Jesus Is Our Truth, Reward, And Faithfulness So We Can Lie, Steal, and Fornicate?

[CharismaticLady]

What you don’t know? How are you gonna learn if you don’t seek?
You never listened to
Me before. So instead of
Me telling you I wanted you to seek yourself

I already told you what I thought. If you don't want to tell me what you think...fine.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

I already told you what I thought. If you don't want to tell me what you think...fine.

I did not think you would get it

Paul is refuting the people who claim trying to be justified with grace is a license to sin

that’s what he meant when he said Christ is not a minister of sin.

the law proves us sinners

so while being justified by Christ, technically, we are still sinners

the license to sin lie is just that, a lie

 

[Brakelite]

"If ye fulfil the royal law according to the scripture, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself, ye do well: For whosoever shall keep the whole law, and yet offend in one point, he is guilty of all. For he that said, Do not commit adultery, said also, Do not kill. Now if thou commit no adultery, yet if thou kill, thou art become a transgressor of the law." James 2

The law of God contains His commandments which fulfill His law. The commandments are points of law, not independent commands separate from the law.

And all the law is commandment of God: "That thou mightest fear the LORD thy God, to keep all his statutes and his commandments, which I command thee...But as for thee, stand thou here by me, and I will speak unto thee all the commandments, and the statutes, and the judgments, which thou shalt teach them...Ye shall observe to do therefore as the LORD your God hath commanded you."

The law is one law commanded by one commandment. It is a whole law without separating parts, and in the Old Covenant it is called the law of a carnal commandment. (Heb 7)

The law and commandant of God by Moses was called carnal, because it commanded physical obedience only. The change in law of God from that of Moses to that of Christ was of necessity due to the new birth with divine nature by the faith of Jesus. The Law of God by Christ is now of oath and in the Spirit, called the law of the Spirit.

The commandment now is to repent of dead works and to be changed from within by the Spirit, so that the commandment now is to the inner man first. No more just a carnal commandment against adultery, but the commandment against lust in the heart, which was never commanded in the law of Moses commanded by God in the mount and above the mercy seat.

Therefore, the change of the law of God by necessity from Moses to Christ is completely bound in the change for outward obedience only, carnally, of the flesh, to inward obedience of the heart and the Spirit, against which there is no law. So that he is a Jew that is circumcised inwardly, and he is not a Jew that is circumcised of the flesh only.

They who hold to the carnal commandment of Moses of old, judge not according to faith and spirit inwardly, but only according to the appearance of outward obedience to a law that is past. They have circumcised themselves with carnal hands of a carnal commandment, so that they have made themselves outward in obedience only, not inwardly by the Spirit.

And so, without any regard to confession of faith and sincerity of heart, if the Sabbath is not physically kept, then they are condemned as transgressors unworthy of fellowship in Christ. They thereby separate themselves from the body of Christ by carnal ordinance, even as they separate commandment from law of God, and have not the Spirit. (Jude)

Even as the Pharisees were in the Sabbath, and the Judaizers were in circumcision, so are these worshippers of the Sabbath: they are separatists, elitists, holier-than-thou lawgivers and judges. They have defined themselves by their Sabbath in their own religion, even as the Jews have defined themselves by circumcision in the Jews' religion.

The commandment of the Sabbath is their greatest commandment, for without the keeping of it carnally, they have no fellowship in faith. All the law hangs on it with themselves as keepers and proselytizers.

Your whole argument falls apart the moment you inform your wife that so long as you don't lust after your neighbors daughter, you can freely lie with her because the carnal Commandments are no longer valid. I'm sure your wife will be very impressed by your theology.

 

[TheslightestID]

And that would include the Sabbath commands. You can't just pick the parts you like.

Exodus 35:2 (NKJV)
2 Whoever does any work on it shall be put to death.

I thought it interesting that you didn't get the point Jesus was making with the adulterous woman.

Yes, it was much about the fact all are sinners, but it also spoke loudly in that, there is no death penalty for adultery now.

For those who, even after seeing such scripture as the one on the adulterous woman, still think we are under the full law of moses too a tee or like to use it a ammunition in certian arguments, simply look at the present laws of the land, and remember, God is over our Government, hence those laws.

There is no death penalty in the USA for adultry, proof positive we are not under the Mosaic law, at least as far as punishment here and now.

And that is not to take anything away from the OP's point, as it is a sound law for Christians, it's just that, again, no one is punished in the here and now for not keeping it.

 

[CharismaticLady]

I did not think you would get it

Paul is refuting the people who claim trying to be justified with grace is a license to sin

that’s what he meant when he said Christ is not a minister of sin.

the law proves us sinners

so while being justified by Christ, technically, we are still sinners

the license to sin lie is just that, a lie

You're right. Grace is not a license to sin. But many do not know the true meaning of grace. It is not unmerited favor; it is divine power given to us without merit. That is why Paul said in Romans 6 that we are dead to sin. And John says in 1 John 3:5 that Jesus takes away our sin. They are referring to our nature being born again and partaking of the divine nature. 2 Peter 1:2-11. We no longer have to be taught the laws of God; they are written by God onto our new nature by the Holy Spirit. We keep them naturally just by following our super-sensitized conscience. So, of course, Jesus is not a "minister of sin;" He takes away our ability to sin to assure we won't. 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18

cc: and @Backlit

 

[TheslightestID]

The Ten are part of the Mosaic Law.

Fine, and Christ said to follow that part of the Mosaic law, the commandments.

 

[CharismaticLady]

Fine, and Christ said to follow that part of the Mosaic law, the commandments.

No, He said to follow HIS commandments. 1 John 3:23

 

[Brakelite]

So Jesus did not fulfill the day of atonement?

funny since he said it was finished,

The day of atonement involved the High Priest entering into the Most Holy Place to sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice before the ark. Jesus had not yet entered the sanctuary until after the resurrection. He said to Mary, touch me not for I have not yet been to My Father. Later, He spoke to Thomas, touch my hands and side. So at some stage in between His conversation with Mary and then Thomas, Jesus went to see the Father. Why? The next stage of the sanctuary system had to meet it's antitype and fulfillment... The wave offering. The feast of first fruits. Now the Passover, the feast of first fruits, and 40 days later, Pentecost, (which couldn't take place until after Jesus entered heaven and poured out His Spirit from there), were all feasts that took place at the beginning of the Jewish religious year, in the spring. Thus Jesus fulfilled them at the beginning of the Christian era.
The autumn feasts, at the end of the Jewish religious year, beginning with the feast of trumpets, then the day of atonement followed by the feast of Tabernacles, all are fulfilled by activity that takes place and is directed by events in heaven, but having significant spiritual repercussions in the lives of God's people on earth. Study the feasts to discover the implications and meaning for Israel, and you will then understand the implications and meaning of the antitypical fulfillments through Christ for the people of God in the end of time... At the end of the Christian era. All significantly pointing to the second coming, followed by the binding of Satan for the 1000 years in the wilderness, and culminating with the descent of the new Jerusalem to the earth, the final complete destruction of sinners and the devil, followed by the creation of the new earth which becomes the inheritance of the saints, where all will keep God's laws in righteousness and peace.
KJV Psalms 105:43-45
43 And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness:
44 And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people;
45 That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.
KJV Isaiah 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
KJV Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
KJV Galatians 3:7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Yet Abraham...
KJV Genesis 26:5
5 because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

God's laws will still be the foundation of His government in the new earth. Obedience then will not be an option, even as it is not an option now. Love does not cast aside the law... It is how the law is honored and fulfilled.

 

[Brakelite]

If the law is of God, true. If not, it is of men.

We ought obey God and not men.

Couldn't agree more. So. According to the Bible, which day is the Lord's day?

 

[Brakelite]

No, He said to follow HIS commandments. 1 John 3:23

KJV 1 John 3:23-24
23 And this is his commandment, That we should believe on the name of his Son Jesus Christ, and love one another, as he gave us commandment.
24 And he that keepeth his commandments dwelleth in him, and he in him. And hereby we know that he abideth in us, by the Spirit which he hath given us.
KJV John 14:15
15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

Totally agree. We are to keep Jesus' Commandments. And John tells us,
KJV 1 John 5:3
3 For this is the love of God, that we keep his commandments: and his commandments are not grievous.

The question though, when everyone realizes our inherent weaknesses and inabilities to obey anything in our own strength, what are we to do? How can we obey, which is clearly and succinctly started throughout the scriptures, when we cannot hope to because of our human sinful fleshly carnal state?
Paul tells us.
KJV Romans 13:8-10
8 Owe no man any thing, but to love one another: for he that loveth another hath fulfilled the law.
9 For this, Thou shalt not commit adultery, Thou shalt not kill, Thou shalt not steal, Thou shalt not bear false witness, Thou shalt not covet; and if there be any other commandment, it is briefly comprehended in this saying, namely, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.
10 Love worketh no ill to his neighbour: therefore love is the fulfilling of the law.

Now that's great. Thing is though, we are still carnal. Love for us in our carnal state is utterly perverted and evil. The modern version of love is displayed in our Mardi gras and our televisions on a daily basis. It is foul and contemptible.
So it cannot be our love. It's got to come from outside of us. Just as salvation and sanctification and everything else must come from above, wherein dwelleth righteousness.
It is our receiving of Christ Himself through His Spirit that we receive His love, that we can then express through our actions... Then we fulfill all the requirements of the law.
Once we have Christ in us, everything we do springs from His love and His grace and power that we through faith embrace.
We keep the spirit of the law through love, we keep the letter of the law through default.
But what of the Sabbath? That's different isn't it? It's still part of the same law, but keeping the Spirit of the Sabbath, resting in Christ, does not automatically result in the keeping of the letter does it? So why is the Sabbath there? This predicament wasn't any different for Israel. They also were obligated to keep the Sabbath, but their obedience contributed to their salvation no more than it does for us. They also were told, the just shall live by faith. It is our faith that rests in Christ who then works in and through us to sanctify and make us holy. It was no different for Israel. They quickly discovered that in their own strength they could not obey. Before Moses was returned from Sinai, just a few days after Israel had declared, "all that the Lord has said, we will do", they were dancing naked around a golden idol.
Abraham we are told kept all God's Commandments, laws, statutes. (Genesis 26). But he also believed God... Which was accounted to him for righteousness. Abraham is our father if we have his faith and if that faith results in the same obedience. So faith does not remove the commandments. Neither does love. The law stands and will continue to stand throughout all eternity. But the Sabbath, that isn't a moral law as such. It's different. Most societies will develop a set of laws more or less similar to the other 9 commandments. But they will never, not in a million years, create a law that obliges them to rest a particular specific day. That law came by Revelation... It is based solely on God's preeminent authority saying, remember to keep My day holy. It was absolutely a sign of Israel's willingness to accept God's sovereignty and authority in their lives. And it was the same for all those who chose to join Israel being strangers. They also were then called to observe the Sabbath. Surrendering to the God of Israel in submission.
That is the decision for the Christian today. Who is your authority? Christ? Or the church who established Sunday? Christ, or yourself who imagine excuses such as "Jesus is my Sabbath rest" imagining that such fulfills the 'Spirit of the Sabbath' thus doing away the necessity of obeying the letter of the 4th Commandment. But it doesn't work that way for the Sabbath. The Sabbath is something you must choose to obey because you recognise God's authority in your life. It's still a sign of allegiance... As it was for Israel, so it is for the stranger now joined to Israel and no longer strangers.
KJV Exodus 20:10
10 But the seventh day is the sabbath of the LORD thy God: in it thou shalt not do any work, thou, nor thy son, nor thy daughter, thy manservant, nor thy maidservant, nor thy cattle, nor thy stranger that is within thy gates:

KJV Ephesians 2:19-22
19 Now therefore ye are no more strangers and foreigners, but fellowcitizens with the saints, and of the household of God;
20 And are built upon the foundation of the apostles and prophets, Jesus Christ himself being the chief corner stone;
21 In whom all the building fitly framed together groweth unto an holy temple in the Lord:
22 In whom ye also are builded together for an habitation of God through the Spirit.


KJV Romans 9:30-33
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.

KJV Romans 9:6-8
6 Not as though the word of God hath taken none effect. For they are not all Israel, which are of Israel:
7 Neither, because they are the seed of Abraham, are they all children: but, In Isaac shall thy seed be called.
8 That is, They which are the children of the flesh, these are not the children of God: but the children of the promise are counted for the seed.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

You're right. Grace is not a license to sin. But many do not know the true meaning of grace. It is not unmerited favor; it is divine power given to us without merit. That is why Paul said in Romans 6 that we are dead to sin. And John says in 1 John 3:5 that Jesus takes away our sin. They are referring to our nature being born again and partaking of the divine nature. 2 Peter 1:2-11. We no longer have to be taught the laws of God; they are written by God onto our new nature by the Holy Spirit. We keep them naturally just by following our super-sensitized conscience. So, of course, Jesus is not a "minister of sin;" He takes away our ability to sin to assure we won't. 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18

cc: and @Backlit

So your sinless?

you keep saying osas can give a license to sin, or that some teach it. When it’s not true. Paul refuted the notion.

being justified by Christ is just that, being justified (declaired righteous or in right standing) by Christ continually. While according to the law you are still a sinner,

Jesus saves us fro. The penalty of sin, and in doing so. Proves his perfect love. So that we who are dead are made alive, we then in turn love because he first loved us

the power over sin is love, not law. The power over sin is humility and grace. not trying to live up to some standard. The power over sin is the knowledge we have eternal life (OSAS) and by this knowledge we can continue to believe, because he continually loves us, so we can love him and others,

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Fine, and Christ said to follow that part of the Mosaic law, the commandments.

The ministry of death written in stone, that only Christ kept?

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The day of atonement involved the High Priest entering into the Most Holy Place to sprinkle the blood of the sacrifice before the ark. Jesus had not yet entered the sanctuary until after the resurrection. He said to Mary, touch me not for I have not yet been to My Father. Later, He spoke to Thomas, touch my hands and side. So at some stage in between His conversation with Mary and then Thomas, Jesus went to see the Father. Why? The next stage of the sanctuary system had to meet it's antitype and fulfillment... The wave offering. The feast of first fruits. Now the Passover, the feast of first fruits, and 40 days later, Pentecost, (which couldn't take place until after Jesus entered heaven and poured out His Spirit from there), were all feasts that took place at the beginning of the Jewish religious year, in the spring. Thus Jesus fulfilled them at the beginning of the Christian era.
The autumn feasts, at the end of the Jewish religious year, beginning with the feast of trumpets, then the day of atonement followed by the feast of Tabernacles, all are fulfilled by activity that takes place and is directed by events in heaven, but having significant spiritual repercussions in the lives of God's people on earth. Study the feasts to discover the implications and meaning for Israel, and you will then understand the implications and meaning of the antitypical fulfillments through Christ for the people of God in the end of time... At the end of the Christian era. All significantly pointing to the second coming, followed by the binding of Satan for the 1000 years in the wilderness, and culminating with the descent of the new Jerusalem to the earth, the final complete destruction of sinners and the devil, followed by the creation of the new earth which becomes the inheritance of the saints, where all will keep God's laws in righteousness and peace.
KJV Psalms 105:43-45
43 And he brought forth his people with joy, and his chosen with gladness:
44 And gave them the lands of the heathen: and they inherited the labour of the people;
45 That they might observe his statutes, and keep his laws. Praise ye the LORD.
KJV Isaiah 66:22-23
22 For as the new heavens and the new earth, which I will make, shall remain before me, saith the LORD, so shall your seed and your name remain.
23 And it shall come to pass, that from one new moon to another, and from one sabbath to another, shall all flesh come to worship before me, saith the LORD.
KJV Revelation 14:12
12 Here is the patience of the saints: here are they that keep the commandments of God, and the faith of Jesus.
KJV Galatians 3:7
7 Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.
Yet Abraham...
KJV Genesis 26:5
5 because that Abraham obeyed my voice, and kept my charge, my commandments, my statutes, and my laws.

God's laws will still be the foundation of His government in the new earth. Obedience then will not be an option, even as it is not an option now. Love does not cast aside the law... It is how the law is honored and fulfilled.

Jesus blood was spilt on the alter. He said it was finished. Literally paid in full.

the curtain which seperated the inner room (most holy place) was torn, proving the atonement was completed never again would a high priest need to enter the most holy place to offer atonement for sin by the blood of bulls and goat whch could never take away sin. for it is finished,

your reading way to much into things my friend

 

[Eternally Grateful]

Couldn't agree more. So. According to the Bible, which day is the Lord's day?

Some believe it is one day, some offer every day. We are to not judge concerning sabbaths,

the day of rest is day 7, A day of rest is just that. In 6 days god works, in 7 days he rested,

most of you sabbath followers do not even keep it yourself according to the law of Moses. So it is funny how you keep pushing people.

follow the law of love man, you will not fulfill the lust of the flesh when you do this,

 

[theefaith]

Actually it's the only nation that matter to God (1 Peter 2:9)

A kingdom and a nation
Lk 1:32-33

1. 1 Peter 2:9
   But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

 

[TheslightestID]

No, He said to follow HIS commandments. 1 John 3:23

Surely you are aware of the following scriptue, so naturally it concerns me that you would act as if it wasn't there. I mean Christ is clearly stating, "Keep the commandments" then he gives a few examples. Then shortly after that, he gave his 2 commandments, in which all the law hangs, meaning all the law is contained within his 2 commandments.

It's not just you, but it worries me when people in general use the fact Jesus gave his two commandments to us, to prove we no longer need to be concerned about tbe ten, when it is clear, the new commandments, if we follow them, we will be following the ten, not doing away with them.

IOW, "Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself." one of Christs 2 commandments basically means if we love our neighbor as ourselves , we will not steal, kill, lie, commit adultry, and so forth against them.

Matthew 19:16-17
King James Version

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

A kingdom and a nation
Lk 1:32-33

1. 1 Peter 2:9
   But ye are a chosen generation, a royal priesthood, an holy nation, a peculiar people; that ye should shew forth the praises of him who hath called you out of darkness into his marvellous light;

Once again, that was written to saved Jews

 

[TheslightestID]

The ministry of death written in stone, that only Christ kept?

The following entails Christ stating we need to keep the commandments in order to get to heaven, so are you saying Christ was wrong to expect that effort of us? Or are you denying Christs said to keep the commandments?

Matthew 19:16-17
King James Version

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I uderstand that if you are a new christian, you may not aware that God knew we would not keep those commandments perfectly, so just as sacrifices were required in the old days for forgiveness of our sin, God sent Christ to be the ultimate sacrifice so we could get forgiveness.

So, that covers the part of your comment, that only Christ could keep the commandments. All we need do is make a serious effort, and if we mess up, we ask forgiveness, the sacrifice has already beem made. It's basically always been that way, all that changed is the sacrifice. This is what the Gospel is about, It's all right there in the new testament.

 

[TheslightestID]

So, of course, Jesus is not a "minister of sin;" He takes away our ability to sin to assure we won't. 1 John 3:9; 1 John 5:18

No, he does not take away our ability to sin....not even close. He may cause us to not want to sin because of the great sacrifice he made for us, that showed us how much he loved us, but I assure you, just because we are saved doesnt mean anyone will stop sinning completely. Sin is expected by God , and the only reason Christ/God saw to it there was a ultimate sacrifice for sin.

 

[Eternally Grateful]

The following entails Christ stating we need to keep the commandments in order to get to heaven, so are you saying Christ was wrong to expect that effort of us? Or are you denying Christs said to keep the commandments?

Matthew 19:16-17
King James Version

16 And, behold, one came and said unto him, Good Master, what good thing shall I do, that I may have eternal life?

17 And he said unto him, Why callest thou me good? there is none good but one, that is, God: but if thou wilt enter into life, keep the commandments.

I uderstand that if you are a new christian, you may not aware that God knew we would not keep those commandments perfectly, so just as sacrifices were required in the old days for forgiveness of our sin, God sent Christ to be the ultimate sacrifice so we could get forgiveness.

So, that covers the part of your comment, that only Christ could keep the commandments. All we need do is make a serious effort, and if we mess up, we ask forgiveness, the sacrifice has already beem made. It's basically always been that way, all that changed is the sacrifice. This is what the Gospel is about, It's all right there in the new testament.

why did you cut off the conversation?

the person said he obeyed all since birth, Jesus said he missed just one things. Here let me show you


21 Jesus said to him, “If you want to be perfect,go, sell what you have and give to the poor, and you will have treasure in heaven; and come, follow Me.”

22 But when the young man heard that saying, he went away sorrowful, for he had great possessions.


Your right, if you want to earn salvation you. UST obey all the commands, this guy thought he did but Jesus knew his heart.

Jesus tried to show him he broke the first command. But they guy failed to see it

he was not led by the schoolmaster or he would have freely chosen Christ, and not asked what he needed to do.

the answer is there is nothing you can do