Jesus Christ Is The Only “…first Born From The Dead.”

[Eccl.12:13]

There are some that believe those that die in “good favor” or with a “good report“ with God immediately go to be with Him at the moment of their death. To them I have this question, “Just how did that work for Lazarus, or any of the others that were born, died, was brought back to life AND died again; whether in the OT or NT?”

Let’s think about it for a moment……let's see if it makes sense!




They were ALL born flesh and blood, BUT.......

When they died they became a "spirit being"; something they HAD to become to be in the presence of God, “…Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption…” THEN......

God put them BACK into a corruptible flesh and blood body to bring them back to life, to live hear on earth just to die again, THEN.......

They went back to being a "spirit being" when they died the SECOND time?

Think about it…..what was once a corruptible body was made perfect when they died. Then it was made a corruptible body again, just to be made perfect again? Does that make sense?

Now if the above is true, how is it that the scriptures says that Christ is the firstborn from the dead? Let’s read it…..

Rom.8
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col.1
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

It would seem that whoever was the first that was raised from the dead should claim that title before Christ, but yet the scriptures says that Christ was the first born of many brethren.

Something just does not add up here, UNLESS........

Christ did something that was DIFFERENT from ALL of those others that was raised from the dead or have died with a good report!!!

Jesus resurrection HAD to be different!!!!!

Let’s read about some saints that ALL died with a good report but are yet waiting for the promise of eternal life…..

　

Heb.11
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



And just who were these saints that died with a good report but have NOT received the promise of eternal life and their incorruptable bodies? Let’s read a few names Paul mentions……

Abel, Enoch, Noah, Abraham, Sara, Isaac, Jacob, Joseph, Moses, Rahab, Gedeon, Sampson, Jephthae, David, Samuel, and of the prophets…..just to name a few.

Now let’s read if any of the above received the promise of eternal life. Let‘s read if ANY of those that died with a “good report“ have yet received their immortal, or incorruptible bodies. Again let’s read Heb.11:39-40.

Heb.11
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

Now before going any further let’s again go over just a few names Paul said…..

ENOCH, ABRAHAM and MOSES!

Now why did I single these out? Because I know there are those that will TRY to use these names to justify what THEY think is the truth! Let’s look at each one.




ENOCH - There are those that will say, “But the bible says, “…Enoch walked with God: and he was not; for God took him.”, so doesn’t that mean he is has his immortal body? Well, let’s read what Paul said about the statement above AND about Enoch’s current state.



Heb.11:[5] By faith Enoch was translated that he should not see death; and was not found, because God had translated him: for before his translation he had this testimony, that he pleased God.

So Paul knew the story of Enoch and how he was translated and that God took him. But what did Paul say next? Let’s read it again…

Heb.11[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

So NO!!! Enoch does NOT have an immortal or incorruptible body yet. Do I know where Enoch is? Of course not! But I do know what Paul just told us. Next…

　

ABRAHAM - There are those that will say, “But didn’t Jesus say, ‘…that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom…’. Doesn’t that mean Abraham is now with the Lord?”

Let’s first find out what type of story Jesus was telling.

Mark 4
[2] And he taught them many things by parables, and said unto them in his doctrine,
[33] And with many such parables spake he the word unto them, as they were able to hear it.
[34] But without a parable spake he not unto them: and when they were alone, he expounded all things to his disciples.

So we understand that Jesus TAUGHT by parables. Jesus used parables as tools to convey His doctrine. And we find that Jesus ONLY used parables when He spoke around those other than His disciples. Now let’s find if the story of the beggar and Abraham was a parable or not.

To find if the story Jesus told was a parable we must go to the previous chapter; Luke 15. Let’s read…


Luke 15
[1] Then drew near unto him all the publicans and sinners for to hear him.
[2] And the Pharisees and scribes murmured, saying, This man receiveth sinners, and eateth with them.
[3] And he spake this parable unto them, saying,



So we know who was around listening to Jesus. Now let’s go into the next chapter….



Luke 16
[1] And he said also unto his disciples, There was a certain rich man, which had a steward; and the same was accused unto him that he had wasted his goods.


We find Jesus is STILL talking in parables. Now let’s read who ELSE was there listening….

[14] And the Pharisees also, who were covetous, heard all these things: and they derided him.


Now let’s read His next LESSON…..



[19] There was a certain rich man, which was clothed in purple and fine linen, and fared sumptuously every day:
[20] And there was a certain beggar named Lazarus, which was laid at his gate, full of sores,



So there we have it. Jesus ONLY spoke in parables when there were others around listening to Him speak. The story of the beggar and Abraham was just that…A STORY!!

And besides, Paul tells us, “…And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

So NO!! Abraham does NOT have an immortal or incorruptible body yet. Next…..




MOSES - And finally there are some that will say, “But didn’t Moses appear with Jesus?” Well let’s read that account.

Matt.17
[1] And after six days Jesus taketh Peter, James, and John his brother, and bringeth them up into an high mountain apart,
[2] And was transfigured before them: and his face did shine as the sun, and his raiment was white as the light.
[3] And, behold, there appeared unto them Moses and Elias talking with him.


So yes! Moses did appeared with Jesus. But was it real? Let’s read….

[9] And as they came down from the mountain, Jesus charged them, saying, Tell the vision to no man, until the Son of man be risen again from the dead.


Jesus said, “…Tell the VISION to no man…”. So what the apostles saw was simply a vision. Just as Paul, John and many others throughout the entire bible have had.

And again we have the writings of Paul telling us…“…And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:”

So NO!!! Moses does NOT have an immortal or incorruptible body either!!




And last, but not least, we have the “Other” scripture that will try to be used to get loved ones with the Lord…

2 Cor.5
[8] We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


Now why is it no one ever reads the next verse? WHEN will we be present with the Lord? Let’s read it…



[10] For we must all appear before the judgment seat of Christ; that every one may receive the things done in his body, according to that he hath done, whether it be good or bad.



First we ALL must appear before the judgment seat. Now does that happen in a corruptible body? NO! That happens when we have a perfect body

And when will we become perfect or incorruptible (not capable of DYING)?

At the same time Paul and ALL the other saints that died with a good report get theirs….


1 Cor.15
[52] In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.
[53] For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
[54] So when this corruptible shall have put on incorruption, and this mortal shall have put on immortality, then shall be brought to pass the saying that is written, Death is swallowed up in victory.
[55] O death, where is thy sting? O grave, where is thy victory?


Was death swallowed up when the saints died? Was death swallowed up when loved ones died?



Death was NOT swallowed up or ended when Lazarus or ANY others were brought back to life, for ALL of them had to die again. Nor were any that died with a good report given an eternal, incorruptible, immortal, perfect body.

But when Jesus was raised from the dead he was given a "spirit body", an “immortal body”, an “incorruptible body”, one that would NOT return to being flesh and blood!

Jesus received something NO flesh and blood body has EVER received!!!

This is why the scriptures are correct when they say;

Rom.8
[29] For whom he did foreknow, he also did predestinate to be conformed to the image of his Son, that he might be the firstborn among many brethren.

Col.1
[15] Who is the image of the invisible God, the firstborn of every creature:
[18] And he is the head of the body, the church: who is the beginning, the firstborn from the dead; that in all things he might have the preeminence.

Jesus resurrection WAS different!!!

　

JESUS CHRIST.......THE ONLY "FIRST BORN from the dead"!!!!

　

.

 

[Anastacia]

Jesus was the firstborn from the dead to have a glorified body... The body Jesus went to heaven with was not a flesh and blood body like we have on earth. At the resurrection, when we are raised from the dead, we will not be raised with the same kind of earthly bodies we have now. So you see how you are mistaken about calling Lazarus and others firstborn before Jesus?

“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).

You said: "Now let’s read if any of the above received the promise of eternal life. Let‘s read if ANY of those that died with a “good report“ have yet received their immortal, or incorruptible bodies."

Again, we will not receive incorruptible bodies until the ressurection from the dead.

You quote Hebrews 11:39-40... These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

I think that you are misunderstanding what it means. Everyone of the Old Testament prophets and the other righteous are not made perfect until Jesus Christ has been revealed. Jesus was not revealed until the New Testament. We are made perfect through our faith in Jesus Christ.

You also claim that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was not real but some kind of made up fiction. But even parables told by Jesus were realistic.
When Lazarus went to Abraham after death, this is not the heaven believers go to now.

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[sup] [/sup](What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

You bring up Jesus' transfiguration in Matthew 17 and claim it as if it is just some kind of illusion. "Vision" does not support your beliefs of it being an illusion that Moses and Elijah appeared before them. And please note that not all Bible versions say "vision" anyway, which shows too that you are misunderstanding the word "vision" in that passage.

Since you don't believe we have a spirit that lives on after our physical body dies...then you do not fully understand the power of God and the life changing that goes on when a believer is saved and born again. How do you believe in the Spirit giving life to the spirit, if only to result in death?

Scriptures for you to study more carefully...

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.


Now here is a scripture that should make you never question again if believers go to heaven after they die...
See in Hebrews 12:23, Paul speaks about the spirits of righteous men being made perfect, the righteous men and prophets of the Old Testament. The spirits of righteous men are made perfect by Jesus Christ. If our spirits cease to exist, or are conscious of nothing, then how can they be made perfect by their faith in Jesus Christ? Also note where this scripture says the spirits of the righteous men made perfect are....in heaven!

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect

I hope this helps.

God bless.

 

[Xanderoc]

Jesus was the firstborn from the dead to have a glorified body... The body Jesus went to heaven with was not a flesh and blood body like we have on earth. At the resurrection, when we are raised from the dead, we will not be raised with the same kind of earthly bodies we have now. So you see how you are mistaken about calling Lazarus and others firstborn before Jesus?

“So also is the resurrection of the dead. It is sown a perishable body, it is raised an imperishable body; it is sown in dishonor, it is raised in glory; it is sown in weakness, it is raised in power; it is sown a natural body, it is raised a spiritual body. If there is a natural body, there is also a spiritual body” (1 Corinthians 15:42-44).

You said: "Now let’s read if any of the above received the promise of eternal life. Let‘s read if ANY of those that died with a “good report“ have yet received their immortal, or incorruptible bodies."

Again, we will not receive incorruptible bodies until the ressurection from the dead.

You quote Hebrews 11:39-40... These were all commended for their faith, yet none of them received what had been promised. God had planned something better for us so that only together with us would they be made perfect.

I think that you are misunderstanding what it means. Everyone of the Old Testament prophets and the other righteous are not made perfect until Jesus Christ has been revealed. Jesus was not revealed until the New Testament. We are made perfect through our faith in Jesus Christ.

You also claim that the story of Lazarus and the rich man was not real but some kind of made up fiction. But even parables told by Jesus were realistic.
When Lazarus went to Abraham after death, this is not the heaven believers go to now.

Ephesians 4:8-10
This is why it says:
"When he ascended on high,
he led captives in his train
and gave gifts to men."[sup] [/sup](What does "he ascended" mean except that he also descended to the lower, earthly regions? He who descended is the very one who ascended higher than all the heavens, in order to fill the whole universe.)

You bring up Jesus' transfiguration in Matthew 17 and claim it as if it is just some kind of illusion. "Vision" does not support your beliefs of it being an illusion that Moses and Elijah appeared before them. And please note that not all Bible versions say "vision" anyway, which shows too that you are misunderstanding the word "vision" in that passage.

Since you don't believe we have a spirit that lives on after our physical body dies...then you do not fully understand the power of God and the life changing that goes on when a believer is saved and born again. How do you believe in the Spirit giving life to the spirit, if only to result in death?

Scriptures for you to study more carefully...

John 8:56 Your father Abraham rejoiced at the thought of seeing my day; he saw it and was glad."

Luke 20:38 He is not the God of the dead, but of the living, for to him all are alive."

John 3:6 Flesh gives birth to flesh, but the Spirit gives birth to spirit.


Now here is a scripture that should make you never question again if believers go to heaven after they die...
See in Hebrews 12:23, Paul speaks about the spirits of righteous men being made perfect, the righteous men and prophets of the Old Testament. The spirits of righteous men are made perfect by Jesus Christ. If our spirits cease to exist, or are conscious of nothing, then how can they be made perfect by their faith in Jesus Christ? Also note where this scripture says the spirits of the righteous men made perfect are....in heaven!

Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect

I hope this helps.

God bless.

"Also note where this scripture says the spirits of the righteous men made perfect are....in heaven!" Where did it say spirits of righteous men made perfect in heaven? Hebrews 12:[sup]22[/sup]But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels, [sup]23[/sup]To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect, KJV


Hebrews 12:[sup]22[/sup]But you have come to[sup](A)[/sup] Mount Zion and to the city of the living God,[sup](B)[/sup] the heavenly Jerusalem, and to[sup](C)[/sup] innumerable angels in festal gathering, [sup]23[/sup]and to[sup](D)[/sup] the assembly[sup][a][/sup] of the firstborn who are[sup](E)[/sup] enrolled in heaven, and to[sup](F)[/sup] God, the judge of all, and to the spirits of the righteous made perfect,
All the verse stated the names were written in heaven. That's ALL NO NEED TO INTERPRET!

 

[Anastacia]

Xander said: "Where did it say spirits of righteous men made perfect in heaven?"


God lives in heaven. Jesus lives in heaven. The angels live in heaven. Study more carefully Hebrews 12:22-24. Hebrews 12:22 tells us plainly that we have come to the heavenly Jersusalem.

Hebrews 12:22 But you have come to Mount Zion, to the heavenly Jerusalem, the city of the living God. You have come to thousands upon thousands of angels in joyful assembly,

[sup]23[/sup]to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect, [sup]24[/sup]to Jesus the mediator of a new covenant, and to the sprinkled blood that speaks a better word than the blood of Abel.

 

[Eccl.12:13]

Rev. 21
[1] And I saw a new heaven and a new earth: for the first heaven and the first earth were passed away; and there was no more sea.
[2] And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.
[3] And I heard a great voice out of heaven saying, Behold, the tabernacle of God is with men, and he will dwell with them, and they shall be his people, and God himself shall be with them, and be their God.
[10] And he carried me away in the spirit to a great and high mountain, and shewed me that great city, the holy Jerusalem, descending out of heaven from God,

This event does not happen until ALL is finished! God the Father will have NO dealings with man until Christ has removed ALL enemies.

What most do not understand is that their are TWO kingdoms; One kingdom of Jesus Christ, which He will set up here on this earth and rule for 1000yrs. Then there is the Father's kingdom; the one spoken of above in Rev.21! This kingdom, with the holy city Jerusalem, does not arrive until AFTER all is complete by Jesus Christ!

Man will worship Christ at Jerusalem during His 1000yr rule and then worship the Father, at New Jerusalem, forever!

Just as the scriptures states; no one is in heaven with the Father other than those that were there in the beginning; that means there is only Jesus and the angels that did not follow Satan! No one has received their spirit bodies yet! No one has been made perfect yet! No one has gone from flesh and blood body to a spirit being other that Christ!

Think about it!

If Moses and Elias have, in fact, received their spirit bodies why would Paul say the following;

Heb.11
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

And who was it that Paul said have not been made perfect? Let's read.....


[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

And....

[32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:


So tell me....Did Christ give Moses and Elias their perfect bodies just to show the apostles and then took their bodies away by the time Paul made his statement? Because Paul said not ONE of the saints have been made perfect. Not only have they not been made perfect, but Paul goes on to say they WILL not be made perfect without HIM!

So that means they could NOT have been given their spirit bodies at the time the apostles saw them on the mount with Jesus!

So if it was not their spirit bodies the apostles saw, what was it? Jesus tells us......

"...Tell the vision to no man..."


.

 

[Anastacia]

So if it was not their spirit bodies the apostles saw, what was it? Jesus tells us......

"...Tell the vision to no man..."

.

I've already explained all that to you about some versions calling it a "vision." Please consider more carefully all the scriptures I gave. Also, you are not acknowledging that there is a difference between "spirit" and "spirit bodies." You are denying God's word, Hebrews 12:23 says the spirits of righteous men made perfect are in heaven, and that is where we go, to heaven, when we come to God through Jesus Christ.

 

[Xanderoc]

I've already explained all that to you about some versions calling it a "vision." Please consider more carefully all the scriptures I gave. Also, you are not acknowledging that there is a difference between "spirit" and "spirit bodies." You are denying God's word, Hebrews 12:23 says the spirits of righteous men made perfect are in heaven, and that is where we go, to heaven, when we come to God through Jesus Christ.

So tell me exactly when are we suppose to be in heaven? Pay close attention to the scriptures I will provide. Proving otherwise!
John 5:
[sup]24[/sup]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [sup]25[/sup]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

[sup]26[/sup]For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

[sup]27[/sup]And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

[sup]28[/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

[sup]29[/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now its says all that are in the graves! Now we will hear from Jesus when He will raise them from their graves. NOT HEAVEN.

John 6:[sup]38[/sup]For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

[sup]39[/sup]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[sup]
40[/sup]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[sup]44[/sup]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

How many times will the Lord have to say it. Lets continue....

1 Cor. 15:
[sup]20[/sup]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Slept where? In their graves!
[sup]
21[/sup]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[sup]22[/sup]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[sup]23[/sup]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


So when is the ressurection of the dead? At Christ coming. No one is going to heaven! If everyone is in heaven or hell, then why does the scripture say this about those going to be punished?

2 Peter 2:[sup]9[/sup]The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Explain why would Peter say reserve the unjust til the day of judgment to be punished? I believe you should truly study the scripture before telling anyone they are going to heaven. Or that there are people being burned in hell. That is a false doctrine!

2 Cor.15:[sup]34[/sup]Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

[sup]35[/sup]But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

[sup]44[/sup]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

[sup]45[/sup]And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

[sup]46[/sup]Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

[sup]47[/sup]The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

[sup]48[/sup]As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

[sup]49[/sup]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

[sup]50[/sup]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[sup]51[/sup]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[sup]52[/sup]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trumpet when Christ returns, then the resurrection of the dead, and the changing of the body shall come. Even Job, Isaiah,and David knew about this!

Job 14:
[sup]10[/sup]But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

[sup]11[/sup]As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

[sup]12[/sup]So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Now did you just read what I read? "So man lieth down, and riseth not" No one is rising to heaven!! Now read the next verse.

[sup]13[/sup]O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job knew there was a set time, and he also knew about the change that would come!

[sup]14[/sup]If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

[sup]15[/sup]Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

vs 15 says it clear. He will call and Job will answer from the grave!

Isaiah 26:
[sup]19[/sup]Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


Isaiah said ye that dwell in the dust! He said the earth shall cast out the dead. Last verse!

Rev 20:
[sup]11[/sup]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

[sup]12[/sup]And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[sup]13[/sup]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Now if the righteous people or unjust people were in heaven or hell. Why would the earth have to give up the dead that was in it? No one is in heaven or hell. All are in the graves until the resurrections.

 

[Anastacia]

Xander, Before Jesus came, people died and went to Hades or Abraham's bosom. After Jesus was crucified, he preached to the spirits who had been separated from God in the spirit world. After Jesus ascended to heaven, spirits of the righteous were able to go to heaven.
Some spirits wait in Hades till the resurrection, then go from Hades to the lake of fire. Believer's spirits will be united with a body at the resurrection, then we will meet the Lord in the air to be with the Lord forever.

You seem to have an impossible time understanding that there are spirits. Even the Pharisees believed that there are spirits.

 

[Xanderoc]

Xander, Before Jesus came, people died and went to Hades or Abraham's bosom. After Jesus was crucified, he preached to the spirits who had been separated from God in the spirit world. After Jesus ascended to heaven, spirits of the righteous were able to go to heaven.
Some spirits wait in Hades till the resurrection, then go from Hades to the lake of fire. Believer's spirits will be united with a body at the resurrection, then we will meet the Lord in the air to be with the Lord forever.

You seem to have an impossible time understanding that there are spirits. Even the Pharisees believed that there are spirits.

No, I fully understand there are spirits, and the different meaning of the word spirit in the scripture. And as for the word "spirit" in the Bible it is use inner changeably. God uses the word spirit to speak of his angels. God uses the word spirit to speak of the breath of life. God uses the word spirit to speak of His words. Now that I made this statement let me back it up with scripture.
1.) God uses the word "spirit" to speak of his angels.

Isaiah 63 :[sup]7[/sup]I will mention the lovingkindnesses of the LORD, and the praises of the LORD, according to all that the LORD hath bestowed on us, and the great goodness toward the house of Israel, which he hath bestowed on them according to his mercies, and according to the multitude of his lovingkindnesses. [sup]8[/sup]For he said, Surely they are my people, children that will not lie: so he was their Saviour.

[sup]9[/sup]In all their affliction he was afflicted, and the angel of his presence saved them: in his love and in his pity he redeemed them; and he bare them, and carried them all the days of old.

[sup]10[/sup]But they rebelled, and vexed his holy Spirit: therefore he was turned to be their enemy, and he fought against them.


Here it is saying they vexed his holy spirit (the angel) Not God!

Another example in the New Testament.

Acts8:[sup]26[/sup]And the angel of the Lord spake unto Philip, saying, Arise, and go toward the south unto the way that goeth down from Jerusalem unto Gaza, which is desert.

[sup]27[/sup]And he arose and went: and, behold, a man of Ethiopia, an eunuch of great authority under Candace queen of the Ethiopians, who had the charge of all her treasure, and had come to Jerusalem for to worship,

[sup]28[/sup]Was returning, and sitting in his chariot read Esaias the prophet.

[sup]29[/sup]Then the Spirit said unto Philip, Go near, and join thyself to this chariot.


First the angel of the Lord spoke to Philip, then the Spirit said to Philip. This angel and Spirit are one and the same. Why would the angel have to tell Philip anything, if the Spirit inside of him could of told him. Lets read with some understanding. Let continue to verse to vs 39 [sup]39[/sup]And when they were come up out of the water, the Spirit of the Lord caught away Philip, that the eunuch saw him no more: and he went on his way rejoicing. What spirit of the Lord? The angel who spoke to Philip from the beginning was consider the spirit of the Lord. Or did the angel start the conversation, and God the Holy Ghost finished it? Again read with an open a clear view of the scriptures. If you read the scriptures with a preconceived notion. You can see what ever you want to see.

2.) God uses the word "spirit" to speak of the breath of life

Lets start at Genesis

Genesis 2:[sup]7[/sup]And the LORD God formed man of the dust of the ground, and breathed into his nostrils the breath of life; and man became a living soul.


God breathed into his nostrils the breath of life. Remember that.

Job 27:[sup]2[/sup]As God liveth, who hath taken away my judgment; and the Almighty, who hath vexed my soul;

[sup]3[/sup]All the while my breath is in me, and the spirit of God is in my nostrils; Moses said spirit in nostrils. Job called it spirit of God in his nostrils.



3.)God uses the word "spirit" to speak of His words.


John 6:


[sup]60[/sup]Many therefore of his disciples, when they had heard this, said, This is an hard saying; who can hear it?

[sup]61[/sup]When Jesus knew in himself that his disciples murmured at it, he said unto them, Doth this offend you?

[sup]62[/sup]What and if ye shall see the Son of man ascend up where he was before?

[sup]63[/sup]It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life

Jesus Himself said that His words were spirit and they are life. So lets put all together. God's word is spirit, and holy = Holy Spirit .... So when you read, and accept this holy word, you get understanding, and are full of His Holy Spirit.
God's holy angel = God's Holy Spirit. Angels are ministering spirits.
Heb. 1: [sup]13[/sup]But to which of the angels said he at any time, Sit on my right hand, until I make thine enemies thy footstool?[sup]14[/sup]Are they not all ministering spirits, sent forth to minister for them who shall be heirs of salvation?
And finally when a man dies, His (God's) spirit in the nostrils goes back to God who gave it.
Eccl. 1:[sup]7[/sup]Then shall the dust return to the earth as it was: and the spirit shall return unto God who gave it. His spirit or (breath of life) return back to God who gave it.
There is No One in heaven. Except for God, and the angels. As for this statement you made "Believer's spirits will be united with a body at the resurrection, then we will meet the Lord in the air to be with the Lord forever". What spirit are you talking about? Man is a soul! With the breath of life(spirit of God) in him. The (soul) or body returns to the earth, and the spirit(breath of life) goes back to God. Again you are the one who is in error. Prove to me out of the scriptures man is sent to hell or heaven when they died. By the way, Hades as you say, is just the grave. Unless you believe in Greek mythology! Lets reason in the scriptures, and make sense out of it. I proved to you in my last post about the people dying and going to the grave. Job said it best Job 14:[sup]12[/sup]So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Why is it hard for you to see it?

 

[Anastacia]

There is No One in heaven. Except for God, and the angels. As for this statement you made "Believer's spirits will be united with a body at the resurrection, then we will meet the Lord in the air to be with the Lord forever". What spirit are you talking about? Man is a soul! With the breath of life(spirit of God) in him. The (soul) or body returns to the earth, and the spirit(breath of life) goes back to God. Again you are the one who is in error. Prove to me out of the scriptures man is sent to hell or heaven when they died. By the way, Hades as you say, is just the grave. Unless you believe in Greek mythology! Lets reason in the scriptures, and make sense out of it. I proved to you in my last post about the people dying and going to the grave. Job said it best Job 14:[sup]12[/sup]So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep. Why is it hard for you to see it?

A physical body with a spirit is called a "soul." A soul without the body is a "spirit." Whenever you read the scriptures that speak of a "soul" it is about a spirit with a body; whenever you read in the scriptures about a "spirit" it is about the person without their body.

When we receive the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit lives in our bodies, and gives life to our spirit, as we live our life according to the Spirit.

I have been proving everything with scriptures, but this post and the last post I did not repeat with scripture, because you do deny what the scriptures say, I did not think I should go to the trouble to find the scriptures for you and post them.

You say that I must believe in Greek mythology to believe there is a place of Hades/hell where the spirits of the dead go. You must not believe all of the Holy Bible because that is a place Jesus tells us about! And maybe you don't want to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin? Maybe you don't believe it, since the god Horeus was born of a virgin. Maybe you don't want to believe that Jesus died for our sins, since there is a Hindu god that died for the sins of others. I can go on and on with this to prove my point that your accusation is ridiculous...saying that I believe in Greek mythology because I believe what the Bible says?!

You do not believe what Hebrews 12:23 plainly says where the spirits of the righteous go. You do not believe a lot from the New Testament, yet you quote a lot of Old Testament scriptures and deny and twist the New Testament scriptures to try and prove your false teachings. In the New Testament we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. (See 2 Peter 1:19)

You do not understand the power of God nor the scriptures. You have your own doctrine about the spirit and eternal life, I call it a doctrine of death, and you choose it over the word of God.

 

[S.T. Ranger]

So tell me exactly when are we suppose to be in heaven? Pay close attention to the scriptures I will provide. Proving otherwise!
John 5:
[sup]24[/sup]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [sup]25[/sup]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.

And how does a dead body hear?




[sup]

[sup]26[/sup]For as the Father hath life in himself; so hath he given to the Son to have life in himself;

[sup]27[/sup]And hath given him authority to execute judgment also, because he is the Son of man.

[sup]28[/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,

[sup]29[/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation.

Now its says all that are in the graves! Now we will hear from Jesus when He will raise them from their graves. NOT HEAVEN.

Notice v. 25: The hour is coming and now is...

What is He saying? That the resurrection of the dead is at hand? Well, resurrection certainly happened...



Matthew 27:52-53 (King James Version)




[sup]52[/sup]And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [sup]53[/sup]And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


[/sup]...but this isn't really the matter at hand, is it?

The question the O.P. raises is whether we go to heaven when we die.

John 6:[sup]38[/sup]For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

[sup]39[/sup]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.
[sup]
40[/sup]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day.
[sup]44[/sup]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

How many times will the Lord have to say it. Lets continue....

Wait, lets just stop for a second, before we continue.

At this point in time, only general revelation has been given concerning resurrection. Isn't it significant that when Paul teaches concerning resurrection, he proclaims this to be a mystery, concerning the rising from the dead of believers?

Okay, onward we go.

1 Cor. 15:
[sup]20[/sup]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Slept where? In their graves!
[sup]
21[/sup]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[sup]22[/sup]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[sup]23[/sup]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.


So when is the resurrection of the dead? At Christ coming. No one is going to heaven! If everyone is in heaven or hell, then why does the scripture say this about those going to be punished?

And what is Christ being the firstfruit mean?

The first to be resurrected? Couldn't be, there is Old Testament (as well as New) precedent.

Well, examine Christ's resurrection. The same body in which He lived and died in was not only brought back to life, but was glorified. It is the same body in which He is in today.

Has anyone else been glorified? Not yet.

So, if the O.P. had said Christ is the ONLY "...glorified, I would have agreed with it. But since it is a thread that seeks to deny that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, well, I wish to present the other view.

2 Peter 2:[sup]9[/sup]The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:

Explain why would Peter say reserve the unjust til the day of judgment to be punished? I believe you should truly study the scripture before telling anyone they are going to heaven. Or that there are people being burned in hell. That is a false doctrine!

Is it? When is the day of judgement? Ultimately that would be the lake of fire, where eternal judgment will be executed.

And why would both death and Hell be cast into the lake of fire? Will the resting places of the dead indeed be cast into the lake of fire?

The explanation is simple: they are reserved in Hell until the day of judgment.

2 Cor.15:[sup]34[/sup]Awake to righteousness, and sin not; for some have not the knowledge of God: I speak this to your shame.

[sup]35[/sup]But some man will say, How are the dead raised up? and with what body do they come?

[sup]44[/sup]It is sown a natural body; it is raised a spiritual body. There is a natural body, and there is a spiritual body.

[sup]45[/sup]And so it is written, The first man Adam was made a living soul; the last Adam was made a quickening spirit.

[sup]46[/sup]Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual.

[sup]47[/sup]The first man is of the earth, earthy; the second man is the Lord from heaven.

[sup]48[/sup]As is the earthy, such are they also that are earthy: and as is the heavenly, such are they also that are heavenly.

[sup]49[/sup]And as we have borne the image of the earthy, we shall also bear the image of the heavenly.

[sup]50[/sup]Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.

[sup]51[/sup]Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed,

[sup]52[/sup]In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

At the last trumpet when Christ returns, then the resurrection of the dead, and the changing of the body shall come. Even Job, Isaiah,and David knew about this!

How could they? Did Paul not just say "I show you a mystery?"

The context is exclusively for those who will inherit the kingdom of God...believers.

Not to imply that I do not think that the wicked will not also receive bodies suited for eternal punishment in the lake of fire, I believe they will. How else could they recieve eternal punishment?

Job 14:
[sup]10[/sup]But man dieth, and wasteth away: yea, man giveth up the ghost, and where is he?

[sup]11[/sup]As the waters fail from the sea, and the flood decayeth and drieth up:

[sup]12[/sup]So man lieth down, and riseth not: till the heavens be no more, they shall not awake, nor be raised out of their sleep.

Now did you just read what I read? "So man lieth down, and riseth not" No one is rising to heaven!! Now read the next verse.

[sup]13[/sup]O that thou wouldest hide me in the grave, that thou wouldest keep me secret, until thy wrath be past, that thou wouldest appoint me a set time, and remember me!

Job knew there was a set time, and he also knew about the change that would come!

[sup]14[/sup]If a man die, shall he live again? all the days of my appointed time will I wait, till my change come.

[sup]15[/sup]Thou shalt call, and I will answer thee: thou wilt have a desire to the work of thine hands.

vs 15 says it clear. He will call and Job will answer from the grave!

Isaiah 26:
[sup]19[/sup]Thy dead men shall live, together with my dead body shall they arise. Awake and sing, ye that dwell in dust: for thy dew is as the dew of herbs, and the earth shall cast out the dead.


Isaiah said ye that dwell in the dust! He said the earth shall cast out the dead. Last verse!

Does the Old Testament teaching deny the revelation and teaching of the New?

Rev 20:
[sup]11[/sup]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

[sup]12[/sup]And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[sup]13[/sup]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

Now if the righteous people or unjust people were in heaven or hell. Why would the earth have to give up the dead that was in it? No one is in heaven or hell. All are in the graves until the resurrections.

Notice that the dead are standing? But if we look at what the premise of this thread is teaching, we can gain a little insight on the confusion concerning Christ being the first to be raised to an eternal glorified body.

So when we view this passage, we see that those who stand before the Great White Throne (who I believe to consist of the wicked only, based on the fact that they are termed dead) are reunited with the earthly bodies that went into the grave...which is also ratified in ch.20, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

This is why the earth gives up the dead...because that same body they died in will be resurrected at this time. That their spirit was in hell is illustrated in many passages by the Lord Himself. These are the spirits in prison which Christ preached to.

GTY

 

[Xanderoc]

A physical body with a spirit is called a "soul." A soul without the body is a "spirit." Whenever you read the scriptures that speak of a "soul" it is about a spirit with a body; whenever you read in the scriptures about a "spirit" it is about the person without their body.

When we receive the Holy Spirit, the Holy Spirit lives in our bodies, and gives life to our spirit, as we live our life according to the Spirit.

I have been proving everything with scriptures, but this post and the last post I did not repeat with scripture, because you do deny what the scriptures say, I did not think I should go to the trouble to find the scriptures for you and post them.

You say that I must believe in Greek mythology to believe there is a place of Hades/hell where the spirits of the dead go. You must not believe all of the Holy Bible because that is a place Jesus tells us about! And maybe you don't want to believe that Jesus was born of a virgin? Maybe you don't believe it, since the god Horeus was born of a virgin. Maybe you don't want to believe that Jesus died for our sins, since there is a Hindu god that died for the sins of others. I can go on and on with this to prove my point that your accusation is ridiculous...saying that I believe in Greek mythology because I believe what the Bible says?!

You do not believe what Hebrews 12:23 plainly says where the spirits of the righteous go. You do not believe a lot from the New Testament, yet you quote a lot of Old Testament scriptures and deny and twist the New Testament scriptures to try and prove your false teachings. In the New Testament we have the word of the prophets made more certain, and you will do well to pay attention to it, as to a light shining in a dark place, until the day dawns and the morning star rises in your hearts. (See 2 Peter 1:19)

You do not understand the power of God nor the scriptures. You have your own doctrine about the spirit and eternal life, I call it a doctrine of death, and you choose it over the word of God.

I have pointed the scriptures both from old and new. I don't believe in Greek mythology. I have clearly shown you the truth of the scripture. If you choose not to believe, that's between you and God. I believe everything in the Bible. I'm not twisting anything, nor interpreting anything either. You haven't proven anything with one scripture that you quoted. This conversation is pointless, you refuse to see the truth, so believe what you will. THERE STILL ISN'T A PERSON IN HEAVEN. But God and the angels. I understand the power of God through His scriptures, I just can't sit back and allow you to lie to the people reading this thread of that false doctrine of the righteous going to heaven or the unjust burning in hell. You haven't proven anything through the scriptures. Just your interpretation.

 

[Anastacia]

I have pointed the scriptures both from old and new. I don't believe in Greek mythology. I have clearly shown you the truth of the scripture. If you choose not to believe, that's between you and God. I believe everything in the Bible. I'm not twisting anything, nor interpreting anything either. You haven't proven anything with one scripture that you quoted. This conversation is pointless, you refuse to see the truth, so believe what you will. THERE STILL ISN'T A PERSON IN HEAVEN. But God and the angels. I understand the power of God through His scriptures, I just can't sit back and allow you to lie to the people reading this thread of that false doctrine of the righteous going to heaven or the unjust burning in hell. You haven't proven anything through the scriptures. Just your interpretation.

You are the one who blatantly denied and twisted the scriptures. I'll prove it to you again that you deny the scriptures...Look, it's easy. Read this: Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

Now, tell us all again how this scripture does not say the the spirits of righteous men made perfect are in heaven. Or would you like to change now and admit the truth?

You are even trying to get people to believe the Bible is corrupt with Greek mythology. What kind of sin might that be when you do that?!

You say "you haven't proven anything with one scripture that you quoted." God's Word is powerful, with one scripture you are shown were the spirits of the righteous go. But you deny that and many others things like that. You don't know the power of God, nor do you understand the scriptures.

 

[Anastacia]

Quote Xander:
"2 Peter 2:[sup]9[/sup]The Lord knoweth how to deliver the godly out of temptations, and to reserve the unjust unto the day of judgment to be punished:
Explain why would Peter say reserve the unjust til the day of judgment to be punished? I believe you should truly study the scripture before telling anyone they are going to heaven. Or that there are people being burned in hell. That is a false doctrine! "

_________________________________________


Quote S.T. Ranger:

"Is it? When is the day of judgement? Ultimately that would be the lake of fire, where eternal judgment will be executed.

And why would both death and Hell be cast into the lake of fire? Will the resting places of the dead indeed be cast into the lake of fire?

The explanation is simple: they are reserved in Hell until the day of judgment."



_________________________________________




S.T. Ranger explained this well for you.

 

[S.T. Ranger]

Just as the scriptures states; no one is in heaven with the Father other than those that were there in the beginning; that means there is only Jesus and the angels that did not follow Satan! No one has received their spirit bodies yet! No one has been made perfect yet! No one has gone from flesh and blood body to a spirit being other that Christ!

Think about it!

If Moses and Elias have, in fact, received their spirit bodies why would Paul say the following;

Heb.11
[39] And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:
[40] God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.

And who was it that Paul said have not been made perfect? Let's read.....


[23] By faith Moses, when he was born, was hid three months of his parents, because they saw he was a proper child; and they were not afraid of the king's commandment.

And....

[32] And what shall I more say? for the time would fail me to tell of Gedeon, and of Barak, and of Samson, and of Jephthae; of David also, and Samuel, and of the prophets:


So tell me....Did Christ give Moses and Elias their perfect bodies just to show the apostles and then took their bodies away by the time Paul made his statement? Because Paul said not ONE of the saints have been made perfect. Not only have they not been made perfect, but Paul goes on to say they WILL not be made perfect without HIM!

So that means they could NOT have been given their spirit bodies at the time the apostles saw them on the mount with Jesus!

So if it was not their spirit bodies the apostles saw, what was it? Jesus tells us......

"...Tell the vision to no man..."


.

Where to start?

"...only Jesus and the angels that did not follw Satan..."

Revelation 12:10 (King James Version)


[sup]10[/sup]And I heard a loud voice saying in heaven, Now is come salvation, and strength, and the kingdom of our God, and the power of his Christ: for the accuser of our brethren is cast down, which accused them before our God day and night.





Job 1:6-8 (King James Version)




[sup]6[/sup]Now there was a day when the sons of God came to present themselves before the LORD, and Satan came also among them.

[sup]7[/sup]And the LORD said unto Satan, Whence comest thou? Then Satan answered the LORD, and said, From going to and fro in the earth, and from walking up and down in it. [sup]8[/sup]And the LORD said unto Satan, Hast thou considered my servant Job, that there is none like him in the earth, a perfect and an upright man, one that feareth God, and escheweth evil?


Notice that Job is called "perfect."

But the error in the post above is this: it makes perfection something that it is not, by contrasting easily distinguished contexts.

But we see that these verses above show that Satan and presumably the angels that followed him have access to God.

"...No one has received their spirit bodies yet..."

With this I agree, only the Lord has been glorified.

"No one has been made perfect yet!"

A careful study of Hebrews will show just the opposite, even for a beginning student of the word:





Hebrews 10:14 (King James Version)


[sup]14[/sup]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.



But this is also spoken of in Hebrews. In chapter 5, the hearers are admonished because they do not know the basic teaching of Christ, and are said to be infantile in their understanding, due to their laziness in their study of God's word.

They are then told to go on to "perfection," and God's word will never instruct us to do something that is not possible for us to accomplish.

The poster says "no one has been made perfect," but that is not what God's word says.

The perfection spoken of concerning the Old Testament saints is not the receiving of the glorified body, this will not take place until the resurrection (pick your time for that).

The perfection spoken of is the completion found in salvation through faith in Christ.

GTY

 

[Anastacia]

Hebrews 10:14 (King James Version)


[sup]14[/sup]For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.

But this is also spoken of in Hebrews. In chapter 5, the hearers are admonished because they do not know the basic teaching of Christ, and are said to be infantile in their understanding, due to their laziness in their study of God's word.

They are then told to go on to "perfection," and God's word will never instruct us to do something that is not possible for us to accomplish.

The poster says "no one has been made perfect," but that is not what God's word says.

The perfection spoken of concerning the Old Testament saints is not the receiving of the glorified body, this will not take place until the resurrection (pick your time for that).

The perfection spoken of is the completion found in salvation through faith in Christ.

Good showing that we are made perfect by our faith in Jesus Christ.

 

[Xanderoc]

[/size]


Notice v. 25: The hour is coming and now is...

What is He saying? That the resurrection of the dead is at hand? Well, resurrection certainly happened...



Matthew 27:52-53 (King James Version)




[sup]52[/sup]And the graves were opened; and many bodies of the saints which slept arose, [sup]53[/sup]And came out of the graves after his resurrection, and went into the holy city, and appeared unto many.


[/sup]...but this isn't really the matter at hand, is it?

The question the O.P. raises is whether we go to heaven when we die.

Yes there were people who were resurrected after Christ death. But that resurrection was not to glorified bodies. Christ was the first to receive a glorified body.

And what is Christ being the firstfruit mean?

The first to be resurrected? Couldn't be, there is Old Testament (as well as New) precedent.

Well, examine Christ's resurrection. The same body in which He lived and died in was not only brought back to life, but was glorified. It is the same body in which He is in today.

Has anyone else been glorified? Not yet.

So, if the O.P. had said Christ is the ONLY "...glorified, I would have agreed with it. But since it is a thread that seeks to deny that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord, well, I wish to present the other view.

Christ was the first to receive a glorified body. No one will receive a glorified body until the first resurrection. This will be the time.
1 Thess. 4:
[sup]13[/sup]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

[sup]14[/sup]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[sup]15[/sup]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

This is the hour Jesus was talking about in John 5
John 5:


[sup]24[/sup]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [sup]25[/sup]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
The people that resurrected after Jesus death rose and died again.

Notice the words sleep in Christ in 1 Thess 4:13,14,15. 1 Cor. 15:
[sup]20[/sup]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Slept where? In their graves!
[sup]
21[/sup]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[sup]22[/sup]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[sup]23[/sup]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

Is it? When is the day of judgement? Ultimately that would be the lake of fire, where eternal judgment will be executed.

And why would both death and Hell be cast into the lake of fire? Will the resting places of the dead indeed be cast into the lake of fire?

The explanation is simple: they are reserved in Hell until the day of judgment.

What is hell then? A place of torment? If so, that would mean they have been judge already. Lets see when the Bible says people will get judge...Rev
Rev. 20:
[sup]11[/sup]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

[sup]12[/sup]And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[sup]13[/sup]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[sup]14[/sup]And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[sup]15[/sup]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Death and hell represent the grave... Not a big mystery here... Read Hosea 13

Hosea 13: [sup]14[/sup]I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Who ransom us from the power of the grave? Jesus did, at His resurrection!

Does the Old Testament teaching deny the revelation and teaching of the New?

Of course the Old Testament doesn't deny the revelation and teaching of the New. But the New does not contradict the Old either. They are both needed to receive light(understanding)!
Isaiah 8: [sup]20[/sup]To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
You need them both!

Notice that the dead are standing? But if we look at what the premise of this thread is teaching, we can gain a little insight on the confusion concerning Christ being the first to be raised to an eternal glorified body.

First I see no confusion in the OP. Second we know Christ was the first, and only to receive a glorified body. No one will receive it until the first resurrection. And some in the second.

So when we view this passage, we see that those who stand before the Great White Throne (who I believe to consist of the wicked only, based on the fact that they are termed dead) are reunited with the earthly bodies that went into the grave...which is also ratified in ch.20, "But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished."

I can't say that the wicked were the only ones being judged. Who ever wasn't found worthy to receive that glorified body in the first resurrection is standing there to be judged. Thus the scripture saying in Rev.
Rev 20:[sup]15[/sup]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. If they were all wicked their names wouldn't be found in the book of life, and there wouldn't be no need of a judgment.

This is why the earth gives up the dead...because that same body they died in will be resurrected at this time. That their spirit was in hell is illustrated in many passages by the Lord Himself. These are the spirits in prison which Christ preached to.

You continue to say Jesus spoke to the spirits that were in prison...Let read what you are talking about..1Peter3:[sup]18[/sup]For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [sup]19[/sup]By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

[sup]20[/sup]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


The spirits He preached to were wicked angels Jude [sup]6[/sup]And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

He could be talking to the dead since in Eccl. it says you have no wisdom, no knowledge in the grave where you go once you die! Eccl. 9: [sup]10[/sup]Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Lets read Psalms 147:[sup]3[/sup]Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

[sup]4[/sup]His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Let makes sense of the scripture...Psalm says when you die, that very day your thoughts perish, Eccl says you have no knowledge, nor wisdom. So explain to me why Christ preached to spirits with no knowledge,no wisdom, who have no thoughts?

 

[Xanderoc]

Wait, lets just stop for a second, before we continue.

At this point in time, only general revelation has been given concerning resurrection. Isn't it significant that when Paul teaches concerning resurrection, he proclaims this to be a mystery, concerning the rising from the dead of believers?

Okay, onward we go.

You were mistaken to say at "At this point in time, only general revelation has been given concerning resurrection." Martha knew about the resurrection listen to what she said concerning Lazurus. John 11:[sup]21[/sup]Then said Martha unto Jesus, Lord, if thou hadst been here, my brother had not died. [sup]22[/sup]But I know, that even now, whatsoever thou wilt ask of God, God will give it thee.

[sup]23[/sup]Jesus saith unto her, Thy brother shall rise again.

[sup]24[/sup]Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

So it is apparent Martha, and those that walked with Christ knew what Jesus was talking about when He said in John 6


John 6:[sup]38[/sup]For I came down from heaven, not to do mine own will, but the will of him that sent me.

[sup]39[/sup]And this is the Father's will which hath sent me, that of all which he hath given me I should lose nothing, but should raise it up again at the last day.[sup]40[/sup]And this is the will of him that sent me, that every one which seeth the Son, and believeth on him, may have everlasting life: and I will raise him up at the last day. [sup]44[/sup]No man can come to me, except the Father which hath sent me draw him: and I will raise him up at the last day.

You are the one who blatantly denied and twisted the scriptures. I'll prove it to you again that you deny the scriptures...Look, it's easy. Read this: Hebrews 12:23 to the church of the firstborn, whose names are written in heaven. You have come to God, the judge of all men, to the spirits of righteous men made perfect,

Now, tell us all again how this scripture does not say the the spirits of righteous men made perfect are in heaven. Or would you like to change now and admit the truth?

You are even trying to get people to believe the Bible is corrupt with Greek mythology. What kind of sin might that be when you do that?!

You say "you haven't proven anything with one scripture that you quoted." God's Word is powerful, with one scripture you are shown were the spirits of the righteous go. But you deny that and many others things like that. You don't know the power of God, nor do you understand the scriptures.

Anastacia Just explain what this means John 5: [sup]28[/sup]Marvel not at this: for the hour is coming, in the which all that are in the graves shall hear his voice,[sup]29[/sup]And shall come forth; they that have done good, unto the resurrection of life; and they that have done evil, unto the resurrection of damnation. ALL MEANS ALL, IN THE GRAVE!! AT THE RESURRECTION!!! Please explain that verse then sinsce you said "God's Word is powerful, with one scripture"....I showed you with one scripture ALL IN THE GRAVES. Explain that verse then.

 

[Anastacia]

You continue to say Jesus spoke to the spirits that were in prison...Let read what you are talking about..1Peter3:[sup]18[/sup]For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [sup]19[/sup]By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

[sup]20[/sup]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


The spirits He preached to were wicked angels Jude [sup]6[/sup]And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

He could be talking to the dead since in Eccl. it says you have no wisdom, no knowledge in the grave where you go once you die! Eccl. 9: [sup]10[/sup]Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

Lets read Psalms 147:[sup]3[/sup]Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

[sup]4[/sup]His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Let makes sense of the scripture...Psalm says when you die, that very day your thoughts perish, Eccl says you have no knowledge, nor wisdom. So explain to me why Christ preached to spirits with no knowledge,no wisdom, who have no thoughts?

Why would Jesus preach to the angels that disobeyed? You deny the scriptures.

And, as for you bringing up Eccesiastes 9:10, that is about the body of man when it is dead. All of Ecclesiastes is about what life is like without God---meaningless.

You said Psalms 147:3, but it is Psalm 146:3-4. This is what Psalm 146:3-4 says:




[sup]3[/sup] Do not put your trust in princes,
in mortal men, who cannot save. [sup]4[/sup] When their spirit departs, they return to the ground;
on that very day their plans come to nothing.



Now you see, it doesn't say what you are trying to imply.

 

[S.T. Ranger]

Yes there were people who were resurrected after Christ death. But that resurrection was not to glorified bodies. Christ was the first to receive a glorified body.


Christ was the first to receive a glorified body. No one will receive a glorified body until the first resurrection. This will be the time.
1 Thess. 4:
[sup]13[/sup]But I would not have you to be ignorant, brethren, concerning them which are asleep, that ye sorrow not, even as others which have no hope.

[sup]14[/sup]For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him.

[sup]15[/sup]For this we say unto you by the word of the Lord, that we which are alive and remain unto the coming of the Lord shall not prevent them which are asleep.

[sup]16[/sup]For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

[sup]17[/sup]Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

Agreed.

This is the hour Jesus was talking about in John 5
John 5:


[sup]24[/sup]Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that heareth my word, and believeth on him that sent me, hath everlasting life, and shall not come into condemnation; but is passed from death unto life. [sup]25[/sup]Verily, verily, I say unto you, The hour is coming, and now is, when the dead shall hear the voice of the Son of God: and they that hear shall live.
The people that resurrected after Jesus death rose and died again.

Notice the words sleep in Christ in 1 Thess 4:13,14,15. 1 Cor. 15:
[sup]20[/sup]But now is Christ risen from the dead, and become the firstfruits of them that slept. Slept where? In their graves!
[sup]
21[/sup]For since by man came death, by man came also the resurrection of the dead.

[sup]22[/sup]For as in Adam all die, even so in Christ shall all be made alive.

[sup]23[/sup]But every man in his own order: Christ the firstfruits; afterward they that are Christ's at his coming.

The term "sleep" is foundational to the belief that when people die, they are no longer conscious.

Those who disagree with this position believe that the term is euphemistic for death of the physical body, which resembles sleep.

Jesus makes it clear when He uses this term:


John 11:1-14

Note especially:




John 11

[sup]11[/sup]These things said he: and after that he saith unto them, Our friend Lazarus sleepeth; but I go, that I may awake him out of sleep.

[sup]12[/sup]Then said his disciples, Lord, if he sleep, he shall do well.

[sup]13[/sup]Howbeit Jesus spake of his death: but they thought that he had spoken of taking of rest in sleep. [sup]14[/sup]Then said Jesus unto them plainly, Lazarus is dead.


Jesus uses the familiar term for death yet the disciples mistake this for the taking of rest...


It is a term like we would use today, such as, "passing away." That is how many view this term.

What is hell then? A place of torment? If so, that would mean they have been judge already. Lets see when the Bible says people will get judge...Rev

Is it not a place of torment? To be separated from your loved ones, and worse...to know you are separated from God, and have come to understand that the God they did not believe in or rejected is real?

Are the angels spoken of by Jude and Peter not already judged?



2 Peter 2:4-5 (King James Version)




[sup]4[/sup]For if God spared not the angels that sinned, but cast them down to hell, and delivered them into chains of darkness, to be reserved unto judgment; [sup]5[/sup]And spared not the old world, but saved Noah the eighth person, a preacher of righteousness, bringing in the flood upon the world of the ungodly;


Would this not be the torment the devils asked Jesus, whether He had come to "torment them" (cast them in prison) "before the time" (the lake of fire)?

It is similar to the death row inmate who has been judged and awaits final execution of the sentence.

Rev. 20:
[sup]11[/sup]And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

[sup]12[/sup]And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

[sup]13[/sup]And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

[sup]14[/sup]And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

[sup]15[/sup]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

Death and hell represent the grave... Not a big mystery here...

Both death and hell represent the grave? Many faithful servants of God have gone into the grave, but not one of them have gone into hell. This speaks of the resurrection of the dead, in which they will be reunited with their physical bodies which will be suited for eternal damnation in the lake of fire.

They are termed "dead," which term applies only to the just/saved before salvation.

Read Hosea 13

Hosea 13: [sup]14[/sup]I will ransom them from the power of the grave; I will redeem them from death: O death, I will be thy plagues; O grave, I will be thy destruction: repentance shall be hid from mine eyes.

Who ransom us from the power of the grave? Jesus did, at His resurrection!

Jesus ransomed us from the penalty of death...we will still die physically.

This speaks of the resurrection, not the atonement of the Cross specifically.

Of course the Old Testament doesn't deny the revelation and teaching of the New. But the New does not contradict the Old either. They are both needed to receive light(understanding)!
Isaiah 8: [sup]20[/sup]To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them.
You need them both!

Agreed. So it amazes me that the New Testament revelation concerning resurrection and the disposition of the dead is ignored.

First I see no confusion in the OP. Second we know Christ was the first, and only to receive a glorified body. No one will receive it until the first resurrection. And some in the second.

I see a confusion of firstborn and firstfruit, for one.

The OP states that no-one goes to heaven or hell, which contradicts many scriptures.

I can't say that the wicked were the only ones being judged. Who ever wasn't found worthy to receive that glorified body in the first resurrection is standing there to be judged. Thus the scripture saying in Rev.
Rev 20:[sup]15[/sup]And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire. If they were all wicked their names wouldn't be found in the book of life, and there wouldn't be no need of a judgment.

Here I will not be dogmatic.

I believe that only the wicked come before the Great White Throne, but will concede that this is based upon available scripture and the interpretation I have arrived at thus far in my walk with the Lord.

I do not make the mistake of thinking that I cannot be wrong, nor do I think all is revealed to us in scripture.

Only those things the Lord has seen fit to show us.

You continue to say Jesus spoke to the spirits that were in prison...Let read what you are talking about..1Peter3:[sup]18[/sup]For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: [sup]19[/sup]By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;

[sup]20[/sup]Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.


The spirits He preached to were wicked angels Jude [sup]6[/sup]And the angels which kept not their first estate, but left their own habitation, he hath reserved in everlasting chains under darkness unto the judgment of the great day.

The text would imply that this speaks of those living in Noah's day, not the angels.

These are they Jesus preached to, when He led captivity captive. I believe He led those who had died, yet had not had their sin atoned for yet to heaven.

He could be talking to the dead since in Eccl. it says you have no wisdom, no knowledge in the grave where you go once you die! Eccl. 9: [sup]10[/sup]Whatsoever thy hand findeth to do, do it with thy might; for there is no work, nor device, nor knowledge, nor wisdom, in the grave, whither thou goest.

I assume you meant to say "couldn't be talking to the dead..."

And again, I refer you to the limited, general teaching of resurrection in the Old Testament. They knew there would be a resurrection of both the just and the unjust, but they did not have the knowledge of being glorified, as we do. That one thought should be a good example of the understanding of the O.T. saint.

Lets read Psalms 147:[sup]3[/sup]Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help.

[sup]4[/sup]His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish.

Let makes sense of the scripture...Psalm says when you die, that very day your thoughts perish, Eccl says you have no knowledge, nor wisdom. So explain to me why Christ preached to spirits with no knowledge,no wisdom, who have no thoughts?

But when we look at the New Testament teaching, we see that understanding of life after death is clarified.

Paul was torn between remaining among the brethren, and the desire to be with the Lord...not to go into an unconscious existence in the grave:




2 Corinthians 5


[sup]1[/sup]For we know that if our earthly house of this tabernacle were dissolved, we have a building of God, an house not made with hands, eternal in the heavens.

[sup]2[/sup]For in this we groan, earnestly desiring to be clothed upon with our house which is from heaven:

[sup]3[/sup]If so be that being clothed we shall not be found naked.

[sup]4[/sup]For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

[sup]5[/sup]Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

[sup]6[/sup]Therefore we are always confident, knowing that, whilst we are at home in the body, we are absent from the Lord:

[sup]7[/sup](For we walk by faith, not by sight [sup]8[/sup]We are confident, I say, and willing rather to be absent from the body, and to be present with the Lord.


There is no way to take this for other than what it says.

Just so you know, my intention is to discuss this, rather than argue. I understand the position you have taken, and hey, that is your belief. I do not think it something that necessarily means one is heretical, or that it might change whether one is in Christ or not, it is one of those things that we all must come to a conclusion to on our own.

Hope we can debate doctrine in a brotherly fashion.


GTY