S.T. Ranger, I think you are right. When the Bible says "souls" it is about a spirit with their body. In the scriptures you brought up here, it tells us first about the saints and about what happend to them in their bodies, they were slain for the word of God. White robes were given to them. This would show that it is spiritual now.....and yes, they are in heaven.
Jesus Christ Is The Only “…first Born From The Dead.”
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S.T. Ranger, I think you are right. When the Bible says "souls" it is about a spirit with their body. In the scriptures you brought up here, it tells us first about the saints and about what happend to them in their bodies, they were slain for the word of God. White robes were given to them. This would show that it is spiritual now.....and yes, they are in heaven.
Ranger, First I would agree that these post are for the "seekers" as you call them. Now that I said that, I will try to show you something in the scriptures you might not have considered. There is more than one heaven. Earth= Heaven, Sky =Heaven, 3rd Heaven Where the Father, Jesus, and the Angels are. Now that I made this statement it's time to prove it in the scriptures.
Two things in this post I found to be interesting, and quickly, as I do not have a lot of time, I will re-address them so as to try to follow a thought process to a conclusion, rather than leave it hanging.
The first is this challenge, which, I don't think I will prove it to the poster, because we view events a little differently, and will have to somehow conclusively finalize the original complaint/s concerning the premise of the OP, and I have yet to see anyone actually change their position due to debate on a forum, no matter how well the position is defended.
It is good, though, for those who I would call "seekers," who are watching the forums, and perhaps doing so because God has moved them to seek Him.
For their sake, I think it good that they see the opposing positions presented, and am confident that the Lord will work in their lives as He sees fit, bringing them to the conclusion that will further the process of bringing them to saving faith through His word.
I hope that my posting will not bring offense to either them, or those involved in the discussion, though I have no doubt that when certain doctrines are presented and refuted, offense will be taken.
To "prove" the quote above, it will need to be established that when one dies, they either go into a consciousless existence in the grave, as the OP affirms, or, they go into either Heaven or Hell, depending on their acceptance or rejection of the command of God, to believe in the name of Jesus Christ.
The other thing that I found interesting in this post, was the observation that the tribulational martyrs resurrected in Revelation ch. 20 were "not in heaven," but, as would be a likely and reasonable assumption, on earth, where the bodies of those who have died will be resurrected, which I think is a good observation, seeing as to how their bodies are in fact on the earth...in the "grave."
However, it must be pointed out in this discussion, that prior to their resurrection, it seems clear that they are in heaven, and I think that can be established quite easily.
John is called to heaven, I think most will agree.
The Throne of God is seen, as well as 24 seats (same word as throne). Revelation 4:1-4
Jumping to Revelation 20:4 we are told John sees thrones.
It is reasonable, though maybe not conclusive, to assume these thrones are the same "seats" found in ch.4, and are in heaven.
Even as it is reasonable to assume that the throne of Revelation 20:11-12 is also in heaven.
Whatever conclusion you come to, it still brings to mind the idea that those resurrected are in heaven.
We see those who are clearly designated as martyrs here:
Revelation 6:9-11 (King James Version)
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9[/sup]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[sup]10[/sup]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [sup]11[/sup]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
...clearly representing a conscious state for those who have died.
This group is not designated specifically as "tribulational martyrs" as those found in Revelation 20: 4 are, but it would not be an unreasonable conclusion, I think, to think they are. But this is not really a point that needs to be debated concerning the discussion at hand.
While we are here, I would point this out, when the first four seals are opened, in Revelation 6:1-8, the four "beasts" (living beings) say, "Come, and see."
Why? I believe it is simple: they are in heaven, yet the events unfolding take place upon the earth, thus, the need to look from heaven...to earth.
Yet, when the fifth seal is broken, consider:
Revelation 6:9-11 (King James Version)
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[sup][/sup]
9[/sup]And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
[sup]10[/sup]And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth? [sup]11[/sup]And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.
...no need to "Come and see," for the event takes place in heaven.
Sound reasonable?
I will stop there, and give opportunity to respond to this post.
GTY
1) The word Heaven = Earth
Deut. 30: [sup]3[/sup]That then the LORD thy God will turn thy captivity, and have compassion upon thee, and will return and gather thee from all the nations, whither the LORD thy God hath scattered thee. [sup]4[/sup]If any of thine be driven out unto the outmost parts of heaven, from thence will the LORD thy God gather thee, and from thence will he fetch thee:
[sup]5[/sup]And the LORD thy God will bring thee into the land which thy fathers possessed, and thou shalt possess it; and he will do thee good, and multiply thee above thy fathers.
Now, when you read this you can't assume this is Heaven where God resides. No this Heaven here represents the earth.
Isaiah 13:[sup]4[/sup]The noise of a multitude in the mountains, like as of a great people; a tumultuous noise of the kingdoms of nations gathered together: the LORD of hosts mustereth the host of the battle.
[sup]5[/sup]They come from a far country, from the end of heaven, even the LORD, and the weapons of his indignation, to destroy the whole land.
Again we see the word heaven representing the earth.
2) The word Heaven = sky
2 Kings 2:[sup] [/sup][sup]11[/sup]And it came to pass, as they still went on, and talked, that, behold, there appeared a chariot of fire, and horses of fire, and parted them both asunder; and Elijah went up by a whirlwind into heaven. Now when you read this with no understanding, some would say he had to go to heaven, with God. Let's examine, and see if that's true.
2 Chron. 21: [sup]12[/sup]And there came a writing to him from Elijah the prophet, saying, Thus saith the LORD God of David thy father, Because thou hast not walked in the ways of Jehoshaphat thy father, nor in the ways of Asa king of Judah,
Look into the time frame of when this letter was written, do a study, and you see it was written after the whirl wind episode.
If he would of went to heaven where God was, then Jesus wouldn't of made this statement John 3:[sup]13[/sup]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. This would have included Elijah!
The word Heaven= 3rd Heaven
Eph. 4:[sup]9[/sup](Now that he ascended, what is it but that he also descended first into the lower parts of the earth?(the grave!)
[sup]10[/sup]He that descended is the same also that ascended up far above all heavens, that he might fill all things.) Jesus did this! Did you notice the word heavens!
2Cor.12:[sup]2[/sup]I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth;) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
Now that I have show you this maybe you will begin to understand Revelations 6& 20.
First lets understand the time frame of John's vision, because that's what it was, a vision. Rev. 1:[sup]10[/sup]I was in the Spirit on the Lord's day, and heard behind me a great voice, as of a trumpet, (My question to you is, when is the Lord's day?) Isn't this after the tribulation.
Rev. 4:[sup]1[/sup]After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter. [sup]2[/sup]And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne. This throne that is sitting in heaven. What heaven? I'll tell you, the earth! Let's read, Luke 1:[sup]31[/sup]And, behold, thou shalt conceive in thy womb, and bring forth a son, and shalt call his name JESUS.
[sup]32[/sup]He shall be great, and shall be called the Son of the Highest: and the Lord God shall give unto him the throne of his father David:
[sup]33[/sup]And he shall reign over the house of Jacob for ever; and of his kingdom there shall be no end. (So Jesus is going to reign from His father David's throne. Where did David rule? In Jerusalem, on earth. Will He be the only one ruling?) Matthew 25:[sup]31[/sup]When the Son of man shall come in his glory, and all the holy angels with him, then shall he sit upon the throne of his glory:[sup]34[/sup]Then shall the King say unto them on his right hand, Come, ye blessed of my Father, inherit the kingdom prepared for you from the foundation of the world: (So there will be more rulers with him.) Luke22:[sup]29[/sup]And I appoint unto you a kingdom, as my Father hath appointed unto me; [sup]30[/sup]That ye may eat and drink at my table in my kingdom, and sit on thrones judging the twelve tribes of Israel. Rev 3: [sup]21[/sup]To him that overcometh will I grant to sit with me in my throne, even as I also overcame, and am set down with my Father in his throne. (Let's go back and read)
Rev 4:[sup]2[/sup]And immediately I was in the spirit: and, behold, a throne was set in heaven, and one sat on the throne.
[sup]3[/sup]And he that sat was to look upon like a jasper and a sardine stone: and there was a rainbow round about the throne, in sight like unto an emerald.
[sup]4[/sup]And round about the throne were four and twenty seats: and upon the seats I saw four and twenty elders sitting, clothed in white raiment; and they had on their heads crowns of gold. (Look at these 24 clothed in white raiment. What does this mean?)
Phil.3:[sup]20[/sup]For our conversation is in heaven; from whence also we look for the Saviour, the Lord Jesus Christ: [sup]21[/sup]Who shall change our vile body, that it may be fashioned like unto his glorious body, according to the working whereby he is able even to subdue all things unto himself.
1 Cor.5: [sup]2[/sup]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven: [sup]3[/sup]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked. [sup]4[/sup]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.( This is why Paul makes this statement in the next couple verses.) vs [sup]6[/sup]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:[sup]7[/sup](For we walk by faith, not by sight:) [sup]8[/sup]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord. (Paul knew to be absent from that vile body, he would get a new body, and be present with the Lord, at a set time. What time?)
1 Cor.15:[sup]49[/sup]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.[sup]50[/sup]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.[sup]51[/sup]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, [sup]52[/sup]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. [sup]53[/sup]For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
To Conclude:The time frame is at the last trump! After the tribulation! So what you read in Rev. 4:2-4, and Rev 20:11-15 was on earth, not in the 3rd heaven, because judgment will be given on earth! and as for Rev. 6, the dead do not speak, I showed you it was a metaphor!
Anastacia, As for Heb. 12:[sup]23[/sup]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, These are names written in heaven. Here is an example of it. Phil. 4: [sup]3[/sup]And I intreat thee also, true yokefellow, help those women which laboured with me in the gospel, with Clement also, and with other my fellowlabourers, whose names are in the book of life. Where is the book of life? Heaven! the 3rd Heaven where no man has been. John 3: [sup]13[/sup]And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven. If it were the case, that a righteous spirit were in heaven, according to you. Then why didn't Peter mentioned that when he was speaking of David in the book of Acts. Acts 2:[sup]25[/sup]For David speaketh concerning him, I foresaw the Lord always before my face, for he is on my right hand, that I should not be moved: [sup]26[/sup]Therefore did my heart rejoice, and my tongue was glad; moreover also my flesh shall rest in hope:
[sup]27[/sup]Because thou wilt not leave my soul in hell, neither wilt thou suffer thine Holy One to see corruption.
[sup]28[/sup]Thou hast made known to me the ways of life; thou shalt make me full of joy with thy countenance.
[sup]29[/sup]Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day.
Did you read, What I read? Notice Peter didn't say anything about David's spirit being with the Lord. That would of been something important, to mention. Let continue!
[sup]30[/sup]Therefore being a prophet, and knowing that God had sworn with an oath to him, that of the fruit of his loins, according to the flesh, he would raise up Christ to sit on his throne;
[sup]31[/sup]He seeing this before spake of the resurrection of Christ, that his soul was not left in hell, neither his flesh did see corruption.
Did you also notice vs 31, that Jesus soul was not left in hell. Why would righteous Jesus even have to go to this place? BECAUSE, HELL MEANS THE GRAVE!
And as for your last couple of post saying what I'm teaching is a doctrine of death. Everything I have said I've backed it with scripture. Not twisting it, not interpreting it, as you say, Just copying and pasting it, so the seeker of the truth can find it. It doesn't surprise me though, that you will react that way. It is spoken about in the scriptures. 2 Peter 2:
[sup]1[/sup]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
[sup]2[/sup]And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. So continue to say your comments. It just strengthens my faith.
Xander, You deny the word of God. You ignore the fact what the Bible says about the spirits of the righeous men being in heaven. You even deny there are spirits. Even the Pharisees acknowledged spirits. Here is a scripture for you, again.
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Matthew 23:13
"Woe to you, teachers of the law and Pharisees, you hypocrites! You shut the kingdom of heaven in men's faces. You yourselves do not enter, nor will you let those enter who are trying to. Matthew 23:13
What about what Jesus said on the cross?
Luke 23:32 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Jesus promised the thief on the cross next to Him that after death they would be together in heaven. Does Jesus lie?? Can you somehow twist the meaning of the words of our Lord? Somehow I suspect you will try.
I don't believe we are given our resurrection bodies (as Jesus was given on His resurrection) until the day the Lord returns. But before that we dwell with our Lord (as He clearly states) in spiritual form. Everything will change on that glorious Last Day, when Jesus returns, the wicked are judged and we are given our eternal bodies and receive our gifts, or crowns from our God.
I know you guys will spit verse upon verse at me....its what you do. But I simply do not trust your interpretation of scripture....and thats all it is....interpretation. I trust what Jesus said...or when it really comes down to it, I just trust Jesus. He plan is perfect, whatever it may be....and lets face it, He has no need to reveal all of it, or any of it to us.
So argue if you must, Ecc and xander, but know that said arguing, especially when you begin by snidely announcing that "Granny is not in heaven" is only hurting people and undermining their trust and hope in Jesus.
Luke 23:32 Jesus answered him, "I tell you the truth, today you will be with me in paradise."
Jesus promised the thief on the cross next to Him that after death they would be together in heaven. Does Jesus lie?? Can you somehow twist the meaning of the words of our Lord? Somehow I suspect you will try.
I don't believe we are given our resurrection bodies (as Jesus was given on His resurrection) until the day the Lord returns. But before that we dwell with our Lord (as He clearly states) in spiritual form. Everything will change on that glorious Last Day, when Jesus returns, the wicked are judged and we are given our eternal bodies and receive our gifts, or crowns from our God.
I know you guys will spit verse upon verse at me....its what you do. But I simply do not trust your interpretation of scripture....and thats all it is....interpretation. I trust what Jesus said...or when it really comes down to it, I just trust Jesus. He plan is perfect, whatever it may be....and lets face it, He has no need to reveal all of it, or any of it to us.
So argue if you must, Ecc and xander, but know that said arguing, especially when you begin by snidely announcing that "Granny is not in heaven" is only hurting people and undermining their trust and hope in Jesus.
Rach I have debated with you on other subjects, and you failed to refute any of the scriptures presented to you. If you came on this forum to give your opinion, fine. Noted! But your opinion, is just that, opinions. Not facts just opinions! But since you did bring up about what Jesus said on the cross, I'll clear up that error inyour mind also. I'll do it when I have more time. Look for my reply in the morning. I'm at work!
Anastacia, It is clear you are not here to learn, so I will not repond to you any longer. The only scripture you have posted since being on this thread is Heb 12:23, Which you clearly interpreted. I have cleared up that error, using both Old and New Testaments. I will no longer respond to your post, because you are only saying your opinion. You try to attack me with the scriptures. Using Matthew 23:13 . YOU CONTINUE TO BUILD MY FAITH. This will be my last scripture for you. 2 Peter 2:
[sup]1[/sup]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction.
[sup]2[/sup]And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of.
I will do as the Lord say's. Matthew7: [sup]6[/sup]Give not that which is holy unto the dogs, neither cast ye your pearls before swine, lest they trample them under their feet, and turn again and rend you.
Lets read, and understand what Jesus said on the cross.
Luke 23:[sup]42[/sup]And he said unto Jesus, Lord, remember me when thou comest into thy kingdom. [sup]43[/sup]And Jesus said unto him, Verily I say unto thee, Today shalt thou be with me in paradise.( My question to all is, did Jesus mean that very day?) Let's see!
Matthew 12:[sup]39[/sup]But he answered and said unto them, An evil and adulterous generation seeketh after a sign; and there shall no sign be given to it, but the sign of the prophet Jonas:
[sup]40[/sup]For as Jonas was three days and three nights in the whale's belly; so shall the Son of man be three days and three nights in the heart of the earth. (So Jesus had to go into the earth for 3 days and 3 nights) Keep that in mind!
John 20:[sup]15[/sup]Jesus saith unto her, Woman, why weepest thou? whom seekest thou? She, supposing him to be the gardener, saith unto him, Sir, if thou have borne him hence, tell me where thou hast laid him, and I will take him away.
[sup]16[/sup]Jesus saith unto her, Mary. She turned herself, and saith unto him, Rabboni; which is to say, Master. [sup]17[/sup]Jesus saith unto her, Touch me not; for I am not yet ascended to my Father: but go to my brethren, and say unto them, I ascend unto my Father, and your Father; and to my God, and your God.
(Jesus told her to touch Him not, because He had tp present himself a living sacrifice before God. so after three days, Jesus still hadn't gone to heaven. My question is, did the theif go to heaven before Jesus? I think not! )
Col. 1:[sup]18[/sup]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.[sup]18[/sup]And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence. ( Jesus was the first born of the dead, meaning all He told the theif was that very day, the theif got saved. But the theif will have to wait for his reward like everyone else!)
Heb 11:[sup]39[/sup]And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise: [sup]40[/sup]God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. 2 Tim 4:[sup]8[/sup]Henceforth there is laid up for me a crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous judge, shall give me at that day: and not to me only, but unto all them also that love his appearing. Hopefully that helps.
I'm sorry, I got the giggles over your reply. I've "failed to refute any of the scriptures presented" to me?? Are you quite serious?? I'd suggest you go back and re read our conversations (which are full of scripture and refutation) but I know you wont, and I know that even if you did you would completely ignore everything shown to you, as you did then.
I know your sort...you are zealous, fanatical about YOUR ideas, and blind, deaf...and, well, stubborn to any other thoughts and truths. Now, being zealous for the Lord is no problem, but you; you continuously miss the point. The fact that you believe the Trinity is a pagan belief is quite frankly heresy...but that is such a major topic, it is for another thread.
The point you are missing here is: we shall be with the Lord. Does it matter if "granny" is with the Lord right now? I believe she is if she was a Christian, but even if some don't think that we know she will be at some point, and thats what matters. It's fine to discuss points on this and that, but by making such a fervent argument about this we distract people from whats important; Jesus.
Now, you can quote all the verses you want (and as we see, you do...and do....and then some more) and I'm all for the bible, it is after all the inerrant word of God. But if we truly believe that ALL scripture is beneficial, we need to look at all of it IN context. It's called being multi-perspectival...we take all the verses that speak on a subject and consider what they all mean...not just the one thats worded the best way to fit your perspective. Its funny that you believe that my opinion is just that; opinion. You're correct of course, but yours is equally opinionated, and quite frankly yours breaks away in so many important areas to the orthodox Christian fathers' doctrine, that I don't believe your opinions are to be trusted, no matter how you twist scripture to fit it. In the case of this subject it is my opinion that it can be stated quite simply.
- The bible says clearly that we receive our glorified bodies when Jesus comes again
- That until the End of Time, our unglorified bodies rest in the ground.
- Jesus also tells the thief that they will be together in paradise, showing us that in some form we WILL be with Jesus after death.
I believe the truth of Jesus. I follow His commandments, keep His Sabbaths, Feast days. I don't sacrifice animals, Jesus was are final sacrifice. I read all the word, and believe all the word as truth. I don't believe in keeping pagan holidays such as Christmas( winter solstice), Easter( Goddess of futility), Sunday worship(Suns day of worship) All these are pagan beliefs. If you keep these holidays, you should be careful who you call a heretic! Paul said it best! Acts 24:[sup]14[/sup]But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets: ( I believe what Paul believes, ALL THINGS WHICH ARE WRITTEN IN THE LAW AND THE PROPHETS!) I also notice you had no response using scripture for my last post about the thief and Jesus. Listen to your response "The point you are missing here is: we shall be with the Lord. Does it matter if "granny" is with the Lord right now? I believe she is if she was a Christian, but even if some don't think that we know she will be at some point, and thats what matters. It's fine to discuss points on this and that, but by making such a fervent argument about this we distract people from whats important; Jesus." This discussion isn't distracting people from what's important. We know Jesus is what's important. But I can't sit back, and have people lie to those with no understanding, seeking the truth in the word! It is a lie to say a person is going to get judged as soon as they die. If your statement was what you originally thought, then why asked the questioned about the thief in the first place? You tried to contradict what I was saying, out of spite. Maybe you should of read the whole thread, you'll probably learn something. I take into consideration everyone's comments. I look forward to learning something new everyday in the word. I know the truth in the Lord! I have shown it time after time, with out interpreting it. I believe what the word says that's all. So you can follow me around from thread to thread, hopefully you'll learn something!
- The bible says clearly that we receive our glorified bodies when Jesus comes again (truth, I agree)
- That until the End of Time, our unglorified bodies rest in the ground. (truth, I agree)
- Jesus also tells the thief that they will be together in paradise, showing us that in some form we WILL be with Jesus after death. (Lie, prove that with scripture!)
Xander said:
"I believe the truth of Jesus. I follow His commandments, keep His Sabbaths, Feast days. I don't sacrifice animals, Jesus was are final sacrifice. I read all the word, and believe all the word as truth. I don't believe in keeping pagan holidays such as Christmas( winter solstice), Easter( Goddess of futility), Sunday worship(Suns day of worship) All these are pagan beliefs."
This very paragraph tells me that again you have missed the point. Why do you suppose that Jesus died on the cross for us? Just so we didn't have to kill poor little animals anymore? God knew (and the old T certainly shows us) that man CANNOT keep the old laws. We are imperfect ergo it is impossible. Oh you may say that you follow the dietary laws to the T, but dude...do you wear tassels on your cloak...do you even wear a cloak? 613 laws that all need to be perfectly kept, to be a sinless being. God knew it could not be done by us, and so he offered us grace. Grace through our Lord Jesus Christ, who lived perfectly as we cannot, and died once to fulfil the law and redeem us. It is done and we are free to live not under the shadow of the law (which is what you are ultimately suggesting) but in the light of his mercy and love. Does this mean I dismiss things like the 10 commandments? How can I when the first two commandments tell me this: Have no other god before Me, and worship no idols. A wise man once noted that if we keep the first two, the other 8 should be a problem, as they stem out from idolatry and false religion. But if I still hold to the idea that eating pork will doom my soul, then I dismiss Jesus sacrifice, and worse I diminish it.
And as far as your 'pagan holidays' go, well, you think the Trinity is a pagan belief. How can you claim to love a God you deny? Oh sure, you claim the Bible doesn't support the Trinity, that it is never mentioned, but again, you fail to see what the Holy Spirit, who inspired the writing of the Bible, is telling us. How can you reconcile God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit with God Himself telling us there is only one God? Do you say He lies? Do you believe He has a personality disorder? Because quite frankly no matter what you claim, you are either doing just that or out right denying Him. When all the church fathers got together to discuss such things do you believe them wrong? If you do then you are by definition a heretic-
"anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle."
Christmas? Easter? I don't really care about where you think they come from. On Christmas I remember the joy and hope brought to us in Christs birth, and on Easter I remember and thank Jesus for not only dying for my sins, but for rising from the dead - giving us all hope of resurrection. Sunday is the day when we worship because it is the day when Jesus rose from the grave-signaling the new covenant. Matthew 28:1 "After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week..." This is Sunday, just so you know.
So really, is loving Jesus, remembering Jesus a sin? Does it break the 10 commandment? Nope. In which case your above paragraph is meaningless babble. Mark 7:6-7 And He said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me, in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" '. You strive to keep alive what Jesus has made redundant.
Xander said:
"Paul said it best! Acts 24:[sup]14[/sup]But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets"
Once again you take things out of context. In this passage Paul is defending himself from charges of sedition. This verse is where he admits, yes, he is a Christian, one Jews would label a sect or heresy. But he goes on to say that still, he worships the God of the Jewish people. He is not suggesting to follow after false gods. This is the correct meaning of this passage...have you read the entirety of it? You cannot take this and say "See! Paul says we have to follow all the old laws". Do you even bother to read everything else Paul says about this??? I have seen many people give you verse after verse proving that Paul is a new covenant Christian, and you refuse to see it. This is your blindness, no one else's.
As far as your verses regarding Jesus on the cross, I had no seen that post. Time differences meant I thought you were still at work! But to answer you:
You say that when Jesus told the thief they would be in paradise together that very day, he was mistaken, as Jesus was in the ground for 3 days. Now, either Jesus was mistaken, He lied, or there is a valid reason. I have my opinion, like you, but I know Jesus can't lie, He's never mistaken, and so my reasoning is this. Jesus' earthly body lay in a tomb (the ground) for 3 days. Do you suppose that His soul was just...gone, asleep during this time? I don't believe so, I believe His soul or spirit if you want was someone...no doubt with the thief (as our Lord does not lie!!). Lets face it, the bible doesn't speak a lot of that time, and some pretty awesome things took place. Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
I mean, wow! And can anyone really know what this exactly means? Plenty of people have ideas and opinions, but when it comes down to it; God doesn't need us to know everything!
As far as Jesus telling the women not to touch Him because He hadn't ascended into heaven yet, what about when He told Thomas to touch Him? This was still before His ascension. So your idea here is moot. Plus my point was that the thief was with Jesus. And thats the point of this post, yeah? That people are/are not with God after they die? If the thief was, do you suppose he got left behind Jesus went up to heaven? I think not. And besides if we want to get into it, God is omnipresent, still is? Who knows where the dead are, but that doesn't mean God can't be with them, and they with Him? By saying "It has to be this way" is by reason limiting God, which is wrong. And also for your thoughts, if Christians don't go to be with Jesus as soon as they die, why does the NT keep talking of it? Phil 1:23, 2 Cor 5:8, Rev 6:9.
2 Cor 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord
So yes, Jesus was the first to be given a resurrected body, the First fruits, but other passages indicate you're wrong.
Your last scriptures have absolutely no bearing on the argument. That entire passage talks of faith, and in fact those last verses talk of the better, new covenant under Jesus, which kinda proves my point, not yours. As far as the "something better' reference, he is talking of the perfect bodies and perfect world that we will inhabit when Jesus returns.
Xander said:
"It is a lie to say a person is going to get judged as soon as they die."
Hey, I never said that! I don't, in fact, believe people will be judged until the Great White Throne, at the end! But that wasn't the issue...the issue was that when Christians die they are NOT with Jesus. Just FYI, the unbelievers are judged, Christians aren't, because we have the blood of Jesus covering us!
You then go on to accuse me of spite, and that you welcome learning. I think the problem here is that we both want to stand as a light for the truth, but we see it very differently. You deny that you belong to a 'christian cult' like the JW, the adventist etc, but when you outright deny the Trinity you simply and factually do NOT belong to mainline Christianity. I hesitate to say 'mainline' because I am fearfully aware of how many churches twist the truth. What I mean when I say this is the basic theology and doctrine as set down by apostolic leaders and church fathers. You say that you DO follow the Bible, that you DON'T misinterpret the Bible, but you know what, all those cults say the same thing. Out of interest, what do you think of the Reformation??
As for your comment that my last point is a lie and to prove it with Bible verses, I repeat:
Phil 1:23, 2 Cor 5:8, Rev 6:9
We see in these verses: That Paul writing the Bible under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit, believed that when he died he would be with the Lord, and
In Revelation, the vision John was shown of heaven, under the alter where the souls of believers. Hard for there to be souls of believers if no believers go to heaven, huh??
"I believe the truth of Jesus. I follow His commandments, keep His Sabbaths, Feast days. I don't sacrifice animals, Jesus was are final sacrifice. I read all the word, and believe all the word as truth. I don't believe in keeping pagan holidays such as Christmas( winter solstice), Easter( Goddess of futility), Sunday worship(Suns day of worship) All these are pagan beliefs."
This very paragraph tells me that again you have missed the point. Why do you suppose that Jesus died on the cross for us? Just so we didn't have to kill poor little animals anymore? God knew (and the old T certainly shows us) that man CANNOT keep the old laws. We are imperfect ergo it is impossible. Oh you may say that you follow the dietary laws to the T, but dude...do you wear tassels on your cloak...do you even wear a cloak? 613 laws that all need to be perfectly kept, to be a sinless being. God knew it could not be done by us, and so he offered us grace. Grace through our Lord Jesus Christ, who lived perfectly as we cannot, and died once to fulfil the law and redeem us. It is done and we are free to live not under the shadow of the law (which is what you are ultimately suggesting) but in the light of his mercy and love. Does this mean I dismiss things like the 10 commandments? How can I when the first two commandments tell me this: Have no other god before Me, and worship no idols. A wise man once noted that if we keep the first two, the other 8 should be a problem, as they stem out from idolatry and false religion. But if I still hold to the idea that eating pork will doom my soul, then I dismiss Jesus sacrifice, and worse I diminish it.
And as far as your 'pagan holidays' go, well, you think the Trinity is a pagan belief. How can you claim to love a God you deny? Oh sure, you claim the Bible doesn't support the Trinity, that it is never mentioned, but again, you fail to see what the Holy Spirit, who inspired the writing of the Bible, is telling us. How can you reconcile God the Father, God the Son and God the Holy Spirit with God Himself telling us there is only one God? Do you say He lies? Do you believe He has a personality disorder? Because quite frankly no matter what you claim, you are either doing just that or out right denying Him. When all the church fathers got together to discuss such things do you believe them wrong? If you do then you are by definition a heretic-
"anyone who does not conform to an established attitude, doctrine, or principle."
Christmas? Easter? I don't really care about where you think they come from. On Christmas I remember the joy and hope brought to us in Christs birth, and on Easter I remember and thank Jesus for not only dying for my sins, but for rising from the dead - giving us all hope of resurrection. Sunday is the day when we worship because it is the day when Jesus rose from the grave-signaling the new covenant. Matthew 28:1 "After the Sabbath, at dawn on the first day of the week..." This is Sunday, just so you know.
So really, is loving Jesus, remembering Jesus a sin? Does it break the 10 commandment? Nope. In which case your above paragraph is meaningless babble. Mark 7:6-7 And He said to them, "Well did Isaiah prophesy of you hypocrites, as it is written, "This people honors me with their lips, but their heart is far from me, in vain do they worship me, teaching as doctrines the commandments of men" '. You strive to keep alive what Jesus has made redundant.
Xander said:
"Paul said it best! Acts 24:[sup]14[/sup]But this I confess unto thee, that after the way which they call heresy, so worship I the God of my fathers, believing all things which are written in the law and in the prophets"
Once again you take things out of context. In this passage Paul is defending himself from charges of sedition. This verse is where he admits, yes, he is a Christian, one Jews would label a sect or heresy. But he goes on to say that still, he worships the God of the Jewish people. He is not suggesting to follow after false gods. This is the correct meaning of this passage...have you read the entirety of it? You cannot take this and say "See! Paul says we have to follow all the old laws". Do you even bother to read everything else Paul says about this??? I have seen many people give you verse after verse proving that Paul is a new covenant Christian, and you refuse to see it. This is your blindness, no one else's.
As far as your verses regarding Jesus on the cross, I had no seen that post. Time differences meant I thought you were still at work! But to answer you:
You say that when Jesus told the thief they would be in paradise together that very day, he was mistaken, as Jesus was in the ground for 3 days. Now, either Jesus was mistaken, He lied, or there is a valid reason. I have my opinion, like you, but I know Jesus can't lie, He's never mistaken, and so my reasoning is this. Jesus' earthly body lay in a tomb (the ground) for 3 days. Do you suppose that His soul was just...gone, asleep during this time? I don't believe so, I believe His soul or spirit if you want was someone...no doubt with the thief (as our Lord does not lie!!). Lets face it, the bible doesn't speak a lot of that time, and some pretty awesome things took place. Matthew 27:52 The tombs broke open and the bodies of many holy people who had died were raised to life. They came out of the tombs, and after Jesus' resurrection they went into the holy city and appeared to many people.
I mean, wow! And can anyone really know what this exactly means? Plenty of people have ideas and opinions, but when it comes down to it; God doesn't need us to know everything!
As far as Jesus telling the women not to touch Him because He hadn't ascended into heaven yet, what about when He told Thomas to touch Him? This was still before His ascension. So your idea here is moot. Plus my point was that the thief was with Jesus. And thats the point of this post, yeah? That people are/are not with God after they die? If the thief was, do you suppose he got left behind Jesus went up to heaven? I think not. And besides if we want to get into it, God is omnipresent, still is? Who knows where the dead are, but that doesn't mean God can't be with them, and they with Him? By saying "It has to be this way" is by reason limiting God, which is wrong. And also for your thoughts, if Christians don't go to be with Jesus as soon as they die, why does the NT keep talking of it? Phil 1:23, 2 Cor 5:8, Rev 6:9.
2 Cor 5:8 Yes, we are of good courage, and we would rather be away from the body and at home with the Lord
So yes, Jesus was the first to be given a resurrected body, the First fruits, but other passages indicate you're wrong.
Your last scriptures have absolutely no bearing on the argument. That entire passage talks of faith, and in fact those last verses talk of the better, new covenant under Jesus, which kinda proves my point, not yours. As far as the "something better' reference, he is talking of the perfect bodies and perfect world that we will inhabit when Jesus returns.
Xander said:
"It is a lie to say a person is going to get judged as soon as they die."
Hey, I never said that! I don't, in fact, believe people will be judged until the Great White Throne, at the end! But that wasn't the issue...the issue was that when Christians die they are NOT with Jesus. Just FYI, the unbelievers are judged, Christians aren't, because we have the blood of Jesus covering us!
You then go on to accuse me of spite, and that you welcome learning. I think the problem here is that we both want to stand as a light for the truth, but we see it very differently. You deny that you belong to a 'christian cult' like the JW, the adventist etc, but when you outright deny the Trinity you simply and factually do NOT belong to mainline Christianity. I hesitate to say 'mainline' because I am fearfully aware of how many churches twist the truth. What I mean when I say this is the basic theology and doctrine as set down by apostolic leaders and church fathers. You say that you DO follow the Bible, that you DON'T misinterpret the Bible, but you know what, all those cults say the same thing. Out of interest, what do you think of the Reformation??
As for your comment that my last point is a lie and to prove it with Bible verses, I repeat:
Phil 1:23, 2 Cor 5:8, Rev 6:9
We see in these verses: That Paul writing the Bible under the divine inspiration of the Holy Spirit, believed that when he died he would be with the Lord, and
In Revelation, the vision John was shown of heaven, under the alter where the souls of believers. Hard for there to be souls of believers if no believers go to heaven, huh??
Again, I can appreciate your view, but again, I must disagree.
As far as the three heavens, to make the first heaven the "earth," is easily cleared up.
Genesis 1 (KJV)
[sup]14[/sup]And God said, Let there be lights in the firmament of the heaven to divide the day from the night; and let them be for signs, and for seasons, and for days, and years:
[sup]15[/sup]And let them be for lights in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth: and it was so.
[sup]16[/sup]And God made two great lights; the greater light to rule the day, and the lesser light to rule the night: he made the stars also.
[sup]17[/sup]And God set them in the firmament of the heaven to give light upon the earth, [sup]18[/sup]And to rule over the day and over the night, and to divide the light from the darkness: and God saw that it was good.
We see the second heaven here...not the earth.
Genesis 1 (KJV)
[sup]20[/sup]And God said, Let the waters bring forth abundantly the moving creature that hath life, and fowl that may fly above the earth in the open firmament of heaven.
Here we see the first heaven...also not the earth, but that part of the atmosphere in which the birds fly, and ends where it meets the second heaven.
Sorry for the emboldening, I couldn't change it.
Revelation 4 (KJV)
[sup]1[/sup]After this I looked, and, behold, a door was opened in heaven: and the first voice which I heard was as it were of a trumpet talking with me; which said, Come up hither, and I will shew thee things which must be hereafter.
John was on the earth, and called up. To heaven, which was opened and illustrated by the door.
This is the third heaven to which Paul was caught up to.
We see a similar occurence here:
Revelation 11:11-12 (KJV)
[sup]11[/sup]And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them. [sup]12[/sup]And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
Surely you would not propose that the two witnesses are called from the earth, up to the...earth?
I do not have much time, and since you did not really respond to the previous post, at least, you did not address the content, but rather, took another trail, here are a few more things to consider.
As I pointed out, the living creatures say, "Come and see" for the first four seals, yet not for the fifth, and in the sixth, John himself says "I looked." The events have his attention at this point.
Notice what happens during these events.
Revelation 7:13-15 (KJV)
[sup]13[/sup]And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
[sup]14[/sup]And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb. [sup]15[/sup]Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.
On the earth?
Revelation 8
[sup]1[/sup]And when he had opened the seventh seal, there was silence in heaven about the space of half an hour.
[sup]2[/sup]And I saw the seven angels which stood before God; and to them were given seven trumpets.
[sup]3[/sup]And another angel came and stood at the altar, having a golden censer; and there was given unto him much incense, that he should offer it with the prayers of all saints upon the golden altar which was before the throne.
[sup]4[/sup]And the smoke of the incense, which came with the prayers of the saints, ascended up before God out of the angel's hand. [sup]5[/sup]And the angel took the censer, and filled it with fire of the altar, and cast it into the earth: and there were voices, and thunderings, and lightnings, and an earthquake.
Clearly these happenings take place in the third heaven, where John, and the two witnesses are called up to.
The censer is cast into the earth.
Revelation 11:19 (King James Version)
[sup]19[/sup]And the temple of God was opened in heaven, and there was seen in his temple the ark of his testament: and there were lightnings, and voices, and thunderings, and an earthquake, and great hail.
Is the temple opened the Church? We, being the temple of God in this world today, are used by some to spiritualize many passages.
Consider the witnesses: if they are men, they died, and did not go to the "grave," but were called up to heaven. How so if no-one rises until the Great White Throne?
Consider the twenty four elders, how are these angels, when we shall judge angels, rather than the other way around ? 1 Corinthians 6:3 (KJV).
And one of the most obvious problems with this scenario and position is this: your position claims that none are resurrected before the Great White Throne, yet, the tribulation martyrs, as well as the two witnesses...are not in the grave.
All I have time for this morning.
GTY
Ranger, first I would like to say, I appreciate this discussion. Now as far as the 24 elders, they are resurrected beings reigning with Christ. I never said they were angels. And the tribulation martyrs are also resurrected beings. That is why I said the great white throne judgment is on the earth. You do know Jesus, kingdom will be on the earth? And as far as the witnesses are concerned, they were not put in graves, Lets read what happen when they were called to heaven,
Rev 11:[sup]3[/sup]And I will give power unto my two witnesses, and they shall prophesy a thousand two hundred and threescore days, clothed in sackcloth.
[sup]7[/sup]And when they shall have finished their testimony, the beast that ascendeth out of the bottomless pit shall make war against them, and shall overcome them, and kill them. [sup]8[/sup]And their dead bodies shall lie in the street of the great city, which spiritually is called Sodom and Egypt, where also our Lord was crucified.
[sup]11[/sup]And after three days and an half the spirit of life from God entered into them, and they stood upon their feet; and great fear fell upon them which saw them.
[sup]12[/sup]And they heard a great voice from heaven saying unto them, Come up hither. And they ascended up to heaven in a cloud; and their enemies beheld them.
[sup]13[/sup]And the same hour was there a great earthquake, and the tenth part of the city fell, and in the earthquake were slain of men seven thousand: and the remnant were affrighted, and gave glory to the God of heaven.
[sup]14[/sup]The second woe is past; and, behold, the third woe cometh quickly.
[sup]15[/sup]And the seventh angel sounded; and there were great voices in heaven, saying, The kingdoms of this world are become the kingdoms of our Lord, and of his Christ; and he shall reign for ever and ever.
So the witnesses bodies were in in the streets, not put in a grave. The breath of life from God entered into them they were called, but they were not the only to be called look at verse 15, the seventh angel sounded. The last trump was blown. What happens when the last trump is blown? 1Cor. 15:[sup]52[/sup]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed. The same thing here! 1 Thess. 4:[sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first: [sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord. This is what happened to the witnesses, and all those worthy to be resurrected. But where did they go? Back to heaven?
Zech 14: [sup]3[/sup]Then shall the LORD go forth, and fight against those nations, as when he fought in the day of battle.( We can see this is future!)
[sup]4[/sup]And his feet shall stand in that day upon the mount of Olives, which is before Jerusalem on the east, and the mount of Olives shall cleave in the midst thereof toward the east and toward the west, and there shall be a very great valley; and half of the mountain shall remove toward the north, and half of it toward the south.
(His feet standing on the mount of olives was told by the angels in Act 1:9-12)
[sup]5[/sup]And ye shall flee to the valley of the mountains; for the valley of the mountains shall reach unto Azal: yea, ye shall flee, like as ye fled from before the earthquake in the days of Uzziah king of Judah: and the LORD my God shall come, and all the saints with thee.( The Lord is going to come, and all the saints with Him.) When Jesus makes His descent, the trumpet will be blown, the resurrection will occur, then Jesus with the resurrected saint will come back to this earth! No one is going back to heaven, when He returns. The heaven the two witnesses went to was the same heaven as when Elijah got caught up. This was not the 3rd heaven. And by the way Paul never got taken to the 3rd heaven. He was speaking of Jesus.
Hey, Rach I thank God I'm not part of the main line Christianity. It is truly corrupted with false doctrine. You can keep all those pagan holidays if you wish. Paganism is paganism, You can remember what you wish on this days. These pagan beliefs were mingled in with true Christianity in the 4th century. And as for Sunday, that is just nonsense. You can read through out the scriptures, and it talks about the observance of the Sabbath. That is another false doctrine that originated in the 4th century, by Constantine a Roman ruler. Look it up! You can find it in any encyclopedia. Just tell me why Jesus says in Matthew 7: [sup]21[/sup]Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven. [sup]22[/sup]Many will say to me in that day, Lord, Lord, have we not prophesied in thy name? and in thy name have cast out devils? and in thy name done many wonderful works?
[sup]23[/sup]And then will I profess unto them, I never knew you: depart from me, ye that work iniquity.
These people were so called Christians. They prophesied in His name, did many wonderful works in His name. He will answer I never knew them! This will be a very terrible, and sad time. This is why Matthew 7:[sup]13[/sup]Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
[sup]14[/sup]Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
Pay attention to this Rach, broad is the way to destruction. So just because you go with the main stream Christianity, keeping all those pagan belief as you have clearly confessed. Doesn't mean you are correct. Straight, and narrow is the way, and few find it. So like I said previously, if you are here to contradict me out of spite, without even reading previous post. I will no longer respond to your post if that is what your doing. If you wish to discuss the word in a brotherly fashion, I don't mind. If not, then I'm sure you'll speak evil of the truth being given. The word spoke about that to! 2 Peter 2:[sup]1[/sup]But there were false prophets also among the people, even as there shall be false teachers among you, who privily shall bring in damnable heresies, even denying the Lord that bought them, and bring upon themselves swift destruction. [sup]2[/sup]And many shall follow their pernicious ways; by reason of whom the way of truth shall be evil spoken of. So Continue if you must speaking evil toward what I believe, Sabbath keeper, Law keeper, Bible follower. That is who I am. That is what I believe. Everything that come out of the book.
Oddly enough, I am on a city computer right now, and have about 2 minutes...so, here goes.
We still have to consider that the two witnesses are alive, die, and then go to heaven.
The GWT takes place after the Millennial reign, so we see first the two witnesses going to heaven before His return, as well as the souls under the altar, the tribulation martyrs, in heaven...before the Great White Throne.
That shows those who have died being "alive," rather than in the grave.
I would ask you to explain in better detail what you mean by,
Are you saying that this "heaven" was the earth, meaning, the grave?
Sorry, I usually don't like to do quick responses, but, waiting here in city hall, a computer available...I couldn't resist.
GTY
I thought I was clear about the two witnesses. Did you read the post? The witnesses got called at the same time as the rest of the ones worthy to be resurrected during the first resurrection.
Can you go over my responses, and try to understand. I have been pretty clear through out the thread. Before I go over this again, I need to know if you are reading my answers.
I'm sorry, I was under the impression you read the post I wrote about the word heaven's meaning in the scripture, the earth , the sky, and 3rd heaven. To answer your question, Elijah went to the sky(heaven), and so did the witnesses.
One more thing Ranger, What is your point? What is the message you are trying to get across? I have clearly stated my message, that the when a man dies, they go to the grave. They stay there until they are called from either the first resurrection or the second resurrection. The spirit that returns to God is the breath of life. You first stated the people in the old testament didn't know much of the resurrection. I proved your error showing Job's understanding in Job 14. You then stated the people in Jesus time didn't understand what Jesus meant when He stated in John 6: 39, 40, 44, 54, about raising people up the last day. I then showed you they did, by showing what Martha said about Lazarus in John 11:[sup]23[/sup]Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again. [sup]24[/sup]Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.
How many times do I have to show you the truth, before you believe? It seems you get corrected, then you try to bring up something else to contradict what i have shown. I have corrected you more than once. Are we not here to learn from one another. Proverbs 15:[sup]31[/sup]The ear that heareth the reproof of life abideth among the wise.[sup]32[/sup]He that refuseth instruction despiseth his own soul: but he that heareth reproof getteth understanding. I hope we can learn if someone reproofs us in the truth. I have learn many things in my walk, because I was reproofed and was corrected. If it weren't so, I wouldn't of been able to see the truth. I use to believe the same as others on this forum, but I got corrected, and I thank God for my correction. So I ask Ranger, what are you here for?
At what point did God EVER say His laws must be kept perfectly?
Answer...
Never!!!
Now getting back to the lesson.....
What does any of what you are posting have to do with the fact that Jesus is the ONLY "...first born from the dead"?
.
You still deny the scriptures.
[sup]22[/sup] But you have come to Mount Zion, to the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem.
We have come to the HEAVENLY JERUSALEM. WHERE GOD IS.
You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,
Still heaven---where the thousands upon thousands of angels are.
[sup]23[/sup] to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven.
Still heaven---where the names are written.
You have come to God, the Judge of all, to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
Still heaven---where God is. Oh and look, "the spirits of the righteous made perfect,"
[sup]24[/sup] to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.
Still heaven---where Jesus is.
You deny the scriptures. Even the Pharisees acknowledge that there are spirits.
Xander said:
"So Continue if you must speaking evil toward what I believe, Sabbath keeper, Law keeper, Bible follower. That is who I am. That is what I believe. Everything that come out of the book."
This is who you are? Exactly. Everything you claim to be is religious. Just like the Pharisees, and we know how Jesus felt about them. You think I'm evil? You think I'm pagan and hell bound? Would you like to know how I sum myself up? Who I say I am? I LOVE Jesus. Every day I am overwhelmed with awe and gratitude and love over what the God of the universe has done for me. The more I learn, from scripture, from doctrine and theology, the more I understand the more I love! I will never understand even a fraction of what there is to know, but what I know now is that I will keep loving, keep trusting and keep growing in faith until I see my Lord face to face.
You believe that every person professing to be a Christian in mainline Christianity is in fact a pagan? A false believer?? This is an unbelievable and ignorant claim...only God can know the hearts of men. I call you heretic based on your self confessed belief that the Trinity is fiction. The fact that you speak more of following the old laws then you do of what Jesus actually said means you are an unbending, legalistic Pharisee. These are things you admit to in your posts.
You accuse others of never replying with scripture, which is just plain fallacy. When you do admit to verses being shown to you, you inevitably twist them to your own meaning, disregarding the rest of the passage and what that passage is ultimately talking about. You accuse others of never answering your questions, which is another fallacy, and frankly hypocritical as you yourself never answer our questions, you turn them aside by accusing us of attacking you. From what I see of your posts, and I do read them, you are NOT here to discuss and learn, you see this as your own forum to show unbelievers there errors.
You want to stop arguing with me? That is fine as this is giving me grief as well, but you need to know that when I see you posting such outright wrong doctrine I cannot let it just lie there uncorrected. To many Christians don't want to make waves and let things slide. We need to stand up against false doctrine and preach the love and forgiveness of Christ. You believe mainline Christianity has degenerated? This happens when we don't stand up to people who believe their doctrine is better then the message that Jesus brought.
"So Continue if you must speaking evil toward what I believe, Sabbath keeper, Law keeper, Bible follower. That is who I am. That is what I believe. Everything that come out of the book."
This is who you are? Exactly. Everything you claim to be is religious. Just like the Pharisees, and we know how Jesus felt about them. You think I'm evil? You think I'm pagan and hell bound? Would you like to know how I sum myself up? Who I say I am? I LOVE Jesus. Every day I am overwhelmed with awe and gratitude and love over what the God of the universe has done for me. The more I learn, from scripture, from doctrine and theology, the more I understand the more I love! I will never understand even a fraction of what there is to know, but what I know now is that I will keep loving, keep trusting and keep growing in faith until I see my Lord face to face.
You believe that every person professing to be a Christian in mainline Christianity is in fact a pagan? A false believer?? This is an unbelievable and ignorant claim...only God can know the hearts of men. I call you heretic based on your self confessed belief that the Trinity is fiction. The fact that you speak more of following the old laws then you do of what Jesus actually said means you are an unbending, legalistic Pharisee. These are things you admit to in your posts.
You accuse others of never replying with scripture, which is just plain fallacy. When you do admit to verses being shown to you, you inevitably twist them to your own meaning, disregarding the rest of the passage and what that passage is ultimately talking about. You accuse others of never answering your questions, which is another fallacy, and frankly hypocritical as you yourself never answer our questions, you turn them aside by accusing us of attacking you. From what I see of your posts, and I do read them, you are NOT here to discuss and learn, you see this as your own forum to show unbelievers there errors.
You want to stop arguing with me? That is fine as this is giving me grief as well, but you need to know that when I see you posting such outright wrong doctrine I cannot let it just lie there uncorrected. To many Christians don't want to make waves and let things slide. We need to stand up against false doctrine and preach the love and forgiveness of Christ. You believe mainline Christianity has degenerated? This happens when we don't stand up to people who believe their doctrine is better then the message that Jesus brought.
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