John 3:16 in relation to the grace gospel
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Agreed. God tried different ways to get to man, and ultimately the best and last revelation is Jesus. This is why I don't really believe that revelation is progressive, or I should say, has been progressive since His resurrection and Paul's message of grace and not works of The Law. I find that as we try to become more and more enlightened, we seem only to create more problems: The Word of Faith movement, the assumption of Mary, Faith/Belief only movement, etc.
Not everything in a previous covenant was carried over to the next....but some things always were, or maybe something was made better --- but previous covenants were never totally abolished.
In the above Kingdom, you're talking about the New Jerusalem. The literal Kingdom that will be set up on the new earth. (at the end of time).
Not sure what all the above "movements" are, but I do believe the scripture is plain and should not be messed with too much. I do believe that not all of the O.T. is written under the inspiration of God but of man. This is why it seems many times that God is being blamed for things He did not do...like creating evil or chaos in Isaiah 45:7 Man of that time attributed everything to God.
Jesus spoke very little about being saved, or salvation. He spoke a great deal about the Kingdom of God --- not the future Kingdom on earth, but the spiritual Kingdom He wanted to be on earth now. The kingdom being within us just means that He wished to have a true Kingdom here in the spiritual sense...that all these persons that would belong to His Kingdom would find it and treasure it and be a part of it and thus make the world a better place.
Jesus even taught us how to behave and be in Mathew 5:3-9
He wants us to be different and to make a change in the world.
Some would say He failed at this...I believe it happened but in too small a scale.
Why? Because many claim to be Christian but their behavior says otherwise.
I feel that we should be affecting the world more.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
It takes a great deal of research to understand Christianity. Bible study, theology, history of all sorts, Knowledge of the biblical languages, culture, and time periods, even archaeology. It is not just the knowledge of Judaism and Christianity, it also the empires that interacted with
and influenced them. I have spent my life doing all of this, but one of the miracles that I have come to know is the cognoscente spiritual sense
of women and their ability to understand the Spirit of Christianity. The Holy Bible was written in a culture and time period that is near to being alien to us. So for that reason and many others it is not an easy thing to understand. I have spent my life in research just to realize that facts
are important but they are history. What matters most is loving God and relating to the religion and how to apply it. And as it is, women tend
to be better at that then men. For that reason I do not believe that Christ intended for Christianity to be male dominate. As in a marriage the
two persons can make a better person.
and influenced them. I have spent my life doing all of this, but one of the miracles that I have come to know is the cognoscente spiritual sense
of women and their ability to understand the Spirit of Christianity. The Holy Bible was written in a culture and time period that is near to being alien to us. So for that reason and many others it is not an easy thing to understand. I have spent my life in research just to realize that facts
are important but they are history. What matters most is loving God and relating to the religion and how to apply it. And as it is, women tend
to be better at that then men. For that reason I do not believe that Christ intended for Christianity to be male dominate. As in a marriage the
two persons can make a better person.
Interesting post.
I tend to agree with you.
Jesus spoke to women when the men of that time did not.
In fact, you must surely know that women were more respected at the time of Moses than at the time of Jesus.
Jesus broke all the barriers and accepted women within His inner circle.
But, my question is this, then why did He choose only men to be Apostles?
Just wondering.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Well, you said a mouthful...thank you. I am amazed that people can bring up ten topics in a sentience. I could do a month long
seminar on what you just brought up. The social-religious status of women have fluctuated throughout history. Before Moses it
depended on the culture. After Moses within the group that some call Hebrew-Israelite-Jews...women were property. First property of
their fathers and then to their husbands. A man may have 10 wives and 10 concubines. Wives had more rights and social- religious
status. The first Christian were still Jews...so that continued. When the Gentiles took the reins of the church, women were part of the
church functions...house churches. That eventually went away but continued to fluctuate. There is a lot to this but the Catholics and
Protestants are both to blame for keeping women down. It has not been until recently that we see women preachers.
The study of Christianity is not always that plane...sometimes it is the indirect evidence that is significant. For example if Joseph was
not Christ's father then His bloodline to David was through Mary. The Savior of the world could have appeared on a hill, but He was
delivered through a woman. Christ was anointed several times...this is a big thing...Messiah means anointed. Anointing occurred in the
Old Testament and it was always done by a male religious leader. Christ was only anointed by women. Men did not finance Christ's
ministry...the women that followed him did. They were part of a religious group. The announcement of Christ's Resurrection is more
important then most people know and it was a woman that did that. While the Apostle were cowering away in hiding, the women were
at the Cross with Christ. They were in danger, the Romans could have had all kinds of fun with them. Sometimes people get lost in
the scriptures, not seeing the forest for the trees. God Bless and enjoy.
seminar on what you just brought up. The social-religious status of women have fluctuated throughout history. Before Moses it
depended on the culture. After Moses within the group that some call Hebrew-Israelite-Jews...women were property. First property of
their fathers and then to their husbands. A man may have 10 wives and 10 concubines. Wives had more rights and social- religious
status. The first Christian were still Jews...so that continued. When the Gentiles took the reins of the church, women were part of the
church functions...house churches. That eventually went away but continued to fluctuate. There is a lot to this but the Catholics and
Protestants are both to blame for keeping women down. It has not been until recently that we see women preachers.
The study of Christianity is not always that plane...sometimes it is the indirect evidence that is significant. For example if Joseph was
not Christ's father then His bloodline to David was through Mary. The Savior of the world could have appeared on a hill, but He was
delivered through a woman. Christ was anointed several times...this is a big thing...Messiah means anointed. Anointing occurred in the
Old Testament and it was always done by a male religious leader. Christ was only anointed by women. Men did not finance Christ's
ministry...the women that followed him did. They were part of a religious group. The announcement of Christ's Resurrection is more
important then most people know and it was a woman that did that. While the Apostle were cowering away in hiding, the women were
at the Cross with Christ. They were in danger, the Romans could have had all kinds of fun with them. Sometimes people get lost in
the scriptures, not seeing the forest for the trees. God Bless and enjoy.
The ritual of ""REPENTANCE"" is not required under grace. If a person reaches out to the work of Jesus on the cross they are acknowledging their sins of the flesh and it is a continuous attitude of the heart. An act of repentance is just a ritual and does not show that a person acknowledges that they sin in the flesh """ALL"" the time. I believe that for a person to place their faith in a ritual of repentance is to say Jesus did not pay for their sins on the cross. Paul does not teach that salvation is obtained by Jesus' work on the cross AND a person's ritual of repentance. Under grace salvation is given through Faith (believing, trusting, having confidence) in Jesus' work on the cross + nothing.
By the way, Luke does not teach grace. In Luke he is teaching the condemnation of the law. If that is what people wish then realize that to go under law is a refusal of grace.
By the way, Luke does not teach grace. In Luke he is teaching the condemnation of the law. If that is what people wish then realize that to go under law is a refusal of grace.
There are plenty of web sites that tell about studying the scriptures and understanding that God has dealt with mankind in different ways through the ages. ("DISPENSATIONS" = AGES) Those that oppose it are those that want to blend how God dealt with the Jews under the law into how God is dealing with the Gentiles and Jews today under grace.
Plain and simple..
Plain and simple..
NO !!!, under grace Jesus (God) paid for all the sins of mankind. this was not true until Jesus shed His blood on the cross. Some people just want to blend God's mercy in the past to be the same as grace.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Sorry, GodsGrace...I did not answer your question. ...then why did He choose only men to be Apostles? Well, you have a mind...
congratulations! Another huge topic. I hope this does not sound like a cop out. As it is I have explained the evidence that females
were important to the whole messiahship and ministry. Then in the end, if you look and read the Gospels closely you will read that
the Apostles really did not believe, even when He presented Himself to them, their first thought was that He was a ghost. They did
not go to the tomb to check, because they did not believe He would resurrect. Even as He ascended to Heaven, the Gospel indicates
that some had doubts. The women that followed Christ, you can call them what you want, but with them was His Mother and she
knew who and what He was and these women did too. That kind of knowledge gives you rock solid courage and that is why they were
at the Cross and the Tomb. (I am skipping over a lot of information here.) Read Hebrews carefully from start to finish. You will find
that Christ was made a High Priest, but not a Jewish High Priest. He was made a High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek. I will tell you
He was anointed to that position by women that had the authority to do that. Of course there is more to it. The book is called Hebrews
but the word Hebrew does not appear in the book and there are codes that we can touch on that later.
The New Testament was written by men, about men and there appeared to be some hostilities between the women, including Christ's
Mother and the Apostles. There are several factors that point to this. There is a disagreement at Pentecost and then the women
disappear completely from the New Testament. Other books outside the canon and other writing and traditions suggest this.
Mary Magdalene is referred to as the Apostle to the Apostles in these writings. I am not the only one researching this.
Christ and the woman at the well...Christ used a women as a minster to the Samaritans, when He knew the men had too many biases
to get the job done. I also contend that these women were with Christ before He picked His Apostles.
There is a lot more information, if your interested... God Bless
congratulations! Another huge topic. I hope this does not sound like a cop out. As it is I have explained the evidence that females
were important to the whole messiahship and ministry. Then in the end, if you look and read the Gospels closely you will read that
the Apostles really did not believe, even when He presented Himself to them, their first thought was that He was a ghost. They did
not go to the tomb to check, because they did not believe He would resurrect. Even as He ascended to Heaven, the Gospel indicates
that some had doubts. The women that followed Christ, you can call them what you want, but with them was His Mother and she
knew who and what He was and these women did too. That kind of knowledge gives you rock solid courage and that is why they were
at the Cross and the Tomb. (I am skipping over a lot of information here.) Read Hebrews carefully from start to finish. You will find
that Christ was made a High Priest, but not a Jewish High Priest. He was made a High Priest of the Order of Melchizedek. I will tell you
He was anointed to that position by women that had the authority to do that. Of course there is more to it. The book is called Hebrews
but the word Hebrew does not appear in the book and there are codes that we can touch on that later.
The New Testament was written by men, about men and there appeared to be some hostilities between the women, including Christ's
Mother and the Apostles. There are several factors that point to this. There is a disagreement at Pentecost and then the women
disappear completely from the New Testament. Other books outside the canon and other writing and traditions suggest this.
Mary Magdalene is referred to as the Apostle to the Apostles in these writings. I am not the only one researching this.
Christ and the woman at the well...Christ used a women as a minster to the Samaritans, when He knew the men had too many biases
to get the job done. I also contend that these women were with Christ before He picked His Apostles.
There is a lot more information, if your interested... God Bless
That is incorrect. The Gospel of John is all about being saved and salvation. John chapter 3 (the title of this thread, even the the OP is mistaken) is a good place to start. The parable of the Prodigal Son, the Lost Sheep, the Lost Coin are all about being lost and saved.
I didn't say Jesus did not speak about salvation.
I said He spoke only 4 or 5 times about salvation
but about 100 times about the Kingdom of God.
The entire N.T. can be said to be about salvation.
I'm saying that Jesus did not put forth the idea of "being saved" as we understand it today.
If you need a link, I will search for one.
Oh my. I almost missed this very long post.
Please use the quotes feature or your replies will not be seen.
Just press the "reply" button on the lower right hand corner of the post you wish to answer.
Will get back to this in a little while.
Must go now.
It's OK if you don't care to discuss this...
But I had done a study on it about two years ago and it happens to be true.
Jesus spoke mainly about the Kingdom of God here on earth...which was what He intended to do.
He also spoke of salvation as in John 3:3, 5 but not many times.
It would be interesting if you had time to study this a little. It was interesting and made me get a new perspective on salvation.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
Enoch your missing a very key point here. Saved and Salvation are certainly part of the Gospels, but not mentioned as much as you would
think, for a very good reason. If He said to the Jews that He could save them, they would say, from what. The Jews in this time period did not
believe in the devil or hell and were not promised heaven. In fact most of them did not even believe in angels. If Christ were talking to Jews
and proposed that He could save them, they would probably stone Him right there. But the concept is certainly there. For them Christ is going
to focus on the kingdom of god or kingdom of heaven because their prophecies are looking for a human king. If you look into the history of
it the Jews, they had many perspective messiahs, before Christ and they were human. But as far as His ministry, He focused on a kingdom because that is what the Jews would relate to.
think, for a very good reason. If He said to the Jews that He could save them, they would say, from what. The Jews in this time period did not
believe in the devil or hell and were not promised heaven. In fact most of them did not even believe in angels. If Christ were talking to Jews
and proposed that He could save them, they would probably stone Him right there. But the concept is certainly there. For them Christ is going
to focus on the kingdom of god or kingdom of heaven because their prophecies are looking for a human king. If you look into the history of
it the Jews, they had many perspective messiahs, before Christ and they were human. But as far as His ministry, He focused on a kingdom because that is what the Jews would relate to.
You seem to have forgotten that salvation is synonymous with the New Birth, and the New Birth is synonymous with entrance into the Kingdom of God (John 3). Therefore every reference to the Kingdom of God by Christ was indeed a reference to salvation! So there goes your theory.
Grailhunter
Well-Known Member
bbyrd009
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Not even very close to true, sorry.
Really a complete denial of much of the rest of Christ's recorded Words even, right?
You don't know what you're talking about, and what's more you know that you don't know, i think
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