It is time to give Pretrib a decent burial

[WPM]

There isn't ONE verse..or even two or three...that says..."Jesus only comes back ONLY at the end of the tribulation".
Now, you can post a verse that says Jesus will come back at the end of the tribulation...but, it will not say Jesus only comes back once and only once at the end of the tribulation.

Over the last little while I've presented you with scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men that shows Jesus comes back in an even we call the rapture prior to the 7 year tribulation.


If you don't want to believe the scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men...then so be it.

You have shown nothing because you have nothing, and your pattern is avoidance. When I press you to reveal your proof-texts you say things like: i have showed you it many times. This is a lie. This is deception, yet you refuse to apologize, and obviously do not feel any conviction. This is scary. That is why you cannot post it. It does not exist.

Prove what you claim. The first principle of evidence is: "he who alleges must prove!" Where is your evidence? Put it on the table.

I have showed you many passages above that show the coming of Christ is climactic, yet you carefully avoid them. You have to! The reader can search any page here and they will see you and your fellow Pretribbers ducking post after post, argument after argument and question after question. That is what Pretribbers do. Why? They have nothing. Your last responses reinforce that.

 

[WPM]

There isn't ONE verse..or even two or three...that says..."Jesus only comes back ONLY at the end of the tribulation".
Now, you can post a verse that says Jesus will come back at the end of the tribulation...but, it will not say Jesus only comes back once and only once at the end of the tribulation.

Over the last little while I've presented you with scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men that shows Jesus comes back in an even we call the rapture prior to the 7 year tribulation.


If you don't want to believe the scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men...then so be it.

Not true! Heb 9:28 "So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation."

As you can see: there is no tribulation period after this climatic coming. This is the end. There's no third coming here. That is your own invention. There is only one future coming of Jesus. The last time He appeared, He came as Savior. Now He's coming as judge. This is talking about His next appearance. This is talking about Him coming for His people. It is talking about the catching away. Those that are not looking and are not ready are going to be destroyed. Hello! Look at the multiple Scripture above that you have avoided that show that.

 

[WPM]

There isn't ONE verse..or even two or three...that says..."Jesus only comes back ONLY at the end of the tribulation".
Now, you can post a verse that says Jesus will come back at the end of the tribulation...but, it will not say Jesus only comes back once and only once at the end of the tribulation.

Over the last little while I've presented you with scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men that shows Jesus comes back in an even we call the rapture prior to the 7 year tribulation.


If you don't want to believe the scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men...then so be it.

I will try again:

The Greek word parousia appears 24 times in the New Testament. It is rendered “coming” in 22 passages and “presence” in 2. The word can be interpreted coming, arrival or presence and simply expresses in the Greek what it implies in the English. The word parousia is mostly applied in Scripture to the second coming of the Lord although it is not solely restricted to that Advent. In II Thessalonians 2:9 the word is applied to the arrival of antichrist. The word is also used in other passages to describe the coming or arrival of a person (1 Corinthians 16:17 and 2 Corinthians 7:6).

Notwithstanding, the first time we encounter the word parousia in relation to the coming of the Lord is in Matthew 24. The word is found in the disciples’ response to the Lord’s statement outside the temple – “verily I say unto you, There shall not be left here one stone upon another, that shall not be thrown down” (v2).

The disciples then question the Lord on the detail, meaning and timing of this solemn prophecy and of the end of the world by way of two questions in Matthew 24:3, asking,

(1) “Tell us, when shall these things be?” and
(2) “what shall be the sign of thy coming (or parousia), and of the end (or sunteleías, or completion, or consummation) of the world?”

In this passage, "the end of the world" is plainly identified with the coming of the Lord.

The Lord employs the word parousia in reply to the disciples second question in Matthew 24:23-28, when He says, “if any man shall say unto you (before the one final future second coming of the Lord), Lo, here is Christ, or there; believe it not. For there shall arise false Christs, and false prophets, and shall shew great signs and wonders; insomuch that, if it were possible, they shall deceive the very elect. Behold, I have told you before. Wherefore if they shall say unto you, Behold, he is in the desert; go not forth: behold, he is in the secret chambers; believe it not. For as the lightning cometh out of the east, and shineth even unto the west; so shall also the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Son be. Wheresoever is the carcase, there will be gathered together the eagles.”

Christ continues in Matthew 24:29-31, speaking of this one final future coming, “Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken: And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory. And he shall send his angels with a great sound of a trumpet, and they shall gather together his elect from the four winds, from one end of heaven to the other.”

This is the end! Jesus clearly comes “after the tribulation.”

Matthew 24:35-41 continues: “Heaven and earth shall pass away, but my words shall not pass away. But of that day and hour knoweth no man, no, not the angels of heaven, but my Father only. But as the days of Noe were, so shall also the coming (or parousia) of the Son of man be. For as in the days that were before the flood they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage, until the day that Noe entered into the ark, And knew not until the flood came, and took them all away; so shall also the coming of the Son of man be. Then shall two be in the field; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left. Two women shall be grinding at the mill; the one ‘shall be taken’ [Gr. paralambano], and the other left.”

After telling us that “heaven and earth shall pass away,” Jesus immediately tells us: “of that day and hour knoweth no man.” This final day that is approachingis coming unexpectedly. This fits in with the “thief in the night” scenario found elsewhere in Scripture. It would seem to confirm that the day that Christ returns is the day when the current corrupt natural order (both the creature and creation) is gloriously changed. The wicked and all corruption are destroyed when Jesus comes. The Lord here identifies the passing away of “heaven and earth” with “the coming of the Son of man.”

Christ describes this day as an unanticipated day for many – one that will find many unprepared. For those who are playing at religion they will be caught on. They will face the same punishment as the “hypocrite” when He comes: “there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.” The wicked are an all-inclusive group; they include every Christ-rejecter – from the religious professors to the outright profane hypocrites. They will all be caught in the destruction when they are left behind and the “heaven and earth ... pass away.”

The Lord uses the word parousia again in v 37 to equate the days preceding His coming to the days preceding Noah’s entry into the ark, saying, “as the days of Noe were, so shall also the parousia of the Son of man be.” In His reply, Christ confirmed, what the disciples already seem to have rightly comprehended, in their questioning, that His next Coming is His last and only future coming and that it ushers in “the end of the world (or age)”

We note three particular characteristics of this day, which will be repeated at the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ. (1) The wicked lived as if there was no judgement coming, verse 38 says, “they were eating and drinking, marrying and giving in marriage.” (2) The wicked were caught unexpected, verse 39 says, they “knew not until the flood came.” And finally, (3) the wicked were ALL destroyed, verse 39 says, “the flood came, and took them all away.”

 

[Scott Downey]

Yes a flood washes away things, so the comparison to the time of Noah and being taken away to destruction is apropos. Noah is protected in the ark and remains to inherit the earth, all others are killed, Noah found favor with God and was a preacher of righteousness; do the right things God wants you to do and you are saved from His wrath. This world and all them the live therein are on borrowed time being condemned already as they are the sons of disobedience.

Scripture often is designed to form word pictures in your mind.

Lot escaping from the cities of the plain with angelic assistance is analogous to Christ coming to gather His people to safety and destroy all the unbelieving and wicked with fire from the Lord out of heaven, shows what happens to the wicked, they are burned up in hellfire, while righteous Lot was divinely preserved. Jesus tells us to remember Lot's Wife though as a warning! Abraham looked at the destruction from afar, so just looking at it was not the problem. Lot's wife looked back and anyone looking back Jesus said is not fit for the kingdom of God.

Luke 9:62
But Jesus said to him, “No one, having put his hand to the plow, and looking back, is fit for the kingdom of God.”

Luke 17

28 Likewise as it was also in the days of Lot: They ate, they drank, they bought, they sold, they planted, they built; 29 but on the day that Lot went out of Sodom it rained fire and brimstone from heaven and destroyed them all. 30 Even so will it be in the day when the Son of Man is revealed.

31 “In that day, he who is on the housetop, and his [i]goods are in the house, let him not come down to take them away. And likewise the one who is in the field, let him not turn back. 32 Remember Lot’s wife. 33 Whoever seeks to save his life will lose it, and whoever loses his life will preserve it. 34 I tell you, in that night there will be two [j]men in one bed: the one will be taken and the other will be left. 35 Two women will be grinding together: the one will be taken and the other left. 36 [k]Two men will be in the field: the one will be taken and the other left.”

37 And they answered and said to Him, “Where, Lord?”

So He said to them, “Wherever the body is, there the eagles will be gathered together.”


God preserves the lives of His saints, the angels could not carry out the heaven ordered destruction until Lot was safe.

Genesis 19

18 Then Lot said to them, “Please, no, my lords! 19 Indeed now, your servant has found favor in your sight, and you have increased your mercy which you have shown me by saving my life; but I cannot escape to the mountains, lest some evil overtake me and I die. 20 See now, this city is near enough to flee to, and it is a little one; please let me escape there (is it not a little one?) and my soul shall live.”

21 And he said to him, “See, I have favored you concerning this thing also, in that I will not overthrow this city for which you have spoken. 22 Hurry, escape there. For I cannot do anything until you arrive there.”

Therefore the name of the city was called [d]Zoar.

23 The sun had risen upon the earth when Lot entered Zoar. 24 Then the Lord rained brimstone and fire on Sodom and Gomorrah, from the Lord out of the heavens. 25 So He [e]overthrew those cities, all the plain, all the inhabitants of the cities, and what grew on the ground.

26 But his wife looked back behind him, and she became a pillar of salt.

27 And Abraham went early in the morning to the place where he had stood before the Lord. 28 Then he looked toward Sodom and Gomorrah, and toward all the land of the plain; and he saw, and behold, the smoke of the land which went up like the smoke of a furnace. 29 And it came to pass, when God destroyed the cities of the plain, that God remembered Abraham, and sent Lot out of the midst of the overthrow, when He overthrew the cities in which Lot had dwelt.

 

[WPM]

Here is the venom you get when you challenge Pretrib on this board. There is particular viciousness with engaging with most Pretribs online. They do not take kindly to their views being challenged. There are a few exceptions like @Douggg, @Marilyn C and @William Barton. To engage with most Pretribs online can be vulgar experience. There is little grace. So sad! Here is how they engage with Posttribs:

MA2444 said: all of you post tribbers still have time to repent of your bull crap and get your eyes upon Jesus.

The Light said: Any Amil teachers are the blind leading the blind. There are things you can learn from them but for most part, they are the foolish virgins without a clue.

MA2444 said: Pull your panties back down outta your crack for now about it has to be pretrib. I'll get to that soon enough, lol.

MA2444 said:
Dont twist my words Satan.

MA2444 said:
that's not your agenda here! Satan!

MA2444 said:
You should seek someone to lay hands hands on you and see if you can get that evil spirit cast out of you.

MA2444 said:
I like to be very direct with the minions of the enemy so they know who they're dealing with.

Keep it up. Time is short for the ones serving darkness.

MA2444 said: it isnt really them that we're talking to when they act like that. It's the evil spirits that they are oppressed by (or possessed by?) Just like it says in Ephesians. That is...if Ephesians is true, LOL!

MA2444 said: Wow, look at that. Jerico started a good thread, and it's like the enemy dispatched a platoon of evil ones who seek to shut it down and derail it.

MA2444 said: an evil band of spirits instruct people to shut that thread down!

GeneZ said: I do not want an answer for you. It will only inspire the spirits that have been inspiring you to concoct another clever work around.After a while?... They will make you think you are a genius. So... Why should I cause you to grow more confident into such a world of delusion?
It would be a disservice...

MA2444 said: I think all you evil spirits here to disrupt and distract from the truth have shot yourself in the foot in this thread.

MA2444 said: evil spirits say, rapture doctrine is wrong

MA2444 said: we wrestle not with flesh and blood people. But with principalities and powers and evil spirits. So it aint even his fault, it is the evil spirits which are oppressing him into being like he is.

MA2444 said: We're not arguing with you post trib people, but with the spirits behind you.

rebuilder said: You rode that beast/doctrine that carried you into the desert and I slew it. Now you are a foot. Time to get with it. Get that Bible out and enjoy the ride. Be free and agree with Jesus and His Holy Book.

MA2444 said:Get thee behind me satan.

MA2444 said:by misrepresenting God's Holy Word, they are playing out the ministry of satan.

MA2444 said: We would be better off talking to cult members than these nasties

MA2444 said: My prayers for you, you get to be present on the earth during the tribulations and wrath sent down from heaven AS you contend is your hearts desire… I’ll be with Christ’s Church, not looking down, not thinking of you… Stop your whining…I am happy for you, and hope you live long enough to get to enjoy Gods tribulations and wrath to be sent down from heaven.

You are just as obstinate and wicked as the ancient Pharisees.

Taken said: The Saved IN Christ Suffer Tribulations during their lifetime from people like you… OF this World…hounding, name calling, gaslighting, falsely Accusing…

Taken said:
Wrath upon the Earth is A different Event… for Living People ON The Earth, like you who Reject The Lord Claiming His Church, Bride… And Fail to Testify regarding Salvation… And by your Works…no reason for me to believe… the Rapture applies to You… and Definitely… why it is Not for you to Spiritually understand.

Taken said: He rejects the Truth…and desperately tries to Suck The Righteous into his own mystery of ignorance and denial.

Taken said: The Lord God Shall Judge you…

Taken said: Nothing by your fruits indicate you HAVE Salvation.

MA2444 said: All that egg on his face and his remedy is to smear more on it.

MA2444 said: You are sitting there with so much egg on your face you can not see that your house is on fire, but you turn to your air purifier for a ridiculous remedy.

MA2444 said: you have no heart.

MA2444 said: I don’t have a one-liner toddler version for you.

MA2444 said: I'm pretty sure his nickname is Christmas as he is slow as Christmas

MA2444 said: You are Kukoo.

MA2444 said: There's that 60 IQ shining through for you.

MA2444 said: you have the comprehension of a 60 IQ man

MA2444 said: Gossip on Mamm...Have you been staying home with the ladies too much or what?

MA2444 said:
Dont debate like a woman. If you (continue) to not offer a correction to the truth makes it seem like you debate like a woman.

MA2444 said:
No offense brother, but you talk like a woman.

MA2444 said:
You posting scriptures that dont even match what you're saying and then getting frustrated and popping off....is exactly how women talk

MA2444 said:
You could challenge it to me Wilma but I guess you aint that bright?

But oh no you dont want to discuss any doctrine all you want to do is to sling insults. Just like a Wilma.

MA2444 said:
Wilma, you almost sound scripted sometimes, you know that?

MA2444 said:
Oh grow a pair this is how men talk. You want to play a vicitim card for him because what I said? Maaaann, brother you hang out with the women too much or something.

MA2444 said:
I've been trying for days to get your wife to turn to the book of Daniel and she refuses.

Then you weirdos say they have no scripture...

MA2444 said:
Every post of yours is now trashy ghetto juvenile nothing-ness.

As you demonstrate manfully.. ...

MA2444 said:
When you get push back ,you go to default trigger mode and show us your ghetto talk.

MA2444 said:
SI has gone total ghetto mode. It is comical imagining him at a podium and cussing and screaming when someone challenges his error. " OK ladies and gentlemen, we will go to a commercial, as we sort this out" ...all the time he is screaming in the background... ...

Taken said:
Easy to see why God Himself said the Carnal Mind is against Him…the same holds true of men against men! Pity on you.

Taken said:
Matt 13:[14] And in them is fulfilled the prophecy of Esaias, which saith, By hearing ye shall hear, and shall not understand; and seeing ye shall see, and shall not perceive:

It is beyond your comprehension BECAUSE it is “EASIER” to simply maintain your stubbornness and REJECT, rather than to “DISCOVER” the meaning of Jesus’ teaching, and HOW TO, understand the meaning of Jesus’ teaching.It’s not rocket-science.

The Light said:Well, what was your career? I know it was nothing technical. I know it was nothing in mathematics. I think most likely just manual labor. Small chance of sales but it would be at a shoe store or target, Best Buy of the like. Not likely you would sell anything like air conditioners or such things.

The Light said: From your responses I can tell you are retired or without a job, and you when you did work it was likely a manual labor position.

Here are those attackers:

@GeneZx
@JimKnox
@MA2444
@Taken
@rebuilder 454
@The Light

I get it that it is frustrating defending a doctrine when you have no clear biblical proof-texts. But, this is brutal rhetoric by any standard. And guess what? Such is the hate, there is not one single apology coming from any of these posters! Where is the conviction of the Holy Spirit?

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

There isn't ONE verse..or even two or three...that says..."Jesus only comes back ONLY at the end of the tribulation".
Now, you can post a verse that says Jesus will come back at the end of the tribulation...but, it will not say Jesus only comes back once and only once at the end of the tribulation.

Over the last little while I've presented you with scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men that shows Jesus comes back in an even we call the rapture prior to the 7 year tribulation.

Nothing you have presented even comes close to supporting the idea of Jesus coming from heaven with the rapture occurring prior to a 7 year tribulation. You have no clear, straightforward scriptures you can use to support your view. Meanwhile, Matthew 24:29-31 and Mark 13:24-27 are quite clear that the rapture (rapture = gathering of the elect, which are Christ's people) will occur AFTER the tribulation.

If you don't want to believe the scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men...then so be it.

Grow up. Everyone here wants to believe the Word of God, but we obviously don't all agree on how it should be interpreted. It's childish and foolish to accuse someone here of not wanting to believe what the scriptures in the Word of God teach.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

In and of itself...nothing. It's just one more of the MANY dots to connect.

It's like proving that Jesus is God doesn't in and of itself prove the biblical fact of the Trinity.

Why does your doctrine require connecting so many dots? The truth is not nearly as complicated as you make it out to be. What is hard to understand about the following....

Mark 13:24 “But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light; 25 the stars of heaven will fall, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. 26 Then they will see the Son of Man coming in the clouds with great power and glory. 27 And then He will send His angels, and gather together His elect from the four winds, from the farthest part of earth to the farthest part of heaven.

The elect refer to those who are in the church (Romans 8:31-34). This is obviously the same gathering associated with Christ's future coming as 1 Thessalonians 4:14-17 and it explicitly says it will occur "after that tribulation". Very simple. No wonder pre-trib has to try to connect so many dots. That's the only way you can try to refute the truth that can be shown with just a few connected dots.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

I get it that it is frustrating defending a doctrine when you have no clear biblical proof-texts. But there is particular viciousness with engaging with most Pretribs online. There are a few exceptions like Dougg and William Barton. To engage with Pretribbers can be brutal. There is little Christian interaction. So sad! Here is how they engage with Posttribs:



































































































Here are those attackers:

@GeneZx
@JimKnox
@MA2444
@Taken
@rebuilder 454
@The Light

And guess what? Not one single apology from one of you!

All of them are hypocritical because they accuse us of the very things they do repeatedly with their nasty comments. They are the ones who initiate those types of comments when they are unable to refute the truth that we present using scripture and they become frustrated about it.

 

[Spiritual Israelite]

Where is the "Church" mentioned here? Revelation 4:1-2 is describing John being caught up in the Spirit 2000 years to receive the unveiling. This is therefore historic, not future.

This is the kind of thing they have to resort to in order to support their wild pre-trib theory because they have nothing else. John representing the entire church? Total nonsense. He was being given a vision of things that would happen from then on. What happened to him had nothing to do with the rapture whatsoever and there's no indication of that in the text whatsoever. But, pre-tribs have no clear, straightforward scriptures to support their view, so they resort to making verses like Revelation 4:1-2 mean something entirely different than what is intended.

 

[WPM]

Why would John have to have written about a pre-trib rapture in Revelation to make it true or not true?

But just for fun...

Revelation 4:1... "After these things I looked, and behold, a door standing open in heaven. And the first voice which I heard was like a trumpet speaking with me, saying, 'Come up here, and I will show you things which must take place after this.'"

Considering you believe all of Revelation is pure symbolism....and you've cracked the code....the symbolism of "come up here" has been described to me by people like you as a "type" or shadow of the church being "caught up" just before chapter 6 unfolds.

You throw limp arguments on the table and then run, knowing that they are untenable. I actually thought this one was actually abandoned by Pretribs and then you regurgitate it.

Revelation 4:1-2 has absolutely nothing to do with a secret rapture. In fact, note what it actually says and how it compares to similarly worded passages in Revelation. Remember, the safest way to understand Scripture is to compare Scripture with Scripture.

Revelation 4:1-2 commences, “After this (speaking of his supernatural encounter with Christ on Patmos) I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.”

There is no allusion here of the Lord descending in the clouds from heaven, there is no mention of the Church, we don’t see the saints rising to meet Him, there is no mention of the dead in Christ being resurrected and those who are alive and remain being caught up, there is no meeting Jesus in the air. It is all an elaborate hoax formulated by men which enjoys no biblical basis for their doctrine.

Nowhere in this chapter do we find any description of, or allusion to, the rapture of the saints. Rather, in contrast, it is a record of the catching away of John “in the Spirit” (4:2) to receive further revelation. In fact, chapters 4 & 5 in their totality outline a detailed description, by John, of the heavenly court and the One who sits upon the throne. Moreover, nowhere in this chapter is there even the slightest allusion to the second coming of the Lord Jesus Christ or the Church of Jesus Christ – generally.

(1) Who was this command addressed to?
(2) When did, or will, this event occur?
(3) What was it specifically speaking of?

(1) John
(2) It occurred 2,000 years ago
(3) John being caught up “in the spirit” into “heaven” to receive a supernatural revelation of things to come “hereafter.”

In this reading, the Lord simply commands John to “Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.” The revelation that he would now receive would thus relate to events from this time (2,000 years ago) forth. The same idea and similar wording is found in two other passages in this apocalyptic book, after he had been caught up.

 

[WPM]

This is the kind of thing they have to resort to in order to support their wild pre-trib theory because they have nothing else. John representing the entire church? Total nonsense. He was being given a vision of things that would happen from then on. What happened to him had nothing to do with the rapture whatsoever and there's no indication of that in the text whatsoever. But, pre-tribs have no clear, straightforward scriptures to support their view, so they resort to making verses like Revelation 4:1-2 mean something entirely different than what is intended.

It is called projection. They are so vicious, cruel and brutish in their interactions. Notably: they all run for the hills when I expose their venom.

 

[WPM]

Here is another discussion i had a couple of years ago on another end-time forum. This is typical of Pretrib responses on this subject. They show how bereft Pretrib is of biblical support.

Can you show me one single proof-text to support your belief of a rapture of the Church, followed by 7 years tribulation (or any trib), followed by a third coming?

no Scripture explicitly states this succession.

Ok, then. I will make it easier for you. Let me take one of the crucial aspects of Pretrib out ("a third coming"), even though it is a key element of the Pretribulation paradigm. Please give us a rapture passage that shows a literal seven-year tribulation following it?

Biblewriter

No scripture puts these two events together in a single passage.

Do you want me to reduce this question to simply a rapture of the Church??? Then we can all agree with that. This doctrine is not in the sacred pages. Why not admit it? It is only to be found in the Left Behind novels.

Biblewriter replied:

When you claim a doctrine cannot be correct because its entirety is never presented in a single passage, you are denying the truth found in this explicitly stated scripture.

Iamlamad admits:

THERE IS NO ONE PROOF TEXT FOR ALL THE END TIMES SCENARIOS. Quit looking! We have to consider ALL end times texts.

He adds:

Do you FINALLY understand that we don't form doctrine from an isolated scripture, but by comparing ALL the end times scriptures.

He continues:

Do we NEED one clear scripture? We form doctrine from all scriptures. It is impossible (no matter how hard posttribbers try) to force all the events of two comings into one. This causes more problems than just leaving them as two separate comings as shown in scripture.

How many times must I remind you, we don't form doctrine from isolated texts: We take ALL texts to form a doctrine. It is the only way to have correct doctrine.

Why believe it then?

Pretribbers cannot show their doctrine in God's Book. They have no proof-texts. They are incapable of proving what they have been taught. That is why they get very defensive and offensive when challenged. That is why they get very personal when challenged. That is why they resort to ad hominem when challenged. That is why they run for the exits when their theory is exposed. Their rhetoric is all noise.

 

[WPM]

Can you show us evidence in Revelation that clearly describes (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by followed by 7 years tribulation (or any trib), (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ?

Jerry Kelso conceded:

Nobody has said there is a literal plain statement that says there is a pre-trib rapture in Revelation.

Iamlamad admits:

I told you: John never saw the rapture. It is not mentioned as a "rapture" in Revelation, nor did John write anything about a catching up of the church.

Where in Revelation is Paul's rapture? As I have said, John was not shown the rapture so did not write it.

The rapture (NOT shown in Revelation because John did not see it) in Revelation will come just before wrath, exactly as Paul has laid out. Where does wrath begin in Revelation?

He continues:

Just because John did not see it does not mean it did not happen! John saw a vision and in that vision saw EXACTLY what God wanted and chose to show Him. It most certainly does not mean the rapture is bogus.

He adds:

Paul was the only writer who received revelation of the rapture of the church. Therefore it is critical in forming end time doctrine for the church.

He continues:

Why people look for the rapture anywhere but in Paul's writings amaze me. We are to be judged by Paul's gospel and we will be caught up by Paul's rapture.

Why believe it then?

Pretribs are incapable of showing (1) a rapture of the Church, (2) immediately followed by followed by 7 years tribulation (or any trib), (3) immediately followed by a further coming of Christ in the book of Revelation. This whole theory is a man-made Jesuit invention that Pretribs are incapable of biblically proving. It should be rejected by all sound Bible students.

 

[WPM]

Please notice the highlighted blue.

Let us look 1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9. The text declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Contrary to what Pretribs impute into this text (namely that that Christ is only coming “for” His saints), this reading describes how Christ comes both “with” and “for” His people the next time. Verse 14 of our reading explicitly states, “them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.” Those living will be “caught up” to meet Jesus when He appears. This is the ultimate uniting of the elect on earth (the live in Christ) and those in heaven (the dead in Christ).

· Where is your seven-year tribulation in this passage?
· Where are your survivors?
· How can there even be a possibility of survivors in the light of the climactic and wholesale destruction here?

 

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Op Note

As you can see from Pretrib responses here and elsewhere: Pretrib is an extra-biblical man-made doctrine that enjoys zero support in Scripture. It cannot be supported by other Scripture. It should therefore be abandoned by all Bible-believing Christians. Pretribbers have no warrant for their theory. That is all it is - an extra-biblical theory. It cannot be supported by hard Scripture.

The stages when engaging with Pretribs are (1) avoidance (2) ad hominem and (3) run for the exit.

 

[WPM]

There isn't ONE verse..or even two or three...that says..."Jesus only comes back ONLY at the end of the tribulation".
Now, you can post a verse that says Jesus will come back at the end of the tribulation...but, it will not say Jesus only comes back once and only once at the end of the tribulation.

Over the last little while I've presented you with scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men that shows Jesus comes back in an even we call the rapture prior to the 7 year tribulation.


If you don't want to believe the scripture taken directly from the Word of God, written by Holy Spirit inspired men...then so be it.

I'm still waiting for you to show me supporting texts that Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse as per your opinion of Revelation 19?

1. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 2 Thessalonians 2:3? If you can't then you must retract.
2. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 1 Timothy 6:1? If you can't then you must retract.
3. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 2 Timothy 4:1? If you can't then you must retract.
4. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 2 Timothy 4:8? If you can't then you must retract.
5. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in Titus 2:13? If you can't then you must retract.
6. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in Hebrews 9:28? If you can't then you must retract.
7. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in James 5:7-9? If you can't then you must retract.
8. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 1 Peter 1:7? If you can't then you must retract.
9. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 1 Peter 5:4? If you can't then you must retract.
10. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming in 1 John 2:28-3:2? If you can't then you must retract.
11. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in Jude 21? If you can't then you must retract.
12. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in Revelation 2:25? If you can't then you must retract.
13. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in Revelation 3:10? If you can't then you must retract.

You have avoided these because you have zero support. To date I give you an F. Until you provide an answer my responses on this issue will be the same.

 

[sondring7]

I'm still waiting for you to show me supporting texts that Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse as per your opinion of Revelation 19?

1. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 2 Thessalonians 2:3? If you can't then you must retract.
2. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 1 Timothy 6:1? If you can't then you must retract.
3. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 2 Timothy 4:1? If you can't then you must retract.
4. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 2 Timothy 4:8? If you can't then you must retract.
5. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in Titus 2:13? If you can't then you must retract.
6. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in Hebrews 9:28? If you can't then you must retract.
7. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in James 5:7-9? If you can't then you must retract.
8. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 1 Peter 1:7? If you can't then you must retract.
9. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in 1 Peter 5:4? If you can't then you must retract.
10. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming in 1 John 2:28-3:2? If you can't then you must retract.
11. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in Jude 21? If you can't then you must retract.
12. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in Revelation 2:25? If you can't then you must retract.
13. Show me where Jesus is coming back in a 3rd coming with a white horse in Revelation 3:10? If you can't then you must retract.

You have avoided these because you have zero support. To date I give you an F. Until you provide an answer my responses on this issue will be the same.

Does Text teach that the 1 Thess 4.17 cloud gathering of live & dead believers is part of the same journey down to solid earth by Jesus ?

 

[WPM]

Does Text teach that the 1 Thess 4.17 cloud gathering of live & dead believers is part of the same journey down to solid earth by Jesus ?

God's elect are rescued before the conflagration. Christ then returns to a new regenerated earth with the glorified saints.

 

[sondring7]

God's elect are rescued before the conflagration. Christ then returns to a new regenerated earth with the glorified saints.

What are the actual verses that teach the 1 Thess 4.17 cloud gathering of live & dead believers is part of the same journey down to solid earth by Jesus ?

 

[WPM]

What are the actual verses that teach the 1 Thess 4.17 cloud gathering of live & dead believers is part of the same journey down to solid earth by Jesus ?

God's elect are rescued before the conflagration. Christ then returns to a new regenerated earth with the glorified saints.

1 Thessalonians 4:14-5:9 declares: “if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming [Gr. parousia] of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep. For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: Then we which are alive and remain ‘shall be caught up’ [Gr. harpazō] together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. Wherefore comfort one another with these words. But of the times and the seasons, brethren, ye have no need that I write unto you. For yourselves know perfectly that the day of the Lord so cometh as a thief in the night. For when they shall say, Peace and safety; then sudden destruction cometh upon them, as travail upon a woman with child; and they shall not escape. But ye, brethren, are not in darkness, that that day should overtake you as a thief. Ye are all the children of light, and the children of the day: we are not of the night, nor of darkness. Therefore let us not sleep, as do others; but let us watch and be sober. For they that sleep sleep in the night; and they that be drunken are drunken in the night. But let us, who are of the day, be sober, putting on the breastplate of faith and love; and for an helmet, the hope of salvation. For God hath not appointed us to wrath, but to obtain salvation by our Lord Jesus Christ.”

Please see here: “the coming of the Lord” and “the day of the Lord” are shown to refer to the same climactic day. This is the end! Jesus comes on the “day of the Lord” as a “thief in the night.” He rescues His people, but equally His appearing sees the “sudden” and total “destruction” of the wicked: “they shall not escape.” There is no suggestion of survivors. None are in the passage.

The Holy Spirit could hardly have made this clearer: “they shall not escape.” This totally negates the whole Pretrib and Premil paradigm of countless wicked mortals saturating the new earth.

If the day of the Lord here relates to a third coming, as most Pretribbers argue, and they relate this to the event of Revelation 19, then why is this describing the wicked, who are experiencing the 7 years tribulation, as declaring “Peace and safety”? Surely this is a period of the wrath of God being poured out on all those left behind according to Pretrib theology?