James 2 No such thing as faith without works

[gpresdo]

It's like you did not understand a word I said. You obviously just don't get it and there is a reason for that.

Ok it is your post...and your choice of what you wish to convey. But, remember we have scriptures to make us properly aware of.

 

[gpresdo]

"Faith without works is dead" does not mean that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith. That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit and then it becomes a living tree, and the fruit is the source of life in the tree. James is simply saying faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead. If someone merely says-claims he has faith, but lacks resulting evidential works, then he demonstrates that he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith. We are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith FIRST then UNTO good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

The opposite of dead is alive. In Ephesians 2:5, we read - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).... 8-9 by grace through faith, not works, 10 created in Christ Jesus unto/for good works. Christ is the source of life in our faith. Faith must be alive first before it can produce works. Just as a tree must be alive first before it can produce fruit. Life flows through faith (root of salvation) and produces works (fruit of salvation) just as life flows through the root of a tree and produces fruit.

In Matthew 7:17-20, Jesus said - Even so, every good tree bears good fruit, but a bad tree bears bad fruit. 18 A good tree cannot bear bad fruit, nor can a bad tree bear good fruit. 19 Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20 Therefore by their fruits you will know them. Genuine good works are not produced by unbelievers but only by those who are created in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Apart from Christ we can do nothing. (John 15:4-5)

You are trying your best to bend it.....Rev 20....we have gone over this before....

Revelation 20:11 Context​

.........8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The reason the Bible says...."faith without works is dead".....

 

[mailmandan]

You are trying your best to bend it.....Rev 20....we have gone over this before....

Revelation 20:11 Context​

.........8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea. 9And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them. 10And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever. 11And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them. 12And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works. 13And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works. 14And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

The reason the Bible says...."faith without works is dead".....

I already explained the reason why the Bible says... "faith without works is dead" to you in post #17 but you still don't get it. In regard to Revelation 20:11, notice the dead were judged according to what they had done as recorded in the books. The sea gave up the dead that were in it, and death and Hades gave up the dead that were in them, and each person was judged according to what they had done. Then death and Hades were thrown into the lake of fire. The lake of fire is the second death. Anyone whose name was not found written in the book of life was thrown into the lake of fire.

These are not believers at the judgment seat of Christ whose works are tested by fire to determine rewards or loss of rewards based on their works (1 Corinthians 3:11-15) but unbelievers at the great white throne judgment being judged by their works with the outcome of being cast into the lake of fire. Degrees of punishment are implied. Example. Matthew 23:14 - Woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites! For you devour widows’ houses, and for a pretense make long prayers. Therefore, you will receive greater condemnation. We see where "judged by their works" got them. Now you need to read James chapter 2 in context.

 

[Ghada]

"Faith without works is dead" does not mean

Yes it does.

that faith is dead until it produces works and then it becomes a living faith or that works are the source of life in faith.

Now you've got it.

In my gospel works produce spiritual fruit. (2 Peter 1) Until we add works to our faith, we remain barren and fruitless, and only with doing those works, can we ensure our salvation of never falling unto the end.

James 1&2 simply show how the faith sown in any man's heart by hearing only saves no man. Otherwise all who ever hear are immediately saved by faith sown alone. Some Christians preach all who have ever heard are eternally saved.

However, hearers only not doing the word have a dead faith by hearing only and useless to save the soul by God.

Spiritual seed is not natural seed. There is no 'gestation' time of the seed 'sown alone', only to take root and bear fruit 'later'. It's immediate by doing it now, or Satan immediately takes it away. The Spiritual root and fruit of the spiritual seed is immediate by obedience to the faith sown. And this is only by immediately whole repentance of heart from sinning.

The good ground is not made good by the seed sown. The good ground is the repented heart, that the seed sown bears fruit at once, or not at all.

The Christian gospel of being saved by 'gestating' faith alone is the natural man's Christian gospel only. It's preaching salvation by hearing only.

James is telling us all that just having the common faith of hearing only, does nothing to save us without doing the word, which of course begins with repenting of sinning in the first place.

That would be like saying that a tree is dead until it produces fruit

This has no relation to the topic. James 2 is saying there is no seed, root, nor tree without fruit, that God justifies.

The dead branches are only from those that did the word, but did not endure abide in doing the word for several reasons spoken of by Jesus.

James is simply saying

That faith without works is dead, being alone, and can save no man. Trying quoting the verse side by side with faith alone without works can save a man.

 

[Ghada]

faith that is not accompanied by evidential works demonstrates that it's dead.

Once again this is your natural mind at work. All you see as a natural man is outward works, so that they are the only works man does. You don't discern the spiritual works of the Bible, that says our very thoughts, intents, and imaginations are works we do judged by God.

Lusting is judged as committing the act. Evil surmising is listed among the unrighteous works of the flesh.

The very first works we do by faith in Jesus through His Spirit, is to sanctify our hearts from lusting with the world. These are the first works we do when obeying the word by repentance from lusting and sinning.

That's why Jesus says to cleanse within the platter first, that our outer works may also be clean.

If someone merely says-claims he has faith, but lacks resulting evidential works,

James 2 speaks having and saying we have faith. It's an effort at a distinction with a difference. The bottom line is that any one having any faith, that is without the good works of God inwardly and outwardly, cannot save nor justified us.

And evidential works are within first. These are the first works the natural Christian does not do to guard our hearts against lusting with the devil. Paul speaks of it as the spiritual warfare we fight for our soul's sake IN 2 Cor 10.

then he demonstrates that he has an empty profession of faith/dead faith (James 2:14) and not authentic faith.

Ok, we'll call it empty profession vs authentic faith, if you like. Any man's faith and claim of faith, that stand alone and is not part of his works, is dead and empty.

Like that of the heaven and earth in Gen 1:2. A man having faith without works is without form and void. The Spirit of God is moving over the dark hearts looking for doers, not just hearers only. He's commanding His light to shine.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Look at it this way. Faith is the light in the heart by hearing alone. Works are the shining. Without the shining, no light to save and walk in.

But if thine eye be evil, thy whole body shall be full of darkness. If therefore the light that is in thee be darkness, how great is that darkness!

The evil eye is anyone having faith and not doing the word. Which of course the spiritual man knows includes the spiritual workings of lusting or resisting the devil's thoughts to sin. That's the spiritual warfare we must all fight to continue pure of heart in the faith of Jesus always pleasing God, and walking as He walked on earth.

We are made alive together with Christ by grace through faith FIRST then UNTO good works. (Ephesians 2:5-10)

That's your gospel that you add your words to, which is fine to clarify your doctrine. I also add words to preach my gospel.

Repent ye first, and then believe the gospel unto salvation.

But I only do such things based on other verses that need no clarifying.

For godly sorrow worketh repentance to salvation not to be repented of:

For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation.

The opposite of dead is alive. In Ephesians 2:5, we read - even when we were dead in trespasses, made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved).... 8-9 by grace through faith, not works,

Good quote. Before repenting of sinning and beleiving the gospel unto salvation, we all were dead in our sinning for all have sinned.

Faith must be alive first before it can produce works.

Faith is never alive without producing works. There is no 'gestation' temporal timeline with the faith of Jesus. He's never not pleasing the Father, and so neither is His faith ever not producing good works and fruits of the Spirit.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

Notice how the Father leaves those not doing His good pleasure. God has no patience nor time for idealizations about our faith, while sinning against Him.

Life flows through faith (root of salvation) and produces works (fruit of salvation) just as life flows through the root of a tree and produces fruit.

True. Immediately. No root with fruit. Dead faith. No 'incubating' time for Christ, Who is the promised seed of God. He's not hanging out buried in someone's dark heart of lust, until they get around to repenting. Jesus isn't locked in our sinful home, waiting for us to turn the lights on after opening the door to Him.

Repenting of sinning first is opening the door, and has the light shining throughout the house.

The light of the body is the eye: if therefore thine eye be single, thy whole body shall be full of light.

Genuine good works are not produced by unbelievers but only by those who are created in Christ Jesus. (Ephesians 2:8-10) Apart from Christ we can do nothing. (John 15:4-5)

Exactly. Good preaching. Anyone not doing good is not born of God, because His seed is not in him. Those having His seed by hearing only without obeying Him, have it taken away immediately by the devil.

All they have is an echo of faith with knowledge only, that some say saves and justifies them, while still lusting and sinning against God.

Once we repent of sinning itself, it all becomes very clear about all new beginning and walking with Jesus.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God, who hath reconciled us to himself by Jesus Christ, and hath given to us the ministry of reconciliation;

But God forbid that I should glory, save in the cross of our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom the world is crucified unto me, and I unto the world.

For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision availeth any thing, nor uncircumcision, but a new creature. And as many as walk according to this rule, peace be on them, and mercy, and upon the Israel of God.

 

[Ghada]

For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God: not of works, lest any man should boast. Eph. 2:8-9
Befire we are born again, all our righteous is like dirty rags. Our works to appease God all fail. It isn't until we are saved, that Jesus ( who fulfilled the requirements of the Law for us) imputes His righteousness to us, then we begin to demonstrate good works. The works are not what saved us. The Holy Spirit prepares works for us to do after we are saved AND it is The Holy Spirit Who works through us. This is what James was referring to, evidence that you have been saved results in good works.
Justification by faith affirms that good works necessarily follow from faith. The doctrine of justification by faith excludes our works of obedience to the law as a means or cause of our justification before God.

No problem. Since doing good is evidence of being saved, then doing evil is evidence of not being saved. I'll take it.

Unless of course you're teaching being saved forever by your own faith alone, that has nothing to do with what you are doing at any time. Then I'll reject it.

 

[gpresdo]

It's like you did not understand a word I said. You obviously just don't get it and there is a reason for that.

Guilty.....I only follow the Bible...not a unsupported opinion.

 

[mailmandan]

Guilty.....I only follow the Bible...not a unsupported opinion.

You are not fooling me.

 

[mailmandan]

Yes it does.

Now you've got it.

In my gospel works produce spiritual fruit. (2 Peter 1) Until we add works to our faith, we remain barren and fruitless, and only with doing those works, can we ensure our salvation of never falling unto the end.

James 1&2 simply show how the faith sown in any man's heart by hearing only saves no man. Otherwise all who ever hear are immediately saved by faith sown alone. Some Christians preach all who have ever heard are eternally saved.

However, hearers only not doing the word have a dead faith by hearing only and useless to save the soul by God.

Spiritual seed is not natural seed. There is no 'gestation' time of the seed 'sown alone', only to take root and bear fruit 'later'. It's immediate by doing it now, or Satan immediately takes it away. The Spiritual root and fruit of the spiritual seed is immediate by obedience to the faith sown. And this is only by immediately whole repentance of heart from sinning.

The good ground is not made good by the seed sown. The good ground is the repented heart, that the seed sown bears fruit at once, or not at all.

The Christian gospel of being saved by 'gestating' faith alone is the natural man's Christian gospel only. It's preaching salvation by hearing only.

James is telling us all that just having the common faith of hearing only, does nothing to save us without doing the word, which of course begins with repenting of sinning in the first place.

This has no relation to the topic. James 2 is saying there is no seed, root, nor tree without fruit, that God justifies.

The dead branches are only from those that did the word, but did not endure abide in doing the word for several reasons spoken of by Jesus.

That faith without works is dead, being alone, and can save no man. Trying quoting the verse side by side with faith alone without works can save a man.

You just don't get it. The Christian gospel of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ "alone" (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1 Ephesians 2:8,9) is not to be confused with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9); yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24) You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

It is through faith "in Christ alone" (and not based on the merits of our works) that we are justified on account of Christ (Romans 3:24-28; 5:1; 5:9); yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine. (James 2:14-24) *Perfect Harmony*

This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT.

Once again this is your natural mind at work.

Oh, the irony. (1 Corinthians 2:14)

 

[mailmandan]

Unless of course you're teaching being saved forever by your own faith alone, that has nothing to do with what you are doing at any time. Then I'll reject it.

Your anti-faith alone crusade equates to Christ alone (Who is the object of our faith in receiving salvation) is IN-sufficient to save believers and that we must "add" our works to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us. Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost. Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers. No supplements needed. (Romans 3:24-28) Stop confusing "faith in Christ alone" for salvation (Romans 4:5-6) with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14) ALL false religions and cults get this wrong.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

No problem. Since doing good is evidence of being saved, then doing evil is evidence of not being saved. I'll take it.

Unless of course you're teaching being saved forever by your own faith alone, that has nothing to do with what you are doing at any time. Then I'll reject it.

Both saved and unsaved people sin. Once you are saved it doesn't mean you automatically turn into a pure Saint with nothing but love flowing out of you. Then all Christians would be like Billy Graham or Mother Teresa. We aren't, so sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between the two. But " By their fruit you will know them" is a good enough gage. To know someone's heart, we really need to be around them a lot. People lived next door to serial killers and thought they were nice, decent men, family men, responsible, friendly. Wow. People are married and don't really know their spouses who later, after what seemed to be a happy life, turned on them and murder them.

 

[gpresdo]

Both saved and unsaved people sin. Once you are saved it doesn't mean you automatically turn into a pure Saint with nothing but love flowing out of you. Then all Christians would be like Billy Graham or Mother Teresa. We aren't, so sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between the two. But " By their fruit you will know them" is a good enough gage. To know someone's heart, we really need to be around them a lot. People lived next door to serial killers and thought they were nice, decent men, family men, responsible, friendly. Wow. People are married and don't really know their spouses who later, after what seemed to be a happy life, turned on them and murder them.i

You are basically correct. There is a difference in intention though.
A born again Christian may sin but, it is an unintentional sin ...a slip-up if you will...where he will immediately seek forgiveness.
The un-repented sinner just sins without concern with his righteous standing.

 

[Ronald David Bruno]

You are basically correct. There is a difference in intention though.
A born again Christian may sin but, it is an unintentional sin ...a slip-up if you will...where he will immediately seek forgiveness.
The un-repented sinner just sins without concern with his righteous standing.

Yeah, it's about being aware of sin.

 

[Ghada]

You just don't get it. The Christian gospel of salvation by faith in Jesus Christ "alone" (Romans 4:5-6; 5:1 Ephesians 2:8,9)

You try to portray your gospel of being saved by your own faith alone, as being the Bible gospel of having faith only in Jesus. It's not.

an empty profession of faith/dead faith that remains "alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14-24)

Which is your gospel of being saved and justified by your own faith alone, without any works having part.

That's not having faith in Jesus and His words only, but is having faith in ourselves and our own doctrine only.

Man is saved through faith and not by works (Romans 4:5-6; Ephesians 2:8,9; Titus 3:5; 2 Timothy 1:9);

Not by works of our own righteousness. We are only justified by the works we do through Christ to do His righteousness.

I reject your gospel of being saved by faith alone without any works to justify us.

yet genuine faith is (evidenced) by works. (James 2:14-24) You have the tail wagging the dog. The cart before the horse.

And justifies the believer with God.

Christ saves us through faith based on the merits of His finished work of redemption "alone" and not based on the merits of our works.

Christ cleanses us through His blood. He saves us through His faith. He justifies us through pure works we do through Him accordingly.

It is through faith "in Christ alone"

True. Which is not your gospel of being saved by your own faith alone.

yet the faith that justifies does not remain alone (unfruitful, barren) if it is genuine.

Never alone.

The after-the fact Christian gospel of repentance with works later, never repents to cease from sinning commanded first by the Bible gospel of Jesus Christ.

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

The commandment of God to repent is not to believers, but is for all men unbelievers everywhere to repent, (Acts 17) that we may believe the gospel with a pure heart unto righteousness of God.

The Christian doctrine of God commanding only believers to repent, after the fact, is not the Bible.

God doesn't command His people walking with His Son to repent, since they already have in order to walk with His Son.

The Christian gospel of being commanded to repent after believing Him, is not the Bible.

Believing unto repenting to sin less, is not the faith of Jesus recieved by repenting of sinning first.

Jesus does not enter to sup with any unrepentant sinner. Repenting of sinning opens the door to Jesus Christ.

Unrepentant sinners are by definition unbelievers, that have not yet repented to believe His gospel.

(

This is not hard to understand. It's just hard for you to ACCEPT.

Not at all. It's quite easy to reject your gospel for unrepented sinful Christians. I do it all the time.

 

[Behold]

That is why some Christians trying to escape God's judgment of their works with their faith, are trying to teach a saving faith without works,

God does not accept the works of a sinner, nor a saved one... to accept us and give us the New Birth.

"Not by, or according to WORKS of righteousness , but according to God's GRACE/MERCY, He SAVED Us"..

And this GRACE, by which the BELIEVER is accepted by GOD, is the CROSS of Christ.

God accepts nothing but the Cross of Christ, as the basis for accepting Us.

Now, there are those who dont understand Salvation, who will read that Jesus says..."im the only way to the Father".. and they will ignore that verse and instead teach what their CULT teaches,,..... that is always...

Saved by Water
Saved by Works

Saved by SELF EFFORT
Saved by Repenting.
Saved by Commandment keeping.


So, when we deal with this type of Cross denier, then we take note of who they are, and we recognize they are This ONE :

Luke 11:35

= A Dark Light.

And we do not listen to their Cross Rejecting, "Gospel of Works".. ."Gospel of Self saving".... and that is because these people are this...

Galatians 1:8

 

[Ghada]

Your anti-faith alone crusade

It's your crusade that preaches faith alone. It's my response to show it's anti-Bible dead faith alone.

I am a glad heretic against your gospel of faith alone. But it's not a crusade of mine, but only my response to yours.

And he that sent me is with me: the Father hath not left me alone; for I do always those things that please him.

We are only justified by works that please God, which is only pleasing to Him through the faith of Jesus Christ alone.

This is the Bible gospel of repenting and believing in Jesus Christ alone.

Your gospel of not repenting and instead believing unto salvation by your own faith alone, is not the Bible gospel I preach.

equates to Christ alone (Who is the object of our faith in receiving salvation)

Dead faith alone without works pleasing to God, is not having faith in Christ alone.

Your crusade to make it so, notwithstanding.

is IN-sufficient to save believers and that we must "add" our works to Christ's finished work of redemption in order to help Christ save us.

We must add works to our faith to produce pleasing fruit of the Spirit to God, and ensure our salvation without falling unto the end.

Your gospel of being saved by your own faith alone is not the gospel of 2 Peter 1 and James 2.

Your efforts to morph it into faith in Jesus alone, not withstanding.

For rebellion is as the sin of witchcraft,

Unrepented sinners are still in rebellion to the commandment of God for all unbelievers everywhere to repent. (Acts 17)

The Christian gospel of God commanding saved believers to repent, is not the Bible. Afterall, no unrepented sinner can even be a believer in God, much less saved by the faith of Jesus, that is only recieved by repenting first.

Either we are trusting 100% in Jesus Christ as the ALL-sufficient means of our salvation or else we are 100% lost.

True. And those not trusting in His all-sufficient means to walk with Him and please God always as Him, is of course not trusting in Jesus Christ, but in another gospel of one's own faith alone without pleasing God by works.

Believers loving God from the heart, now only do works to please God. It is therefore impossible to be justified by God without pleasing Him by works done pleasing to Him.

This is the gospel of James 2, where after doing the work pleasing to God, He can then call us a Friend of His, and no more a sinning enemy of the world. (James 4)

Christ's finished work of redemption is sufficient and complete to save believers.

True. To saved unbelievers, that repent of sinning to come to Him by faith.

No supplements needed.

In your gospel no. 2 Peter 1 and James 2 are neither needed nor desired by you.

Nor is Matthew 23:

Thou blind Pharisee, cleanse first that which is within the cup and platter, that the outside of them may be clean also.

Neither is 2 Cor 7:

Having therefore these promises, dearly beloved, let us cleanse ourselves from all filthiness of the flesh and spirit, perfecting holiness in the fear of God.

The Christian gospel of sinning less outwardly, while never purified through obedience to God, is not the Bible. It's a doctrine for being less righteous Pharisees in outward works, rather than more righteous than the Pharisees by inward purity of soul and heart.

Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

Such added works and supplements of faith, are rejected by the saved by faith alone gospel, without any such works and supplements added to their own faith alone.

Such Christians do not believe in repenting first, nor in repenting to cease from sinning, nor in obeying the word to cleanse themselves within.

with an empty profession of faith/dead faith that "remains alone" - barren of works. (James 2:14) ALL false religions and cults get this wrong.

True. The Christian one too, that remains barren of good works and fruit, by not repenting first of sinful works and fruit of unrighteousness.

All men's good deeds of our own are filthy rags to God, until we first repent of all sinning against God.

Any religion producing both good and evil fruits, whether more or less than before, is not the pure religion of Christ Jesus with His people being born without spot as He was born from the womb of Mary. And walking without spot as He walked from His youth up.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

The Christian gospel of being saved by faith alone without repenting first, preaches having their filthy rags, while keeping their sinning, before, during, and after their Christian religion conversion.

 

[Ghada]

God does not accept the works of a sinner,

True. Only repentance from sinful works.

nor a saved one...

No such thing in the Bible gospel. They are only in certain Christian gospels for sinners that have never repented of sinning, and are still sinning through their religious conversion. Some do at least preach not sinning as much as before. Some don't.

The Bible gospel preaches not sinning at all as before. All the old life is past by repentance, and all things are now made new and all of God by His Spirit.

to accept us and give us the New Birth.

The new birth while still a sinner sinning, is not that of the Bible. It's the Christian religious restart and reboot to become as a new sinner only. But now only hopefully less.

"Not by, or according to WORKS of righteousness , but according to God's GRACE/MERCY, He SAVED Us"..

Correct. Those yet repented of sinning and converted to Christian religion of sinning less, are still doing works of their own righteousness as before, only now more or less.

All our works are still as filthy rags, if we have not repented of all our sinning.

Unrepented Christian salvation preaches continued filthy rags as before, but only more of them, while still sinning. Hopefully less.

And this GRACE, by which the BELIEVER is accepted by GOD, is the CROSS of Christ.

The cross Jesus died on was not called grace. I don't think anyone even named it. I know Jesus and His apostles didn't.

This stuff you got is just bandying words together to sound good, but instead sounds like doctrinal amateur hour.

God accepts nothing but the Cross of Christ, as the basis for accepting Us.

God does not accept the cross Jesus died on. It's decomposed in the ground along with all other dead wood on earth.

Your idolizing of a wooden cross itself, is Christian idolatry. You teach worshipping an idol of wood, when we ought be repenting of sinning and taking up our own cross as Jesus did.

God's accepted Jesus' death on a cross, as payment for sins. He accepts our cross we crucify our old life of sin, without having to pay for our past sinning with the death of our body.

Now, there are those who dont understand Salvation, who will read that Jesus says..."im the only way to the Father".. and they will ignore that verse and instead teach what their CULT teaches,,..... that is always...

I reject your gospel not found in the Bible. My Bible never says, "I'm the only way to the Father".

My Bible I teach says Jesus is the way, the truth, and the life, and no man comes to the Father but by Him.

That only way to come to the Father is by repentance from sinning unto being holy in manner of conversation as He.

Your way of coming without repentance and by worshipping a cross of wood, is not The Holy and Righteous Way of Jesus Christ, nor is it doing and obeying The Truth of His word and gospel.

Your gospel is not teaching faith in the way of Jesus to God, to be holy as He is holy, but instead you are teaching an idolatrous faith in a cross of wood, that the man Jesus died on.

Your gospel trust is in that wooden cross to save you from judgment for sinning, not in Jesus Christ to save you from sinning.

The solution is really quite simple, just repent of sinning and then believe in Jesus' gospel, not in a cross of wood He died on.

And saying, The time is fulfilled, and the kingdom of God is at hand: repent ye, and believe the gospel.

I tell you, Nay: but, except ye repent, ye shall all likewise perish.

Saved by Water

Water of the word washing them that repent, yes.

Saved by Works

Done through Christ Jesus to please the Father always, yes.

Saved by SELF EFFORT

No. That's your gospel of saving yourself by your own faith alone, while idolizing old wood dead and gone back to the earth.

Saved by Repenting.

By repenting and believing Jesus unto His righteousness, yes.

Saved by Commandment keeping.

By repenting first and keeping Jesus' faith and commandments, yes.

Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.

Your gospel of wooden cross worship only, is not that of the Bible.

So, when we deal with this type of Cross denier, then we take note of who they are, and we recognize they are This ONE :

I now see that you are correct. I am a complete denier of your wooden idol. Do you have an idol cross made for yourself in your own home, that you bow down to also?

I mean, it's not wrong to have a wooden cross at home, no more than a Christmas tree. So long as we aren't worshipping them.

Luke 11:35

= A Dark Light.

And we do not listen to their Cross Rejecting, "Gospel of Works"..

Mine by always doing those works pleasing to God.

."Gospel of Self saving"...

Yours by your own dead faith and cross alone.

This whole thread is about denying a wooden cross made into a saving idol alone, that is long since decayed into the earth.

I am one such denier. Gladly, fervently. A global warming denier too.

 

[Behold]

I reject your gospel not found in the Bible. My Bible never says, "I'm the only way to the Father".

Jesus said that in :

John 14:6

You should read it.

 

[Ghada]

Both saved and unsaved people sin.

Yes you do. Not just if, but only a matter of when. It's the Christian religion you preach, teach, believe, and do.

Once you are saved it doesn't mean you automatically turn into a pure Saint with nothing but love flowing out of you.

That's only because you do not not believe in the newborn conversion of Jesus Christ by repenting of sinning and beleiving in Him unto His righteousness.

Therefore if any man be in Christ, he is a new creature: old things are passed away; behold, all things are become new. And all things are of God.

Your gospel does not acknowledge believing from the heart unto doing God's righteousness, but by unbelief preaches that is impossible to be born into and to do.

As ye have therefore received Christ Jesus the Lord, so walk ye in him:

No unrepentant sinner has recieved the righteous and pure Bible Christ, which is why no unrepented sinner is so walking in Him with a pure heart and blameless life.

Then all Christians would be like Billy Graham or Mother Teresa.

No, all naming the name of Christ would depart from all iniquity, and be like Jesus.

Once again, your Christian religion idolizes people, rather than walking with Jesus as He walked.

Some Christians also idolizes the life of the man Jesus, as being only that of a lofty ideal, but certainly not a life anyone else can live. It's like The Buddha for Buddhists.

We aren't, so sometimes it is difficult to distinguish between the two. But " By their fruit you will know them" is a good enough gage.

Once again. The commandment of Jesus to make the whole tree good with all good fruit, is taught by some Christians as just a 'gage' more or less, that all will certainly fail in. Though some do sin less than before.

To know someone's heart, we really need to be around them a lot.

No we don't. I know the heart of thief, when I see him thieving. Same with murderers, rapists...

This Christian pseudo-judgment is unreal and only a lofty ideal of 'not judging', because they don't want to be judged for doing the same things.

And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

People lived next door to serial killers and thought they were nice, decent men, family men, responsible, friendly. Wow. People are married and don't really know their spouses who later, after what seemed to be a happy life, turned on them and murder them.

Good human history and psychology. Good for humans, nor for God and His people.

Jesus knows and judges our hearts as works of unrighteousness, before doing it, or even without doing it outwardly.

But I say unto you, That whosoever looketh on a woman to lust after her hath committed adultery with her already in his heart.

It's not man's judgement we should fear, but God's alone.

But as he which hath called you is holy, so be ye holy in all manner of conversation; Because it is written, Be ye holy; for I am holy.

And if ye call on the Father, who without respect of persons judgeth according to every man's work, pass the time of your sojourning here in fear:

I don't particularly care what some Christians teach about judgement, since it's not the righteous judgement of Jesus in the Bible.

Judge not according to the appearance, but judge righteous judgment.

I do judge that you have your Christian religion by your own faith alone. By not believing some of the words of the Bible, and even teaching against them as impossible, then I know your gospel you live by is not that of the Bible. For starters you begin in your Christian conversion completely different from that of the Bible.

I'm sure it's a fine Christianity you have, and you enjoy it as much as possible, while providing for your own, doing honest work, and being neighborly. It's just not the pure religion of the Bible that endures beyond the grave.

Pure religion and undefiled before God and the Father is this, To visit the fatherless and widows in their affliction, and to keep himself unspotted from the world.

 

[Behold]

Your gospel trust is in that wooden cross to save you from judgment for sinning, not in Jesus Christ to save you from sinning.

We are not saved from "sinning"
WE are saved from the Judgement that is on the sinner, because of their sin.

The sinner, who trusts in Christ is saved from HELL, as Hell is the judgement that starts the eternal life of this one.

John 3:36

See, its not SIN that damns you.
its not being FORGIVEN, that is the damnation.
Its "dying in your sins", as that proves that you never Trusted in Christ.... = NEVER born again.

Being born again, is the proof that judgement for sin, yours, is not waiting for you, after you die, and WATER can't deal with your sin.
See the Cross of Christ for the reason why WATER can't save you and is not a part of REDEMPTION.

IT is only ONE SIN... = The unpardonable sin, that DAMNs a person to Hell, and 2nd Death.

What is the unpardonable sin? = Dying as a Christ rejector... never born again.