I know this was a reply to brakelite, but I felt I needed to say something about it.
Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
8 “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” - Rev 1:7-8
Then I turned to see the voice that was speaking to me, and on turning I saw seven golden lampstands, 13 and in the midst of the lampstands one like a son of man, clothed with a long robe and with a golden sash around his chest. 14 The hairs of his head were white, like white wool, like snow. His eyes were like a flame of fire, 15 his feet were like burnished bronze, refined in a furnace, and his voice was like the roar of many waters. 16 In his right hand he held seven stars, from his mouth came a sharp two-edged sword, and his face was like the sun shining in full strength.
17 When I saw him, I fell at his feet as though dead. But he laid his right hand on me, saying, “Fear not, I am the first and the last, 18 and the living one. I died, and behold I am alive forevermore, and I have the keys of Death and Hades. - Rev 1:12-18
We see here in Revelation that Jesus makes the claim that he is the first and the last. You may question whether it is Jesus speaking in verse 8 along with God the Father, but he repeats it in verse 17. And again Jesus repeats it in Rev 22:12-13:
"Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done. 13 I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.”
So I do not think you can biblically prove that Jesus "did not exist before his birth. He's just said that he did.
In fact in Revelation 22 we see that the Throne of God is actually the Throne of the Lamb as well:
Then the angel showed me the river of the water of life, bright as crystal, flowing from the throne of God and of the Lamb 2 through the middle of the street of the city; also, on either side of the river, the tree of life with its twelve kinds of fruit, yielding its fruit each month. The leaves of the tree were for the healing of the nations. 3 No longer will there be anything accursed, but the throne of God and of the Lamb will be in it, and his servants will worship him. 4 They will see his face, and his name will be on their foreheads. 5 And night will be no more. They will need no light of lamp or sun, for the Lord God will be their light, and they will reign forever and ever. - Rev 22:1-5
Then half way through the paragraph it starts talking about them as one!
These two points alone should have you rethinking whether or not the bible calls us to worship Jesus!
Naomi: Hello again..
Let’s look at all these 3 scripture passages in your post:
(Rev 1:4) John to the seven churches that are in Asia: Grace to you and peace from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne,
(Rev 1:5) and from Jesus Christ the faithful witness, the firstborn of the dead, and the ruler of kings on earth. To him who loves us and has freed us from our sins by his blood
(Rev 1:6) and made us a kingdom, priests to his God and Father, to him be glory and dominion forever and ever. Amen.
(Rev 1:7) Behold, he is coming with the clouds, and every eye will see him, even those who pierced him, and all tribes of the earth will wail on account of him. Even so. Amen.
(Rev 1:8) “I am the Alpha and the Omega,” says the Lord God, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.” (ALL ESV)
The problem that most folks have in just reading verse 8 or even verse 7 and 8, they cherry-pick and short-change themselves, on purpose. They quickly forget to look at the entire context, the audience and especially who is the passage of scripture really from.
Who is the passage from? So, go back and read verse 4. Who is, “from him who is and who was and who is to come, and from the seven spirits who are before his throne, mean? It is God Almighty, NOT Jesus. Jesus is mentioned and introduced in verse 5, right?
In verse 8, Who is, “who is and who was and who is to come, the Almighty.?” It is the other book end of the thought of this passage of scripture. It is no other than God Almighty. It is NOT Jesus. God Almighty started the conversation, and then ended it.
Note: In a few others Bible translations. including the KJV the “God” is missing after the word “Lord” in verse 8. There are those that attempt to capitalize on this difference and argue in futility that because of this missing ‘God’ it must be Jesus. As you can see, it is another lost cause and a waste of time.
(Rev 1:8) I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the ending, saith the Lord, which is, and which was, and which is to come, the Almighty.(KJV)
Why twist such a good piece of scripture to fit an agenda is beyond me. Unless one has gone too far in pride and must force their belief model in any place they can no matter what the cost.
No, there is no pre-existent Jesus found here, and there is no evidence of Jesus = God either.
Next scripture….
(Rev 1:17) And when I saw him, I fell at his feet as dead. And he laid his right hand upon me, saying unto me, Fear not; I am the first and the last: (ESV)
This expression in verse 17, “the first and the last” does apply to Jesus without any question. But what does it mean, as “Alpha and Omega.”
Now there are 2x the first expression of verse 17 is used for God Almighty in the OT and 3x in the NT for Jesus, the Christ.
Trinitarians love to boldly assume and simply say without any inspired logic that because the expression of “the first and the last” applied to God in the OT and it applied(s) to Jesus in the NT then Jesus = God. Can you see the foolishness of this claim?
In Isaiah 41:4 “the first, and with the last; I am.” It is of God Almighty being with the generation of people from the beginning of human creation or even before that time. There’s that ‘I am he’ expression again as I discussed earlier.
(Isa 41:4) Who has performed and done this, calling the generations from the beginning? I, the LORD, the first, and with the last; I am he. (ESV)
God Almighty was the one who called out the generations in the OT. Today, Jesus has this authority, given by his Father. Therefore, we have Jesus being labeled with the same expression as what was uniquely given to his Father. Jesus will be calling out his generations of believers from the ‘grave’ in the future, to eternal life, NOT his Father.
There’s no pre-existent Jesus or Jesus = God to be found here.
Now for the last passage of scripture you posed..
(Rev 22:9) but he said to me, “You must not do that! I am a fellow servant with you and your brothers the prophets, and with those who keep the words of this book. Worship God.”
(Rev 22:10) And he said to me, “Do not seal up the words of the prophecy of this book, for the time is near.
(Rev 22:11) Let the evildoer still do evil, and the filthy still be filthy, and the righteous still do right, and the holy still be holy.”
(Rev 22:12) “Behold, I am coming soon, bringing my recompense with me, to repay each one for what he has done.
(Rev 22:13) I am the Alpha and the Omega, the first and the last, the beginning and the end.” (ALL ESV)
First, I give the same basic explanation of verse 13 here as the same one I already gave when Jesus is called “the Alpha and Omega” in this same book. With added reasons…
In verse 13 Jesus expresses himself in three ways for extreme emphasis, so the reader will have no doubt that Jesus has the authority of God given by him; he is the Lord and savior that will bring forth the generation of believers from death to eternal life. He is the father and creator and the only King of the new Kingdom.
Note: in verse 9, WE WORSHIP GOD not Jesus.
Again, no place here found for a pre-existent Jesus or Jesus = God
Is there any other place you want me to address?
Have a great day,
Bless you,
APAK