Jesus never said he was God Almighty

[101G]

I'm not denying the resurrection. The resurrected body of Christ was the same body that died. Again, (John 20:27)

Stranger

did you not hear, 1 Corinthians 15:37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain".

Look I know what you're trying to say, Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have".

but iI ask you to consider this before you run with that. Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men."

and in the Resurrection, there is no blood.

PCY.

 

[Stranger]

did you not hear, 1 Corinthians 15:37 "And that which thou sowest, thou sowest not that body that shall be, but bare grain, it may chance of wheat, or of some other grain".

Look I know what you're trying to say, Luke 24:39 "Behold my hands and my feet, that it is I myself: handle me, and see; for a spirit hath not flesh and bones, as ye see me have".

but iI ask you to consider this before you run with that. Philippians 2:7 "But made himself of no reputation, and took upon him the form of a servant, and was made in the likeness of men."

and in the Resurrection, there is no blood.

PCY.

Yes, the resurrection body will have no blood. But the body of Jesus Christ was the same body that died. I don't see how that (Phillipians 2:7) argues against that.

Stranger

 

[101G]

To you have thing about twisting my writings...this time you actually applied an explanation of a verse I gave to another verse I supplied...Do you have some problems reading? Or do you actually TAKE THE TIME TO READ?

Look what you did....these are your words which I bolded...

"let the record speaK. John 17:5 "And now, O Father, glorify thou me with thine own self with the glory which I had with thee before the world was".

with thee before the world was?" SO THE LORD JESUS WAS "WITH" GOD BEFORE THE BEGINNING.

this is a modern translation of the term God, and back up by scripture.

so that "it's a poor translation", won't work. not on me. that's only is a deception, a deceiver. "

John 17:5 does not have a poor translation or wording problem...it was the Micah verse I was addressing to @brakelite ....

John 17:5 is CLEAR that on God's plan for mankind's salvation, included Jesus' glorification = planned before Christ was born. Jesus knew of this and prayed it would come very quickly...he was anxious...

I need an apology from you as you have done this trickery to me more than once....

APAK

first thanks for the reply.

#1. U said, "To you have thing about twisting my writings". No, it's just you twisting the word of God.

#2. U said, "John 17:5 does not have a poor translation or wording problem...it was the Micah verse I was addressing to". see that's your problem... you say, "it's a poor translation" , make no difference what YOU say you're not MY final authority... you don't even understand what you're saying. the Micah 5:2 prove the everlasting nature of the Lord Jesus for he is God, I just use John 17 to back that up which you failed to see.

now let me give you an insight on planning BY GOD. the plan was befor your very own simple eyes. listen up WHERE was Eve when God Formed Adam? the answer in him, the man. see she was there all along just not yet MANIFESTED.

you read God word with carnal understanding, me, I read God word with his Wisdom.

and by you reading God word with carnal understand that why you say "that's a poor translation".

understand something, 1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

see, that why you always complain that the translation is poor, no it's just you cannot understand Spiritual things.

conclusion, no apology is in order here. and as for any tricky you did it to yourself.

Now I suggest you get a King James Bible and I'll help you in the word if you like.

PCY.

as the Holy Ghost said through the apostle Paul, Romans 1:13 "Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles".

 

[101G]

Yes, the resurrection body will have no blood. But the body of Jesus Christ was the same body that died. I don't see how that (Phillipians 2:7) argues against that.

Stranger

is that the same body in likeness, meaning visually to the eye, and touch or substance? meaning particular kind of matter with uniform properties.

PCY

 

[APAK]

first thanks for the reply.

#1. U said, "To you have thing about twisting my writings". No, it's just you twisting the word of God.

#2. U said, "John 17:5 does not have a poor translation or wording problem...it was the Micah verse I was addressing to". see that's your problem... you say, "it's a poor translation" , make no difference what YOU say you're not MY final authority... you don't even understand what you're saying. the Micah 5:2 prove the everlasting nature of the Lord Jesus for he is God, I just use John 17 to back that up which you failed to see.

now let me give you an insight on planning BY GOD. the plan was befor your very own simple eyes. listen up WHERE was Eve when God Formed Adam? the answer in him, the man. see she was there all along just not yet MANIFESTED.

you read God word with carnal understanding, me, I read God word with his Wisdom.

and by you reading God word with carnal understand that why you say "that's a poor translation".

understand something, 1 Corinthians 2:13 "Which things also we speak, not in the words which man's wisdom teacheth, but which the Holy Ghost teacheth; comparing spiritual things with spiritual.

1 Corinthians 2:14 "But the natural man receiveth not the things of the Spirit of God: for they are foolishness unto him: neither can he know them, because they are spiritually discerned.

see, that why you always complain that the translation is poor, no it's just you cannot understand Spiritual things.

conclusion, no apology is in order here. and as for any tricky you did it to yourself.

Now I suggest you get a King James Bible and I'll help you in the word if you like.

PCY.

as the Holy Ghost said through the apostle Paul, Romans 1:13 "Now I would not have you ignorant, brethren, that oftentimes I purposed to come unto you, (but was let hitherto,) that I might have some fruit among you also, even as among other Gentiles".

You are an annoying and a very confused person. I feel sorry for you.
Have you seriously read your posts and the last one you wrote to me. It is a bunch of illogical fragmented thoughts and part sentences...

I have had enough of these responses from you, so please do not tag onto my posts and reply to them IN THE FUTURE.

I hope you can be so kind and and have the decency to honor my request.

Bye

APAK

 

[APAK]

I know this was a reply to brakelite, but I felt I needed to say something about it.

Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.

8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” - Rev 1:7-8

Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.

17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. - Rev 1:12-18

We see here in Revelation that Jesus makes the claim that he is the first and the last. You may question whether it is Jesus speaking in verse 8 along with God the Father, but he repeats it in verse 17. And again Jesus repeats it in Rev 22:12-13:

"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”

So I do not think you can biblically prove that Jesus "did not exist before his birth. He's just said that he did.
In fact in Revelation 22 we see that the Throne of God is actually the Throne of the Lamb as well:

Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. - Rev 22:1-5

Then half way through the paragraph it starts talking about them as one!
These two points alone should have you rethinking whether or not the bible calls us to worship Jesus!

Naomi: Hello again..

Let’s look at all these 3 scripture passages in your post:

(Rev 1:4) John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
(Rev 1:5) and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
(Rev 1:6) and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(Rev 1:7) Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
(Rev 1:8) “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (ALL ESV)

The problem that most folks have in just reading verse 8 or even verse 7 and 8, they cherry-pick and short-change themselves, on purpose. They quickly forget to look at the entire context, the audience and especially who is the passage of scripture really from.

Who is the passage from? So, go back and read verse 4. Who is, “from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, mean? It is God Almighty, NOT Jesus. Jesus is mentioned and introduced in verse 5, right?

In verse 8, Who is, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.?” It is the other book end of the thought of this passage of scripture. It is no other than God Almighty. It is NOT Jesus. God Almighty started the conversation, and then ended it.

Note: In a few others Bible translations. including the KJV the “God” is missing after the word “Lord” in verse 8. There are those that attempt to capitalize on this difference and argue in futility that because of this missing ‘God’ it must be Jesus. As you can see, it is another lost cause and a waste of time.

(Rev 1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.(KJV)

Why twist such a good piece of scripture to fit an agenda is beyond me. Unless one has gone too far in pride and must force their belief model in any place they can no matter what the cost.

No, there is no pre-existent Jesus found here, and there is no evidence of Jesus = God either.

Next scripture….

(Rev 1:17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (ESV)

This expression in verse 17, “the first and the last” does apply to Jesus without any question. But what does it mean, as “Alpha and Omega.”

Now there are 2x the first expression of verse 17 is used for God Almighty in the OT and 3x in the NT for Jesus, the Christ.

Trinitarians love to boldly assume and simply say without any inspired logic that because the expression of “the first and the last” applied to God in the OT and it applied(s) to Jesus in the NT then Jesus = God. Can you see the foolishness of this claim?

In Isaiah 41:4 “the first, and with the last; I am.” It is of God Almighty being with the generation of people from the beginning of human creation or even before that time. There’s that ‘I am he’ expression again as I discussed earlier.

(Isa 41:4) Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. (ESV)

God Almighty was the one who called out the generations in the OT. Today, Jesus has this authority, given by his Father. Therefore, we have Jesus being labeled with the same expression as what was uniquely given to his Father. Jesus will be calling out his generations of believers from the ‘grave’ in the future, to eternal life, NOT his Father.

There’s no pre-existent Jesus or Jesus = God to be found here.

Now for the last passage of scripture you posed..

(Rev 22:9) but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
(Rev 22:10) And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
(Rev 22:11) Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”
(Rev 22:12) “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
(Rev 22:13) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (ALL ESV)

First, I give the same basic explanation of verse 13 here as the same one I already gave when Jesus is called “the Alpha and Omega” in this same book. With added reasons…

In verse 13 Jesus expresses himself in three ways for extreme emphasis, so the reader will have no doubt that Jesus has the authority of God given by him; he is the Lord and savior that will bring forth the generation of believers from death to eternal life. He is the father and creator and the only King of the new Kingdom.

Note: in verse 9, WE WORSHIP GOD not Jesus.

Again, no place here found for a pre-existent Jesus or Jesus = God

Is there any other place you want me to address?

Have a great day,

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Stranger]

is that the same body in likeness, meaning visually to the eye, and touch or substance? meaning particular kind of matter with uniform properties.

PCY

It is the same body that took the nails and the spear.

Stranger

 

[101G]

This will be the Last time posting in this topic. the OP requested me not to post to his topic anymore.

No, this is not the same body, only the images of the body of the nail and spear prints are visible.

and here's why it's not the SAME body. this body walks through the walls, could the body that came out of Mary walk through walls NO. this body appears and disappears at will in nature, can the body that came out of Mary do that NO. so no, this is not the same body in substance.

PCY.

if you want to continue this conversation, I'll be posting to the topic "Diversified Oneness".

PCY

 

[APAK]

@101G ..I do not control or want to squelch your voice. I just said I do not want my posts being tagged by you as you have, and replied that has caused me consternation. I wanted to answer you although you are too eager to rebut with language that is very confusing. I cannot continue responding to you.

You can speak to @Stranger or anyone else...It's not my SITE and not my call its yours

Thanks,

Bless you,

APAK

 

[Stranger]

This will be the Last time posting in this topic. the OP requested me not to post to his topic anymore.

No, this is not the same body, only the images of the body of the nail and spear prints are visible.

and here's why it's not the SAME body. this body walks through the walls, could the body that came out of Mary walk through walls NO. this body appears and disappears at will in nature, can the body that came out of Mary do that NO. so no, this is not the same body in substance.

PCY.

if you want to continue this conversation, I'll be posting to the topic "Diversified Oneness".

PCY

You don't put your hand in an image. That proves nothing.

Do you really think that Jesus who walked on water could not walk through a wall if He wanted to prior to the resurrection?

Stranger

 

[Naomi25]

Naomi: Hello again..

Let’s look at all these 3 scripture passages in your post:

(Rev 1:4) John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
(Rev 1:5) and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
(Rev 1:6) and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(Rev 1:7) Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
(Rev 1:8) “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (ALL ESV)

The problem that most folks have in just reading verse 8 or even verse 7 and 8, they cherry-pick and short-change themselves, on purpose. They quickly forget to look at the entire context, the audience and especially who is the passage of scripture really from.

Who is the passage from? So, go back and read verse 4. Who is, “from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, mean? It is God Almighty, NOT Jesus. Jesus is mentioned and introduced in verse 5, right?

In verse 8, Who is, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.?” It is the other book end of the thought of this passage of scripture. It is no other than God Almighty. It is NOT Jesus. God Almighty started the conversation, and then ended it.

Note: In a few others Bible translations. including the KJV the “God” is missing after the word “Lord” in verse 8. There are those that attempt to capitalize on this difference and argue in futility that because of this missing ‘God’ it must be Jesus. As you can see, it is another lost cause and a waste of time.

(Rev 1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.(KJV)

Why twist such a good piece of scripture to fit an agenda is beyond me. Unless one has gone too far in pride and must force their belief model in any place they can no matter what the cost.

No, there is no pre-existent Jesus found here, and there is no evidence of Jesus = God either.

Yes, the first part is talking about God the Father, if you read back you will see I said that. It is also speaking about Jesus in the paragraph, the the initial reference to the "Alpha and the Omega"..."the beginning and the end" is to God the Father. There is no doubt...but that is what makes the connection to Christ later so sure....not cherry-picking.

"When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades." - Rev 1:17-18

This is indeed Jesus speaking. You can read the verses above, after...all you want...but it is clearly Jesus speaking and labeling himself what the Father had just announced himself to be also. We see Jesus repeat it again chapter 22:

“Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” - Rev 22:12-13

So, it seems quite clear what is being said. Jesus is making the same claim as God the Father. To be the Alpha and The Omega. The beginning and the end. Not only does that mean he is eternal, is also means he is God, sharing the same attributes. The only bending or twisting of scripture here, is the avoidance of what is clearly written.

Next scripture….

(Rev 1:17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (ESV)

This expression in verse 17, “the first and the last” does apply to Jesus without any question. But what does it mean, as “Alpha and Omega.”

Now there are 2x the first expression of verse 17 is used for God Almighty in the OT and 3x in the NT for Jesus, the Christ.

Trinitarians love to boldly assume and simply say without any inspired logic that because the expression of “the first and the last” applied to God in the OT and it applied(s) to Jesus in the NT then Jesus = God. Can you see the foolishness of this claim?

In Isaiah 41:4 “the first, and with the last; I am.” It is of God Almighty being with the generation of people from the beginning of human creation or even before that time. There’s that ‘I am he’ expression again as I discussed earlier.

(Isa 41:4) Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. (ESV)

God Almighty was the one who called out the generations in the OT. Today, Jesus has this authority, given by his Father. Therefore, we have Jesus being labeled with the same expression as what was uniquely given to his Father. Jesus will be calling out his generations of believers from the ‘grave’ in the future, to eternal life, NOT his Father.

There’s no pre-existent Jesus or Jesus = God to be found here.

You know...I can't help but notice that most of your arguments against Jesus being God stem only from your opinion and what you believe to be the "true" meaning behind a certain phrase being used in scripture. You say we "cherry-pick", and misunderstand the proper usage of certain terms. That our understanding is..."uninspired". But APAK, who are you that we should put our trust in your understanding? I'm sorry, but I can see no real strength in your evidences or logic. I disagree with how you see phrases were understood in biblical times...just flatly disagree. And here we have our sticking point, do we not...basically it comes down to opinion. We could toss verses at one another, but if this discussion or debate comes down to "here's how they would have understood that phrase back then"....then we could dance merrily around our own opinions for decades!

Now for the last passage of scripture you posed..

(Rev 22:9) but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
(Rev 22:10) And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
(Rev 22:11) Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”
(Rev 22:12) “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
(Rev 22:13) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (ALL ESV)

First, I give the same basic explanation of verse 13 here as the same one I already gave when Jesus is called “the Alpha and Omega” in this same book. With added reasons…

In verse 13 Jesus expresses himself in three ways for extreme emphasis, so the reader will have no doubt that Jesus has the authority of God given by him; he is the Lord and savior that will bring forth the generation of believers from death to eternal life. He is the father and creator and the only King of the new Kingdom.

Note: in verse 9, WE WORSHIP GOD not Jesus.

Again, no place here found for a pre-existent Jesus or Jesus = God

Is there any other place you want me to address?

Have a great day,

Bless you,

APAK

You know...as I pointed out at the very beginning of our conversation about this topic, you seem to take each, individual instance and pick it apart and explain it away until you can be satisfied that Jesus is not God and you don't have to see him that way. You refuse to look at the whole of the evidence together. Revelation 22 is interesting in that the angel who is there tells John not to worship anyone but God. You may look at that and go, "see! Jesus is not God!" But pretty much everyone else looks at that and goes..."you know, perhaps there is an angel there as well, and Jesus is also there speaking, as he is clearly making statements about his return, and then about him being the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last." We'd also go, "and in Revelation 5, when Jesus took the scroll and opened it, those in heaven fell down and worshiped him."
Yep...worshiped. I know you like to look at it all in 'context', but for sake of brevity I won't post the whole chapter, just some verses:

9: And when he had taken the scroll, the four living creatures and the twenty-four elders fell down before the Lamb, each holding a harp, and golden bowls full of incense, which are the prayers of the saints.

13: And I heard every creature in heaven and on earth and under the earth and in the sea, and all that is in them, saying,

“To him who sits on the throne and to the Lamb
be blessing and honor and glory and might forever and ever!”


14 And the four living creatures said, “Amen!” and the elders fell down and worshiped.

So...Like I said. You start putting it all together. Jesus is worshiped by those in heaven. He shared the "Alpha and Omega, first and the last" name with his Father. We see in Rev 22 that The Father and the Lamb share the Throne. And this is just the book of Revelation. But honestly....to explain away this many things? APAK...I have to ask...why is it so important to you that Jesus is not God? Because everything in scripture is telling us that he is...unless you put your mind to turning it away, which you seem most adept at.

 

[APAK]

@Naomi25

Hopefully not too verbose….

In Rev 1:4-8. Jesus is not recognized as the’ Alpha and Omega.’ Again, Jesus is introduced in verse 5 as the faithful witness. He cannot be both! Verse 5, starts out with the word ‘and’ after God is introduced. I do not know how you cannot see this.

Naomi, please reread what I said for verse 17: I did say that Verse 17 is Jesus Christ! Why did you say the opposite? Or many you meant it.

And what was my statement about verse 17. Here it is again.

“This expression in verse 17, “the first and the last” does apply to Jesus without any question. But what does it mean, as “Alpha and Omega.””

And again, I did say Rev 22:13 was about Jesus, right?

I form my opinions not out of thin air as you have said. They are based on scripture meanings, context and examples for support. I have not seen any in your words. I don’t see any from you except saying I’m just voicing my opinion. I’m not the only one having to support arguments. You must reveal yours aswell; else that would indicate to me you already have the ‘high road’ and the correct interpretations and I must prove mine, only. I do not think that is a fair exchange.

I believe the real disconnect here is what are your meanings of ALL 3 expressions. You have not provided any explanations.

What are your meanings of ‘Alpha and Omega,’’ the First and the Last,’ ‘The Beginning and the End.’ They may not be as clear in scripture although they do have significant distinctive meanings that apply. And they are distinctly different for Jesus and then for God.

I did present their meanings to you. I noticed you did not. You are convinced without telling me that these 3 expressions mean the same for both Jesus and God and therefore Jesus = God. I believe you cannot just come to that conclusion. It’s like the way you look as the expression I AM. It is not that simplistic.

I didn’t somehow use some arbitrary arguments to negate that Jesus is not God. I used the meanings of the expressions as used in scripture to show you that they are different based on their different meanings. You have totally ignored any difference in meaning and just stated Jesus = God. This is basically what you have done and the logic you have used:

God used Alpha and Omega; Jesus used Alpha and Omega; the expression means the same, therefore Jesus = God.

God used ‘I am’; Jesus used ‘I am’; the expression means the same, therefore Jesus = God. Well actually under specific conditions the expression 'I am' does apply to both, and also to other human beings.

Naomi, you must do better that this to convince me. I made my arguments by breaking down the meanings and examples in scripture of these expressions, using context. You have not done any of this.

What is really being made clear here, to me, is that you have not bothered to reveal your arguments for your stance. I have done this, honestly and with truth as I understand it regarding this subject.

As you said: “I have to ask...why is it so important to you that Jesus is not God? Because everything in scripture is telling us that he is...unless you put your mind to turning it away, which you seem most adept at.”

My answer to your question is simple Naomi, first by asking you the same question. Why is it important to you that Jesus must be God? And your answer CANNOT BE THE TRINITY. And so far at least on this thread and with other posts on others I have had no one convince me that Jesus = God, based on my so-called opinions as you have said as my only support.

And where is the scripture that is telling ‘us’ that he is? There is an overwhelming evidence Jesus is not God. You see I mostly probably have already ‘explained away' about two dozen verses supposedly in support of the trinity. I am prepared to do the same for another five dozen. I have done this in the past.

Now what if I decided to bring on ‘my’ verses, over 10 dozen or so, that reveal, Jesus is not God. I wonder how folks would support their charge that Jesus = God under these circumstances. They would have a heck of time defending them, that is very clear to me.

I have spent several decades studying scripture. It has been my top three or four hobbies during my adult life. I do take this subject very seriously.

I do not just go about searching for the cleverest way to support a ‘negative’ as in ‘Jesus is not God,’ as in a college debate; for just a mental exercise. As you well know this subject here is about our foundational core beliefs and must be taken very seriously.

Jesus is not God because plainly he is the last Adam, the son of living God, the Christ, our Lord and Saviour and ‘sits’ with the power of his Father in heaven…that’s one limited explanation why Jesus is not God.

God was not reborn or incarnate over 2000 years ago, into human male genes/DNA and then conceived as a human being. That is a far-fetched and wild theory.



Bless you,



APAK

 

[Naomi25]

@Naomi25

Hopefully not too verbose….

In Rev 1:4-8. Jesus is not recognized as the’ Alpha and Omega.’ Again, Jesus is introduced in verse 5 as the faithful witness. He cannot be both! Verse 5, starts out with the word ‘and’ after God is introduced. I do not know how you cannot see this.

Naomi, please reread what I said for verse 17: I did say that Verse 17 is Jesus Christ! Why did you say the opposite? Or many you meant it.

And what was my statement about verse 17. Here it is again.

“This expression in verse 17, “the first and the last” does apply to Jesus without any question. But what does it mean, as “Alpha and Omega.””

And again, I did say Rev 22:13 was about Jesus, right?

I form my opinions not out of thin air as you have said. They are based on scripture meanings, context and examples for support. I have not seen any in your words. I don’t see any from you except saying I’m just voicing my opinion. I’m not the only one having to support arguments. You must reveal yours aswell; else that would indicate to me you already have the ‘high road’ and the correct interpretations and I must prove mine, only. I do not think that is a fair exchange.

I believe the real disconnect here is what are your meanings of ALL 3 expressions. You have not provided any explanations.

What are your meanings of ‘Alpha and Omega,’’ the First and the Last,’ ‘The Beginning and the End.’ They may not be as clear in scripture although they do have significant distinctive meanings that apply. And they are distinctly different for Jesus and then for God.

I did present their meanings to you. I noticed you did not. You are convinced without telling me that these 3 expressions mean the same for both Jesus and God and therefore Jesus = God. I believe you cannot just come to that conclusion. It’s like the way you look as the expression I AM. It is not that simplistic.

I didn’t somehow use some arbitrary arguments to negate that Jesus is not God. I used the meanings of the expressions as used in scripture to show you that they are different based on their different meanings. You have totally ignored any difference in meaning and just stated Jesus = God. This is basically what you have done and the logic you have used:

God used Alpha and Omega; Jesus used Alpha and Omega; the expression means the same, therefore Jesus = God.

God used ‘I am’; Jesus used ‘I am’; the expression means the same, therefore Jesus = God. Well actually under specific conditions the expression 'I am' does apply to both, and also to other human beings.

Okay, firstly, if I have mistook what you said in your previous post on Revelation, I appologise.
However, I must question where you form your opinions. Glancing back over this thread, I see that as I initially thought, all you seem to rely on is how you see certain phrases and passages. You keep telling people that they are the ones cherry picking things, or that if they really knew how the Hebrews thought or spoke, they'd know just as you do. But the simple fact is that you have nothing to back those claims up with. Orthodoxy says that the verses you poke holes in cry out Christ's divinity. So basically....I don't have to prove my point. I have history behind me. If you are trying to prove something that goes against the norm, then the onus falls on you. And you quote no well know authors, or respected biblical scholars. You don't show other bible verses that give your claims any sort of strength.

As far as the strength of my argument? Well...I can't say I'm all that brilliant, but it's not really about me, is it? The simple fact is, you're still trying to base your argument on the fallacy of "that square isn't really a square." Let me explain:

You say that when God says "I AM" and Jesus says "I AM", it cannot have the same meaning. And you say that when God says "I am the Alpha and the Omega" and Jesus says "I am the Alpha and the Omega" it cannot have the same meaning. And that when Jesus also says "I am the first and the last, the beginning and the end", just as his Father has, it of course means nothing similar.
But the fact is, they were saying the same thing. "Alpha" and "Omega" are fairly specific and hard to mix up with other things. Among the Jewish rabbis, it was common to use the first and the last letters of the Hebrew alphabet to denote the whole of anything, from beginning to end, so this notion already had weight. Added to that, they would have known of God's proclamation to be "the first and the last" in Isaiah 44:6 and 48:12. So any Jew hearing those words from both the Father and Jesus would not have mistaken the claim. Jesus was claiming eternality: existing at the beginning of all things and being there at the close of them all.
And as for the other terms: "beginning" - arche, "Ending" - telos, "first" - protos, "last" - eschatos. They are the same words that both the Father and the Son make. Again, I feel the onus is upon you to show why they should mean different things.

Naomi, you must do better that this to convince me. I made my arguments by breaking down the meanings and examples in scripture of these expressions, using context. You have not done any of this.

What is really being made clear here, to me, is that you have not bothered to reveal your arguments for your stance. I have done this, honestly and with truth as I understand it regarding this subject.

As you said: “I have to ask...why is it so important to you that Jesus is not God? Because everything in scripture is telling us that he is...unless you put your mind to turning it away, which you seem most adept at.”

My answer to your question is simple Naomi, first by asking you the same question. Why is it important to you that Jesus must be God? And your answer CANNOT BE THE TRINITY. And so far at least on this thread and with other posts on others I have had no one convince me that Jesus = God, based on my so-called opinions as you have said as my only support.

And where is the scripture that is telling ‘us’ that he is? There is an overwhelming evidence Jesus is not God. You see I mostly probably have already ‘explained away' about two dozen verses supposedly in support of the trinity. I am prepared to do the same for another five dozen. I have done this in the past.

Now what if I decided to bring on ‘my’ verses, over 10 dozen or so, that reveal, Jesus is not God. I wonder how folks would support their charge that Jesus = God under these circumstances. They would have a heck of time defending them, that is very clear to me.

I have spent several decades studying scripture. It has been my top three or four hobbies during my adult life. I do take this subject very seriously.

I do not just go about searching for the cleverest way to support a ‘negative’ as in ‘Jesus is not God,’ as in a college debate; for just a mental exercise. As you well know this subject here is about our foundational core beliefs and must be taken very seriously.

Jesus is not God because plainly he is the last Adam, the son of living God, the Christ, our Lord and Saviour and ‘sits’ with the power of his Father in heaven…that’s one limited explanation why Jesus is not God.

God was not reborn or incarnate over 2000 years ago, into human male genes/DNA and then conceived as a human being. That is a far-fetched and wild theory.



Bless you,



APAK

Well...I think perhaps you and I will not, nor ever, see eye to eye on this. As you said, most likely anything you have, or will have to say, I will see as you "explaining away". Perhaps you think you've rationally gone through the verses and it all makes a very tidy sort of sense to you. But, I truly do not see it. And please...I'm not trying to "one up" you, as in a college debate you referenced. Golly...never been, never wanted to debate...ugg! I think sometimes people just think so very differently, and perhaps this is one of those times. I'm not really sure if there's much to be gained in going forward if we cannot, but I suppose what I want to say is: feel free to post all those verses if you want. I am supremely confident that my faith will not be rattled. I know who my Saviour is. He is Jesus Christ...the God man. And the fact that he is God makes the fact that he humbled himself for me...and you...even more amazing.

 

[APAK]

A short list of scripture verses to show that there is only one God and one Jesus, the Christ and they are different.

(Joh 17:3) And this is eternal life, that they know you, the only true God, and Jesus Christ whom you have sent.
(Joh 5:43) I have come in my Father's name, and you do not receive me. If another comes in his own name, you will receive him.
(Joh 5:44) How can you believe, when you receive glory from one another and do not seek the glory that comes from the only God?
(Joh 14:1) “Let not your hearts be troubled. Believe in God; believe also in me.
(1Co 8:6) yet for us there is one God, the Father, from whom are all things and for whom we exist, and one Lord, Jesus Christ, through whom are all things and through whom we exist.
(Eph 4:6) one God and Father of all, who is over all and through all and in all.
(Mar 10:18) And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
(Luk 18:19) And Jesus said to him, “Why do you call me good? No one is good except God alone.
(Act 3:13) The God of Abraham, the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob, the God of our fathers, glorified his servant Jesus, whom you delivered over and denied in the presence of Pilate, when he had decided to release him.
(2Co 5:20) Therefore, we are ambassadors for Christ, God making his appeal through us. We implore you on behalf of Christ, be reconciled to God.
(Rev 3:2) Wake up, and strengthen what remains and is about to die, for I have not found your works complete in the sight of my God.
(Rev 3:12) The one who conquers, I will make him a pillar in the temple of my God. Never shall he go out of it, and I will write on him the name of my God, and the name of the city of my God, the new Jerusalem, which comes down from my God out of heaven, and my own new name.



Bless you,

APAK

 

[bbyrd009]

i tend to agree with you here APAK, but there is also a valid reflection of Christ as God, and even--gasp--us, ppl as god. i guess.
the Abarim guy splains it pretty good imo, i'll see if i can find it. in "Elohim" maybe

 

[bbyrd009]

What God is and what God is not

but "Elohim" prolly has more on this also
The amazing name Elohim: meaning and etymology
"
we are the stupid ones, not they.

These phenomenal ancient keepers of all of mankind's wisdom combined also gave us the source texts of the Bible. Hence the Bible does not merely speak of theological or even mythological matters, as many today believe, but the whole of wisdom across the entire scientific, technological and artistic spectrum (see our article on the names Zarephath and Menorah, or check out our riveting Introduction to Quantum Mechanics). And these same ancient scientists knew the universal Creator and Maintainer by a word that was identical to the words for 'these' and a verb that means to swear..."

 

[bbyrd009]

"Elohim is even used to (probably) mean 'angels' and even 'judges'. For a list of occurrences where the word elohim does not mean God, see our article on the First Commandment..." ibid

 

[APAK]

"Elohim is even used to (probably) mean 'angels' and even 'judges'. For a list of occurrences where the word elohim does not mean God, see our article on the First Commandment..." ibid

I agree with your quick answer.....even Elohim to emphasize plurality or dominance in the matter along with the singular verse...like the Queen saying "WE are not amused"....she has a lot of backing when she says 'we'.....

 

[bbyrd009]

"God explains to Moses that his brother Aaron will be a mouth to him, while Moses will be an elohim to Aaron..."
Exodus 20:3 | On Other Gods; the First Commandment | Commentary

 

[Armadillo]

What are your meanings of ‘Alpha and Omega,’’ the First and the Last,’ ‘The Beginning and the End.’ They may not be as clear in scripture although they do have significant distinctive meanings that apply. And they are distinctly different for Jesus and then for God.

Alpha and Omega are Greek words.

Alpha and Omega are the words Aleph and Tav in Hebrew.

Alpha and Omega in English are the letters A and Z.

Throughout the Old Testament are 2 Hebrew letters, the Aleph and the Tav, back to back and since they aren't words, translators took them out.

Example, Genesis 1:1, In the beginning God created the heavens and the earth.

In the beginning God AZ created the heavens and the earth.

Revelation 22:13, I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last, the Beginning and the End.

Jesus wasn't saying He was the alphabet.

Colossians 1:16, For in him all things were created: things in heaven and on earth, visible and invisible, whether thrones or powers or rulers or authorities; all things have been created through him and for him.

It is always about Jesus. Jesus is God.

Revelation 1:8, “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is, and who was, and who is to come, the Almighty.”

What all Unitarians need is an apokalupsis, Greek for revelation. The Book of Revelation shines the light on Jesus.

Galatians 1:12, I did not receive it from any man, nor was I taught it; rather, I received it by revelation from Jesus Christ.