Jesus left us with the assignment to make disciples,

[Robert Gwin]

?

I am attempting to reconcile your actions with the speech I’ve heard from JW including yourself and others at Kingdom Halls.

Is this man your friend?
Do you love him? (in a platanic way obviously)
What about his existing beliefs do you celebrate?
If he were to get married at his church, would you go?
How do you serve him? I’m not asking preaching at him.

Very honorable and honest questions Jane, thank you for asking me maam. I will say that I am disfellowshipped, so I am not your "token" witness but I will explain it as best I can. As you mentioned, Jesus is mostly seen in association with those who were not strong in the faith. Keep in mind however the only ones he did actually associate with were in the faith maam, but the leaders of the faith considered them amaharets, basically as dust.

Modern day Jehovah's witnesses are encouraged to have only Jehovah's witnesses as their close associates, since most will not associate with me, and we have a great need created into us to be social, then I have to turn outside the congregation for friendship. But to answer your questions, even when I was in good standing, yes this man is my friend, and I take friendship very seriously. I do love him, and have made sacrifices for him, and he for me. I celebrate none of his beliefs. And if I was invited to his wedding I would go, even if in a church. I would not pray with them, nor participate in anything of religious connotation. I associate with him, and have helped him with home projects. Yes I bear testimony to him if the opportunity presents itself, but he does not respond.

I believe most of the studies I have had with others were actually with worldly friends, rather than those I met while in the ministry. It is at least 50% anyway. Unless someone is hateful toward those of my faith, I am perfectly willing to be friends with them, but I will never partake in false worship. This basically describes me, as it should all Christians maam: (1 Corinthians 9:19-23) . . .For though I am free from all people, I have made myself the slave to all, so that I may gain as many people as possible. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. 21 To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some. 23 But I do all things for the sake of the good news, in order to share it with others.

 

[stunnedbygrace]

You do not call your faith the Church of Jesus Christ of latter day Saints for nothing maam. What I stated is fact. If you do not believe what your faith teaches I cannot help that, but the Mormon faith believes that Jesus is God, and worship him as such. Now I am willing to look at any evidence you have to the contrary for sure, and if I am in error you will certainly get an apology.

A very large portion of Christian denominations also believe Jesus is God in human form…I’d guess the majority believe it, but I could be wrong on that.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

A very large portion of Christian denominations also believe Jesus is God in human form…I’d guess the majority believe it, but I could be wrong on that.

The only denomination that denies Christ’s divinity is the JW.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Very honorable and honest questions Jane, thank you for asking me maam. I will say that I am disfellowshipped, so I am not your "token" witness but I will explain it as best I can. As you mentioned, Jesus is mostly seen in association with those who were not strong in the faith. Keep in mind however the only ones he did actually associate with were in the faith maam, but the leaders of the faith considered them amaharets, basically as dust.

Modern day Jehovah's witnesses are encouraged to have only Jehovah's witnesses as their close associates, since most will not associate with me, and we have a great need created into us to be social, then I have to turn outside the congregation for friendship. But to answer your questions, even when I was in good standing, yes this man is my friend, and I take friendship very seriously. I do love him, and have made sacrifices for him, and he for me. I celebrate none of his beliefs. And if I was invited to his wedding I would go, even if in a church. I would not pray with them, nor participate in anything of religious connotation. I associate with him, and have helped him with home projects. Yes I bear testimony to him if the opportunity presents itself, but he does not respond.

I believe most of the studies I have had with others were actually with worldly friends, rather than those I met while in the ministry. It is at least 50% anyway. Unless someone is hateful toward those of my faith, I am perfectly willing to be friends with them, but I will never partake in false worship. This basically describes me, as it should all Christians maam: (1 Corinthians 9:19-23) . . .For though I am free from all people, I have made myself the slave to all, so that I may gain as many people as possible. 20 To the Jews I became as a Jew in order to gain Jews; to those under law I became as under law, though I myself am not under law, in order to gain those under law. 21 To those without law I became as without law, although I am not without law toward God but under law toward Christ, in order to gain those without law. 22 To the weak I became weak, in order to gain the weak. I have become all things to people of all sorts, so that I might by all possible means save some. 23 But I do all things for the sake of the good news, in order to share it with others.

?!?!

Ok, there’s a ton of things here I could and want to talk about. You are the only person remotely connected to JW that…is like talking to an actual person, thoughtful, and honest.

I’m going to filter my million questions down to the one most important one: do you feel that Christ Himself would shut His door to you today?

 

[Robert Gwin]

A very large portion of Christian denominations also believe Jesus is God in human form…I’d guess the majority believe it, but I could be wrong on that.

You are correct Grace, the majority do, and they refer to it as the trinity (triune god). But being a requirement for salvation, you have to know God Jn 17:3; 2 Thes 1:6-9

 

[Robert Gwin]

?!?!

Ok, there’s a ton of things here I could and want to talk about. You are the only person remotely connected to JW that…is like talking to an actual person, thoughtful, and honest.

I’m going to filter my million questions down to the one most important one: do you feel that Christ Himself would shut His door to you today?

No maam, in fact the very same thing happened to him. But the key is I did not apostatize, if I left off following Jesus and did not repent, yes I would be rejected. Like what happened to Jesus, some elders falsely accused me without witnesses and formed a Judicial committee and disfellowshipped me. Thankfully they no longer execute, or like my mentor I would be long gone.

Disfellowshipping is proper and a loving arrangement that is one of God's commandments found in the Bible Jane:
(2 John 9-11) . . .Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works. . .
(1 Corinthians 5:9-13) . . .In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

It is a loving protection for the congregation, and loving to the violator as like the prodical son, a lack of spiritual association might move one to realize how much better their life was serving God.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

No maam, in fact the very same thing happened to him. But the key is I did not apostatize, if I left off following Jesus and did not repent, yes I would be rejected. Like what happened to Jesus, some elders falsely accused me without witnesses and formed a Judicial committee and disfellowshipped me. Thankfully they no longer execute, or like my mentor I would be long gone.

Disfellowshipping is proper and a loving arrangement that is one of God's commandments found in the Bible Jane:
(2 John 9-11) . . .Everyone who pushes ahead and does not remain in the teaching of the Christ does not have God. The one who does remain in this teaching is the one who has both the Father and the Son. 10 If anyone comes to you and does not bring this teaching, do not receive him into your homes or say a greeting to him. 11 For the one who says a greeting to him is a sharer in his wicked works. . .
(1 Corinthians 5:9-13) . . .In my letter I wrote you to stop keeping company with sexually immoral people, 10 not meaning entirely with the sexually immoral people of this world or the greedy people or extortioners or idolaters. Otherwise, you would actually have to get out of the world. 11 But now I am writing you to stop keeping company with anyone called a brother who is sexually immoral or a greedy person or an idolater or a reviler or a drunkard or an extortioner, not even eating with such a man. 12 For what do I have to do with judging those outside? Do you not judge those inside, 13 while God judges those outside? “Remove the wicked person from among yourselves.”

It is a loving protection for the congregation, and loving to the violator as like the prodical son, a lack of spiritual association might move one to realize how much better their life was serving God.

Let me recap to make sure I got things correct here (please correct me on any errors because I'm guessing on part of it)--

- The JW elders lied about you
- They slammed your doors on you in the opposite of Christ-like fashion
- They ignored your explanations of truth
- They ordered congregation members to do the same and penalize those that do not (second part is a guess).
- They forced you to only "associate" with "sinners" to satisfy the foundational human need for fellowship. I'm using quotes here because I disagree with these labels.
- They did even worse to your mentor and executed him. I'm not sure the specifics of what you men here, but it sounds pretty dang bad.

And yet you still believe that this organization teaches people to pursue Truth and love as Christ did/does?

 

[Robert Gwin]

Let me recap to make sure I got things correct here (please correct me on any errors because I'm guessing on part of it)--

- The JW elders lied about you
- They slammed your doors on you in the opposite of Christ-like fashion
- They ignored your explanations of truth
- They ordered congregation members to do the same and penalize those that do not (second part is a guess).
- They forced you to only "associate" with "sinners" to satisfy the foundational human need for fellowship. I'm using quotes here because I disagree with these labels.
- They did even worse to your mentor and executed him. I'm not sure the specifics of what you men here, but it sounds pretty dang bad.

And yet you still believe that this organization teaches people to pursue Truth and love as Christ did/does?

I am one of Jehovah's witnesses Jane, because I examined the evidence of identity in the Bible. Do you believe God expects us to gather with His people and not be able to identify them? If that was the case, if He is a God of Justice, then His rules must be spelled out. Now of course I could be identifying it incorrectly, but am willing to discuss the Bible's identification if you so desire. Perhaps you might do so maam.

Keep in mind, we are imperfect people, and most of us try our best to serve God without hypocrisy, and some with malice, as we have always been plagued with. You were aware that it was God's covenanted people who rejected Jesus correct? That never changes, while most of God's people are very sincere in doing God's will, others among us have their own agenda. I can only speak what happened to me, and you either believe it or not. Frankly if it happened to one of my brothers or sisters, I would likely believe the elders over them before this happened to me, so I truly do not expect others to believe me, and in truth it doesn't matter, as I as well as they have to stand before our God. I will continue to serve Him as my dear brothers did when the elders of the faith told them to quit preaching, Acts 5:29, I will obey God above man maam.

Keep in mind though, disfellowshipping is God's way of cleansing His congregation, there is nothing wrong with that, and it is a very loving arrangement on His part when done as He required.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

I am one of Jehovah's witnesses Jane, because I examined the evidence of identity in the Bible. Do you believe God expects us to gather with His people and not be able to identify them? If that was the case, if He is a God of Justice, then His rules must be spelled out. Now of course I could be identifying it incorrectly, but am willing to discuss the Bible's identification if you so desire. Perhaps you might do so maam.

Keep in mind, we are imperfect people, and most of us try our best to serve God without hypocrisy, and some with malice, as we have always been plagued with. You were aware that it was God's covenanted people who rejected Jesus correct? That never changes, while most of God's people are very sincere in doing God's will, others among us have their own agenda. I can only speak what happened to me, and you either believe it or not. Frankly if it happened to one of my brothers or sisters, I would likely believe the elders over them before this happened to me, so I truly do not expect others to believe me, and in truth it doesn't matter, as I as well as they have to stand before our God. I will continue to serve Him as my dear brothers did when the elders of the faith told them to quit preaching, Acts 5:29, I will obey God above man maam.

Keep in mind though, disfellowshipping is God's way of cleansing His congregation, there is nothing wrong with that, and it is a very loving arrangement on His part when done as He required.

I’ve rewritten the post again and again, trying to figure out what best to say. Im an evidence driven person, looking at the whole package. Not just a person’s ability to ramble off scripture- even the devil does that! And when I see the fruits I hear from your story (see #67), this post I’m responding to, and I saw firsthand in Kingdom Halls… this screams it’s identity and it’s modern day Pharisees. Yes, tons of rules, tons of quoting scripture, tons of following humans leaders, tons of shunning others, and despite all of that good intentions: they have lost God.

My heart aches for you. And I know you aren’t going to change your mind, and I’m not going to try to force you. I just cry. And pray.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I’ve rewritten the post again and again, trying to figure out what best to say. Im an evidence driven person, looking at the whole package. Not just a person’s ability to ramble off scripture- even the devil does that! And when I see the fruits I hear from your story (see #67), this post I’m responding to, and I saw firsthand in Kingdom Halls… this screams it’s identity and it’s modern day Pharisees. Yes, tons of rules, tons of quoting scripture, tons of following humans leaders, tons of shunning others, and despite all of that good intentions: they have lost God.

My heart aches for you. And I know you aren’t going to change your mind, and I’m not going to try to force you. I just cry. And pray.

What does the Kingdom hall have to do with anything maam? Yes the devil knows Scripture well, but so do Christ's disciples, and we use it to make full proof of our ministry 2 Tim 4:5. One either accepts the Bible's message or not, and of course what I say may very well be incorrect, you have to determine in your honest evaluation the validity of my comments.

What we teach in the Kingdom halls does "scream of our identity" for sure. How might Isa 2:2-4 help you to see the identity of God's people maam? Consider, has the faith of Jehovah's witnesses been gathered in the last days? Do they worship the God of Jacob? Are they receiving instruction in God's ways? Are they actually living what they are learning, walking in His paths? Do they go out and invite others to come to Jehovah's mountain to be instructed in His ways? Have they beat their swords into plowshares learning war no more?

Please consider it honestly as there are many identifying statements in that passage alone that narrows down the identity of God's people correct Jane?

Who do you know that meet that criteria, please be honest, I will listen.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

What does the Kingdom hall have to do with anything maam? Yes the devil knows Scripture well, but so do Christ's disciples, and we use it to make full proof of our ministry 2 Tim 4:5. One either accepts the Bible's message or not, and of course what I say may very well be incorrect, you have to determine in your honest evaluation the validity of my comments.

What we teach in the Kingdom halls does "scream of our identity" for sure. How might Isa 2:2-4 help you to see the identity of God's people maam? Consider, has the faith of Jehovah's witnesses been gathered in the last days? Do they worship the God of Jacob? Are they receiving instruction in God's ways? Are they actually living what they are learning, walking in His paths? Do they go out and invite others to come to Jehovah's mountain to be instructed in His ways? Have they beat their swords into plowshares learning war no more?

Please consider it honestly as there are many identifying statements in that passage alone that narrows down the identity of God's people correct Jane?

Who do you know that meet that criteria, please be honest, I will listen.

Rather than trying to address this whole elephant in one bite, I'm going to focus this down to one specific sub-topic for an example: loving your neighbor.

I love each one of my neighbors. I have many dear friends (in fact most of my friends) that are other other denominations. I also have friends that are ex-members of my denomination. I love all of them without anything held back. Despite our theological difference, there is much about each person and their faith I openly admire. Obviously not every part, but there are many good parts I can & do celebrate. I've happily attended services at their church, and happily invited them to mine.

I don't see them as damned or lost or "running off a cliff" or anything like that -- I already know that they love God. When I share the Gospel with them, it's not because I fear that they are dead, but because I'm sharing something that makes me incredibly joyful and I want to share it with loved ones. And if Ann becomes a better different disciple of Christ — then that’s awesome! The fact that she does so while still being a Baptist doesn’t change my celebration.

And of course I’m happy to serve each of my neighbors without a single word uttered about faith. Example, this weekend we fixed my atheist friend’s bathroom. Which is just good.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Rather than trying to address this whole elephant in one bite, I'm going to focus this down to one specific sub-topic for an example: loving your neighbor.

I love each one of my neighbors. I have many dear friends (in fact most of my friends) that are other other denominations. I also have friends that are ex-members of my denomination. I love all of them without anything held back. Despite our theological difference, there is much about each person and their faith I openly admire. Obviously not every part, but there are many good parts I can & do celebrate. I've happily attended services at their church, and happily invited them to mine.

I don't see them as damned or lost or "running off a cliff" or anything like that -- I already know that they love God. When I share the Gospel with them, it's not because I fear that they are dead, but because I'm sharing something that makes me incredibly joyful and I want to share it with loved ones. And if Ann becomes a better different disciple of Christ — then that’s awesome! The fact that she does so while still being a Baptist doesn’t change my celebration.

And of course I’m happy to serve each of my neighbors without a single word uttered about faith. Example, this weekend we fixed my atheist friend’s bathroom. Which is just good.

Yes maam, loving one's neighbor is a major requirement for Christians. Jesus gave an illustration of who your neighbor is, and likely you and I will agree that it is all people in the world. At any rate, even if you consider others from different nationalities not to be your neighbor, you will likely agree that we are to treat them the way we desire to be treated, which of course is an act of love.

So what is love? Jesus defined it best as saying: (John 15:13, 14) . . .No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you. Is that the kind of love he was talking about for our neighbor? Not really maam, as you can see they are friends if they are Jesus' disciples, your brothers and sisters in the faith. But Christians recognize the truth of Gal 6:10 which states: as long as we have the opportunity, let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to us in the faith. That is Christian love of neighbor maam, we work good toward them. True Christians even spend their time, talents, and treasures in reaching them with the good news of the Kingdom so that they too might have a relationship with God and have real life unending Rom 10:14,15 what love that truly is.

Since true Christians actually do love their neighbor at all times, may I ask what the action is by those of your faith during the time of war, do they go to kill others in combat? That too is an identification of God's people maam 2 Tim 2:24; 2 Cor 10:3,4

Real love is supported by real actions.

You seem to be against disfellowshipping, do you believe God unwise for requiring it maam? I see it as a very loving arrangement.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Yes maam, loving one's neighbor is a major requirement for Christians. Jesus gave an illustration of who your neighbor is, and likely you and I will agree that it is all people in the world. At any rate, even if you consider others from different nationalities not to be your neighbor, you will likely agree that we are to treat them the way we desire to be treated, which of course is an act of love.

So what is love? Jesus defined it best as saying: (John 15:13, 14) . . .No one has love greater than this, that someone should surrender his life in behalf of his friends. 14 You are my friends if you do what I am commanding you. Is that the kind of love he was talking about for our neighbor? Not really maam, as you can see they are friends if they are Jesus' disciples, your brothers and sisters in the faith. But Christians recognize the truth of Gal 6:10 which states: as long as we have the opportunity, let us work what is good toward all, but especially toward those related to us in the faith. That is Christian love of neighbor maam, we work good toward them. True Christians even spend their time, talents, and treasures in reaching them with the good news of the Kingdom so that they too might have a relationship with God and have real life unending Rom 10:14,15 what love that truly is.

Since true Christians actually do love their neighbor at all times, may I ask what the action is by those of your faith during the time of war, do they go to kill others in combat? That too is an identification of God's people maam 2 Tim 2:24; 2 Cor 10:3,4

Real love is supported by real actions.

You seem to be against disfellowshipping, do you believe God unwise for requiring it maam? I see it as a very loving arrangement.

You said you wanted to listen. And then you completely ignored my post… I am frustrated.

 

[Robert Gwin]

You said you wanted to listen. And then you completely ignored my post… I am frustrated.

Your post was about loving your neighbor, correct? Was not my reply in full agreement and going one even further in love of neighbor?

If you were promoting interfaith as being appropriate, then you will need to offer scriptural support for that maam.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Your post was about loving your neighbor, correct? Was not my reply in full agreement and going one even further in love of neighbor?

If you were promoting interfaith as being appropriate, then you will need to offer scriptural support for that maam.

True Christians love their neighbor, regardless of their denomination. I’m gave you some examples for my life.

Can you give me examples of how JW children are encouraged to have friends with non-JW?
How you see, love, and celebrate the good parts of a non-JW person’s faith?
How you serve members of the community with not a word said about faith?
How when you do preach, you see that person’s worth and love them even as they are today?

 

[Robert Gwin]

True Christians love their neighbor, regardless of their denomination. I’m gave you some examples for my life.

Can you give me examples of how JW children are encouraged to have friends with non-JW?
How you see, love, and celebrate the good parts of a non-JW person’s faith?
How you serve members of the community with not a word said about faith?
How when you do preach, you see that person’s worth and love them even as they are today?

Jesus associated only with those of his own faith maam, worshippers of his God. True he associated with the lowly ones of the faith primarily, and as Christians we choose our associates carefully:
(1 Corinthians 15:33) . . .Do not be misled. Bad associations spoil useful habits. . .

(2 Corinthians 6:14-17) . . .Do not become unevenly yoked with unbelievers. For what fellowship do righteousness and lawlessness have? Or what sharing does light have with darkness? 15 Further, what harmony is there between Christ and Beʹli·al? Or what does a believer share in common with an unbeliever? 16 And what agreement does God’s temple have with idols? For we are a temple of a living God; just as God said: “I will reside among them and walk among them, and I will be their God, and they will be my people.” 17 “‘Therefore, get out from among them, and separate yourselves,’ says Jehovah, ‘and quit touching the unclean thing’”; “‘and I will take you in.’”

(2 Timothy 3:1-6) . . .know this, that in the last days critical times hard to deal with will be here. 2 For men will be lovers of themselves, lovers of money, boastful, haughty, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, disloyal, 3 having no natural affection, not open to any agreement, slanderers, without self-control, fierce, without love of goodness, 4 betrayers, headstrong, puffed up with pride, lovers of pleasures rather than lovers of God, 5 having an appearance of godliness but proving false to its power; and from these turn away. 6 From among these arise men who slyly work their way into households and captivate weak women loaded down with sins, led by various desires,

Of course we Christians would never select close associates who serve other gods, or try to pull us from God, why would you think that to be acceptable Jane? True love is obeying Jesus and presenting them with knowing all the things he commanded Mat 28:19,20 so they too can get on the road to life. Perhaps their welfare is not quite as important to you as you lead us to believe. Do you want them to know God and Jesus? We do, that is why we speak to others about our hope. So what is true love, association or looking out for ones salvation?

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Jesus associated only with those of his own faith maam, worshippers of his God. True he associated with the lowly ones of the faith primarily, and as Christians we choose our associates l?

Nonsense! He hung out with sinners, tax-collectors, and Samaritans!

Rather than following the two Great Commandments and doing what Christ does, you twist the Bible to justify entirely abandoning the Second Great Commandment and focusing on saving your own skin.

I’m sorry Robert, but you keep giving more and more evidence that the Watchtower organization is not of God. And the more and more talk, the more tempted I am to say “and JW aren’t even Christian”— and I’m a person that acknowledges everyone’s relationship with Christ, no matter the quality of thier theology.

Please, flee from this.

 

[Robert Gwin]

Nonsense! He hung out with sinners, tax-collectors, and Samaritans!

Rather than following the two Great Commandments and doing what Christ does, you twist the Bible to justify entirely abandoning the Second Great Commandment and focusing on saving your own skin.

I’m sorry Robert, but you keep giving more and more evidence that the Watchtower organization is not of God. And the more and more talk, the more tempted I am to say “and JW aren’t even Christian”— and I’m a person that acknowledges everyone’s relationship with Christ, no matter the quality of thier theology.

Please, flee from this.

Do you have scriptural proof of this maam? I think you will find that I am correct if you do further research. Perhaps you might give an example of where we "twist" Scripture.

 

[Jane_Doe22]

Do you have scriptural proof of this maam? I think you will find that I am correct if you do further research. Perhaps you might give an example of where we "twist" Scripture.

I literally just did.

 

[Robert Gwin]

I literally just did.

Strange, I believe we have been discussing love of neighbor correct? That is scriptural, but you are indicating that teaching others to observe all the things Jesus commanded Mat 28:20 is not the greatest act of love one can do. I ask you for Scriptural evidence as to why you think providing a meal, or associating with one of another faith is more important than their everlasting well being? It may be that you truly do not know what love is, do you have children Jane?