eternal King (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).

Augustine
In being born of a virgin who chose to remain a virgin even before she knew who was to be born other, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

Leporius
We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).

Cyril of Alexandria
The Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly He was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).

 

GodsGrace

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Yes - several of them:

Origen
The Book [the Protoevangelium] of James [records] that the brethren of Jesus were sons of Joseph by a former wife, whom he married before Mary. Now those who say so wish to preserve the honor of Mary in virginity to the end, so that body of hers which was appointed to minister to the Word . . . might not know intercourse with a man after the Holy Spirit came into her and the power from on high overshadowed her. And I think it in harmony with reason that Jesus was the first fruit among men of the purity which consists in [perpetual] chastity, and Mary was among women. For it were not pious to ascribe to any other than to her the first fruit of virginity (Commentary on Matthew 2:17 [A.D. 248]).

Hilary of Poitiers
If they [the brethren of the Lord] had been Mary's sons and not those taken from Joseph's former marriage, she would never have been given over in the moment of the passion [crucifixion] to the apostle John as his mother, the Lord saying to each, "Woman, behold your son," and to John, "Behold your mother" [John 19:26-27], as he bequeathed filial love to a disciple as a consolation to the one desolate (Commentary on Matthew 1:4 [A.D. 354]).

Athanasius
Let those, therefore, who deny that the Son is by nature from the Father and proper to his essence deny also that He took true human flesh from the ever-virgin Mary (Discourses against the Arians 2:70 [A.D. 360]).

Epiphanius
We believe in one God, the Father almighty, maker of all things, both visible and invisible; and in one Lord Jesus Christ, the Son of God . . . who for us men and for our salvation came down and took flesh, that is, was born perfectly of the holy ever-virgin Mary by the Holy Spirit (The Man Well-Anchored 120 [A.D. 374]).

Jerome
But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

"[Helvidius] produces Tertullian as a witness [to his view] and quotes Victorinus, bishop of Petavium. Of Tertullian, I say no more than that he did not belong to the Church. But as regards Victorinus, I assert what has already been proven from the gospel—that he [Victorinus] spoke of the brethren of the Lord not as being sons of Mary but brethren in the sense I have explained, that is to say, brethren in point of kinship, not by nature. [By discussing such things we] are . . . following the tiny streams of opinion. Might I not array against you the whole series of ancient writers? Ignatius, Polycarp, Irenaeus, Justin Martyr, and many other apostolic and eloquent men, who against [the heretics] Ebion, Theodotus of Byzantium, and Valentinus, held these same views and wrote volumes replete with wisdom. If you had ever read what they wrote, you would be a wiser man" (Against Helvidius: The Perpetual Virginity of Mary 19 [A.D. 383]).

Didymus the Blind
It helps us to understand the terms "firstborn" and "only begotten" when the Evangelist tells that Mary remained a virgin "until she brought forth her firstborn son" [Matt. 1:25]; for neither did Mary, who is to be honored and praised above all others, marry anyone else, nor did she ever become the mother of anyone else, but even after childbirth she remained always and forever an immaculate virgin" (The Trinity 3:4 [A.D. 386]).

Ambrose of Milan
Imitate her [Mary], holy mothers, who in her only dearly beloved Son set forth so great an example of maternal virtue; for neither have you sweeter children [than Jesus], nor did the virgin seek the consolation of being able to bear another son (Letters 63:111 [A.D. 388])

Pope Siricius I
You had good reason to be horrified at the thought that another birth might issue from the same virginal womb from which Christ was born according to the Flesh. For the Lord Jesus would never have chosen to be born of a virgin if he had ever judged that she would be so incontinent as to contaminate with the seed of human intercourse the birthplace of the Lord's body, chat court of the eternal King (Letter to Bishop Anysius [A.D. 392]).

Augustine
In being born of a virgin who chose to remain a virgin even before she knew who was to be born other, Christ wanted to approve virginity rather than to impose it. And he wanted virginity to be of free choice even in that woman in whom he took upon himself the form of a slave (Holy Virginity 4:4 [A.D. 401]).

Leporius
We confess, therefore, that our Lord and God, Jesus Christ, the only Son of God, born of the Father before the ages, and in times most recent, made man of the Holy Spirit and the ever-virgin Mary (Document of Amendment 3 [A.D. 426]).

Cyril of Alexandria
The Word himself, coming into the Blessed Virgin herself, assumed for himself his own temple from the substance of the Virgin and came forth from her a man in all that could be externally discerned, while interiorly He was true God. Therefore he kept his Mother a virgin even after her childbearing (Against Those Who Do Not Wish to Confess That the Holy Virgin is the Mother of God 4 [A.D. 430]).
The protoevangdlium is believed to be a fake.
This discussion was going on in a different thread.

Thanks for the rest.
I'd like to use it for that thread, if you don't mind.
MaryMog is holding up your fort and doing a good job.
 

BreadOfLife

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The protoevangdlium is believed to be a fake.
This discussion was going on in a different thread.

Thanks for the rest.
I'd like to use it for that thread, if you don't mind.
MaryMog is holding up your fort and doing a good job.
Which thread?
 

epostle1

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The protoevangdlium is believed to be a fake.
This discussion was going on in a different thread.

The Protoevangelium of James is not official Church teaching. It is a historical document. It is believed to be fake by some because authentic history is their enemy.
 

twinc

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The Bible is quite clear that Joseph was not the father of Jesus; Joseph himself had a vision explaining how Mary came to be pregnant. It seems that Joseph did act as an earthly father figure to the Christ child, but Joseph was most certainly not his father.

The interperator is the Holy Spirit, which guides each believer into truth when studying the scriptures.


highly unlikely and definitely not here even though claimed - this is pure blasphemy blaming the Holy Spirit for division and confusion - btw what is really in contention is why other than to harass and mislead is why what is not in the bible viz Mary had children other than Jesus believed and or accepted whereas what is in the bible rejected viz that Joseph was the father of Jesus 'thy father and I have sought thee sorrowing and 'is not this the carpenter's son' - it says father and son - no mention of foster - twinc
 
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