Jesus and Commands

[Richard_oti]

<snip>
The 10 commandments are still in force.

I have noticed that you refer a lot to the "ten". Is it only the ten, or is there more?
How do you differentiate as to which is which? What should be and what should not be "done".

The "two" are not in the "ten".
<snip>

The atheist world lives by the 10 commandments.

Hmm, I must not be understanding your intended point here. For I do not see it.
What does shabat (sabbath) mean to you?
<snip>

Leviticus 17:11
The life is in the blood.

Speaking of which, in Acts, they were given to abstain from blood, which is not contained in the "ten".
<snip>

Sin still exists because we break the 10 commandments <snip>

Again, you mention the "ten", yet there is much that is written outside the "ten".
<snip>

 

[Webers_Home]

-
The entire of body of law that Yhvh's people agreed upon with God as per
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy isn't a universal law, rather,
it's a covenanted law, i.e. contractual.

Seeing as how Christ's followers are not contracted with God to comply with
the Jews' covenant, then neither is God contractually obligated to penalize
Christ's followers for breaching it.

God has to lower the boom on Yhvh's people with any and/or all of the
contractual curses listed at Lev 26:3-38, Deut 27:15-26, and Deut 28:1-69
for breaching the covenant, but He doesn't have to lower the boom on
Christ's followers with those curses because He isn't contracted with them to
do so. This is a very, very important aspect of Jesus' version of Christianity.

NOTE: I say "Jesus' version" because other versions of Christianity-- e.g.
Catholicism's --have incorporated compliance with the Ten Commandments
in their plans of salvation. But according to Jas 2:10, breaking any one of
the Ten Commandments is just as serious as breaking the entire law as per
Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, and Deuteronomy; consequently bringing down
upon the offender an immediate curse. (Gal 3:10 cf. Deut 27:26).

Ergo: People whose religion incorporates compliance with the Ten
Commandments in its plan of salvation, are already marked for the lake of
fire depicted at Rev 20:11-15 where they will undergo death akin to a
foundry worker falling into a kettle of molten iron.

● Rom 3:20 . . No one will be declared righteous in His sight by observing
the law (i.e. the Jew's covenant)

FYI: Christ's law-- as per Acts and the epistles of Paul, Peter, James, Jude,
and John -- contains no contractual curses for non compliance. Christ's
followers put themselves at risk of discipline for non compliance, but never
at risk of a curse that eventuates in people's termination in the lake of fire.

/

 

[Nancy]

P.S.
What would you say "fruit" referes to?
Bring forth fruit.
Does it mean to bring others into the Kingdom?
Or does it mean to do good deeds?

These are the 9 fruits of The Spirit: love, joy, peace,patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. And yes, bringing lost souls into His Kingdom would definitely be a good work done in His name to His Glory! He wishes none to perish, we are told to spread the Gospel and these things (IMO) fall under Faithfulness, if not all of the fruits in one sense or another.

-"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." So, Jesus whittled down (so to speak, lol) The Big Ten to two. If we do this, how much easier it is to be obedient from the heart. JMO

 

[Willie T]

Jesus definitely did not say 'love thy neighbour' - twinc

Then what did Mark 12:31 say?

 

[GodsGrace]

These are the 9 fruits of The Spirit: love, joy, peace,patience, kindness, goodness, faithfulness, gentleness, and self-control. And yes, bringing lost souls into His Kingdom would definitely be a good work done in His name to His Glory! He wishes none to perish, we are told to spread the Gospel and these things (IMO) fall under Faithfulness, if not all of the fruits in one sense or another.

-"Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbor as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets." So, Jesus whittled down (so to speak, lol) The Big Ten to two. If we do this, how much easier it is to be obedient from the heart. JMO

Nancy, I had to go back and refresh my memory.

We were talking about this verse back in October:

John 15:16
16“You did not choose Me but I chose you, and appointed you that you would go and bear fruit, and that your fruit would remain, so that whatever you ask of the Father in My name He may give to you.

Jesus is speaking to the Apostles. He chose THEM so that they could bear fruit.
Not the fruit of the Holy Spirit...

In Mathew 28:19-20, Jesus tell His Apostles to go into all the world and make disciples; baptizing them and teaching them all that Jesus had taught the Apostles to observe.

Also, in Mathew 4:18 Jesus tells Simon Peter and Andrew that He will make them fishers of men.

In John 15:2 we're told that God will prune His vine so that it could produce good fruit, this would be a good life with good character befitting a Christian.

When I put all of the above together, I believe the good fruit is the people that the Apostles will convert to Christianity so that they could join in the Kingdom of God on earth and make it a better place as Jesus meant it to be.

 

[BobRyan]

This is in bible study because answers should be biblically based and I'd like to avoid personal comments since they add nothing to a discussion.

I hear many say that Jesus has come to abolish the law because we are no longer under the law. This comes from
Mathew 5:17

It seems to me that Jesus plainly states that He did NOT come to abolish the law.

So, the law is a set of commands that God has given us.
Did Jesus give us any commands that we are to follow?
If so, what are they?
If not, why not.

John 14:15 says:
"If you love Me, you will keep my commandments". (NASB)

WHAT COMMANDMENTS??

In Matthew 22 Jesus quotes two commandments in the Law of Moses
Deut 6:5 "Love God with all your heart"
Lev 19:18 "Love your neighbor as yourself".

Jesus said all of the Bible "All the Law and the prophets" were firmly established on those two commands found in the Law of Moses.

In Mathew 19 - Jesus said "If you want to inherit eternal life - keep the Commandments" - and He is immediately asked the question "which ones?".

In Jesus' response He lists almost all of the TEN Commandments dealing with man's duty to man,,, the "Love your neighbor" part of it.
But He does not list "Do not take God's name in vain" and a few others of the TEN. Not because He was abolishing them - but because that was not the point He was trying to make with the "rich young ruler."

Paul gives almost that same exact list from the TEN Commandments in Romans 13.

Of course in Mark 7:6-13 - Jesus gets right down to the point of the whole thing.

 

[BobRyan]

(John 13:34) "A new commandment I give unto you, That ye love one another; as I have loved you, that ye also love one another."

(John 14:13) "And whatsoever ye shall ask in my name,that will I do...."

(John 15:4) "Abide in me, and I in you...."

(John 15:16) "...go and bring forth fruit...."

(John 21:19,22) "...Follow me."

(Matt. 26:26-29) The Lords Supper

(Matt. 28:19-20) "...teach all nations, baptizing them in the name of the Father, and of the Son, and of the Holy Ghost:..."

(John 16:12-13) Other things which will be revealed by the Holy Spirit in the New Testament.

Stranger

Matthew 19 -- Jesus is specifically asked "which ones?" -- and you included it where?? Seriously?

Mark 7:6-13 helps with "another" example of His focus on a commandment that you have left out.

Interesting that Paul also focuses on that in Eph 6:2 telling us that the 5th commandment (Honor your father and mother) is the "FIRST Commandment WITH a promise" in that still-valid unit of TEN.

 

[BobRyan]

Would anyone say that the Beatitudes in
Mathew 5:3-10 are commandments?

yes. 1050 of them in the NT. http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf

 

[APAK]

yes. 1050 of them in the NT. http://www.abc.net.au/reslib/201407/r1308729_17984331.pdf

Matt 5:3-10 are not commandments. They are those types of personalities that shall be blessed because they are the overcomers and future saints. Jesus is providing the type of person in him that shall be bless with rebirth at their own resurrection.

When one is 'in Christ' one is then in obedience and compliance with any commandment from God through Christ. We have the spiritual bonds in Christ and therefore righteous before God. 'In Christ' is the key. As we are an evolving as new creature being transformed to perfection, we are still burdened with the 'dying' being 'cut off' flesh that sins. Fortunately, God's see perfection in us as Christ is already, through the lens of Christ in us.

Blessings,

APAK

 

[dataylor]

This is in bible study because answers should be biblically based and I'd like to avoid personal comments since they add nothing to a discussion.

I hear many say that Jesus has come to abolish the law because we are no longer under the law. This comes from
Mathew 5:17

It seems to me that Jesus plainly states that He did NOT come to abolish the law.

So, the law is a set of commands that God has given us.
Did Jesus give us any commands that we are to follow?
If so, what are they?
If not, why not.

John 14:15 says:
"If you love Me, you will keep my commandments". (NASB)

WHAT COMMANDMENTS??

**********

What is often missed when discussing biblical law is precisely what the Ten Commandments were and are. The Bible clearly defines this with several passages, as follows:

And the LORD said unto Moses, Write thou these words: for after the tenor of these words I have made a covenant with thee and with Israel. And he was there with the LORD forty days and forty nights; he did neither eat bread, nor drink water. And he wrote upon the tables the words of the covenant, the ten commandments (Exodus 34:27-28).

And he declared unto you his covenant, which he commanded you to perform, even ten commandments; and he wrote them upon two tables of stone (Deuteronomy 4:13).

And I have set there a place for the ark, wherein is the covenant of the LORD, which he made with our fathers, when he brought them out of the land of Egypt (I Kings 8:21).

And in it have I put the ark, wherein is the covenant of the LORD, that he made with the children of Israel (II Chronicles 6:11).


There was nothing in the ark save the two tables of stone, which Moses put there at Horeb, when the LORD made a covenant with the children of Israel, when they came out of the land of Egypt (I Kings 8:9).
​

Thus the Ten Commandments are the Old Covenant. And likewise, the Old Covenant consists of the The commandments.

However, Christians are under the New Covenant, which is based on God's perfect law of love:

If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well (James 2:8).

Then one of them, which was a lawyer, asked him a question, tempting him, and saying, Master, which is the great commandment in the law? Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind. This is the first and great commandment. And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself. On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets (Matthew 22:35-40).

Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will [future tense] make a new covenant with the house of Israel, and with the house of Judah: Not according to the covenant that I made with their fathers in the day that I took them by the hand to bring them out of the land of Egypt; which my covenant they brake, although I was an husband unto them, saith the LORD: But this shall be the covenant that I will make with the house of Israel; After those days, saith the LORD, I will [future tense] put my law in their inward parts, and write it in their hearts; and will be their God, and they shall be my people (Jeremiah 31:31-33.


​

 

[Episkopos]

This is in bible study because answers should be biblically based and I'd like to avoid personal comments since they add nothing to a discussion.

I hear many say that Jesus has come to abolish the law because we are no longer under the law. This comes from
Mathew 5:17

It seems to me that Jesus plainly states that He did NOT come to abolish the law.

So, the law is a set of commands that God has given us.
Did Jesus give us any commands that we are to follow?
If so, what are they?
If not, why not.

John 14:15 says:
"If you love Me, you will keep my commandments". (NASB)

WHAT COMMANDMENTS??

I see this is an older thread. But the question is up to date.

I've tried sharing this before...but a lot of people are hard of understanding....and maybe you will not get it either....but I'll try.

God is love.

His commandments are to love.

The 10 commandments can be boiled down to 2 main commandments...Love God.....and love others.

The first 4 commandments were written on a stone tablet. These are the HOLINESS commandments. They say....love God.

The last 6 commandments were written on the another stone tablet. These are the righteousness commandments. They say...love others.

We obey the first 4 commandments by following Christ. HOLINESS now is to enter into Him.The old temple holiness laws are abolished because the real deal is here.

But the "royal law" which is the 2nd tablet remains....love others. Do this and live. (future life)

BOTH main commandments are fulfilled in a new commandment.....to love as Jesus loved. Do this and receive a reward...(life now plus future glory)

 

[Episkopos]

Matt 5:3-10 are not commandments. They are those types of personalities that shall be blessed because they are the overcomers and future saints. Jesus is providing the type of person in him that shall be bless with rebirth at their own resurrection.

The sermon on the mount is not about overcomers and saints....but about the kind of people called "the righteous." This is a kind of person found all over the world.....regardless of religious affiliation.

As difficult as it is for the religiously biased person to accept...God has a bigger vision than people. So the sermon on the mount is a kind of letter of intent....

God will show mercy to the merciful.....the merciful what? JUST the merciful.

When one is 'in Christ' one is then in obedience and compliance with any commandment from God through Christ. We have the spiritual bonds in Christ and therefore righteous before God. 'In Christ' is the key.

There are 2 ways of being "in Christ." One way is to just be a believer...trying to be a Christian with varying degrees of success...but never being as Jesus.

Then there is "abiding in Christ" which means a walk exactly like Jesus'. This is the walk in the gift of HIS perfection in the walk by grace...the power of God. This is accomplished by giving us His resurrection life. It is IN HOLINESS. It fulfills the command to BE HOLY.

As we are an evolving as new creature being transformed to perfection, we are still burdened with the 'dying' being 'cut off' flesh that sins. Fortunately, God's see perfection in us as Christ is already, through the lens of Christ in us.

Blessings,

APAK

Actually God sees us exactly as we are. No fantasy. "Christ in us" is a potential...a hope. NOT a done deal as many claim. But until we abide in Christ (go to live in Zion through "translation" by the Spirit) that potential doesn't become the power that causes His life to overflow from our spirits...into our souls....and into the world around us.

What we are learning is to be mature in character. We can do that to some degree by just watching and praying. But again, there is nothing like BEING with Christ to learn His ways. As such we go in and out of the Spirit and are forged as metal into the image of Jesus. Going in and out is like the hammer going up and down....or like breathing in and out. It is part and parcel of spiritual life.

 

[bbyrd009]

wow @GodsGrace you been here a year already?

Jesus definitely did not say 'love thy neighbour' - twinc

@twinc hmm you're tags don't seem to work, your name won't pull up, and wonder what happened to twincy?

 

[Helen]

wow @GodsGrace you been here a year already?

@twinc hmm you're tags don't seem to work, your name won't pull up, and wonder what happened to twincy?

Oh no...you are so right.

If old Jim had just died then his profile would still be there ....but as you say...his profile page has gone. Which is what happens when people are suspended or banned.

He is almost 90 ....so I hope that he did not get banned.
He has always been a bit contentious and argumentative....but not 'ban-worthy' That's sad.

 

[Nancy]

Oh no...you are so right.

If old Jim had just died then his profile would still be there ....but as you say...his profile page has gone. Which is what happens when people are suspended or banned.

He is almost 90 ....so I hope that he did not get banned.
He has always been a bit contentious and argumentative....but not 'ban-worthy' That's sad.

Oh, this is sad...I hope he is okay...but if he is with The Lord then he IS more than okay ♥

 

[bbyrd009]

his profile page has gone

ah, didn't realize.

 

[BobRyan]

Matt 5:3-10 are not commandments.

Yes they are. Jesus is not saying "some folks like red and others like blue"

imperatives come in many forms

They are those types of personalities that shall be blessed because they are the overcomers and future saints. Jesus is providing the type of person in him that shall be bless with rebirth at their own resurrection.

It is prescriptive - not merely descriptive as you have supposed.

These are imperatives.


Disciples and the World
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Personal Relationships
21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23 Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

31 “It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

33 “Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

 

[1stCenturyLady]

There are 2 ways of being "in Christ." One way is to just be a believer...trying to be a Christian with varying degrees of success...but never being as Jesus.

Then there is "abiding in Christ" which means a walk exactly like Jesus'. This is the walk in the gift of HIS perfection in the walk by grace...the power of God. This is accomplished by giving us His resurrection life. It is IN HOLINESS. It fulfills the command to BE HOLY.

I agree, but is the first person really born again? The Church is overflowing with this type of lukewarm Christian. If they do not have the Spirit of Christ to be like Him, are they really saved?

 

[1stCenturyLady]

Yes they are. Jesus is not saying "some folks like red and others like blue"

imperatives come in many forms




It is prescriptive - not merely descriptive as you have supposed.

These are imperatives.


Disciples and the World
13 “You are the salt of the earth; but if the salt has become tasteless, how can it be made salty again? It is no longer good for anything, except to be thrown out and trampled under foot by men.

14 “You are the light of the world. A city set on a hill cannot be hidden; 15 nor does anyone light a lamp and put it under a basket, but on the lampstand, and it gives light to all who are in the house. 16 Let your light shine before men in such a way that they may see your good works, and glorify your Father who is in heaven.

17 “Do not think that I came to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I did not come to abolish but to fulfill. 18 For truly I say to you, until heaven and earth pass away, not the smallest letter or stroke shall pass from the Law until all is accomplished. 19 Whoever then annuls one of the least of these commandments, and teaches others to do the same, shall be called least in the kingdom of heaven; but whoever keeps and teaches them, he shall be called great in the kingdom of heaven.

20 “For I say to you that unless your righteousness surpasses that of the scribes and Pharisees, you will not enter the kingdom of heaven.

Personal Relationships
21 “You have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not commit murder’ and ‘Whoever commits murder shall be liable to the court.’ 22 But I say to you that everyone who is angry with his brother shall be guilty before the court; and whoever says to his brother, ‘You good-for-nothing,’ shall be guilty before the supreme court; and whoever says, ‘You fool,’ shall be guilty enough to go into the fiery hell. 23 Therefore if you are presenting your offering at the altar, and there remember that your brother has something against you, 24 leave your offering there before the altar and go; first be reconciled to your brother, and then come and present your offering. 25 Make friends quickly with your opponent at law while you are with him on the way, so that your opponent may not hand you over to the judge, and the judge to the officer, and you be thrown into prison. 26 Truly I say to you, you will not come out of there until you have paid up the last cent.

27 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall not commit adultery’; 28 but I say to you that everyone who looks at a woman with lust for her has already committed adultery with her in his heart. 29 If your right eye makes you stumble, tear it out and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to be thrown into hell. 30 If your right hand makes you stumble, cut it off and throw it from you; for it is better for you to lose one of the parts of your body, than for your whole body to go into hell.

31 “It was said, ‘Whoever sends his wife away, let him give her a certificate of divorce’; 32 but I say to you that everyone who divorces his wife, except for the reason of unchastity, makes her commit adultery; and whoever marries a divorced woman commits adultery.

33 “Again, you have heard that the ancients were told, ‘You shall not make false vows, but shall fulfill your vows to the Lord.’ 34 But I say to you, make no oath at all, either by heaven, for it is the throne of God, 35 or by the earth, for it is the footstool of His feet, or by Jerusalem, for it is the city of the great King. 36 Nor shall you make an oath by your head, for you cannot make one hair white or black. 37 But let your statement be, ‘Yes, yes’ or ‘No, no’; anything beyond these is of evil.

38 “You have heard that it was said, ‘An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.’ 39 But I say to you, do not resist an evil person; but whoever slaps you on your right cheek, turn the other to him also. 40 If anyone wants to sue you and take your shirt, let him have your coat also. 41 Whoever forces you to go one mile, go with him two. 42 Give to him who asks of you, and do not turn away from him who wants to borrow from you.

43 “You have heard that it was said, ‘You shall love your neighbor and hate your enemy.’ 44 But I say to you, love your enemies and pray for those who persecute you, 45 so that you may be sons of your Father who is in heaven; for He causes His sun to rise on the evil and the good, and sends rain on the righteous and the unrighteous. 46 For if you love those who love you, what reward do you have? Do not even the tax collectors do the same? 47 If you greet only your brothers, what more are you doing than others? Do not even the Gentiles do the same? 48 Therefore you are to be perfect, as your heavenly Father is perfect.

Jesus lived under the Law, but came to introduce a new way to fulfill the righteous requirements of the Law. Matthew 5 contrasts the two ways. "...But i say to you,..."

The old way was the Ten Commandments - the ministry of sin and death. The new way is through the Spirit, and is far superior.

" Nevertheless what does the Scripture say? “Cast out the bondwoman and her son, for the son of the bondwoman shall not be heir with the son of the freewoman.”

 

[Episkopos]

I agree, but is the first person really born again? The Church is overflowing with this type of lukewarm Christian. If they do not have the Spirit of Christ to be like Him, are they really saved?

There's that word again. "saved" I really think people don't know what that means.

If a veteran comes back from war with his arms and legs blown off....and is reduced to being a vegetable because of head injuries...but is fully alive besides that. Is he "saved?" He isn't dead. But he is a casualty.

So it depends on your definition of saved.

Most saved people are casualties. They begin ok but then they step on the landmines of false doctrines...and don't seem to be able to walk away the same. They trade in spiritual freedom for what is called "eternal security".

But as anyone knows freedom and security don't mix.