Jesus is a human being but not the one true God

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Helen

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"Seems like your doctrine of babies and young children have no sin comes from your or somebody else's imagination."

It may come from her personal face to face encounters with a man she calls Jesus.

She also said: "He was not however deemed to be The Son until showing Himself able to live without sin,..."

That statement seems un-Biblical also.

Are you always so gentle , polite , and kindhearted!!!! :rolleyes: :oops:
Before her own Master she stands or falls...not YOU!
Her experiences are hers...not yours!!

All I can say ...OUCH!!
It is one thing to Debate and have different perspectives on doctrine and interpretations ....but quite another thing to personally attack someone , that is totally uncalled for... I thought you were better than that.
Your post belongs in @aspen 's thread on bullying. :oops:


 
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tabletalk

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Are you always so gentle , polite , and kindhearted!!!! :rolleyes: :oops:
Before her own Master she stands or falls...not YOU!
Her experiences are hers...not yours!!

All I can say ...OUCH!!
It is one thing to Debate and have different perspectives on doctrine and interpretations ....but quite another thing to personally attack someone , that is totally uncalled for... I thought you were better than that.
Your post belongs in @aspen 's thread on bullying. :oops:



These are the only sentences that are my own words in the post that you responded to:
"It may come from her personal face to face encounters with a man she calls Jesus."
"That statement seems un-Biblical also."

That is all I said and it does not seem like bullying to me. And, she has since responded to Oz about the un-Biblical issue by saying she got her teaching directly from the man she calls Jesus.

So, she does get her teaching from somewhere other than the Bible, and many, if not most, people on these Christian forums use mostly the Bible to back up their views. How is this bullying, or a personal attack?
I guess you should report me and let the Administrators decide.
 

tabletalk

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it is not go read about all those who saw Jesus after His resurection. what do you think Jesus died for???

Here is what Pia said:
"He was not however deemed to be The Son until showing Himself able to live without sin,..."

Here is what I said to Ozspen"
"That statement seems un-Biblical also."

Now what does your statement have to do with Jesus not "deemed to be The Son until showing Himself able to live without sin,..." ?
 

amadeus

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Of Ps 51:5,

...

5–8. He has inherited a sinful nature; and yet, so he is confident, God can and will make it conform to His desire. The emphatic ‘Behold!’ marks the beginning of a new stanza.​

C H Spurgeon preached/wrote in Treasury of David on Ps 51:5,

EXPOSITION

Verse 5. Behold, I was shapen in iniquity. He is thunderstruck at the discovery of his inbred sin, and proceeds to set it forth. This was not intended to justify himself, but it rather meant to complete the confession. It is as if he said, not only have I sinned this once, but I am in my very nature a sinner. The fountain of my life is polluted as well as its streams. My birth tendencies are out of the square of equity; I naturally lean to forbidden things. Mine is a constitutional disease, rendering my very person obnoxious to thy wrath. And in sin did my mother conceive me. He goes back to the earliest moment of his being, not to traduce his mother, but to acknowledge the deep tap roots of his sin. It is a wicked wresting of Scripture to deny that original sin and natural depravity are here taught. Surely men who cavil at this doctrine have need to be taught of the Holy Spirit what be the first principles of the faith. David's mother was the Lord's handmaid, he was born in chaste wedlock, of a good father, and he was himself, "the man after God's own heart;" and yet his nature was as fallen as that of any other son of Adam, and there only needed the occasion for the manifesting of that sad fact. In our shaping we were put out of shape, and when we were conceived our nature conceived sin. Alas, for poor humanity! Those who will may cry it up, but he is most blessed who in his own soul has learned to lament his lost estate.​


The sinfulness of men to me means that we were born corruptible, but not yet corrupted. Being corruptible, once we were able to do so we went ahead and corrupted ourselves by sinning... often by imitating our parents or our peers.

Our carnal nature was attracted in that direction by "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life", but before we recognized the error of going that way, I cannot see that there was sin in us. We were simply born dead to the Way of God. That is not sin. That is dead. Being dead, however, we had no means of keeping ourselves from sin. This is where the importance of proper parenthood could and would make a positive difference.

What does Solomon write about this under inspiration?

"Train up a child in the way he should go: and when he is old, he will not depart from it." Prov 22:6

Absolutely true, but what parent does such a perfect job that the child is always trained up in exactly the way that he should go?

Following the lead of our already corrupted parents or guardians or whoever was there for us to obey, disobey or imitate, we eventually moved into sins of our own. We needed the Word of God and the Holy Ghost ourselves.

Every parent except the Father of the first and second man Adam sinned before their children were born, so they had already been "shapen in iniquity", already corrupted. Which parent, even one who has come to know the Master, has never messed up in front of his/her children? Which child has never imitated some the sins observed in its parents?


As for your belief that Ps 58:3 does not teach inherited sinfulness, it states: 'The wicked are estranged from the womb; they go astray from birth, speaking lies' (ESV).

I agree with the issue you have stated about Ps 58:3. However, I understand that there are some verses in Ps 58 that are extremely difficult to translate. Some Bible students have found it almost impossible to translate 58:9, especially the end of the verse. We can see the difficulty when we compare different Bible translations of these verses.

There are additional problems in interpreting 58:3 literally (remember that the Psalms are poetry). This verse states that 'the wicked ... go astray from birth, speaking lies'. I have never heard a 1 day old baby speaking lies. Have you?

Babies, all of them, are born selfish. It is not a sinful selfishness but rather a self-preservation type of selfishness. They are hungry or cold or dirty or tired and they are unable to fix any of these problems themselves. Soon they will [in the normal situation] learn that crying will result in receiving relief from the parents. Initially this is a good selfishness used to fulfill a real need for the survival of the child. The problem is that the child will eventually learn to cry to obtain things wanted as opposed to things needed. A good parent will learn to understand the difference and will work to correct the problem.

Selfish young children are tolerable while in the learning process. A selfish teenager is less tolerable. Few people will want anything to do with a really selfish adult. At what point did the selfishness for survival become a sin? God knows.


Ps 58:6, in speaking of the wicked who are estranged from the womb, 'O God, break the teeth in their mouths' (ESV). Teeth from birth! That's a new one on me. Therefore, taking things literally when poetic language is used is dangerous interpretation.

So then you concede that translations may not always convey to readers the very best possible meaning or interpretation. The needed meaning should be the one that God wants for the person. Who but God is always going to be able to supply that meaning?

Amadeus, do you believe the Bible teaches original sin, that all human beings are sinful from the moment of conception? Romans 5:12-21 (ESV) contains Paul's teaching on original sin.

At the moment of conception they have the potential, but they have not sinned. They may have a tendency to sin [call it a corruptible nature] which means they could sin and indeed when confronted with a tempting situation unless they are prevented they would sin. As I stated already, they were corruptible at natural birth but the corruption of sin wouldn't actually begin until they begin sinning. The only advantage over us Adam and Eve had in the garden is they had no bad examples living all around them. In spite of that advantage they sinned anyway.

Now we have a new opportunity to get past the "the lust of the flesh, and the lust of the eyes, and the pride of life" [I John 2:16] with the sacrifice of Jesus, but the pathway can very rough because by the time we get onto it, we usually have a long history of sin and have formed habits that when followed, lead us to additional sins. The sins have to go, but to reach the end with the Lord, so must also do away with the sinful ways which became a part of us before we met Jesus.
 

OzSpen

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The Jesus which is.

He is defined fairly well by I Corinthians chapter 13 and by Matthew chapters 5-7. How close are we to being as he was when he walked planet Earth as a man? He's still working on me. Until I have it all I try make sure He is in it before I throw away anything.

That avoids the issue of interpretation. The Mormons, JWs, Muslims and Buddhists believe in the 'Jesus who is' but their interpretations are not those like yours or mine.
 

OzSpen

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So then you concede that translations may not always convey to readers the very best possible meaning or interpretation. The needed meaning should be the one that God wants for the person. Who but God is always going to be able to supply that meaning?

Your response here is to my writing this:

Ps 58:6, in speaking of the wicked who are estranged from the womb, 'O God, break the teeth in their mouths' (ESV). Teeth from birth! That's a new one on me. Therefore, taking things literally when poetic language is used is dangerous interpretation.​

I was writing about interpretation of poetry vs literal interpretation.

As a reader and former teacher of NT Greek (now retired), I know the challenges of translation and moving from a word-for-word Greek paragraph to a paragraph that makes sense in the English language.

Yes, there are some translations I would question, based on the exegesis of the Greek text, one example being the KJV's translation of Hades, Gehenna & Tartarus as 'hell'. They are 3 different places, but KJV wants us to think they all refer to the same spot - 'hell'.

Oz
 

Helen

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I guess you should report me and let the Administrators decide.

I don't think so. I guess its because I know Pia so well....and I know the physical battles that she has fought for years, and the constant pain that she is in.
I couldnt be so cheery as her if I was in her shoes, she amazes me. I am a coward with pain.

Her encounter with the Lord gives her the strength to " overcome".

I just felt sad in seeing you talk about her...as " she" ...etc which I felt was sarcastic and hurtful.
But, if she was gracious enough not to get hurt. ...
As I say, she is a better Christian than me.
 

pia

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I have 3 children. They sure knew how to commit sin at a very early age with their temper tantrums and selfishness, especially when another child was born.

I'm very happy to face Jesus with the understanding that all people are sinners from conception. That's what his Bible teaches. I have not read it teach that children 'CANNOT commit sin, before they are old enough to understand what it is'.

Oz
I guess that is the biggest difference between some believers and people such as me. I KNOW that Jesus does not need a Bible to teach anyone, and every single other thing He has taught me or shown me over these past 33 years, has been shown to be the truth, so why should I doubt Him about the children ?
If you want to consider a small child as a sinner because they are selfish (which is necessary for their survival in some ways ), or because they throw a little tantrum, that's your business, I just hope you haven't taken it upon yourself to tell other people that their little kiddies are sinners. People talking outside of anything that they KNOW for an absolute Truth, are called 'blasphemers' are you aware that is what that word actually means ? We can blaspheme God and we can blaspheme by speaking of things we know nothing.
 

pia

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"Seems like your doctrine of babies and young children have no sin comes from your or somebody else's imagination."

It may come from her personal face to face encounters with a man she calls Jesus.

She also said: "He was not however deemed to be The Son until showing Himself able to live without sin,..."

That statement seems un-Biblical also.
So Jesus speaks and you deem it un biblical.....priceless !
 
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mjrhealth

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Here is what Pia said:
"He was not however deemed to be The Son until showing Himself able to live without sin,..."

Here is what I said to Ozspen"
"That statement seems un-Biblical also."
It seems this way, Jesus born of Mary was born as the "son of man", than when He reached the age God needed Him to be He was than baptized in teh Holy Ghost and became, the son of God".

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

and so it is with us

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Jesus was teh first of many.
 
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Dcopymope

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It seems this way, Jesus born of Mary was born as the "son of man", than when He reached the age God needed Him to be He was than baptized in teh Holy Ghost and became, the son of God".

Mat 3:16 And Jesus, when he was baptized, went up straightway out of the water: and, lo, the heavens were opened unto him, and he saw the Spirit of God descending like a dove, and lighting upon him:
Mat 3:17 And lo a voice from heaven, saying, This is my beloved Son, in whom I am well pleased.

and so it is with us

Rom 8:14 For as many as are led by the Spirit of God, they are the sons of God.
Rom 8:15 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father.


Jesus was teh first of many.

If Jesus was merely the "son of man" at birth before his baptism, wouldn't this make Joseph his real father?
 

mjrhealth

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If Jesus was merely the "son of man" at birth before his baptism, wouldn't this make Joseph his real father?
Why'?? So many things God has to show us, but so few willing to ask Him?? Jesus needed to be both, son of man so He could die as a man, and Son of God so He could be resurrected into the new life.
 

Dcopymope

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Why'?? So many things God has to show us, but so few willing to ask Him?? Jesus needed to be both, son of man so He could die as a man, and Son of God so He could be resurrected into the new life.

So was he the Son of God before his baptism or not? Looking at it logically, the baby within Mary couldn't have been "of the holy ghost" and not be the Son of God at the same time to start with.
 

OzSpen

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I guess that is the biggest difference between some believers and people such as me. I KNOW that Jesus does not need a Bible to teach anyone, and every single other thing He has taught me or shown me over these past 33 years, has been shown to be the truth, so why should I doubt Him about the children ?

I KNOW that the Bible teaches things quite different to your belief that Jesus doesn't need a Bible to teach anyone. This is what Scripture teaches:

All Scripture is God-breathed and is useful for teaching, rebuking, correcting and training in righteousness, 17 so that the servant of God may be thoroughly equipped for every good work (2 Tim 3:16-17 NIV, emphasis added).​

Jesus does need a Bible, 'all Scripture', for teaching, rebuking correcting and training in righteousness to thoroughly equip the servant of God.

I have read of Jesus appearing in a vision to people in the Muslim world who don't have access to Scripture, but that's an exception and does not make God's normal way illegitimate.

If you want to consider a small child as a sinner because they are selfish (which is necessary for their survival in some ways ), or because they throw a little tantrum, that's your business, I just hope you haven't taken it upon yourself to tell other people that their little kiddies are sinners.

I believe in and preach original sin of all people from the womb because that is what Scripture teaches. I will not go against Scripture to not 'tell other people that their little kiddies are sinners'.

“As for you, you were dead in your transgressions and sins, in which you used to live when you followed the ways of this world and of the ruler of the kingdom of the air, the spirit who is now at work in those who are disobedient. All of us also lived among them at one time, gratifying the cravings of our sinful nature and following its desires and thoughts. Like the rest, we were by nature objects of wrath” (Eph 2:1-3 NIV).​

From where does the human nature come? It is a continuous line from conception to physical death. See my article, Sinful nature or sinful environment?

People talking outside of anything that they KNOW for an absolute Truth, are called 'blasphemers' are you aware that is what that word actually means ? We can blaspheme God and we can blaspheme by speaking of things we know nothing.

Are you calling me a blasphemer?

Oz
 
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OzSpen

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So Jesus speaks and you deem it un biblical.....priceless !

pia,

You speak about a face-to-face encounter you had with Jesus. I have no idea of knowing which Jesus this is. Could it be another spirit?

This is the problem with experience/existentialism. It's up to the individual to try to interpret what happened. That's why I'd trust the Bible any day over experientialism.

Oz
 

Dcopymope

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pia,

You speak about a face-to-face encounter you had with Jesus. I have no idea of knowing which Jesus this is. Could it be another spirit?

This is the problem with experience/existentialism. It's up to the individual to try to interpret what happened. That's why I'd trust the Bible any day over experientialism.

Oz

Same here, the closest supernatural encounter I probably ever had was when I was waking up, or so it seemed like I was awoke, can't say for sure, it was super weird. There was this dark shadowy figure standing at the entrance to my room, and when I cast it away in the name of Jesus, it immediately became dis-figured and was flung across the room, disappearing. If that experience was what I think it was, then Jesus Christ is indeed not one to be trifled with.

Dcopymope,

How would you describe the scriptural meaning of 'the Son of God' and 'the Son of Man'?

Oz

I don't really need to make it seem like its rocket science like some people do. He is of the seed of the woman, which makes him the son of man, the same seed that God promised would bruise the heel and head of the serpent from the beginning in Genesis 3. He was also born of the holy spirit which makes him the Son of God, the only begotten son.