Jesus returns, Jesus judges, the good inherit the earth, and the bad are sent to Hell "age-during"

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Patrick1966

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It does seem right because they choose not to believe...

Paul told us that faith is a gift. And then John the Baptist said...
John 3:27
English Standard Version
27 John answered, “A person cannot receive even one thing unless it is given him from heaven."

Is predestination really a thing? Are some people predestined to spend eternity with GOD while others are predestined to spend it elsewhere?
 

Zao is life

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The teachings are very clear. I'm not "twisting" anything. They say what they say. You cannot admit that your understanding is mistaken because you are full of yourself and your ego, pride, and vanity won't permit you to become detached from your misunderstanding. On top of that, you accuse me of being a wicked heretic when it is YOU that is teaching a false doctrine and smearing God's good name.
Jesus taught us it's by our fruits we will be known. So I can be right about doctrine and have knowledge of the scriptures that far surpasses anyone else's, but in the end of the day, to our judge it's all only about fruit. He will want to know what our fruit is. I get provoked by the provocation of the fruit of others and end up producing bad fruit myself too many times.

I don't believe in universal forgiveness without repentance and faith, and as for believers I don't believe in OSAS either (once saved always saved regardless of whether or not someone becomes offended and falls away or falls away for any other reason).

But I do believe if someone with a different understanding speaks to me with respect then that's what I should give back. The Pharisee spirit in some is what produces their fruit, whether they are correct or not - and Jesus cares only about our fruit and our faith in Him, not about the legalistic attitudes of the Pharisees.
 

WPM

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The teachings are very clear. I'm not "twisting" anything. They say what they say. You cannot admit that your understanding is mistaken because you are full of yourself and your ego, pride, and vanity won't permit you to become detached from your misunderstanding. On top of that, you accuse me of being a wicked heretic when it is YOU that is teaching a false doctrine and smearing God's good name.

Keep your ad hominem to yourself. You are talking about yourself. You obviously cannot handle biblical rebuke. You have no answer to the Scriptures. You duck around them and misinterpret other to suit your error. What you espouse (Universalism) is recognized in orthodox Christian circles through the centuries as heresy. That is where Bible-believing Christians stand. You are preaching a false gospel that contradicts God's Word. You need to repent!
 

ewq1938

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Paul told us that faith is a gift.

Wrong. He said salvation is a gift.

Ephesians 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:
Ephesians 2:9 Not of works, lest any man should boast.



Whatever is the gift of God in this verse it is clear that it cannot be achieved through works. We already know that grace is unmerited favor and cannot be earned through works so that is a possibility. We also know that our own salvation could not be worked for since we are sinners. Only Christ was sinless and could work for the salvation of those who would believe upon Him. Faith comes from hearing the Word of God which is a work.


Through faith we are saved by God's unmerited favor. That salvation is the gift of God that cannot be achieved through our works. Faith however can very much be achieved through works.


Romans 10:17 So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the word of God.



1 Thessalonians 1:3 Remembering without ceasing your work of faith, and labour of love, and patience of hope in our Lord Jesus Christ, in the sight of God and our Father;


2 Thessalonians 1:11 Wherefore also we pray always for you, that our God would count you worthy of this calling, and fulfil all the good pleasure of his goodness, and the work of faith with power:
 

Timtofly

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I'm not clear on what you're communicating but it is my belief that some may go to the Lake of Fire but it is only for a period of time, probably just until they have been restored so it's possible that a lost soul doesn't actually stay there for the entire age but just for a portion of it.
What age are you talking about? The LOF is not even part of creation.

Once those on earth witness the formation of the LOF, as far as we know, it will always exist, and always be separate from creation itself. It does not even exist yet, and no verse in Scripture claims any ever get back out. It is not death, sheol, nor the grave. It is not part of current creation, so has nothing to do with ages we know and understand.

The word age-during is so archaic English I cannot even find a definition of it online. Would you also prefer everlasting life not be everlasting either, or just punishment?
 

Zao is life

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@Patrick1966

The reason I don't believe that every human being is saved has everything to do with why (the reason) Jesus said that "..whoever believes .." (John 3:14-21).

I believe it goes back to the very beginning, and I'm going to tell you why I believe this.

But before we go back to the very beginning to see if we can understand whether "whoever believes" = "(only) those who believe" or "all the world", there is another statement in-between the very beginning and Jesus' words in John 3:14-21 which applies to this (remember that Jesus is the Word of God who became flesh, John 1:1-4 & 14):-

Why is it written,

"And he believed in the LORD. And He counted it to him for righteousness." (Genesis 15:6)?

3 For what does the Scripture say? "Abraham believed God, and it was counted to him for righteousness."
4 But to him working, the reward is not reckoned according to grace, but according to debt.
5 But to him not working, but believing on Him justifying the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
(Romans 4:3-5).

Notice that it does not say that Abraham's "good works" or Abraham's "righteousness" was credited to Abraham for righteousness - it says that Abraham's believing the Word of God was credited to him for righteousness - and God chose Abraham and his seed because Abraham believed the Word of God.

Believing the Word of God is believing God, and Jesus is the Word of God, and He said whoever believes shall not perish, but he who does not believe is already condemned.

Why is this?

I believe it goes back to the beginning:

"you shall not eat of the tree of knowledge of good and evil. For in the day that you eat of it you shall surely die." (Genesis 2:17).

"And the serpent said to the woman, You shall not surely die." (Genesis 3:4).

The tree of life was also in the midst of the garden, and Adam could freely eat of it. John 1:1-4 tells us that in the Word of God is life. Jesus is the Word of God, and He tells us that whoever believes His words and believes in Him will not perish, but have everlasting life.

Therefore I believe that because God spoke directly to Adam, Adam knew perfectly well that God had said that if he partakes of the fruit of knowledge and evil he will most definitely die, so he would have understood what the words "you will not surely die" implied about God and God's Word,

but Adam chose to believe the lie because he wanted to make himself like the Most High, because the devil had said he would be like God.

Adam and Eve were made in the image and likeness of God. You can't get more like God than that, because God is the Creator, and mankind is the creature.

But Adam and Eve wanted more than the image and likeness of God, they wanted to be like God in status and knowledge and omniscience and in every way, so they deliberately allowed that thought that they would be like God to dwell in their minds, and the result was that they became convinced that they would not surely die.

So I believe that the first sin was inward before it became the actual action - and the first sin was unbelief of the Word of God - in effect calling God a liar or a lie (because the Word of God is God), and Satan true - making him the god of this world.

And i believe that God allowed Satan to do what he did so that Adam and Eve could be tested as to their faithfulness and loyalty, given a motive, as they had been, for choosing to believe the lie.

Jesus came into this world, took on human flesh, took the penalty for that sin and all sin, died in Adam's (and our) place, and rose again from the dead.

I believe that if God allowed Adam and Eve to be tested, then all the sons and daughters of Adam are likewise tested:

14 But even as Moses lifted up the serpent in the wilderness, even so must the Son of man be lifted up,
15 so that whosoever believes in Him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
16 For God so loved the world that He gave His only-begotten Son, that whoever believes in Him should not perish but have everlasting life.
17 For God did not send His Son into the world to condemn the world, but so that the world might be saved through Him.
18 He who believes on Him is not condemned, but he who does not believe is condemned already, .. "


Adam and Eve did not believe God after the lie of the devil gave them an alternate belief and they could choose between the Word of God and Satan's word.

".. because he has not believed in the name of the only-begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than the Light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light, lest his deeds should be exposed.
21 But he who practices truth comes to the Light so that his deeds may be made known, that they have been worked in God.


Adam lost eternal life. The last Adam (Jesus) bought it back with his own blood. Abraham believed (the Word of) God and it was credited to him for righteousness.

So then what about those who will always refuse to believe, for the reasons Jesus gave above? Will they escape eternal death, though Adam did not escape death? Will they also live forever? How can that be so, since in the Word of God is life (John 1:1-4), and believing the Word of God is what gives mankind access to the tree of life again?

So God has provided salvation for all men, and the only way to inherit it is not through good works or righteousness or anything else, but to believe the Word of Jesus, who is the Word of God, who took on human flesh and suffered greatly, bearing all our sin and the sin of all mankind in His own body, dying, and rising again from the dead.

Maybe we all have different experiences in life. Maybe it's difficult for you to believe that there are some humans who will always refuse to believe, who will always reject, no matter how many chances they are given. But I don't believe that. I believe there are many people who, even if they were given a second chance, would receive it for a while, but then after not long, they will turn away again:

Mark 4:14-20 The sower sows the Word:

And these are those by the wayside, where the Word is sown. And when they hear, Satan comes immediately and takes away the Word that was sown in their hearts.

And these are those likewise being sown on stony places; who, when they hear the Word, immediately receive it with gladness. But they
have no root in themselves, but are temporary. Afterward when affliction or persecution arises for the Word's sake, they are immediately offended.

And these are those being sown among thorns; such as hear the Word, and the cares of this world, and the deceit of riches, and the lust about other things entering in, choke the Word, and it becomes unfruitful.

And these are those sown on good ground, who hear the Word and welcome it, and bear fruit, one thirty, one sixty, and one a hundredfold.


It's all about the Word of God, and believing or not believing God, just as Jesus said, and just as God said in the Garden of Eden: God told Adam he would die. The devil told Adam he would not die.

This is why I do not believe that those who do not believe, or even those who believe for a while but fall away, are saved.

It's harsh, but God is not a liar, and it is so harsh to God the Father that He sent the very Word, which Adam rejected, into the world to come and take the penalty upon Himself, being cursed because of our unbelief and our sins, and dying, and then rising again from the dead.

We serve a Mighty, Almighty, merciful, loving and forgiving God. But He cannot allow sin and unbelief to dwell in His presence.

God did not tell Adam that he would not die if he ate of the fruit of knowledge of good and evil.
Jesus did not tell us that those who do not believe in Him will live.
 
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Timtofly

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Are you trying to tell me what I believe? That seems to be a common theme on this forum. Let me tell you what I believe instead. I don't believe that God tortures unbelievers for eternity. I believe that they will be separated from His presence for eternity and they will be in torment in the sense of regretting missing out on what God had offered them.
The Lake of Regret?
 

Timtofly

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Thank you.

Does it seem right that Jews die and are then condemned to Hell for their lack of belief when it was God's will to blind them in the first place?
Not how the process works.

God blinded them after their unwillingness to obey. God did not blind them and force them to disobey.

God does not deceive people either. God does prevent people from being wishy washy.

"I know thy works, that thou art neither cold nor hot: I would thou wert cold or hot. So then because thou art lukewarm, and neither cold nor hot, I will spue thee out of my mouth. Because thou sayest, I am rich, and increased with goods, and have need of nothing; and knowest not that thou art wretched, and miserable, and poor, and blind, and naked:"
 

ewq1938

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1 Timothy 4:10 esv
For to this end we toil and strive, because we have our hope set on the living God, who is the Savior of all people, especially of those who believe.

You are misreading that. In no way is that saying all people are saved. So many scriptures show that most people will be destroyed in hell.

He is available as savior to all, but most reject him.

Mat 7:13 Enter ye in at the strait gate: for wide is the gate, and broad is the way, that leadeth to destruction, and many there be which go in thereat:
Mat 7:14 Because strait is the gate, and narrow is the way, which leadeth unto life, and few there be that find it.
 

ewq1938

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It says what it says. Jesus is the savior of ALL men.

Why did Jesus say only a few find life then? He said most find destruction. YOU are misunderstanding what it means to be the savior of all men. It doesn't mean what you think it does.

1Pe 4:17 For the time is come that judgment must begin at the house of God: and if it first begin at us, what shall the end be of them that obey not the gospel of God?
1Pe 4:18 And if the righteous scarcely be saved, where shall the ungodly and the sinner appear?
 

Patrick1966

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Matthew 25:46

Young's Literal Translation

46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'
 

ewq1938

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Jesus is the Savior of all men but not all men are saved from a temporary visit to the Lake of Fire.

And not all men will accept him as Savior, but will go to the LOF and no scripture says it is a temporary visit.
 

ewq1938

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Matthew 25:46​

Young's Literal Translation​

46 And these shall go away to punishment age-during, but the righteous to life age-during.'


And since the righteous get life for eternity, the punishment for the unrighteous also lasts for eternity.
 

Patrick1966

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And not all men will accept him as Savior, but will go to the LOF and no scripture says it is a temporary visit.

1 Corinthians 15:22-28

22 For as in Adam all die, so also in Christ shall all be made alive. 23 But each in his own order: Christ the firstfruits, then at his coming those who belong to Christ. 24 Then comes the end, when he delivers the kingdom to God the Father after destroying every rule and every authority and power. 25 For he must reign until he has put all his enemies under his feet. 26 The last enemy to be destroyed is death. 27 For “God[c] has put all things in subjection under his feet.” But when it says, “all things are put in subjection,” it is plain that he is excepted who put all things in subjection under him. 28 When all things are subjected to him, then the Son himself will also be subjected to him who put all things in subjection under him, that God may be all in all.
 

Patrick1966

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And since the righteous get life for eternity, the punishment for the unrighteous also lasts for eternity.

As John 3:16 promises, those who believe will never die. Everyone else goes to the grave and after being resurrected, some will go into the Lake of Fire but it will be temporary otherwise 1 Corinthians 15 is erroneous.