Jesus and Commands

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GodsGrace

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Eph. 2:

7
That in the ages to come he might shew the exceeding riches of his grace in his kindness toward us through Christ Jesus.

8
For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

9
Not of works, lest any man should boast.
Grams...
Please use the "reply" button when answering someone.

Also, you've repeated what you said without explaining it.
Could you also read Ephesians 2:10 and tell me if there's a discrepancy there?
 

VictoryinJesus

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Hebrews 5:7-8 KJV
[7] Who in the days of his flesh, when he had offered up prayers and supplications with strong crying and tears unto him that was able to save him from death, and was heard in that he feared; [8] Though he were a Son, yet learned he obedience by the things which he suffered;
 
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Stranger

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I agree with you so much that I find it difficult to know where we disagree.

I agree with all you've said.
I'd say that sometimes I feel like I'm sinning for doing something that is not even listed anywhere. What is sin to one person may not be to another person. I might feel it's a sin to bother someone about something and so refrain from doing so, when someone else would have no problem with the exact same situation.

So, yes we walk by the spirit. I don't stop and check a list every time I have to decide something.

I think my problem is when you say we are not under the law.
I agree that we are not UNDER THE LAW. We are not following a list of laws but are following the love we feel for God, ourselves and others.

Maybe my fear is that new Christians could understand this to mean that the law has been abolished -- which I fear is what YOU are saying.
The law is still present. It is still useful and to be followed.

If murder was a sin before the cross, it's still a sin today. If coveting was a sin before the cross, it's still a sin today to covet what others might have. What has changed is that God has given us the power to not covet or to covet less through having the spirit of God, as you said, or some understand this as having the Holy Spirit helping us along. Same thing.

Could we say that we are not operating under the law but that does not mean that the law has been abolished? The laws of God have not been abolished - we still keep them. But we're operating under a different system.

I do believe we have been placed in a place where the law can't reach us, so we are not under the law or are to keep the law. That said, It is important that you are comfortable in your walk with the Lord. Because the Spirit of God will make us uncomfortable at times. And if you are pleased where you are at here, then praise God, continue. I'm sure He will lead you.

I think I have said, as much as I can at this point on the subject. Pleasure talking to you.

Stranger
 
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Guestman

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This is in bible study because answers should be biblically based and I'd like to avoid personal comments since they add nothing to a discussion.

I hear many say that Jesus has come to abolish the law because we are no longer under the law. This comes from
Mathew 5:17

It seems to me that Jesus plainly states that He did NOT come to abolish the law.

So, the law is a set of commands that God has given us.
Did Jesus give us any commands that we are to follow?
If so, what are they?
If not, why not.

John 14:15 says:
"If you love Me, you will keep my commandments". (NASB)

WHAT COMMANDMENTS??

At Matthew 5:17, Jesus did not say that he came to "abolish the law" (covenant), but rather to fulfill it, that set it aside as completed, for it was only for a specific time and purpose. The apostle Paul wrote to the Galatians: "However, before the faith (in Jesus) arrived, we were being guarded under (the Mosaic) law, being handed over into custody, looking to the faith that was about to be revealed. So the (Mosaic) Law (covenant, that was implemented with Abraham's descendants in 1513 B.C.E. at Mt Sinai to form a "kingdom of priests and a holy nation", Ex 19:5, 6) became our guardian leading to the Christ, so that we might be declared righteous through faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a guardian (or Mosaic Law covenant that applied only to the Israelites, Ex 31:17)".(Gal 3:23-25)

Paul further wrote to the Hebrew Christians, after explaining that "if that first covenant (Mosaic Law covenant) had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second", then says that "in his saying " a new covenant" (at Jer 31:31-34), he has made the former one (or Mosaic Law covenant) obsolete. Now that which is obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away (or being forgotten)".(Heb 8:7, 13)

Thus, from its inception some 1,500 years before Jesus arrived on the earth as the Christ, Jehovah God only intended for the Mosaic Law covenant to serve for a limited time, having a precise purpose, preparing the nation of natural Israel (in both mind and heart) for Jesus to come as the promised Messiah.

This arrival of Jesus made possible for the "new covenant", or "covenant.....for a kingdom" (or heavenly government) that replaced the old Law covenant. (Luke 22:29)
 

DPMartin

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This is in bible study because answers should be biblically based and I'd like to avoid personal comments since they add nothing to a discussion.

I hear many say that Jesus has come to abolish the law because we are no longer under the law. This comes from
Mathew 5:17

It seems to me that Jesus plainly states that He did NOT come to abolish the law.

So, the law is a set of commands that God has given us.
Did Jesus give us any commands that we are to follow?
If so, what are they?
If not, why not.

John 14:15 says:
"If you love Me, you will keep my commandments". (NASB)

WHAT COMMANDMENTS??

though there are other scriptures to support that the law hasn't been done away with as most want to believe, Paul says it pretty good here:


Rom 3:27 Where is boasting then? It is excluded. By what law? of works? Nay: but by the law of faith. 28 Therefore we conclude that a man is justified by faith without the deeds of the law. 29 Is he the God of the Jews only? is he not also of the Gentiles? Yes, of the Gentiles also: 30 Seeing it is one God, which shall justify the circumcision by faith, and uncircumcision through faith. 31 Do we then make void the law through faith? God forbid: yea, we establish the law.

anyway the law had to be fulfilled to the Father's satisfaction, hence Jesus did so, seeing it is a description of Himself. Jesus being the Word of God gave Moses the law, and then fulfilled it. so the law serve two things its a witness to the fact that Jesus is the Christ, and that no one else is. (that's why the Pharisees were using the law to try and prove that Jesus wasn't the Christ, they understood that it was a description of the Messiah)

in our faith in Christ is the law fulfilled and established in us, remember that God had said He would write the law in our hearts. so when that happens the law becomes our desire, and no one can escape what is in their hearts.
 
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dataylor

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I agree with you so much that I find it difficult to know where we disagree.

I agree with all you've said.
I'd say that sometimes I feel like I'm sinning for doing something that is not even listed anywhere. What is sin to one person may not be to another person. I might feel it's a sin to bother someone about something and so refrain from doing so, when someone else would have no problem with the exact same situation.

So, yes we walk by the spirit. I don't stop and check a list every time I have to decide something.

I think my problem is when you say we are not under the law.
I agree that we are not UNDER THE LAW. We are not following a list of laws but are following the love we feel for God, ourselves and others.

Maybe my fear is that new Christians could understand this to mean that the law has been abolished -- which I fear is what YOU are saying.
The law is still present. It is still useful and to be followed.

If murder was a sin before the cross, it's still a sin today. If coveting was a sin before the cross, it's still a sin today to covet what others might have. What has changed is that God has given us the power to not covet or to covet less through having the spirit of God, as you said, or some understand this as having the Holy Spirit helping us along. Same thing.

Could we say that we are not operating under the law but that does not mean that the law has been abolished? The laws of God have not been abolished - we still keep them. But we're operating under a different system.

I agree: As Jesus said, the Law has not been abolished. But the Old Covenant (which was the Ten Commandments) was made with Israelites, not Gentiles. Thus Gentile Christians are not bound to obey the Old Covenant or its ten commands. However, when Christians obey God's Royal Law of love, they will be practicing most of the Ten Commandments (excepting, the Sabbath).
 

GodsGrace

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I agree: As Jesus said, the Law has not been abolished. But the Old Covenant (which was the Ten Commandments) was made with Israelites, not Gentiles. Thus Gentile Christians are not bound to obey the Old Covenant or its ten commands. However, when Christians obey God's Royal Law of love, they will be practicing most of the Ten Commandments (excepting, the Sabbath).
I agree that if we obey Jesus' Two Great Commandments it does stake care of all the 10.

This just tells us that the 10 were not abolished.

As far as jew and gentile - the gentiles were grafted in. Thus the moral law is as much for the gentile as it is for the Jew.

How else would you explain
Galatians 3:28 ?

Galatians 3:28 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

If we are all one in Christ, does not every law apply to all of us?
 

Helen

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Christians are to obey God's royal law of love, which is far and above the covenant made with Israel:

If, however, you are fulfilling the royal (Greek: the King's law -- or God's law) law according to the Scripture, "You shall love your neighbor as yourself," you are doing well (James 2:8).

And this is why Paul could write:

"But if you are led by the Spirit (the law of love that motivates God Himself), you are not under the Law" (Gal 5:18).

And how is that working for you?
How many of us can honestly say that we totally fulfil "Love God with EVERYTHING we have, mind, heart, soul, strength..and neighbour as ourself" o_O
If anyone dare to say yes. They love God with every moment of the day first and foremost. Which in my book would include the whole of self...No TV, no hours watching sports , no entertainment...but like Jesus..the whole life turned over to Fathers will. If anyone say that is just what they do and how they live...I would probably have to call them a liar...
Our obedience at it very best still falls far short of God's requirements.
As you say...the new commandments are far ABOVE the old law...and no one could keep that!! Do you really believe we can and do keep the new NT laws????
I do not....put you hand up if you are.

Our only hope is knowing that Jesus and Jesus alone is our Saviour and Redeemer.
He willingly stands in our place.

Each to their own....we are free 'to try' ...but I know Who I believe and where I choose to stand..IN HIM....because however hard I try...I cannot.
 

GodsGrace

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At Matthew 5:17, Jesus did not say that he came to "abolish the law" (covenant), but rather to fulfill it, that set it aside as completed, for it was only for a specific time and purpose. The apostle Paul wrote to the Galatians: "However, before the faith (in Jesus) arrived, we were being guarded under (the Mosaic) law, being handed over into custody, looking to the faith that was about to be revealed. So the (Mosaic) Law (covenant, that was implemented with Abraham's descendants in 1513 B.C.E. at Mt Sinai to form a "kingdom of priests and a holy nation", Ex 19:5, 6) became our guardian leading to the Christ, so that we might be declared righteous through faith. But now that the faith has arrived, we are no longer under a guardian (or Mosaic Law covenant that applied only to the Israelites, Ex 31:17)".(Gal 3:23-25)

Paul further wrote to the Hebrew Christians, after explaining that "if that first covenant (Mosaic Law covenant) had been faultless, there would have been no need for a second", then says that "in his saying " a new covenant" (at Jer 31:31-34), he has made the former one (or Mosaic Law covenant) obsolete. Now that which is obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away (or being forgotten)".(Heb 8:7, 13)

Thus, from its inception some 1,500 years before Jesus arrived on the earth as the Christ, Jehovah God only intended for the Mosaic Law covenant to serve for a limited time, having a precise purpose, preparing the nation of natural Israel (in both mind and heart) for Jesus to come as the promised Messiah.

This arrival of Jesus made possible for the "new covenant", or "covenant.....for a kingdom" (or heavenly government) that replaced the old Law covenant. (Luke 22:29)
You know that the law was implemented in 1513 BC??!!

In the Davidic Covenant God promised that one day all the nations would be welcomed and grafted into His plan of salvation. God promised us a King -- Jesus is that King. He is for everyone, Jew and Gentile.
2 Samuel 7:8-17
1 Cronicles 28:7

Also, faith always existed. The Patriarchs were saved by faith as explained in Hebrews 11.

Also, you said:

"in his saying " a new covenant" (at Jer 31:31-34), he has made the former one (or Mosaic Law covenant) obsolete. Now that which is obsolete and growing old is near to vanishing away (or being forgotten)".(Heb 8:7, 13)

How was the Old Covenant made obsolete?
Hebrews 8:7,13 was written about 40 years after Jesus was resurrected.
It wasn't READY TO VANISH AWAY yet?
The O. C. was still in force if it was ONLY ready to vanish and had not vanished yet. So when do you think it would vanish away?

Your last point is regarding the Kingdom. The Kingdom of God starts here on earth as Jesus said in John 3:3.
Jesus meant that if one is born again he can actually see the Kingdom of God with his mind's eye.

Every Kingdom has a place, a ruler, inhabitants, and laws.
God's Kingdom also has laws the inhabitants are to keep.
These laws are explained by Jesus throughout the 4 gospels.
 

mjrhealth

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Laws are a funny thing, its how we set ourselves up to fail, I must keep teh law, that in itself is a law that you just instilled upon yourself, now when you break it you sin, you say top yourself, i will not be late for church, so when you arrive late, you have just broken a law that you have set up for yourself and guilt creeps in and so sin is knocking at your door. When someone demand we must keep teh law, they have just created another law that no one can keep, and set up a stumbling block for men, and themselves, and so again, we who are supposed to be free in Jesus Christ are put into bondage. HE came to set us free, seems many dont want to be free....
 
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Richard_oti

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What I'm not sure about is this:
Do we ASK our children to follow our rules
or do we DEMAND that they follow our rules?

I do not know you nor anything about you except a few words I read on this site.

For myself: I ask. The response of "love", is to do.

If I have to "demand", then the response is not that of love, but of fear.

You are part of the "bride" of Christ. Would you "ask" or "demand" that your "husband" no longer leave his dirty socks on the floor?
 
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dataylor

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I agree that if we obey Jesus' Two Great Commandments it does stake care of all the 10.

This just tells us that the 10 were not abolished.

As far as jew and gentile - the gentiles were grafted in. Thus the moral law is as much for the gentile as it is for the Jew.

How else would you explain
Galatians 3:28 ?

Galatians 3:28 New American Standard Bible (NASB)
28 There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither slave nor free man, there is neither male nor female; for you are all one in Christ Jesus.

If we are all one in Christ, does not every law apply to all of us?

Seems that you are ignoring the fact that the 10 Commandments ARE the Old Covenant. And that being the case, are you suggesting that Christians are not really under a new covenant, but under the Old? (Of course, you would not be the first to do this).
 

mjrhealth

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Seems that you are ignoring the fact that the 10 Commandments ARE the Old Covenant. And that being the case, are you suggesting that Christians are not really under a new covenant, but under the Old? (Of course, you would not be the first to do this).
Something to do with this..

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.
 

Richard_oti

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Jesus did state some new laws.
Every time He declared "You have heard it said.... But I say to you"
this is a change in the understanding of the O.T. law.
This is what it means that Jesus came to fulfill -- to make more perfect.

No, not in the example you are giving above. He was correcting the "understanding" of something existing.


Otherwise He repeated many verses from the O.T.

Most notably, he quoted Deuteronomy frequently.


I understand the beatitudes to be a teaching on how Jesus would want us to behave.

Yet, they are nothing new. The concepts already existed.

<snip>


So I would say that the beatitudes are a law:

The "Sermon on the Mount" including the "Beatitudes" are based upon teachings already contained within the TaNaKh (Old Testament) and books of wisdom.

Matthew 5:3 Blessed are the poor in spirit, for theirs is the kingdom.
TaNaKh: Mishle [Proverbs] 29:23 …he who is lowly in spirit shall obtain honor.

Matthew 5:4 Blessed are those who mourn, for they shall be comforted.
TaNaKh: Tehillim [Psalms] 147:3 He heals the brokenhearted, and binds up their wounds.

Matthew 5:5 Blessed are the meek, for they shall inherit the earth.
TaNaKh: Tehillim [Psalms] 37:11 The meek shall inherit the earth, and delight themselves in the abundance of peace.

Matthew 5:8 Blessed are the pure in heart, for they shall see God.
TaNaKh: Tehillim [Psalms] 24:3--4 Who shall ascend the mount of the Lord, and who shall stand in His holy place? He who has clean hands and a pure heart…

Matthew 5:9 Blessed are the peacemakers, for they shall be called sons of God.
TaNaKh: Tehillim [Psalms] 34:14 …seek peace and pursue it.

Matthew 5:39 …but if anyone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also…
TaNaKh: Eykhah [Lamentations] 3:30 Let him offer his cheek to him who smites him…

Matthew 5:42 Give to him who begs from you, and do not refuse him who would borrow from you.
TaNaKh: Tehillim [Psalms] 37:21 …the righteous deals graciously and gives. Psalms 37:26 All day he deals graciously and lends…

That should be enough to get the idea. Thus the concepts contained in the books of wisdom are also now part of the "law"?


Know that you need God.
Understand that we live in a fallen world.
Be gentle.
Be righteous in your dealings with others.
Be merciful to all. Practice your love.
Be pure in heart so you can hear God.
Make peace, not war.
Do not deny God.

All of which was already written beforehand.

Mic 6:8 He hath showed thee, O man, what is good; and what doth the LORD require of thee, but, to do justly, and to love mercy, and to walk humbly with thy God?
 

dataylor

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Something to do with this..

Luk 5:36 And he spake also a parable unto them; No man putteth a piece of a new garment upon an old; if otherwise, then both the new maketh a rent, and the piece that was taken out of the new agreeth not with the old.
Luk 5:37 And no man putteth new wine into old bottles; else the new wine will burst the bottles, and be spilled, and the bottles shall perish.
Luk 5:38 But new wine must be put into new bottles; and both are preserved.
Luk 5:39 No man also having drunk old wine straightway desireth new: for he saith, The old is better.

Seems we are on different wavelengths. There is nothing in the Bible that states existence of the New Covenant automatically does away with the Old. You seem to be missing Christ's words "and both are preserved." The Old Covenant is specifically for the people of of Israelite decent. And just before Jesus was crucified, He told the apostles that in the Kingdom, they would sitting on thrones, ruling over the Israelite people. So the Kingdom has need for the Old covenant, to serve those Israelites whom are resurrected without any knowledge of the new.
 

Richard_oti

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The Ten Commands were the actual Old Covenant (that's scriptural) -- a covenant made between God and unconverted, carnal human beings. God lives by His Royal Law of love, which cannot be defined with words -- and He asks Christians to do the same. However many Christians say, "But the Ten Commandments are so much easier!"

A covenant that was not only for "Israel", but also those who choose to enter therein. There was one law for both the native and the foreigner (cf Exo 12:49; Lev 24:22 and elsewhere).

According to Jesus in Matthew 5:21-28, they are not that easy. In fact, it seems easier to violate the "spirit" of the law than the "letter".

According to the Prophets, the new "heart" and "spirit" so that you may walk according to His way.

As for the "laws" of love, they were both already written.
 
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mjrhealth

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and both are preserved.
I guess you missed this bit,

But new wine must be put into new bottles,

Teh old covenant with the Jews is done, they will not be saved by the "law" or "works" but by grace just as we are,

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

If only people would take things to JEsus .. .aghhhhhhhhhh
 

Abeliever

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Hi GodsGrace, I know this scripture well and to answer your question fully will take a lot of space. So I may leave a little out. In Matt 5:17 Jesus was referring to everything that is written about Him in the OT. For the past year I've been studying the OT because for the first 30 yrs of my walk with God I studied the NT. I see you're young, nothing wrong with that. I'm 65.
Are you aware of how many things in the OT are talking about Jesus but it can't say it means Jesus because He hadn't come yet. I keep finding more and more scriptures that after I read them it hits me, That's referring to Jesus. It blows my mind. Most of us only know the scriptures in Isiah that refer to Jesus but there are many, many more. Some of them have happened already but others haven't. This is what Jesus meant in Matt 5:17. Until everything happens the earth won't end. That is the age of mankind won't end until everything written about Jesus happens. The ancient Jews also had writings they called the Book of the Law. The Pharisees and Sadducee's spent endless hours debating these things. I think today's rabbis still have copies of these books. I was never a Jew so I don't know how to get a copy. But if I finish studying the Bible I'd love to read the ancient books of the law. They aren't God inspired but I'd like to know what the Pharisees and Sadducee's used to debate. Additionally, since Jesus referred to them there's probably knowledge in them that's important. But first a person better know the Bible like the back of your hand or you'll get confused.
Jesus gave us many commands but He knew the average believer would argue over them so He tried to sum them up and make them so simple a 1st grader could understand them. Jesus boiled them down to 2 commands. 1. Love God more than anything else. Now that means obey God the Father. To God, to love means to do what He says. To God love is behavior, not just the warm cozy feeling we consider love. Ever since God performed all the miracles He used to get the Jews out of Egypt man keeps breaking the first command. Have you ever considered if you were running away from an enemy and all of sudden a sea blocked your path? I'd figure that's it, I'm going to be killed. Fear would fill me as I waited to die. But then the man leading us, Moses, raises his arms and this huge body of water opens up. Additionally, a tornado of fire blocks the path of my enemy. Moses says go down there. But I'm thinking the ground is going to be like muck and I'll get stuck. But I go, and lo and behold, the muck is solid ground. I escaped my enemy and Moses told me my God did this. Imagine if you saw all that. Would you ever doubt that God again? I don't think I would. But mankind keeps doubting Him. When we doubt God we're putting our trust in Satan. And Satan is God's #1 enemy. Satan comes in many forms, a car, a house, a job, money, pride, TV shows, even what we think is the love of another person. I can write a chapter on this alone. God always has to come first. Jesus said it.
The 2nd most important commandment Jesus gave us is to love each other as He loved us. How much did He love us? Enough to die a painful death for us. At 65 I spend a lot of time thinking about dying. It's great if you get to die in your sleep. But to have to die the way Jesus did is one of the worst ways to go. But He did it and He did it for us. Again love is behavior, and Jesus demonstrated His love with His behavior. Jesus also said to always forgive each other. If we don't God is not obligated to forgive us. Seems simple enough to me. But I've known church going people that get so angry because someone insulted them that they probably would kill that person if it wasn't illegal
If you do things like that you don't love Jesus. We all get angry and sometimes the anger is justified. But Jesus doesn't care about that, He still expects us to forgive that person. Yes, it's hard. Walking with the Lord is hard. Remember, I've been working this some 40 years, and I still make mistakes. Being a Christian is a life long journey. It does get easier but it takes time.

As you keep reading the NT you'll keep noticing more and more things Jesus said. But they all revolve around love, and love is behavior.
This is a good place for me to point something out that has changed since Jesus was here. 2000 yrs ago life was so hard no one in in their right mind would hurt themselves. So Jesus often said love others as you love yourself. There were no antibiotics back then so you could lose an arm, leg, or your life from a simple cut. Today some people cut themselves because they know they can heal it. Such a person might think it's ok with God if they cut others too. It's not ok with God. Jesus assumed we'd never hurt ourselves and unless we were fasting for God we'd never go without food. I don't think anorexia or other eating disorders existed in Jesus day. Bear that in mind when Jesus says treat others as you treat yourself.

One last thing. The laws that Jesus made unnecessary were the Jewish laws that dealt with being ceremonially clean. We don't have to do those. For example, we can eat pork but it's more healthy if you don't. In Moses day eating pork could kill you. Today we feed pigs chemicals so we don't die but now we have illnesses that so rare 35 yrs ago almost no one heard of them. Autism is an example of this. Fibromyalgia is another. We don't know what causes these illnesses but many of us think it's the food additives. Most of God's laws had a good reason. Washing the outside of a cup and thinking that made you godly was not 1 of them. Jesus mentioned that.

I hope I answered some of your questions, GodsGrace. Feel free to PM me if you want.
 

Jay Ross

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I guess you missed this bit,

But new wine must be put into new bottles,

Teh old covenant with the Jews is done, they will not be saved by the "law" or "works" but by grace just as we are,

Heb 8:6 But now hath he obtained a more excellent ministry, by how much also he is the mediator of a better covenant, which was established upon better promises.
Heb 8:7 For if that first covenant had been faultless, then should no place have been sought for the second.

If only people would take things to JEsus .. .aghhhhhhhhhh

New wine is put into refreshed wine skins because even brand new unused wine skins will fail if the wine skin has gone hard and brittle.

Also, in the letter to the Hebrews, where we find the Translated word "better," the translated Greek word is best understood to suggest that we now have a "stronger" covenant, because of Christ. God's covenant with mankind has remained the same since the time of Adam in the garden of Eden, however, the process of atonement has been changed by God twice, that I am aware of, because man fell and kept on not measuring up.

The English word "better" suggests that the original covenant has been replace by a brand new covenant, whereas if the Greek word is understood to have the meaning of a "stronger" covenant, then the covenant has not be changed at all, but only made stronger for the fallen of mankind to gain redemption, should they chose too.