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Featured JOHN 11:25 THE RESURRECTION

Discussion in 'Unorthodox Doctrine Forum' started by Doug, Aug 19, 2019.

  1. Doug

    Doug Active Member

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    John 11:24 Martha saith unto him, I know that he shall rise again in the resurrection at the last day.

    11:25 Jesus said unto her, I am the resurrection, and the life: he that believeth in me, though he were dead, yet shall he live:

    11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    11:27 She saith unto him, Yea, Lord: I believe that thou art the Christ, the Son of God, which should come into the world.

    Jesus has promised that by believing in him we shall live, never to die. There is no caveat here to the promise of eternal life, to give it, then take it away. There is nothing for us to do to know we have life everlasting but to believe. It is all by Christ Jesus.

    Martha believed on Jesus as the Christ, the Son of God unto eternal life (John 3:16 John 20:31). Martha confessed that Jesus is Christ, the Son of God according to the requirements of the covenant for blessing (1 Kings 8:35-36 Matthew 10:32 Romans 10:9 1 john 4:15 Revelation 3:5).

    There are two resurrections:

    Acts 24:15 And have hope toward God, which they themselves also allow, that there shall be a resurrection of the dead, both of the just and unjust.

    Broadly speaking there is the resurrection of the just and the unjust.

    1 Thessalonians 4:16 For the Lord himself shall descend from heaven with a shout, with the voice of the archangel, and with the trump of God: and the dead in Christ shall rise first:

    4:17 Then we which are alive and remain shall be caught up together with them in the clouds, to meet the Lord in the air: and so shall we ever be with the Lord.

    1 Corinthians 15:52 In a moment, in the twinkling of an eye, at the last trump: for the trumpet shall sound, and the dead shall be raised incorruptible, and we shall be changed.

    The resurrection of the just is the first resurrection and is in two parts, but everyone in their own order (1 Corinthians 15:23):

    The first part of the first resurrection is the resurrection of those in the body of Christ which occurs before the tribulation (Matthew 3:7 1 Thessalonians 1:10). They will be resurrected and be given positions in the heavenly places (Ephesians 1:3 Ephesians 2:6).

    The dead in Christ will rise first (1 Thessalonians 4:16) then afterwards those in the body who are alive (1 Thessalonians 4:15).

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    The second part of the first resurrection is of the old testament saints, the kingdom saints, and the tribulation saints, and occurs after the tribulation, at the Lord's coming.

    Those in Christ are the kingdom saints who believed on Jesus before the dispensation of grace and the body of Christ was revealed to Paul. The kingdom saints will enter into the promised kingdom on earth and reign with Christ.

    The old testament saints in Christ are resurrected as well in the second part of the first resurrection and will enter the kingdom. Those that sat on the thrones as mentioned in Revelation 20:4 would include the twelve apostles (Matthew 19:28). It can also be seen that Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob will be raised at this time to enter the kingdom (Matthew 8:11).

    The saints who die in the tribulation are likewise included in the second part of the first resurrection. They will be raised at the coming of the Lord Jesus and as stated in Revelation 20:4, will enter the Davidic kingdom on earth and reign with Christ.

    Revelation 20:5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.

    The rest of the dead are all the unbelievers from Adam onward.

    Revelation 20:6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.

    The believing remnant of Israel, Jew and Gentile, consisting of the old testament saints, the kingdom saints, and the tribulation saints will enter the kingdom. The Israel of God will be priests unto God and shall reign with Christ.

    Revelation 20:11 And I saw a great white throne, and him that sat on it, from whose face the earth and the heaven fled away; and there was found no place for them.

    20:12 And I saw the dead, small and great, stand before God; and the books were opened: and another book was opened, which is the book of life: and the dead were judged out of those things which were written in the books, according to their works.

    20:13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

    20:14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

    20:15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.

    The unbelievers are the rest of the dead and are risen last after the thousand year reign of Christ to stand before the great white throne according to Revelation 20:5 ; this is the second resurrection. The second death is being thrown into the lake of fire.

    John 7:2 Now the Jew's feast of tabernacles was at hand.

    John 7:37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

    The resurrection is referred to as being at "the last day" in John 11:24 and it is not clear what is meant, but the last day seems to find correlation with the feast of tabernacles in John 7:37.

    Zechariah 14:16 14:16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.

    Zechariah is speaking of the feast of tabernacles during the millennial reign of Christ; the resurrections of the just will occur at the coming of Christ to establish his heavenly and earthly kingdoms.
     
  2. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are not alive? I thought Jesus said they were.

    Matthew 22:32 I am the God of Abraham, and the God of Isaac, and the God of Jacob? God is not the God of the dead, but of the living.

    What about Elijah and Moses who showed up at the Transfiguration?
     
  3. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    You make me never want to open my mouth again.
     
  4. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    It is hard to understand, isn't it?
     
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  5. bbyrd009

    bbyrd009 Groper

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    and Santa Claus is real too, Doug. No offense but your inferences are strongly, even terminally contested in other parts of Scripture, and you are forwarding the most common, Mithraist persepctive of Jesus as Apollo, come to take you away to the Elysian Fields. You might address these and see where they lead you wadr ok
    No Son of Man may die for another's sins
    No one has ever gone up to heaven
    There is only One Immortal
    You and your sons will be here with me
    No one knows where they go when they die

    etc, etc

    but i mean you might nootice that the have faith in Me of the orig has immediately been watered down into believe, on the way to this mithraist fantasy that wadr is being catered to in Scripture, these are called "the wise" imo.

    Note how these are not even really "beliefs" to you, but rather more like "absolute truths," that cannot even be discussed? Right? That is a sign, ok? At least imo. Ok peace
     
  6. Doug

    Doug Active Member

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    Hello
    The resurrection is of the body 1 Corinthians 15:44

    Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob are alive as can be seen in Luke 16:19-31 and are awaiting resurrection as well as Moses and all the old testament saints.
     
  7. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    So what do you think? Are they dead or alive? If they're alive, why do they need to be resurrected?

    And more: If our goal is to gain eternal life for ourselves, are we on the wrong track by acting selfishly?

    John 12:25 He that loveth his life shall lose it; and he that hateth his life in this world shall keep it unto life eternal.

    Keep it? So he said.

    John 11:26 And whosoever liveth and believeth in me shall never die. Believest thou this?

    Never?
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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  8. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

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    John refers to it as a feast of the Jews because they no longer kept "The Feasts of the Lord" as prescribed. It is ironic that Christians see that when Christ returns everyone keeps his feast days, and yet why wouldn't the church do so as well today? Then again, perhaps there is a remnant who continues to love Christ enough to actually keep his commandments after all. There is no law against celebrating God's plan of salvation so it makes sense to conclude they would.

    My suspicion is that those who don't, keep their own feast days just like we see in these texts.
     
  9. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    The answer should be obvious. Their souls and spirits are very much awake and alive with God and Christ in Heaven. But they need their resurrected and glorified bodies so that their salvation is completed. The Resurrection/Rapture is the completion of salvation and perfection (body, soul, and spirit).
     
  10. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    They're in Heaven? What do you base that on? The Bible says many things, but I don't remember it saying that. Where it does say "souls and spirits" go to Heaven?

    John 3:13 And no man hath ascended up to heaven, but he that came down from heaven, even the Son of man which is in heaven.
     
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  11. Enoch111

    Enoch111 Well-Known Member

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    Please read and study Hebrews 11 & 12. And when people come up with "where does it say" they do not understand how the Bible is to be understood. It is not a text book.

    Also the martyrdom of Stephen (Acts 7 &8) who literally saw Christ standing in Heaven to receive him, and also said "Lord Jesus receive my spirit". Paul made it crystal clear that to be absent from the body is to be present with the Lord (in Heaven).
     
  12. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Do you understand it? That passage doesn't mention people going to Heaven. I checked. It does talk about people going to the "heavenly city." The spiritual city of Jerusalem. Where's that? It has the Tree of Life -- that's a clue. It has a river of living waters flowing from the Throne of God. That's another clue. Sounds like Eden to me. After all "paradise" does mean "garden." The thief went to Paradise, Jesus met him there that same day. Yet after the Resurrection, Jesus said he hadn't yet ascended to the Father. That tells me "paradise" and "heaven" are different places. The Jews know what Paradise is, and they call it that. It's the Garden.

    The Jews also say Paradise is right next door to Gehinnom. Jesus seems to have thought so too since he has Abraham in one place talking to someone in "hell."

    I like the way you add words to your Bible when you read it. Jesus can be anywhere he wants -- on earth or in any of the three heavens.

    Acts 7 does not say Stephen's spirit went up to Heaven. It also does not say Jesus was standing in Heaven to receive him into Heaven. You're adding words again.

    Acts 7:55 But he, being full of the Holy Ghost, looked up stedfastly into heaven, and saw the glory of God, and Jesus standing on the right hand of God,
    56 And said, Behold, I see the heavens opened, and the Son of man standing on the right hand of God.
    57 Then they cried out with a loud voice, and stopped their ears, and ran upon him with one accord,
    58 And cast him out of the city, and stoned him: and the witnesses laid down their clothes at a young man's feet, whose name was Saul.
    59 And they stoned Stephen, calling upon God, and saying, Lord Jesus, receive my spirit.


    Has it ever occurred to you that maybe Stephen was "caught up" in the air and met Jesus there in the "clouds" of the air? Not to the heaven of fire, but the one of air?

    There really is a difference between Paradise and the third Heaven. We can ignore the "and" in the following, but the "and" is still there.

    2 Corinthians 12:2 I knew a man in Christ above fourteen years ago, (whether in the body, I cannot tell; or whether out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; ) such an one caught up to the third heaven.
    3 And I knew such a man, (whether in the body, or out of the body, I cannot tell: God knoweth; )
    4 How that he was caught up into paradise, and heard unspeakable words, which it is not lawful for a man to utter.
     
    Last edited: Aug 20, 2019
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  13. Doug

    Doug Active Member

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    Hello
    The dead are living souls (Revelation 20:4) who groan to be clothed with our spiritual body (2 Corinthians 5:2-3).

    John 11:26 is not saying we don't die physically but we will have eternal life

    We don't gain eternal life by what we do or don't do .....below is how we are saved:


    This is the gospel by which we are saved.

    15:1 Moreover, brethren, I declare unto you the gospel which I preached unto you, which also ye have received, and wherein ye stand;

    15:3 For I delivered unto you first of all that which I also received, how that Christ died for our sins according to the scriptures;

    15:4 And that he was buried, and that he rose again the third day according to the scriptures:

    1 Corinthians 15

    We are all sinners who can not save ourselves.

    See Romans 3:23 Titus 3:5 Romans 5:6

    Christ died for our sins; He was our substitute, He paid the full penalty and debt for our sin by his blood sacrifice.

    See 2 Corinthians 5:21 Romans 3:24 Romans 3:25 Romans 3:26

    He was buried.

    He rose again for our justification ( to declare us righteous) and forgiveness of all our sin. He gives us His righteousness and eternal life.

    See Romans 4:25 Ephesians 1:7 Romans 4:22 Romans 4:23 Romans 4:24 1 Corinthians 1:30

    All we have to do is believe the gospel.

    See Romans 4:5 1 Corinthians 1:21 Ephesians 1:13

    Believing is being persuaded that something is true.

    See Romans 4:21

    The moment you believe you have eternal life.

    Titus 1:1 Titus 1:2 Titus 3:7

    Trust the gospel of your salvation. Place your faith in Jesus Christ, in his blood, his death and his resurrection.
     
  14. Doug

    Doug Active Member

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    Hello
    The feast days were given to Israel, the body of Christ in Paul's epistles are not commanded to observe them (Colossians 2:16-17).

    Israel will be reigning on earth with Christ in the future and there will be a temple and observances in the millennium.
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  15. shnarkle

    shnarkle Active Member

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    The body of Christ, the church, those "called out", is Israel. You're reference from Colossians is misapplied. Let's look at the context, and what Paul is actually referring to.

    The only ordinances that were against us are those that dealt with transgressions of God's law. This is an explicit reference to Deuteronomy 31:26.

    God's law was "for" our benefit, e.g. "The Sabbath was made FOR man...etc." When one transgressed God's law, restitution and sacrifice were the only remedy. The sacrificial system pointed to Christ's sacrifice which Paul refers to as being nailed to his cross.

    The verb "is" was added by translators. It is nowhere to be found in the manuscripts. In context, it is clear that it is the church(i.e."the body of Christ") that is to judge, rather than the aforementioned "man". Look at the entire chapter to see how this is a recurring theme. Notice also that the man judging is in reference to what they're eating and drinking as well as their "regard" or "respect" for holy days, new moons and sabbaths. This word "respect" literally means "taking part; participation". This should not be confused with any sense of disregard, or disrespect. Note also that they "are" (present tense), rather than "were" (past).

    Christ reigns in the hearts of those who love him today. They no longer require temples of stone as they worship in spirit and truth. Sadly, this isn't the case today, but someday all will love God enough to celebrate his feast days.

     
  16. Giuliano

    Giuliano Well-Known Member

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    Sorry, but I don't follow you. The people in Revelation 20:4 are the martyrs beheaded in the persecution in the time of the beast described in Revelation. They are mentioned earlier.

    Revelation 14:13 And I heard a voice from heaven saying unto me, Write, Blessed are the dead which die in the Lord from henceforth: Yea, saith the Spirit, that they may rest from their labours; and their works do follow them.


    Their works are important. Almost immediately after that, we see "wheat" and "grapes" being harvested. These saints are not takers only, they received the Bread and Wine from Jesus -- and now they are willing to give their all just as he did. Jesus talked about people who had the same kind of other that he had -- and who were willing to die if need be:

    Matthew 16:25 For whosoever will save his life shall lose it: and whosoever will lose his life for my sake shall find it.

    Those saints were willing to die as Jesus was in order to help others. I'm not sure who you think they are. You go on then as if Christians today who want to take from Jesus without giving anything back have some advantage -- and that those souls are groaning to have Christians who do nothing have. You also misquote Paul, seriously. It's "we" not "them" who are groaning.

    2 Corinthians 5:4 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life.

    Do not be deceived. While we cannot save ourselves, Jesus came to make it possible that we could be deemed worthy to be saved and given the power to do his works. If we want to take from Jesus without giving anything back, he will reject us -- just the servant who his talent in the earth.

    Jesus expects to get back more from us than he gave.

    Matthew 25:24 Then he which had received the one talent came and said, Lord, I knew thee that thou art an hard man, reaping where thou hast not sown, and gathering where thou hast not strawed:
    25 And I was afraid, and went and hid thy talent in the earth: lo, there thou hast that is thine.
    26 His lord answered and said unto him, Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed:
    27 Thou oughtest therefore to have put my money to the exchangers, and then at my coming I should have received mine own with usury.
    28 Take therefore the talent from him, and give it unto him which hath ten talents.
    29 For unto every one that hath shall be given, and he shall have abundance: but from him that hath not shall be taken away even that which he hath.
    30 And cast ye the unprofitable servant into outer darkness: there shall be weeping and gnashing of teeth.


    He gave to us freely when we could do nothing to help ourselves. He expects us also to give freely.

    Matthew 10:38 And he that taketh not his cross, and followeth after me, is not worthy of me.

    Everybody might want a free ride; but anyone who tells you you don't have to do anything for Jesus is deceiving you. It's a con game.



    I'd advise not trampling on that blood.

    I begin to think you haven't heard it yet. If you heard it and if you believed it, you would know you need to do some things. Someone has seriously misled you to the peril of your soul.

    James 1:21 Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and receive with meekness the engrafted word, which is able to save your souls.
    22 But be ye doers of the word, and not hearers only, deceiving your own selves.
    23 For if any be a hearer of the word, and not a doer, he is like unto a man beholding his natural face in a glass:
    24 For he beholdeth himself, and goeth his way, and straightway forgetteth what manner of man he was.
    25 But whoso looketh into the perfect law of liberty, and continueth therein, he being not a forgetful hearer, but a doer of the work, this man shall be blessed in his deed.
    26 If any man among you seem to be religious, and bridleth not his tongue, but deceiveth his own heart, this man's religion is vain.


    Some people say they believe, but their actions show they don't. If someone truly believes in Jesus, then he must take what Jesus said to heart. We cannot say, "Lord, lord," and then go our merry way, thinking we will receive eternal life.

    Matthew 7:21 Not every one that saith unto me, Lord, Lord, shall enter into the kingdom of heaven; but he that doeth the will of my Father which is in heaven.

    Jesus made it possible for us to do the will of the Father; and if we don't, there is no excuse for us. Someone has taught you things that could lead you to destruction. Salvation was given freely. We couldn't buy it; but Jesus expects us to do some things too.

    I won't cite the entire parable of the talents here; but Jesus rewards his faithful servants in it saying, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant: thou hast been faithful over a few things, I will make thee ruler over many things: enter thou into the joy of thy lord."

    Compare that to the verse in Revelation you quoted.

    Revelation 20:4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.

    Let us not say Jesus did it all. Desire earnestly to hear him say to you, "Well done, thou good and faithful servant." Be afraid that he might say to you if you're lazy, "Thou wicked and slothful servant, thou knewest that I reap where I sowed not, and gather where I have not strawed. . . ."
     
  17. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    There are people being staked up on the cross right now.
    What do you believe He was referring to as being [email protected]
     
    Last edited: Aug 21, 2019
  18. VictoryinJesus

    VictoryinJesus Well-Known Member

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    Agreed with much of what you shared above. But I definitely struggle with that parable. Do you believe God reaps where He sowed not and gathers where He has not strawed?
     
  19. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    His yoke is light,
    He’s not a hard task master
     
  20. Waiting on him

    Waiting on him Well-Known Member

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    But the mosaic law... that’s a hard task master.
     
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