@brakelite ...
Brakelite: Brother to brother, I want to share with you some of my research and beliefs as my reply to you. God be the glory and to our Lord in the heavens. I will have to reply to you over a few posts because you have given me so much homework to do....
(Mic 5:2) But you, O Bethlehem Ephrathah, who are too little to be among the clans of Judah, from you shall come forth for me one who is to be ruler in Israel, whose coming forth is from of old, from ancient days. (ESV)
(Mic 5:2) And you, Beth-lehem Ephrathah, the least among the families of Judah, out of you one will come to me who is to be ruler in Israel; whose going out has been purposed from time past, from the eternal days. (BBE)
(Mic 5:1) ואתהH859 בית לחםH1035 אפרתהH672 צעירH6810 להיותH1961 באלפיH505 יהודהH3063 ממךH4480 לי יצאH3318 להיותH1961 מושׁלH4910 בישׂראלH3478 ומוצאתיוH4163 מקדםH6924 מימיH3117 עולם׃H5769
(HEB OT)
In Hebrew text it is Mic 5:1 not Mic 5:2
Now for my own Hebrew translation…with modern day conjunctions and punctuations to make sense of it.
“You, Beth-lechen-Ephratach, the smallest in the Jehudah tribe, although from out of you will rise a ruler of Israel, a family descendent, whose time of going out (of being born into the world) was appointed and concealed a very long time ago.” (APAK version)
The key expression here is “going out/coming forth” means time of the beginning of birth. It is saying that the birth of the Messiah has been set from the beginning of time/creation…
Judah knew that the Messiah would be born in Bethlehem at an appointed time, as Christ would point this out to them later while he was earth.
It has ZERO to do with God Almighty or Jesus pre-existing before he was born. A classic case of overreach.
The complimentary NT scripture is the following:
(Mat 2:3) When Herod the king heard this, he was troubled, and all Jerusalem with him;
(Mat 2:4) and assembling all the chief priests and scribes of the people, he inquired of them where the Christ was to be born.
(Mat 2:5) They told him, “In Bethlehem of Judea, for so it is written by the prophet:
(Mat 2:6) “‘And you, O Bethlehem, in the land of Judah, are by no means least among the rulers of Judah; for from you shall come a ruler who will shepherd my people Israel.’”
There is NO record of a Jesus incarnate on earth at any time. It would be clearly an odd and crazy thought to any Judahite.
Now to the next chosen verse.
(Joh 17:5) And now, Father, glorify me in your own presence with the glory that I had with you before the world existed. (ESV)
The key term to understand this verse is ‘foreknowledge.’ And that John was the poetic, original language writer.
Jesus was told whilst on earth that God would glorify his son. God had planned this glory for his son from the beginning of time. God had foreknowledge of his plan and its outcome before Jesus was born.
Jesus was praying to his Father that his glory would come soon. The trials that he was enduring were becoming unbearable. His glory would be in his transformation of his earthly human body to one of power and spirit with authority over earth and heaven.
The common mistake of the modern reader is not understanding the more primitive expressions and usage of words. “I had with you before the world existed’ clearly points to the plan of salvation (logos -word) generated by God alone, before the world was ‘created.’ And a part of the plan was to glorify his son in the end. Jesus know of this plan and his glorification could not come too soon for him.
As another example, in the NT believers were given grace before the beginning of time. We know believers did not exist before the beginning of time; it was only God’s plan that existed.
The same explanation goes for John 17:24
(Joh 17:24) Father, I desire that they also, whom you have given me, may be with me where I am, to see my glory that you have given me because you loved me before the foundation of the world. (ESV)
Now to Philippians 2:6, explained this one recently to someone else..I have to cut and paste it…too long..
Look at the entire scripture area……
(Php 2:1) So if there is any encouragement in Christ, any comfort from love, any participation in the Spirit, any affection and sympathy,
(Php 2:2) complete my joy by being of the same mind, having the same love, being in full accord and of one mind.
(Php 2:3) Do nothing from selfish ambition or conceit, but in humility count others more significant than yourselves.
(Php 2:4) Let each of you look not only to his own interests, but also to the interests of others.
(Php 2:5) Have this mind among yourselves, which is yours in Christ Jesus,
(Php 2:6) who, though he was in the form of God, did not count equality with God a thing to be grasped,
(Php 2:7) but emptied himself, by taking the form of a servant, being born in the likeness of men.
(Php 2:8) And being found in human form, he humbled himself by becoming obedient to the point of death, even death on a cross.
(Php 2:9) Therefore God has highly exalted him and bestowed on him the name that is above every name,
(Php 2:10) so that at the name of Jesus every knee should bow, in heaven and on earth and under the earth,
(Php 2:11) and every tongue confess that Jesus Christ is Lord, to the glory of God the Father. (ALL ESV)
The focus of this passage (2:1-5) is about a believer having the mind of Christ given by the spirit of God.
The focus of this passage (2:6-11) is about Christ, who had/has the mind of God and never once took credit that it was his own mind and power performing the miracles and words that God spoke though Jesus.
In verse 6 it is worth noting that someone already being God would not grasp equality of being God if he was in the first place. Why grasp for something you already possess? Sounds quite odd and something to consider seriously here is verse 6..
So, Jesus did not consider himself to be equal with God just because he spoke, acted and performed miracles, because God caused all of it. Jesus stayed humble as a servant throughout and allowed his Father to work through his mind without taking any credit. He gave all the credit to his Father and our Father as he was obedient throughout.
God gave him a glory higher that any creation in heaven and on earth so that all must honor and bow to him as our Lord that is the glory of God.
Now for a little technical stuff…
Php 2:6 -8
The word ‘form’ is in Greek ‘morphe’ this word means ‘outer’ appearance, likeness, or image and not inner nature. If Jesus was meant to be mean God, there would be no need to ‘beat around the bush’ and say, ‘a form of.’ As we are ‘a form’ of Christ in mind, although not Christ. It would have stated he was God in the flesh.
Now the Greek word ‘morphe’ is usually interchangeable with the Greek word ‘schema’ for the English word ‘external appearance.’ There is no hint of ‘inner nature’ here.
It is good to find another verse describing Jesus and his outward appearance.
Look at Mark 16:12-13
(Mar 16:12) After these things he appeared in another form to two of them, as they were walking into the country.
(Mar 16:13) And they went back and told the rest, but they did not believe them. (ALL ESV)
We see in verse 12 that the Greek word ‘morphe’ is used to indicate the change in Jesus’ outward appearance. Jesus did not change his ‘inner nature’ in front of these two apostles. He had a changed appearance and the apostle did not recognize him at first. Luke tells this story in full.
When the Jews translated the Septuagint and the RCC sanctioned Apocrypha
, from Greek
into Hebrew they always translated, ‘morphe’ as ‘outer appearance’ and never inner nature.
We can understand that ‘a form of’ or ‘an image of’ is not the genuine article, right? Jesus was not intended to be called God here.
Bless you brother,
APAK
PS I will get another post out when I can, on the rest of your post I'm responding to..